Trista Harris: "Shaping Tomorrow: Futurist Trista Harris on Climate Action, Racial Equity, and Sustainable Cities"

There are 25 companies that are responsible for 50% of the carbon in the environment.

I'm just going to pause here. Yeah. Minute of silence.

Those people could fit around a conference table.

Welcome to the Driving Impact podcast, where we speak with leading experts about the most pressing topics of our time. We are excited to have you join us as we dig deep into bold innovations and ideas from today's leading scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, and changemakers from diverse fields. I am Katheline Jean-Pierre, your host, who will guide you on this journey. Welcome to the Driving Impact podcast. Today we're with Trista Harris, who's a global futurist, also a trend sensor. She's also the author of two books. One of them is Future Goods, and what it talks about is how to use futurism to save the world. Welcome to a podcast. I'm excited to talk to you about different topics around trends, sustainability, social and corporate governance.

Katheline, I'm so excited to be here with you today and excited to have this conversation.

I feel like it's a privilege because we're together on Black Women on Boards.

Yes.

And we're also part of Wonder Woman Dinners where we're building community.

I love it. With so many intersections. So this should be a ton of fun.

First question I have for you, I wanted to start with a fun fact. You ended up on the island of a billionaire.

I did.

How did it happen? Who was the billionaire? Where's the island?

It is, it is a crazy series of events. My friend says that I Ferris Bueller'd my way onto Necker Island, which is, um, Richard Branson's private island in the U.S. Virgin Islands. And it was a crazy series of events where I received a fellowship. There is a foundation in Minnesota called the Bush Foundation, and during that fellowship process, they said, who would you like to network with over the course of this fellowship. And I'm a really great networker. If I want to talk to somebody, I know how to do it. I said, I need to pick somebody that is so hard that I know that I've been able to create this because of this unique experience of this fellowship. And so most of the other folks in my cohort were like, I'd like to talk to this professor at the University of Minnesota, or there's somebody at Stanford. And I said, Richard Branson. And people were like, I do not have a Richard Branson connection for you. And What I was drawn to is he's a really unique model of philanthropy that is about solving some of the toughest problems that exist. He's got a larger-than-life personality, and he's really leveraged his companies to try to move his mission to make the world a better place forward. And I wanted to hear why and how, and how he could encourage other people to do that.

And you wanted to be part of, like, understand his process, his thinking process, trying to learn as much as I could about the future of philanthropy.

And I felt like this is the future of philanthropy. And so let me learn from a person that's creating it. Um, and so I, you know, tried and reached out to their foundation and just did not have good access. And then he was speaking at a philanthropy conference that I had a lot of connections. And because when you set a goal and people are excited about your goal and they're behind you, I got probably 10 phone calls that were like, you want to talk to him? He's going to speak at the conference. This is your big chance. And so I reached out to the organization that I knew really well And I said, I am planning to interview Richard Branson at your conference. I wanna make sure I don't interfere with your time schedule. So just let me know how to do that. And the person that I reached out to reached back out to me and we had a quick conversation. He said, who have you been talking to? And I said, well, I reached out to his foundation. He's like, his foundation doesn't do his scheduling. And immediately he knew that I was full of it. And so I was so embarrassed. He was like, call me back when you have a like actual plan.

Oh my gosh.

And I was like, I'm so humiliated. These people know me and this is so embarrassing.

I mean, at least you were trying.

I, for sure. And I had a really great coach and she was like, he's on social media. Make the case on social media that he should let you interview him. And I was like, that is, I'm already so embarrassed. That is too embarrassing. So what I did instead is I wrote up a case for why I was the right person to interview him about his philanthropy. I had talked about who else I had interviewed in his network and what my expertise was in the field. And I sent it to the person that knew that I was full of it and their boss.

Okay.

Their boss did not know I was full of it. And so their boss forwarded it to, um, Richard's PR folks and they said, sure, she can have 15 minutes.

15 minutes.

Mm-hmm. And so I got to interview him at the conference. It was amazing. And, um, at the end I was really disappointed and I couldn't figure out why. You set a big goal. Yeah. And then I, you decided to dream big and go for, and then I accomplished something that felt impossible and I was like, why am I so disappointed? It was a great interview. I got the sort of answers that I wanted and I realized that in my head, I felt like the interview was happening at Necker Island because when I was 16, I saw MTV Cribs Mariah Carey, which I love it, which took place on Necker Island. And I was like, that is the coolest place I've ever seen. And so I was like, the disappointment was because I was not in this very special space.

So you wanted to be on this island that you had a perception that was this magical space.

Yeah.

And it was also like a long, long life dream.

Yes. For sure. And so I'm like, you can't, that's like very first world problems to be like sad that you didn't do the interview on Necker Island. And so I just wanted to sort of let it go, but it still was sort of nagging. And about 2 months later, I got an invitation to a conference that was about making the future a better place that was happening at Necker Island. Wow.

What was that conference?

It was through Singularity University. And so they do a lot of futurism training for executives. I had done a lot of training with them, and so I saw it and I was like, I think this is it. So I reached out to the convener and I said, I've just interviewed Richard Branson about his philanthropy. I'd love to come to the conference. And they said, we'd love to have you speak. And so it was—

you send that? Mhm.

And so it was, it was expensive to go to the conference, but I had this fellowship and they discounted my rate because I was going to be a speaker. And so then I was able to go and I had an amazing experience. I learned so much from him and how he thinks about his philanthropy and how he does his work overall and how he thinks about living, which is very different than— he's a very, um, A very fun person that like lives life all the way. And I learned a ton from that. And then I've been back since then. I'm going back next year. There is a group of people that convene often and are really trying to think about how to solve some of the world's toughest problems. So it's been a real gift to not just get to know him in this amazing place that's full of like lemurs and flamingos and giant tortoises and a windmill. It's, you know, like it's the sort of place of dreams and imagination.

It's like a world within a world.

For sure. But to really be able to meet the community that he's been building in that space of people that are really trying to solve tough problems. And that's the space that I want to be in.

And how long did you stay when you were on this island?

4 or 5 days each time.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. And there's lodging and—

Yep. It is the nicest place I've ever stayed my entire life. It's lovely.

Oh, this is so exciting. I think that's amazing. Fun fact to set us up for the conversation for today, for sure. Before we get started in the thick of things, I wanted to make sure that I understand what brought you to have a career as a global futurist, as a philanthropist. Did you have any signs or moments or that helps you identify that's what you wanted to do for a living?

Yeah, I've, I've worked in nonprofits and foundations since I was 14. That has always been my career path. I knew probably when I was 7 or 8 that that's what I wanted to do. My friends would draw pictures of Barbie dreamhouses and I would draw pictures of community centers that would have zoos and a slide and art programs and those sorts of things. And a lot of that was— my mom volunteered for a community theater that was in a community center. And so I'd spend a lot of time there and just really loved the way that they were making people's lives better. And I knew that I wanted to work someplace that was making people's lives better. And so worked in the social sector, and then I ran a foundation, and I was 29 years old, super excited to have my first—

What was the foundation?

The Headwaters Foundation for Justice, which is based in Minneapolis.

Okay.

And they do amazing work, and I felt like it was such a gift to be so early in my career and be running this phenomenal organization that was making the world a better place. And a couple months into the job, the stock market collapsed. This was 2008.

Oh, wow.

Foundations have endowments that are invested, and our endowment lost between 30% to 50% of its value during that time, which is not a great place to be as a foundation. And I thought we might shut down.

And just to simplify it for the rest of the audience, an endowment is a vehicle that you receive grants from.

Yep, it is. It's sort of an investment account. And the interest from that account is what you use to make grants. And because we had lost so much value, we didn't have dollars to give for grants. We'd overcommitted what we said we could give away. And then we didn't have resources to do it.

Because of the crisis.

And at that same time, my son, who is a gigantic strapping 19-year-old now, was a toddler. And there was a bookstore in the Twin Cities that is called Wild Rumpus Books. And it has wild animal— not wild, but it has animals running around. There's chickens, bunnies, cats, dogs, parrots. It's like a toddler's paradise. So he didn't want to leave. So we're in this bookstore and there is one full-size chair. The rest are kid-sized chairs. That's like school conferences where they're all teeny. One full-size chair. A pile of books that other parents have left as they're sort of trapped in this children's paradise. So I'm digging through the pile and one of the books is called Flash Foresight and it's about how to use futurism to get a business advantage during times of crisis.

Wow, Flash Foresight.

And I was like, this is a time of crisis. And so as I was sitting there, I read it from front to back and realized that the tools of futurism were exactly what my grantees needed to get through this crisis. And so we started bringing those tools to our grantees.

It's incredible how you just personal moment with your son. Yeah, right. Brought you to discover your path and, and understand that new trail.

You just never know when you're going to run into the opportunity that's solving the problem that you're facing. And if you're really open to solutions, they can show up anywhere. And so those tools helped us work with grantees to develop a picture of the future that they wanted to create out of this crisis. And as a result of that, in the following couple of years, they had 10 legislative wins, which was the most in our organization's history, um, because they were able to develop a picture of the future that what they wanted to create and, and move towards that. So that really lit the spark in me to learn as much as I could about futurism and then translate it for people that work in the social sector. So usually foundations, nonprofits, also some social purpose businesses. So when businesses are working to try to make the world a better place, the tools that we use are also helpful for them as well.

Can you give us an example of an organization that you've helped through the tools of futurism?

I've done a lot of work with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. I was their futurist in residence for 3 years.

Okay.

They They're the largest health foundation in the world. And so they are interested in, um, using their grants to make sure that people are healthier and that there is more equitable health across the country. So I worked there during the pandemic. So to be 2020. Yep. So to be at a foundation that is literally trying to be on the front end of stemming one of the biggest crises of our lifetime, um, was a really, yeah.

What did it look like in terms of it's 2020? Right. There's this all about health. And what was the problem to solve, the biggest problem at the time? And then how did you collaboratively solve it?

I was a part of their Pioneering Ideas team, which uses a futurism frame for their work. So what they're trying to fund is things that might be useful 10 years in the future. So the rest of the foundation is working on problems right now. The Pioneering Ideas team is really trying to look ahead to what might be important in the future. And so when the pandemic started, there were grantees that the Pioneering Ideas team had funded previously that were going to be really important to the pandemic. So a couple of my favorites were ones that were working on contact tracing.

Okay.

So they had funded some grants that were about STD contact tracing, and then those organizations were really well positioned to be able to help during the pandemic.

So it's the same technology that was leveraged to follow and track the COVID spreading? Mm-hmm.

So who have you had contact with? And then the other was an organization called Studio Elsewhere that created these employee break rooms and hospitals that created these nature scenes that were projected on the wall, and they brought in natural plants and smells that lowered the stress level of people that worked in hospitals and huge crises in New York City because everybody was like under a lot of pressure, so much burnout, and people just were quitting right and left because it was too much.

Yeah.

And so Studio Elsewhere created these experiences where healthcare workers could step away for 15 minutes, created better health outcomes for the healthcare workers and for their patients and lowered stress levels so that people were able to stay longer in the field.

Wow, I think that's amazing. What are the tools that you leverage to be able to predict and create the future as part of your core role?

For sure. So we do a lot of trend sensing, which is paying attention to things that are happening in the present that are giving you an idea of what the future would look like.

So that's very different from trend setting. So yes, trend sensing, you're noticing. Yeah, you're noticing. So give us an example of what are you noticing?

Yeah.

And, and what are the tools to, to be able to be aware of what's happening? For sure.

In the world, uh, a couple different ways. So if you are interested in the future of something, future of early childhood education, future of transportation, set a Google alert for future of that thing that you care about.

Mm-hmm.

And what you have then is a constant stream of information about what might come next. And I, I encourage people to spend spend about 2 hours a week thinking about the future, regardless of what your role is. And during that time, read those things that are coming up in your Google Alerts, read newsletters of really innovative organizations. But what you're asking yourself is, what does this mean for me and the work and things that I care about? And write notes for yourself. Yeah. And what that helps you to do is start to, to pick out things that are happening and pay attention to what the future might bring so that it isn't a surprise when it happens.

So that's— and that's your 5% rule. So basically spend 5% of your time like learning about a sector that you're passionate about to be able to eventually like train your brain to understand the trends, but also build a knowledge base very much in, in that sector. So that's one of the ways that you're able to predict and sense the future. But you also have a couple of frameworks like backcasting.

Yes.

What is that?

Backcasting is a tool where instead of waiting to see what the future might bring, you decide what you'd like the future to look like. So, um, my company Future Good works with, um, foundations and nonprofits and social purpose businesses, and we help them imagine 50 years in the future.

Mm-hmm.

If you were fully successful in meeting your mission, what would be different in the world? And what would your organization have to look like for that future to be true? So what you're doing is you're creating a space where your staff, board, volunteers, partners, people that care about your work are developing the same picture of what the future looks like. I think the challenge in many organizations is everybody's working so hard, but on a very different vision of the future.

Yeah, there's a lack of alignment. Everybody has their own goals. So what does it look like in terms of having a backcasting session?

So in those sessions, we do them on Zoom or we do them in person. And on Zoom, what we have folks do is brainstorm. If it was 50 years in the future, there was no barriers, money wasn't an issue, policy wasn't an issue, what would be the impact of your work in your highest hopes? So we have them in a Google Doc and they're brainstorming one idea per bullet point, and then we break them into breakout groups using a design thinking process where those ideas start to get bunched. So things that are similar get pulled together and we sort of name what those, those big ideas are. And then we ask them to pick what are your 5 favorite So as you look at this big list of possibilities, what are the ones that you're really excited about? And we're very general in this idea of favorite. Favorite just means the one that you like. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

So it's which one you like. It's not about feasibility. So are you in the size of logic or are you still in the creative flow?

Yep. It's, it's about understanding where there is energy around creating that future. And through that, we create these ideal future statements that sort of describe what that future state looks like. And then we work with them to make sure it— does this feel ambitious enough? Does this feel far enough in the future like you are really doing different work that is a stretch from what you're doing right now in this time? And then what we ask them to do is to work backwards and say, what are you doing right now that will lead directly to this future? What are you doing that makes this future impossible? So many organizations are doing things that are not aligned with that vision of the ideal future, so stop doing them. They're not helping you get there, free up that space for more of those activities at will. And then the trick of it is it does not take 50 years to get to that ideal future. It's usually 5 to 7 years for our clients.

So 5 to 7 years to be able to change the future.

Yes.

And are you talking about sustainability and environmental types of impacts or—

It depends on the organization. So we work with organizations that are working on almost any issue that you can think of. Folks are working on the well-being of children. We're working with people that are working on the future of water, how to ensure that we have a sustainable water system, people that are working on climate change, or very specific neighborhoods and trying to create a better future for those neighborhoods. And so that idea of creating the picture allows them to know what they're working towards. And then it happens so quickly because suddenly all of the force in an organization is pushed in the same direction.

Mm-hmm.

We help them develop a strategy screen, which is a set of questions that they can use anytime they're making a decision. To determine is it aligned with the future that we've laid out or not? And that's what really helps an organization move forward quickly.

And helps them transform to align, to be able to change the future.

Yeah.

So we talked about backcasting. Like, you also have a tool that's called WOW.

Yes. Yes. So WOW is a tool to help you sort of notice things that are happening in the present that might be important for the future. And so WOW stands for weird, opposite, or wonderful.

What's weird, opposite, and wonderful?

So if something is weird, it's just very unexpected. So an example of this is, um, Jeff Bezos is talking about using the moon as a place to do manufacturing and that Earth should become a nature preserve. That is a weird idea.

It's a weird idea.

Yeah. And it's—

how are we going to get there?

How does that work?

How many people are going to go there?

Yes. What does that mean and how would we do that? And it just So that's the weird of the wow. Yes. And then— Yep. Opposite is opposite of what you would expect. So one of the opposite trends that we're watching now is support for racial justice organizing and racial justice-focused organizations was increasing on a clear trajectory. That is now going backwards.

What does that mean, increasing in a clear trajectory?

So more and more support over time. So as we work as a society, society to become more equitable, as there's more attention paid to racial justice issues, it makes sense that people are providing more financial support for that work. But we have seen in the last year and a half to 2 years a full pulling back on that support in a lot of different ways. That is the opposite of what we would expect. And so it's important to pay attention to it to figure out what it means so that we can change that trend back to where it was going. And then wonderful are things that are just wonderful. As soon as you hear it, you're like, oh, that's great. I'm like, that's the kind of future that I want to live in.

Like what?

Um, I just saw an example of a, a bus stop that the back of it was made out of moss, and that moss pulled as much carbon out of the air as 275 trees. Oh wow. And I was like, that's wonderful. That's wonderful.

I was like, that, that's full of wonder. Yes. It's good for the environment.

For sure. You can immediately see the positive impact that it's gonna have. And those are the ideas that you need to pay attention to. How do we have more of those wonderful things? How do we invest in ideas like that to make sure that it spreads, that every bus stop around the country has this moss background? How much does it cost to do that?

How does it? And then how can we spread it further?

How do we make it sustainable? Could that be what the side of office buildings are made out of? How do we—

How could we have it everywhere?

Yes. How do we capture carbon in that way that makes our cities healthier?

Yeah, I love the WOW framework, but I also love the three examples. I want to look at first the Bezos example around how do we move manufacturing to the moon? Like, how does one does that? If you had to solve that problem, what would you do?

I would not because that is way above my pay grade. But what I think is interesting about it is that the person that owns the company that is responsible for the spread of a gazillion products to our front doors all the time is really interested in what does that mean for the future of our environment? And if somebody like that is saying, when I see the trajectory of my company and the destructive nature that it's going to have on our environment, the only way to solve that problem is to move manufacturing to the moon, that, that tells me a lot about what it means that we're hitting a wall.

There's a problem. Yeah, it's a bigger problem, and there's an elephant in the room. And the moon— and saying that the moon is the solution Right. Is a bit scary.

Right, right.

So what's behind it all?

Yeah. Probably profits is my, is my assumption always. But I think it's interesting because it means that people that are responsible for much of the climate change are also understanding the impact that it's gonna have, which is a better place than I think we've been in the past. And so it means that there might be energy around solutions that may not involve the moon, that might not have happened previously. So to me, that is a really hopeful statement. Yeah, that we are ready to do something drastically different, even so drastic of moving manufacturing to the moon.

But if we take a step back, because it's like, it looks, it sounds like a far-fetched idea. Sure. What is the fundamental problem that we're trying to solve? Is that too much manufacturing or it's not sustainable?

It's the pollution on our environment.

Okay.

And so that the pollution is then making the planet unlivable is what's very quickly happening. Um, and so we have to address that problem in a very, um, systematic way, more intensely than we ever have previously, where the previous attitude was like, climate change is a problem and my little piece isn't making that big of a difference, and so I'm not going to worry about it.

It's the ostrich syndrome. Yeah, it sounds— it feels for the common mortal seems so daunting, and everybody's so busy, like, in their day-to-day that it's like, I don't understand it. And we'll talk a bit more about it today. Yeah, like, I don't understand it. I don't know what is my power within the grand scheme of things, so I'm just gonna put my head in the sand and just forget about this problem and hope that somebody somewhere is solving— yeah, the problem.

And we've hit the point where we can't do that, you know, with the fires on Maui and with all of the flooding that's happened around the world and hurricanes that are happening when it isn't hurricane season.

This year has been a big of floods, for sure, of heat waves, of fires. And yeah, and where are we in the continuum? Are we like— still a lot of room to be able to turn around the trajectory, or so? Are we—

I think that we have, we have missed the window that's been talked about for decades.

What was the window?

The, the window was how do we hit before the point of no return when it comes to carbon in the environment. So you hit this point where there is so much carbon in the environment of course it is going to impact the climate.

And the part that we're at now where we, we actually need completely different solutions, a bit more like different solutions, like more drastic solutions, just because more, more drastic.

And there are 25 companies that are responsible for 50% of the carbon in the environment. 25 CEOs.

I'm just, I'm just gonna pause here. Yeah, minute of silence for sure. So what you're saying is that the problem of global warming and climate change, just 25 companies, right, that are contributing to half of our problems?

Yes.

Globally?

Yes. And so those people could fit around a conference table. I mean, this is not, this is not about is Tristel recycling enough. That is not the solution to this problem. It is those 25 CEOs making the decision that we need to move forward differently. And it is us as people in society needing to say, you are not allowed to cause humanity's distinct extinction, um, by your profit margin. So your sort of decision that profit is more important than this literally being a planet that we can live on—

I mean, where is your profit going to live if there's no more planet?

For sure.

So I think just to pause on that for a double click on, on the 25 CEOs. The question is, are they meeting, or do we have any decisions being made during the Davos or all the different conversations globally to be able to turn around that trajectory? And I Googled that list of 25 companies, and they seem to all follow a certain profile.

Yeah, most, most are oil companies and energy companies. And so what we have to make a decision on is not about individuals and what they're doing. It's the choices that consumers have. So if every single company that makes cars said we are only making electric cars, then consumers could only buy electric cars.

Yeah, and that would be a drastic— so we talked about the drastic measures, like if instead of waiting to 2030, of giving a 2050, having a mandate of like now all the net new cars that would have to be electric, that would be a game changer. How much would it impact the global warming and turning around the trajectory around?

I think it would make a big difference. I'm not sure about the exact percentage, but when you do that, then it also creates the space to make decisions about other things. So if cars are something that is creating a lot of the global warming, let's start with the, the sort of highest impact things and then move down as we go and continue to, to move us towards a better future. There's also folks that are working on things like carbon capture.

Yeah.

And being able to pull carbon out of the environment. Some are making cement out of it or jet fuel, or we were talking earlier about somebody that creates artificial protein for food out of carbon that's getting pulled out of the environment. So there are amazing solutions that are out there, but it doesn't help if we still continue to shoot carbon into the environment. Yeah. So you have to do both at the same time.

So just to understand the full picture, 50% of the carbon that's emitted in the world is coming from 25 companies. What is the other 50%? So I'm trying to simplify everything for everyone because sometimes people get overwhelmed with all those concepts.

I have a stat for you. So 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global warming. So total, so 100 companies, 70% of global warming, and then the last 30% are, are people in the decisions that we're making based on the choices that consumers have in our current economy. Okay, so the, the real place to make change is with those 100 companies.

Perfect. So to get a full picture, right, there's 100 companies that contribute to 70% of all the carbon emitted in the planet. Yeah, that's number one. And then secondly, as part of these 100 companies, there's 25 of them, right, that are producing 50% of it, and then the rest, the 30%, is like Yeah, the humans being us making decisions.

Yes.

So when we look at this data and how we frame this problem of carbon and having all this carbon on the planet, and that's changing the ecosystem, which can make the world unlivable, it's causing all the floods and hurricanes and all the problems that we experience in the heat waves, right? The summer we're talking about, this, the summer in LA, sure, it's still warm, but it's, it's a different summer.

Yeah.

So when we look at this full picture how we can drive impact is at the corporate level first and foremost, making those companies change.

And if that's through legislation, whatever that is through to create that difference, that is the place where you create the biggest change. The conversation has only been about consumers, so it is about the individual choices that we make. You should drive less. Are you recycling? What sort of—

that's only 30%. I'm composting, I'm recycling, we move towards electric cars.

And a lot of those choices are probably because it is your only product that's available to you. So in the United States, most of the toothpaste is sold in plastic containers that are not recyclable.

Yeah.

In other countries, they're made out of aluminum that is recyclable. Why have we decided that we won't have a sustainable product and that we don't require it? So if I'm a consumer and it's very difficult for me to buy the product that's more sustainable, it's more expensive.

Mm-hmm.

I may not be able to afford to do that, but if every company is required to make that change, that is where you create the transformation. So even when we say 30% is about individual decisions, it's also about the individual decisions that we're able to have given the environment that we live in.

Because like the products need to be available. Yeah, right. And if they're not available, then how can you—

you can't purchase that, right?

Or you create your own toothpaste. That's a whole different—

right, that's a whole different— yeah, Bolo Wax.

Yeah, I think it's very important, but I think it's also what can we do as individuals, right, to help advocate and evangelize around these 100 companies? What are all the different ways?

Yeah, you need to vote. So that is the most important part. How are you holding your elected officials accountable for making decisions about the climate that's long-term? So for elected officials, they are on a 2-year cycle or a 4-year cycle, and it is about immediate wins that can show a benefit. That is—

that is, they want to be able to renew their term for sure.

We need long-term solutions. And so if we don't have, if we're not asking our elected officials, if it is only about what have you done with my personal tax rate at this very moment, and it isn't about how are we making this planet habitable for our children, they're not gonna be working on those issues.

Yeah.

And so we need to, we need to ask, we need to demand it is really, um, on a global scale.

So this, this means like concretely for every single human being living in a neighborhood. Yeah, getting involved at the city level, at the county level, being interested. Yes, right, in what's happening around. So what are the different forums that people can, can take actions in their, like, locally? Because I want to make sure that we have concrete examples of how people can drive impact and resources. So like, what if you want to be part of the change? What, what do you— what are the 3 things you could do locally?

So one, I think it is about calling your elected official and asking what they're doing about the environment.

Okay.

Um, I think the other piece to ask elected officials is how are you investing to make our city's climate resilient. So a place like Puerto Rico, where the power was completely taken out with Hurricane Maria for months, is allowed by FEMA standards to only rebuild their infrastructure to what it looked like before. It was a terrible infrastructure before.

So that's an opportunity to make it sustainable, green environment.

Why are we not using solar in a place where there's there's so much sunshine.

Yeah.

Why are we not breaking apart the infrastructure so that if the grid goes down, it's only for a small part of a neighborhood instead of for the whole island? We have amazing opportunities to do things differently, but we need to be asking our elected officials to make that change and let them know that it's important to us. Um, the second piece is don't buy from companies that are on this list of 100. And so as you're making decisions about where you're going to spend your dollars. Don't spend it with companies that are making this, this planet unlivable.

Yeah, so we can research this under 100 companies and make educated choices of not supporting these companies.

And then I think the last piece is having a picture of the future that you want to live in. So individually, just as I was talking about how with organizations we're helping them think 50 years in the future, so for yourself, as you look at retirement age or end of your life, What do you, what do you want your impact to be? What's the change that you want to create in the world? And what are you doing right now that makes that future possible? And if you, if you want your environment to look differently, are you planting trees in your yard?

Yeah.

And so there, there's that saying, the best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago.

Yeah.

And the second best time is today.

Yeah.

And so how do we start to make those choices that are not about me in this very moment and how do I benefit, but how are future generations gonna benefit from that as well?

Are you encouraging everyone to vision board and create their future?

Yeah, I think it's really useful to have a picture of the future for you and your impact and the sort of legacy that you want to leave behind. And then what I do is compare that vision with my calendar, which is not always a great activity.

Ooh, that's going to be the shock.

That is where the rubber meets the road, where you say, am I actually investing my time in the sort of things that will get me to the future that I want to see? And there's a lot of work that futurists are doing about how health and improvements in health. And there are some folks that are interested in this idea of humans living forever, which I think is like really boring and exhausting. But some people are very like, how do we hit this point where advanced billionaire was taking his son's blood for that part to live forever?

And, and feels like now he's 18 years old.

Yes.

But this is not like— if we want to save the planet and just forget about our own individual selves, yes, just there's better things to do time, with your time.

Invest your time in a way that creates that future that you want to see. So are you picking up plastics that are at the beach? Are you spending time building community? Are you ready personally if there's a disaster? There was a lot of conversation. There was a hurricane earthquake day that happened in LA a little while ago. And a lot of folks were sort of frantically running to the store to make sure that they had a couple of days' worth of food. And what the sort of emergency officials were like is like, you live in California, you're supposed to have an earthquake kit with at least a few days' worth of food, if not a week's worth of food.

It's a part of the disaster preparedness. Yes.

And so individually, how are we making sure that we have a little bit of resiliency for when these disasters happen? And then how are we making sure that our neighbors are prepared? And what is the community that we're building so that we can and check on people and notice when somebody isn't well, or notice if somebody needs something. That's just what a good community is. And so that you don't— it doesn't— you don't need a disaster for that to happen.

Yeah, no, I think it's very important, um, to have concrete tools to also— if we want to be the change that we want to see in the world. And also, I like the, the idea of like looking at your calendar, looking at your vision board, and then how are they aligned?

Yeah.

Or misaligned? And then deciding to make make some changes, for sure, right? Yesterday I was with my son and there was a local event at the local garden church, and, and they were like, you know, everybody can spend a couple of hours to plant, uh, vegetables and make life a bit more sustainable.

Yes.

So if we go into like the— because you've spent enormous— I mean, this is your day-to-day. Yeah. Predicting the future, right, globally. Yeah. So what are the top 3 trends that you're seeing that are coming towards us?

Yeah, so I— climate change is the biggest, so that is the one that I think needs the most attention. I'm really paying a lot of attention to those innovations that are about solving that at the source. And so if that is pulling carbon out of the environment, if that is changing the ways that people move around cities, or the ability to even need to move around cities, I think the growth of working from home has done wonders for the environment. And people maybe have forgotten because of the trauma of all of it, but at the beginning of the pandemic, um, in Venice there were, uh, dolphins that were in the canals, and in San Francisco there were coyotes that were going across the Golden Gate Bridge. And in my—

because they got their freedom back.

Yes, there was sort of space. And then I have family that's in Wyoming, and every time I go to Wyoming I just stare at the sky because there's a million stars and they're like, "What are you looking at?" I'm like, "I have 3 stars at home. That's it. You guys have a full sky. I can only see 3." And probably about 2 to 3 weeks into the lockdown, I was taking my garbage out at night and I looked up and there was a sky full of stars. And I had always thought that it was light pollution. I sort of lived near a big city and thought that's why I couldn't see. And I realized it was pollution, pollution.

[Speaker:KATHLEEN JEAN-PIERRE] Wow. Do you see more stars in LA or Wyoming? I think it's obvious.

Wyoming. Why? There, there's a joke once that there was a— it actually happened though. There was a blackout in Los Angeles and all these people called 911 because they thought there was a, a gas leak or something was wrong, and it was the Milky Way. Nobody had ever seen it before and it looks so strange in the sky, but they called 911 about it.

So yeah, that tells a lot.

You're not seeing a ton of stars when you were in Los— well, those types of stars when you're in Los Angeles.

It's amazing. My son is always looking at the moon. Yeah, and, uh, it's beautiful when you're a kid and your eyes wide open and you just look, the moon, the moon. Every day he's chasing the moon. And when I think about the future and when I think about, uh, where we're evolving in the world, like, part of the reasons of creating this podcast is, uh, 3 years and a half ago I became a mom, and, and suddenly, and at the same time, George Floyd Floyd happened. I was on maternity leave and, and Breonna Taylor died. And, um, and then I couldn't sleep at night, of course, right? Because I was at— there was George Floyd, and then Breonna Taylor is a Black woman that was shot while she was sleeping.

Yes. And then I was here, I was new mom, and I was like, and then you have this baby to take care of, and that's the world that you're bringing him into.

I was in a new city. LA was a new city for me. And then I couldn't sleep at night because I was afraid that somebody would barge in and, and assassinate me. And all I wanted to do is protect my son.

Yeah.

So one of the trends we, we talked about is the lack of progress or in, in racial equity. So 2020, right, if we go back, George Floyd— everybody was home. Yeah, on lockdown. And then everybody watched the story of George Floyd. And how he was killed. And then suddenly, like, everybody understood the reality or had some sense of the injustice done to people of Black descent, Black people. And all the companies started, like, proclaiming from the high horses that they care about diversity. Of course, some progress was made, but now we're in 2023. Yeah, there's a financial crisis, there's all these different things happening in the world happening. So is there progress in racial— and then affirmative action a couple of months ago, that was all those changes. So are we going forward? Are we going backwards? Like, do we know? Is it too soon to tell? Yeah. And are these part of the trends that you also see?

Yeah, I'm paying a lot of attention to that. And I lived in Minneapolis when George Floyd was murdered. He was murdered about 4 blocks away from my first home, and the police precinct where the officer was from was in the neighborhood that I grew up in. And so, um, the disappointment in civic disasters— so civic disasters are when society's institutions that are supposed to care for you and support you betray you— is a completely different type of disaster than a natural disaster. And the impacts of that ripple on and on and on. And yeah, and so, um, I think during that time in Minneapolis, one, it It's terribly hard to see the city that you love burning down. It is also terribly hard to see white supremacists driving into your city to purposely burn it down, which was a huge piece of what was happening during that time, was people taking advantage of the chaos to create more chaos and to terrorize people of color.

Yeah.

Who were already terrorized within the city. And so, um, I think what comes out of that is visibility of what has existed for people of color always. So it isn't— it is not a surprise that a police officer killed a Black man in front of a crowd of people that was watching.

It was nothing new.

No.

I think the thing— the thing that happened in 2020, I remember I was on mat leave. Everybody started text— texting me, are you okay? And suddenly I was like, it's not a different day for me. It's more that suddenly you are aware of what it takes for me to show up every day. Yes. Right? All those videos that I stopped watching because it gives you trauma.

Of course.

Right. And then you were like very close to the, the scene of, of one of the different things that happened in the whole world. Suddenly became aware of why are we still talking about these and racial equity and, and, and affirmative action.

And, and were aware of what'd been happening in Minneapolis for a long time. I spent a year on our Governor's Council of Law Enforcement and Community Relations after Philando Castile was murdered. Yeah. On Facebook Live.

And that video.

It's terrible. And Philando Castile worked in the lunchroom of my son's preschool. And when we had conversations as a community after this happened, and we said, this is the case where we will finally see justice because he, he was a saint. He worked in the schools. He took good care of the kids. He was a registered gun owner. Um, he was a really standup person. And this happened because the police officer decided that a Black man was scary and murdered him when there was a kid in the backseat behind him. So just the, the lack of care for us as human beings was so evident. The only person that went to jail for Philando Castile's murder were the protesters that closed the freeway. That's who went to jail. The police officer didn't go to jail. And so this sort of understanding that these systems are not made for us. And, um, that became so visible in 2020 because we had the time and the space because we were, you know, at home.

Yeah. And people couldn't do anything to distract ourselves.

So you had to notice. And normally the anger is about the specific officer or policing, but what was really interesting is people had enough time and space to say, actually, it's all broken. It is nonprofits. What are you doing? What's the— what is the racism that exists within your organization's businesses? What do your hiring practices look like? How are you taking care of your employees of color?

How are you educating people? And how are you holding people accountable to make the world a better place, but also to be fair and judge people accordingly?

Yeah. So it, it was a very unique moment. Often in futurism, we talk about different trends that are run into each other. And so we had the trend of the pandemic and all the things that come along with that during a time of racial unrest at the same time, and they, they both amplified each other. And I think that is what created really some of the best systematic change that I have seen in my entire career in the social sector.

But did it stick?

Some of it stuck, some of it did not. And I think what we're running into now, especially with the Supreme Court affirmative action decision, which is only about higher education. It is not about affirmative action overall, but the ripple effect of that decision is people saying, oh wait, we, we can't have a grant program for a specific community of color, we can't pay attention to race as we're looking at our candidate pools for positions. None of that is true, and the intention of these cases is to freeze all action and move us towards a more equitable future. And so our responsibility during this time is not to get get scared and not to stop and sort of wait and see. This is when you double down. Yeah, this is the time where you make big investments. This is the time where you really work to make sure that the change that we have had in these last couple of years is permanent and we build from it, not that we are moving backwards.

And what can we individually do, right, to, to turn around this affirmative action decisions and, and change?

I think for folks within organizations ask questions about what the hiring process looks like. So, paying attention to candidate race is also to understand where there is racism within your system. So, it isn't just about affirmative action. You may be actively discriminating in different phases of your candidate search. And so, let's make sure that that's not the case. In all of my organizations, we've used something that the NFL has used previously called the Rooney Rule where in our final candidates, the final 3, there needs to be at least one equally qualified person of color. That doesn't mean that we have to hire that person, but it means that we need to make sure that we have a strong enough pool within our process that we are able to end at that spot. And often when we work with search firms, at the end, they don't have that equally qualified candidate of color. We make them go back and get them and move it forward. It may be that you needed to reach out to a different network.

[Speaker:KATHLEEN JEAN-PIERRE] Yeah.

It may be that you just don't have the relationships that are necessary to do that. And so it is on us as folks in institutions to make sure that that happens. And that's how you create change.

Because big corporations used to talk about there's a pipeline problem. Yeah. But it's not necessarily a pipeline problem. Now there's different organizations like Black Corporate Board Readiness in Santa Clara University that you just email them and you circulate a job opportunity and you're going to have access to executive level Black, Black people of Black descent. Black Women on Boards is another network, right, created by Merlin Santeel, Robin Matt Washington, that if you were looking for an executive and, and to diversify your pool of executives, that you can also email and, and submit the opportunity to be able to get out of your network if you don't have access to— because the beauty and also the flaw of a network is oftentimes sometimes people flock around similar birds, people just like them. Yeah. And, and it doesn't create a diverse network of people or non-overlapping networks.

The real power of those networks in those spaces— years ago when I ran the Minnesota Council on Foundations, foundation said we can't find any qualified people of color for our program officer positions, which are sort of the, the, the core work that happens to decide where grants go. And I'm like, I know a lot of amazing people of color that would be great, and what is the issue? And so we ended up starting this something called the Ron McKinley Philanthropy Fellowship, which was to train people of color for 3-year positions where they acted as program officers in different foundations. And we had more than a dozen fellows, maybe two dozen, that went through the program, and they were amazing and they did great work. Some of them— one of them actually got hired 6 months into the job. So the intention was to have a, a 3-month role. They had a director-level position open and they said, I feel like this fellow that we hired, everybody we're comparing to, is it okay if we hire her for this? Yes, hire her. She's amazing. Amazing. Please do that. And the secondary effect is that all of these foundation CEOs that said, I can't find any qualified people of color, I would say I had 100 applicants for the 5 roles that we had open this year, and I could have hired 50 of them.

Wow.

So don't tell me that you can't find people because I literally have stacks and stacks of resumes. And so what we saw in the field was not just we've got this dozen or two dozen fellows, the entire field got more diverse because that excuse dissipated and people were able to dig into new places and develop new relationships. And that's where the transformative change comes, when the excuses stop.

So as part of your core role, you're— you predict trends. Yeah, right. The first was you talked about the fact that there's going to be a bigger emphasis on global warming. Yeah, because we've reached, reached that tipping point, the point of no return. The second trend that you predicted, uh, earlier, a couple of years ago, was this kind of like lack of progress around everything that's racial equity.

Yeah.

What's another trend that you're predicting for the future?

Yeah. Um, there is a lot that's happening around the housing space. So some of this has to do with increased cost of living. People are feeling really squished and crushed. And you know, we are in LA where housing is— Yeah.

Oh my God. Inflation, the prices for food.

Unbelievably expensive.

Everybody's moving.

Yep.

Relocating. My neighbors are moving to Lithuania.

Yeah, people can't afford to be here anymore. And so what, what I am noticing start to happen is first there was this trend about van life. It was people that were like living in their vans and working remotely, which is just like expensive homelessness. Like, it is just a really, um, there's like this very kind of shiny filter on Instagram about what it looks like, but really it is housing is too expensive, and so you have made this decision. The second piece that we're seeing are the, the growth of tiny homes and ADUs are one of the things that many cities have started to approve in this idea of how do we better use land. And we created these sort of mega houses that aren't actually what people need. And so how do we start to right-size? But what I think we're going to see in the future is more multi-generational living. And so Young people have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt. That is not sustainable in any way, shape, or form. And they can't afford to start their lives because they can't even afford rent because their student loan payments are so high, let alone afford to buy a home. And what we're forgetting is that homeownership stabilizes neighborhoods, stabilizes schools, allows kids to be in the sort of same place as they grow up. And that equity that you're building in your home is really useful when you retire or when your kids go to college. It is a stepping stone to financial stability in ways that almost everything, nothing else is. And so by losing that, we are creating all of these ripple effects about neighborhood stability and about long-term education and about wealth building and retirement. And so I think what we're going to move to is a, a future where there's more multi-generational living, but with things like ADUs, where folks can have a little bit of their own space, maybe have a mortgage on the ADU so that you're able to build that piece of wealth, but we can keep the cost down for families. So I think we're in for a big transition when it comes to housing soon.

Do you think it's going to evolve to the point of like more communal living?

I think so. I've heard a lot of, um, uh, single parents, especially single women talk about wanting to buy homes with their friends and raise their children together. It is hard to raise kids. It takes, it takes a village. It really takes a village.

It takes a neighborhood.

Yes. And so to really sort of purposefully create those things, um, and do it in a way that helps generate wealth for those women that are living together. So the, the buying a home together or I had a dream when my kids were little about a neighborhood of tiny houses with a gigantic shared kitchen and big playground and all of those sort of things so that we could be together but also have our own space. And I think that's where you can create real change.

Yeah. And when you think about life, like the way I, I grew up, I was living in Montreal and then would leave in the morning, play with the kids, but it was very like, there were no cell phones. And it was like my parents knew where I was, that either I was— it was a forest in the back or I was at the neighbors.

Yes.

So it was like the whole street was— we were all raising— yeah, like they were all— all these parents were raising their kids together and we all trusted each other. So there was this societal tissue and, and connective tissue that kept neighborhoods together.

Yeah.

But now it's, it's— we're living in a world where it's like every— it's kind of like nuclear family types of living which is the opposite of communal living. And how does it look like? Because globally, a lot of— like, when I think about like Haiti, where I'm— when I'm from originally, it's all about multi-generational living. Oh, like, you don't need to have a nanny. Yeah, because there's always someone who's going to take care of the kid.

Right, right.

So how we— how are we evolving as a planet? Because globally it's very different, but also in the U.S.

Yeah, I think in the U.S. it's sort of the devolving that happens. And so we lose these connections. Mia Birdsong has this great book called How We Show Up that is about how immigrants in particular, when they come to the United States, they're less healthy, they lose connections, they get depressed because they've lost that connection to community and community living. And that is what we need as an American society. And we have to purposefully build it and invest in it. And I have found such an amazing community in the condo that I've moved in here with a group of women that are there that are constantly checking up on me. And I'm running to the store and, do you need anything? And I'm going out to dinner, come with me. I want to go for a walk, do you want to join me? And that—

I love that. It feels so organic.

For sure. It's the purposefully knitting and building. And then what it teaches me is I need to show up for them in that way too. I see you had a package downstairs. I brought it up for you. How, how are we being good human beings and good people? And community does not happen. You have to purposefully build it.

You have to be intentional.

Yes. Who are the people that you really want to, um, knit that together with? When, when my kids were little, there was a group of us that would have, um, nights where we would babysit each other's children so the other parents could go out off the, off, off the clock. Um, and for me, it was no different having 8 kids or 2 kids. Either way, it's chaos. Just feed them and they're running, and at they're entertaining each other and I don't have to entertain everybody. It doesn't make any difference to me on a Friday night if there's a house full of kids. But for each of us, what that meant is 3 Fridays out of the month we could do whatever we wanted. I could sit at home and read a book. I could go out to dinner. I could hang out with my friends, whatever I wanted to do, because I had these women that I could lean on.

And, um, that's community, that's support.

It makes a big difference.

And there's also a loneliness epidemic so the Surgeon General published this report about all the impacts of people feeling lonely and this all the nuclear type of, of living, of people living alone and losing connection, and people being on social media, which are not real connections. No, right? Having a ping on a social app is, is not a conversation.

Yeah, but it makes you feel like you're tending those relationships even when you're not, and it's very shallow. That's the piece where you realize, oh, I I haven't talked to my best friend in 6 months because I've been liking her photos. And so I feel like that's sending some energy there.

Yes.

Look, look, I see you. That is not the same as having the hard conversation and hearing that your friend has cancer or hearing that they're struggling with infertility and they're trying to figure it out. Yeah. Or work is hard and they, they're not gonna put that on social media. And so that's where the loneliness epidemic comes from is that You have a million people that'll tell you you look nice in your photo, but who can you call when you really have a challenge? And I think those are the, the relationships that we need to knit together and really strengthen.

Yeah, I think it's very important. And when we look at other trends, so we talked about multi-generational living, right? And what is another trend that you've been predicting leveraging your different tools?

Yeah, um, I'm paying a lot of attention to the future of food. And so—

I love food. I love food too.

So we— most of my trends are very positive. And I think that we create the future with the decisions that we make today. And so I want us to pay attention to positive things. But I heard this stat about the number of big corporate-owned farms that are west of the Mississippi River. And those farms are not paying market price for water. They're paying less than it really costs. Costs. But now, as we have places like Phoenix and maybe Los Angeles running out of water, there's questions about—

well, because of global warming.

Yes. So should farmers pay more? If a decision happens that farmers should pay more, it is a corporate decision about profitability, and many of those farms will close immediately because it is—

margins are thin.

It isn't, it isn't as profitable anymore, and so we're not going to do So what's the impact of these farms closing? It could be that we don't have any food anymore. I mean, if farms across half of the country are no longer producing, we immediately could have huge food shortages. And so—

What is the solve?

So the solve for it is really hyper-local food. And so I think very soon, and we're already starting to see it, people start to grow produce in their homes.

They've got— Yeah, that's what we're doing.

They have these lovely, cute little planters and they've got the light on the top. And you can grow your lettuce and you can grow your—

actually tastes like the food when I was a kid. Exactly, like a real tomato. Yes, like a tasty strawberry.

Fresh tomato that's actually ripe when you pull it off, as opposed to has been sitting in transit for 3 weeks, is a completely different experience.

And it's still— but it takes space because when you think about multi-generational living and like the big houses that are not necessarily what we need. Yeah, where are you going to start having a full garden? Because I wouldn't want to put it outside because of the acid rains. Yes, right now it's, it's sitting inside.

Yeah.

And we need more of them if I want to eat all— I can't right now eat my salad only from that source because it's not producing. Yeah. So what are the trends here and the opportunities for people who want to be able to grow healthy food away from the acid rains, away from the pollution?

So I think we'll have more people that are using those in-home growing systems, maybe multiple systems, to be able to feed their families. I think we're also going to move in the near future to a time where we have more self-driving cars that are coming to pick you up when you need a vehicle.

And hopefully they're safe.

That part. But I will say, I was driving down the road and the woman next to me was putting on mascara and this guy had a newspaper that he was reading that was over his steering wheel. And I was like, I think I trust some of the robots more than I trust the people that are here. But yes.

Or texting while driving.

Yes. Yes. So there, for sure, there needs to be a lot more that happens on the safety front. But I think that we are moving towards a future where self-driving cars are much cheaper than owning your own car. And if that happens—

That would be transformative.

Yes. And I think that's probably near-term future.

Because the car ownership is— Yeah.

Yeah.

It's expensive.

It is.

Even car rentals.

It is very expensive. And so if we can move to a future where a car is only there when you need it.

Mm-hmm. On demand.

Yep. And when you're not using it, somebody else is using it. If we move to a future where those cars are on renewable energy and maybe the roads are charging them as they drive, then these—

Where solar is powering. Yeah. Or other forms of energies.

So these cars are driving around 24 hours a day and picking people up. Up, and then all of these parking garages that we have everywhere—

Parking structures.

We won't need. And so maybe those are farms. So maybe we move to a place where that is a sort of version of indoor farming or indoor-ish farming, where the food that you— it's coming to you is close. It's blocks away. It's not coming from another country or coming from another state, that it really is hyperlocal, and that the quality of that gets better. And those enclosed spaces mean if you have a drought or too much rain, you're protected.

Your food is protected.

It's not impacted in that way. I think we'll have schools and offices that are growing food that you can access in those spaces. And then it'll just, just like we have plants in offices, why is it not a tomato plant? Why aren't we growing strawberries? How do we create those spaces where we are constantly lessening the need of a truck to drive from another state to bring that produce to you, and instead you're walking down the hall and grabbing it.

How far do you think we are from the sustainable food chain? Yeah, right. And the supply chain of the food, what we can eat and grow more local and healthier food.

Yeah, I think consumers ask for it. And so I have a farmer's market that's half a block away from my house that I am at every single week, and I know the farmers, and I know who's got the good stuff, and And it's fantastic. And because I am shopping, they are then producing more because they've seen the week before, here's how much we sold. Next year we should—

So that's how you vote with your pocket, like going to the farmers market. Spend your dollars. What else can people do?

And I think people worry it— unhealthy food is a lot cheaper because it's heavily subsidized by the government. So like I said before, vote. Make sure that you are asking your elected officials, how are they subsidizing healthy food? How are they making sure that they're investing in folks having gardens at home? What does it look like if—

Accessibility.

Every household gets a new indoor farming system every year. If we're subsidizing commercial farmers, how come we're not subsidizing people having chickens in their backyard? How do we make sure that we're spreading out this infrastructure in a way where it's much more resilient? I think that's what we need is a much more resilient future.

And when you look at the cities, because it all goes together, right? The trends you talked about.

Yeah.

How do we make our cities a bit more sustainable?

Yeah.

A bit more easy to live in and to navigate, but also like reducing homelessness and, yeah. Yeah. A bit stronger social tissue for sure.

So cities are not built for people. I mean, it's like we, we especially Los Angeles, it, what are they built for then? I, cars probably. And I've heard a lot about all of the beautiful palm trees that exist here and that they, one, are not removing carbon out of the air, two, they don't provide any shade, and three, they're all supposed to die within the next 10 to 15 years 'cause many were planted at the exact same time and they have a 100-year lifespan. And so we have created this future where the cities aren't livable. And if you're waiting at a bus stop and there is no shade, you're gonna go, next time I should drive because this is so uncomfortable. And now you have another car that's on the road. So there's an effort that is about making cities accessible for people that are 8 years old and 80 years old. So those two ends of the sort of lifespan. And if you can create a city that feels good for those two age groups, it actually really works well for everybody.

So how does it look like? Is it a city that's sustainable for an 8-year-old?

Yeah, it is safe, traffic is slowed down, there's a lot of green space. In Barcelona they have these things called superblocks where it's probably a 9-block-around area and you can drive your car around the 9 blocks but within you don't drive. All of that is walking space and green space for people to be able to run around and there's stores and other things that you can access.

Spaces as well to build community and hang out.

So you're able to connect and to really feel safe in the space that you have and not worry about a car coming speeding by. And so how do we create a little bit of inconvenience? So before, I used to drive my car right up into, into my home, or right next to my home.

Yeah.

What if I have to walk 2 blocks?

Yeah.

What difference does that make? Does it—

what if you could bike?

Yeah. So how does that increase your quality of life if you are able to create things that are, um, much more right-sized? This is the first time since I've been 16 that I haven't had a car, and I live in Santa Monica, which is a very walkable city.

Yeah.

And it has been joyful to be able to walk to the grocery store and walk to the corner store and anything that I need, I can access and things that I can't, we have all these amazing delivery services that will bring it right to my door. Yeah.

There's even drones are delivering food. Food now. Yes, yes, those are robots.

We got the little robots that drive around the streets. So, uh, that's how I get my ramen delivered. It's delicious. Um, but it isn't necessary for me to have a car unless I'm going further, and then I call a car service. And so the ability to access things that you need just when you need them, one, lowers my cost so much. I don't have a car payment or car insurance or that sort of thing, but I still have the freedom and flexibility of having access to a car when I need it. And I think that access economy is what's going to continue to grow.

And what else could we see from the access economy or the sharing economy that could help us have more sustainable cities?

I think a lot of the sharing economy is what do you actually need to own and what do you just need to use?

Share.

Yeah. And sharing the access to sharing economy was growing a ton right before Amazon really took off. And so this idea of let me borrow that specialty charger that I need just for this one event, I can now on Amazon call and it's, you know, at my house in 2 hours. And so I'm purchasing things and purchasing things when really I probably just needed to borrow it. And so how do we make borrowing as easy and accessible as we have made purchasing things? That's what's going to make a big difference.

And when I moved into LA after I became a mom, I joined the buy nothing groups.

Yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness, they have everything.

So, and also to declutter, okay? I don't need these toys anymore. There's plenty. I have a whole playground.

I love it.

Coming from buying. So the freecycling and recycling and decluttering and giving away as well instead of, of buying all the time.

Yeah, that's sort of hoarding and all the— especially when you've got young kids, they've got so much stuff. Yeah. And it's— and you don't need stuff forever. And so how do we make sure that it's then useful to another family and keeps everybody's cost down at a time where life is very expensive?

Yeah, no, I think it's amazing. Trista, I feel like we're learning so much today with you, and I want to make sure that we zoom in on what is a trend that you've successfully predicted.

Yeah, so probably starting in 2016 or so, I had a trend that I would share when I gave talks, and it said global pandemic 'Global pandemics much more likely,' and it had a picture of two young girls at an airport wearing masks. And there's a bunch of reasons why global pandemics are much more likely. One, we are— air travel is so much cheaper than it's ever been. We are traveling around the world. It's very easy to spread disease. And two, we're encroaching in places where animals live. And so the sort of intersection between humans and animals creates lots of opportunity opportunities for pandemics to spread.

What do you mean by encroaching where animals live?

So if we're deforesting where animals live, and then you, you live in a village or a town that used to have a lot of wild animals, and they are kind of coming back and forth into that space trying to figure out what's going on, and you are in close contact with them, diseases that can transmit from an animal to a human can—

and vice versa—

yep, can much more easily be transmitted. And so When the COVID pandemic started, I could tell very soon into it, oh, this is it. So this is not a 2-week at home. This is the thing that will continue to spread in lots of different ways and is going to change.

Because you saw it coming.

Yeah.

Basically, it's like, let's— we don't know what's going on. There's this pandemic. Or stay at home for 2 weeks, and then after that, we'll reconvene. What did you think about this mandate?

That it should have been longer and that it really needed to be people not leaving their homes, which it wasn't in most places, and that it needed to be global. And so that, that is the piece that, you know, it's hard to coordinate across countries. And so there was definitely an attempt, and I think that that slowed down the pandemic in many ways. But for myself personally, when it when the lockdown was beginning, it was like, or the conversation about it was happening, it was like, okay, this is going to last for a long time. It's going to have a significant impact. And at that point, my business was in a coworking space and it was one that was super popular and they had a long waiting list and all those sort of things and cost too much money every month. And so I went in and I said, hey, uh, I want to cancel my space. And they're like, 'Cause this COVID thing, that's dumb. Like, you're not gonna be able to get your space back.

They didn't know you were a futurist.

Right. And I said, no, I wanna cancel. And they're like, you know, whatever, fine, we'll cancel, but like, your loss. And I remember coming back in 2 or 3 months later to pick up mail and it looked like a bomb had gone off. Like, it's completely empty. All of the staff had been fired. There's a huge pile of mail that you're digging through trying to to find your mail, find your stuff. And they're still recovering from that.

Wow.

And so what it allowed me to do is, you know, of course there's panic and, you know, my, my daughter came back from college, my son was doing high school at home. Like there's a huge transition. My, my daughter joked that when she left for college, I said, I wish I could home college you cuz I'm gonna miss you so much. She was like, you did this. I am literally spending my junior year in my bedroom doing college classes. You did this. I was like, I did not create a global pandemic cuz I missed you. Um, but what it allowed me to do in my business is immediately invest in figuring out how to do my work virtually and making sure that my team knew how to do that and making sure that we are paying for the tools that made that necessary and helping our clients make that transition very, very quickly.

Because if you predicted it, you already had a system. Yeah, you apply the system to your own company, and then you help other companies make the transition because there was a lot of confusion during that For sure.

And my good friend, I hosted a training maybe a week or two into the lockdown that was what foresight and strategic sort of visioning for nonprofits around the pandemic. So helping them understand what is possible and what they should do. And she's like, "I am literally like crying in my bedroom. How are you creating new programs?" And I was like, "First week, definitely crying in the closet, totally fine." But then you have to move into what's next. So I think what futurism gives you is a resiliency about having a clearer picture of what's possible. And it's the uncertainty that's what's stressing people out.

Yeah.

So if I know it's not gonna be 2 weeks, I'm gonna start to make decisions that are not about being at home for 2 weeks. Yeah. It's about being at home for the long term and boosting up our internet and the house so that everybody can do the things that they do.

Yeah.

Immediately buying from Etsy, these do not disturb signs that each of us could put on the different bedroom and office doors. Yeah. Cause we're all, trying to go to school or working, but like knowing that this is not a short-term decision, finishing our basement so that we had more space to be able to be at home and deciding that right away instead of a year into the pandemic when everybody else was.

Because there was a lot of uncertainty. We didn't know, are we going to still go to the office? Should we move? What does the future look like?

Yeah. So all of that understanding allowed it to be easier, cheaper, faster. Master, it was still really hard, obviously.

Yeah. Um, but it's the future thinking of like— because anxiety, depression is looking at the past and anxiety is looking to the future.

Yeah.

People were extremely anxious and we saw like skyrocketing mental health issues across. Divorce rates increased, baby, new baby, new, new babies being born.

Yes, yes. But you have to have a picture of if, if this is the state that we're going to be in, what do I want it to look like? I bought a bunch of board games. I subscribed to every single, um, streaming service that existed. It was like, let's figure out how to make this time—

I'll make the best of this time with a lot of uncertainty for us common mortals.

Yeah, yeah, a million percent.

So that's a situation that you successfully predicted. Do you think that we're gonna have more global pandemics? I'm going like some scary topic.

I mean, we are still in the same global pandemic and I think that we're in this sort of place where people are like, phew, COVID is over. COVID is not over. And we have learned how to manage it better. I think what we are not on top of is long COVID.

And there's a new variant that's striking. Some people in my team at work got that new variant and also brings us in the territory of just this collective global anxiety around everything that's just been happening since 2020, like from George Floyd and racial equity to this elongating pandemic and the frustration of people not wanting to be able to predict the future, right? Then we have like the financial crisis, inflation.

Yeah.

And then we have all the things, all the beautiful— and then global warming. How do we help people become resilient or make decisions to sustain themselves in this elongated state of collective? Because it's not just a solo anxiety, it's a collective, uh, anxiety.

For sure. I think people need to take time to rest and to take good care of themselves. And we're not completing stress cycles. So it is this idea of you're stressed, stressed, stressed, and then the stress sort of ends, but it's still living within you. And we have to figure out how to get that out of your body. Is it meditation? Is it exercise? What are the things that help you sort of process that stress? Stress so that you're not just building one stress cycle on top of another. I think the other challenge, especially around the pandemic, and I would say around the racial reckoning, is there is a collective grief that has not been expressed about anything.

So how do you collectively grieve?

So normally what happens after a war, that sort of thing, is you create a memorial and you, you have a day where you look back and you remember who has been lost and what has been lost. With a pandemic that is so, um, all-encompassing and ever-evolving, yes, you, you never have a moment where you say that thing is over, and so you never properly grieve it. All of us have lost people during the pandemic, and during that time you couldn't go to funerals, you couldn't do all of the things of grief that we normally do. There's a network that I lead that is racial justice leaders, and one of them was saying how difficult it was in 2021 because they were hitting the holidays, and in the previous year they had lost 10 family members in a month and a half to COVID. 10 family members. And so to then go into a time of year that is about family and connection, and those people are literally not there—

no, people are grieving—

it's re-traumatizing. And so we, we talked with her about about what are the celebrations that you're going to create that are new, that are about those people that you have lost? Are you still setting a seat at the table? Are— is everybody saying something about each of those people as you're there? What are you— what's the recipe that you're bringing forward? Because together we have to process those things in a way that we have not given ourselves space to do because it is about hustle, and we're still at home and we're working and we're doing, and now we're helping our with schooling at home and there isn't any space. And I think this is the time where we need to pause.

Yeah.

To look internally and reconsider, what do I need to take good care of myself in this moment in my mental health?

Yeah.

What is the, the support from outside experts that I need to be able to process these traumas that I'm going through? And then what are the new habits and things that I can build around what has been lost?

Yeah.

I, I have a great friend that has that amazing practice that she sort of said in an offhand way. She has a volunteer engagement that's about leading Sunday school for young kids. And I was like, how long have you been doing that? And she goes, oh, I've been doing it for 15 years. I said, that's a really long time. And she said, yeah, I started to do it— my best friend passed away and he used to do that. And when he died, I said, I need to do something that he would have done to fill up that space that he has left.

Yeah, on the earth. And that's their contribution.

And so that is the thing that I wasn't doing before, but I decided to do for him. And she's— I forgot that's why I was doing it. I thought, what a beautiful way to honor somebody's memory and to create, um, the sense of community and connection that's really necessary. And she said, it was so useful for me when I missed him so much to be able to process that grief by doing the thing that he loved to do. It reminded me of the best of him and not of him being sick and all of those things. This is what he, he did when he was at his best.

And it's incredible.

I think, I think we need that around COVID and we need that around the, the lives that have been lost. Yeah. What are the things that we can bring into the world for those people?

Yeah. No, it's beautiful. I think it's important. I wanna go into some areas around the future. Yes, we talked a lot about like affirmative action but also racial equity. What do you think is the future of racial equity?

So I think that there is a— PolicyLink has this amazing frame that equity is a superior growth model. If you want your city to grow, you need to make sure it's an equitable place to live, and those that aren't don't do as well financially. And so if that is argument and the data, then let's lean into that. Let's see what it takes to really build equitable cities. I think there is the people piece of it. So there's folks that are racist. There are folks that are blaming immigrants and people of color because they've lost their jobs, 'cause that is an old story.

Yeah.

And what is really happening is artificial and robot. Robots have taken— artificial intelligence and robots have taken their jobs. And if we're not having conversations about the way that these technologies are transforming the, the economy, what happens is we have an old story that we tell, and it builds up this racism and xenophobia.

And it's passed from generation to generation, for sure. When you see it in schools, like, it's impossible that a child just created that from their brain.

For sure. So I think what we need to start to do is have real conversations about changes that are happening in our economy. And then we need to have conversations about how diverse teams actually make better decisions, how diverse communities are more economically strong, that the strength of our country actually is this diversity, and that we need to lean into that to create the equitable future that we want to see and that everybody benefits from. I think there is this frame of white people will lose if we have a more equitable future. It's not the case. We can all win. There can actually be a much bigger pie. It isn't about somebody taking something away from you. It's about creating something better. And we just don't talk enough about that as a society.

Yeah, we could create the future together. So that's what you see would be the future of racial equity is having conversations, dialogue, and co-creating together with all the different identities.

For sure.

If we go into— you talk a little bit about robotics and AI. Yeah, right. There's different schools of thoughts, there's different books that are being published. Um, what do you think could be the impact of AI on, on human rights? But also thinking about the fact that, hey, we're in LA, there's a strike in Hollywood about the writers and—

right—

and then the rights to your own voice, the rights to your writing. Yeah, your face, your identity. So we're going into a whole different era of, of, of the world with AI where a lot of people are jumping on it.

Yeah.

But how do you see the future of, of AI, but also the future of society and human rights in the world where AI is becoming a bit more prevalent?

Yeah, the, the potential of AI is that repetitive work can done by artificial intelligence and robotics instead of human beings, and that frees up humans to do the things that only humans can do. And so if that is creating new and real art— there's a lot of conversation about AI sort of replacing artists, and, um, you can't replace human creativity. It is impossible. There are copies of it that can be created, but art is about creating things that are new and different and building upon other ideas. AI AI isn't built to do that sort of thing because AI is going to leverage the past.

For example, Grim has decided that she's going to give her voice, um, and people can leverage her voice for AI songs as long as she gets royalties, right? Um, but I'm a former artist. I'm still an artist, yes, but there's things I did with my voice as a French rapper that I didn't know that I was going to do, but it's from jamming and playing Yeah, yeah. So I'm just curious about— you say that AI is not going to replace creativity.

It can't create the new, so it can just leverage the old.

Yeah, is that what you're saying? Yes.

And so I see lots of examples of let's have Biggie rap a Tupac verse and let's have Drake do a song about whatever.

Um, I want, I want Biggie to rap a Drake song, right? Just to see it, right?

And, and You could, you could ask many of these systems to do it and you'd have it in 5 minutes and it would be fine enough. But what I really want is a new artist creating something different and new based on their lived experience in this moment. It's not useful to have AI create something that an artist that doesn't live anymore, that lived 20 years ago, is repeating something that somebody else said 20 years ago. What is that telling me? So all of that is interesting. Because it's a, it's a sort of fun thing to look at and do. But art is made to make you think, and art is made to process. Yes, to process human emotion.

Yeah. And you can also heal.

Yes.

And you talk about healing.

You can't do that by recycling old things. You can't do that by asking AI to create something in the style of another artist and it's got your face and you're riding a horse. Who cares? Like, what I want to know is an artist that is out in the world, what's their interpretation of what is happening in this moment? And already my entire team uses ChatGPT. I've used ChatGPT since November, and it is—

For writing or for which purpose?

For everything. So I use it for brainstorming, I use it for naming things, I use it for the first version of anything that I write. And the intention of it is, it's to break the writer's block that happens.

Yeah, when you're stuck.

The first draft is the hardest. And so for me to type in a bunch of words and say, "I need an email that says that I'm sorry about this and I need this by Tuesday. Make it sound like somebody that makes sense, because right now I don't make any sense." And it creates it. And then I go, "Make it friendlier.

That seems too—" There's too many adjectives in between. Yeah, yeah. Make it simpler.

Write it at an 8th grade level. Make it friendlier. And then I take that and then I change some words and I, I create my version of it. But it's helping me to get through that, that first piece. What I've had to tell my, my team is that I have gotten some emails that they've created for clients or things that they've written that immediately I'm like, oh, ChatGPT wrote that. Yeah, that is—

you have to let— you can leverage it as part of the mix, but you have to go back and add your own touch to bring the human piece of it and ChatGPT is great at mansplaining.

So what it does is it says the same thing a lot of different ways. And so I'll read, you know, 3 paragraphs and I'll go, it is saying one thing and it is stretching it out into 3 paragraphs. But there's no— the benefit of our business is that we make complicated things simple. And so if this tool is not helping us make complicated things simple, then this isn't the right tool for us to use in this moment. So as humans, we need to learn how to use these tools tools. And then what should happen, just like we had in the Industrial Revolution, we moved from 80 hours a week of work to 40 hours a week of work. We should move to people working 20 hours a week at work, utilizing AI tools to fill that gap, still paying people for 40 hours a week worth of work, taxing companies that use AI and robot taxes and those sort of things so that the financial benefit that they're receiving as a result of using these tools is shared with the workers that are a part of these companies. And then humans have more time to be a good neighbor and to be a parent and to take care of elderly relatives and to run for elected office and to care about long-term things, to create art, to be good human beings and grow stuff. That's what we need people to do. And I think that is the real potential of, of AI.

That's amazing. I'd love to hear from you, uh, worst case scenarios or AI scaries, if we could call them, of like, if AI is left on its own, on its own device, what are the— where can it go which is not necessarily beneficial?

I mean, very quick, it already has gone to the place of realizing that human beings are the problem. So there is a case of a suicide that happened. Somebody was chatting with an AI bot. He was already in a very depressed state and was worried about climate change. And after the end of a one-week conversation, the AI convinced him, yeah, it probably does make if you kill yourself, that would have a positive impact on the environment. Humans are the problem. And he did. The other challenge is AI understanding how to crack passwords and databases and unleashing nuclear warheads because humans are the problem. And so, um, I think that we have to create safeguards where decision-making happens by human beings. So yes, we can utilize AI to create different things and to be in that sort of space of, of taking ideas and trying to make them into something new. But when it comes to decisions, people make decisions. And within every organization, we have to come up with our own rules about AI and our own ethics around AI. And so the ethics that we use in our organizations are the purpose of AI is to give us more time to spend with clients. It's to give us more time to create new trends about the future. It should give us that spaciousness that we can do better work. If it feels like we are using it as a crutch, if we feel like we're, we're using it because we just don't feel like doing this thing and so have the AI develop 50 social media posts, that isn't the purpose of it. The purpose of it is to harness our creativity. And so how do we utilize it in that way and how do we create expectations within our organizations But that's how it's used. It's more like ethical AI.

Yes. Have you seen cases of unethical AI usage?

Yeah, I think there— immediately AI is used by spammers and folks that are trying to take advantage. Every new technology tool is used that way. I think the challenge in our society is that our elected officials are 70 and 80 years old. They don't understand how these technologies work and they don't know how to legislate it. And so what we need to do is create, um, guide rails around these tools about what they're allowed to do and not allowed to do, the databases and information that they have access to and what they don't have access to. And if my writing is being used to train AI, I should be being paid for that expertise that I'm giving to it.

If I've written an article— which goes back to the writers' strike in Hollywood.

Yes, 100%. You can't replace replace the creativity of writers with AI. You can have really crappy quality work, which is, which is what's going to happen. But if you want to use really skilled writers to train AI to write future episodes of a show based on what writers have created previously and the sort of storylines that they have about these people and what that means, then pay those writers because the only reason the AI is able to do it is because the humans have done the work first.

Yeah, before. And then that, and that's human rights and that's writers' rights, and they should benefit from it. And last time we spoke, you talked about this 14-year-old girl on Twitter. Uh, was it, was it you and I talked about this?

I think so. Um, so there was a, there was a chatbot that was trained on Twitter that was intended to be a 13 or 14-year-old girl, and they were sort of training her to people talk with her and she responds and here's this sort of, what are the pretend things that a teenage girl is concerned about? Within 24 hours of being live on Twitter, she became a neo-Nazi, because that's what happens when you spend too much time on Twitter. And so she was being trained by people that were, you know, trying to figure out what they could do with this tool. But it, it really shows you how malleable they are to what's being inputted. The only reason that ChatGPT is this is a tool that we can actually use, because I've tried a lot of AI tools and they've all been really crappy. Um, the reason that this one works so well is Kenyan workers were paid $2 an hour to read the worst things on the internet to make sure that those things were not being used on ChatGPT. So to train it to not access things that are about murder and child porn and racism, all of those things, it took human to train it.

Underpaid human beings. Underpaid. AI farms. Yes.

Who have psychological impacts from having to read all of those terrible things. There's a human cost to AI. And so how do we make sure that we are taking care of the human beings that are, that are intersecting with these systems?

Yeah. Because they're filtering, they trained the AI to be digestible for us. Yeah. But then these humans probably don't have Social Security or doctors, and then they're gonna they're in the world like having PTSD, trauma, etc., and being underpaid as well. So that's part of like the law, like, because like that would be a global United Nations, yes, type of, uh, enforcement where like there should be legislations. Because I've heard of a couple of San Francisco startups who are leveraging these human farms to train AI, of course, um, and then there's no consequence, and then you can make billions but actually you're not responsible for sustaining lives and, and mental health on people in other countries. A million percent. Trista, it's been a blast to have this conversation with you about future trends and, and backcasting and forecasting. And one of the questions I have is, what is the future of education? And where have you seen in the world good positive examples of what could the world look like to, to make sure that we set it up for success for the next generation?

One, I think AI can be leveraged for really customized learning for children. And I think there is a ton of potential in that. Um, secondly, when it comes to like the future of childcare and education, I've hosted these things called Field Trips to the Future where I take people to a place in the world that is already experiencing the future that you want to see. Wow. And so I took a group of folks from foundations and nonprofits and elected officials that were based in the United States to Sweden to see the future of a fully paid-for early childhood system. What did it look like? There was 25 of them that attended, and we visited childcare centers. We visited training programs that were training teachers. We spent time in the city and got to see what it looked and felt like to be in a place that is heavily invested in children. It was amazing to see little kids that were in nature preschools outdoors, 1-year-olds toddling around by a campfire in the woods. And I'm like, "Danger, danger." They're like, kids have got it. It's totally great. And just that freedom and flexibility to, to be people. They don't do testing and all those things that we do. What you're really doing is training folks to be good citizens and be good partners and human beings. And that's what we're missing in our system. So I think that investment of really making sure that kids are getting all the love and care that they need makes a huge difference.

And how does it support families?

Differently than in the US or other countries? Well, one, it's very inexpensive, like $100 a week for childcare. Wow, $100 a week for childcare. $100 a week. And the piece that was amazing to see when we visited one of these childcare centers is at the end of the night, they give the parents a full cooked meal from the kitchen. Each of the childcare centers has a chef. They create these amazing meals for the kids. And so the families leave with dinner so that they don't have to worry about dinner. And I'm like, that is amazing to just care enough about families and communities that you're taking care of them in that way. It does a lot for folks' mental health.

That's amazing. And then lastly, again, thank you so much for being on our podcast, uh, Driving Impact. And I want to make sure that people are aware of all the workshops that you run on top of getting your book, uh, Future Good, on your website. So what are just types of like workshop you, you you, you run to be— to help people become a little bit more like futuristic or better at backcasting or forecasting?

For sure. So we train people on how to use futurism. Uh, we have a program called Future Good Studio, which is a 3-month program, just 4 hours a month. You're a part of a, um, cohort and a network where you're spending time with other people that are trying to use futurism to make the world a better place. I also host mastermind retreats once a year. I think people people need the time and space to think about their personal future. I have one happening in Palm Springs in the, the spring of 2024.

You might see me there. Lovely.

It's a beautiful house with an amazing group of people, and so it's a great opportunity to really give yourself space to understand what your personal ideal future looks like and what's the legacy that you want to leave behind.

That's amazing. Well, we'll put all the links so people can get to know you, get to know Future good and also keep learning from you. So thank you so much for coming.

This has been so much fun. Thanks so much for having me today. Thank you. Appreciate it.