Will Sarni: "Water is worth 60% of the Global GDP, $58 Trillion".

There was a recent report by WWF, World Wildlife Fund, that quantified the value of water globally. I believe the number was $58 trillion based on 2021 data, which is 60% of the global GDP. Water is valuable well beyond the price that we pay for it.

Hi everyone, I want to welcome you to a new edition of Driving Impact. And today's guest has an impressive list of accomplishments. We're very lucky to have Will Sarnie. And a bit more about Will. Will is a founder of and CEO of Water Foundry, which is a water strategy consultancy. He's also the founder and general partner of Water Foundry Ventures. Will is a host of the podcast called Distilled by Equatium and is the co-host of The Stream with Will and Tom. So two podcasts. And he's published not one, but five books. So the books are Corporate Water Water Tech: A Guide to Investment, Innovation, and Business Opportunities in the Water Sector. Beyond the Energy-Water-Food Nexus: New Strategies for 21st Century Growth. Then Water Stewardship and Business Value: Creating Abundance from Scarcity. Creating 21st Century Abundance Through Public Policy Innovation. And then Digital Water: New Technologies for a More Resilient, Secure, and Equitable Water Future. And lastly, Water I Wonder. Welcome to Driving Impact, Will. I know it was a very mouthful introduction, but I think, listen, you've done so many things in your career that I think it's worth the time to articulate it for our audience.

Katheline, thanks for the opportunity. You made me laugh when you were reading my bio. I suddenly felt old. Maybe not suddenly, but I appreciate you doing that. And thanks for the opportunity to have a conversation with you.

No, thank you for joining us, and I think you're very rich with knowledge and experience. And I think we're also at an important turning point for the planet, and our audience really cares about what can we do to turn around the water scarcity trajectory and actionable actions. Before we go into the topic of water strategy and dig deep into the water sector, I wanted to go back to the time when you were a kid, just understanding When you were a kid, what did you want to be when you were growing up? And what were the turning points or even like pivotal moments that you realized that, okay, I'm going to focus my career on water and write 5 books, etc.?

Okay, so I grew up in New York, New York City, and when I was very young, I wanted to be an astronaut, which that did not play out. But I was always drawn to water and, you know, the beach for, you know, obvious reasons. And in high school, I started surfing on Long Island. I surfed in college and was really, really drawn to the ocean.

Yeah, they get big waves. Long Island gets big waves.

Not as big as Southern California, Katheline Jean-Pierre, but, you know, not bad, not bad surf. And as a result, of course, I thought I wanted to go into oceanography and, you know, sort of continue my passion. It turned out when I was in graduate school, I got a job with a groundwater consulting firm on Long Island. And I absolutely got hooked on freshwater. And what that entailed back then was, you know, basically learning about groundwater. And discovering sources of water for, for people, for communities and utilities and industrial clients and so on. And that was really the front end of my career. So, you know, it was that curiosity with water that turned out to be, you know, a focus on freshwater supplies and all the challenges. And I was very fortunate. I worked for a groundwater consulting firm on Long Island by the name of Gerdeon Miller, and David Miller You know, he said, look, if you're interested in groundwater and, you know, you decide that's what you want to do, you'll always have a career in it because it's a public health issue. And he was right. And it has proven very much to be the case.

That's amazing. Well, thank you for the work that you're doing. And I think it's going to help because we're seeing also some people working in different industries that are now pivoting into focusing a little bit more about climate. So from your early career in water, you've had a long list of projects and successes over the years. So can you tell us more about the main projects you're focused on right now and what their goal is? And if your projects are wildly successful, what impact could they have?

That's a great question. So the, the projects that I have focused on for the past couple of decades have been primarily working with corporations on understanding water, well, understanding the value of water, certainly to their business, but, you know, to society, understanding water is a business risk. So if a company doesn't have water, then they, they can't run their business. Uh, and then strategies to mitigate the risk. So very much focused on the private sector historically and continue to do so. And what I have found over time is that more and more companies are beginning to understand the value of water even though the price of water is very low, the value is very high. And how do they contribute to solving water? So there's the private sector work that I do that I find really interesting and impactful. And I do quite a bit of work with water technology companies.

Mm-hmm.

So companies that are focused on water conservation or water treatment, water reuse, improving access to water. And then also investing in water technology companies, either as an individual or, or through the fund that I, I founded and, uh, have several partners that I work with on that. So there's really this nexus, this intersection of the work that the private sector is doing that is, it's very interesting to me, continues to be very interesting and very impactful. And working with entrepreneurs that believe that they have a solution that can contribute to addressing some of the very pressing water challenges that we have. And then also looking at, well, you know, can I do more than mentor a company and be an advisor? Can I, you know, leverage capital and help them raise funds, whatever it may be, or direct investments? So That's really where I fit in the world of water. And also, you know, I like to write books on water.

As we've seen.

Yeah. So, you know, if you ever have trouble sleeping, pick one of them up and it'll cure you instantly. Although I will say the last book that you mentioned, Water I Wonder, is a children's book. And that was a very, very satisfying book to write. And I'll continue to write children's books.

I have a 4-year-old, so I think it's always— I got him, yeah, I got him a book about venture capital investment. I got him a book about finance. I don't think he follows. He's just like, yeah, whatever. But I think having access to understanding the value of water, but also of the planet, I think is definitely a good place to start, right, to educate the population. So you talked about multiple great concepts. I wanted to double-click first in the work that you do with a couple of water technology companies. Can you tell us a little bit about some of these companies? What are they doing and what are they trying to impact in the world?

Sure, another great question. You know, the way I look at this, and, and a lot of my colleagues do also, it's, you know, how do we address water scarcity? And the way we address water scarcity is by reducing demand and reusing water over and over again and finding very effective treatment technologies that don't use a lot of energy, don't generate a lot of carbon emissions, things like that. And I also look at improving water quality, so innovative treatment technologies, uh, and then also improving access to water, which really kind of cuts across a number of those first two. So the companies that I find interesting and work with or want to work with and want to invest in are companies that are very focused on digital technologies. And you mentioned you come out of the IT sector.

Yeah.

So it's essentially companies that can collect data and turn it into actionable information. So there's a big movement right now around leveraging satellite data and turning it into actionable information, the ability to forecast. There's a company called GYE, G-Y-B-E, that uses satellite data primarily coupled with on-the-ground sensors, and they can monitor surface water quality remotely.

Oh, wow.

So if you think about the applications for that, they have the ability to provide real-time data on water quality, which is valuable to water utilities that collect water from surface water bodies. It's important for private industry that uses water for manufacturing beverages and food. It's also important to the public sector who, you know, in a community might manage, you know, a swimming beach or recreational water. So remote sensing technologies like that I find to be really interesting. There's a company called True Elements out there that has aggregated publicly available water data, water quality, water flow, couples it with climate change scenarios, and they can give you a snapshot of what water quality looks like and water flow data within your area and also has integrated climate scenarios. So, you know, developing an understanding using artificial intelligence on how things might change over time. There's a company called Transcend that uses artificial intelligence, and I use AI quite a bit because it's an interesting development in the world of water. And they, they design wastewater treatment systems, and they can do it quickly. They can do it using their AI engine, and they can come up with different designs depending on climate scenarios and other factors. So the ability to collect information on a real-time basis and forecast what things might look like going forward, and also using AI for design is an important segment of what I find interesting and impactful in the world of water in both the public and the private sector. And then, you know, reducing demand, we need to use water more than once. You know, in the US, we treat water to drinking water standards. So that means the water that comes into your home is potable, safe to drink. Then we flush our toilets with it. We water our lawn. We wash our car with it. Makes no sense. So giving the homeowner or commercial properties the ability to reuse water by treating it in home. So you might get water that you would use for washing your dishes or taking a shower, and then you could use it to flush your toilet, things like that. And there's a company out of the Netherlands called Hydroloop.

Hydroloop?

H-Y-D-R-A-L-O-O-P.

Okay.

You know, and you know, that's a company we invested in and one that I work with closely. So there are a number of really interesting technologies out there that are appropriate for the homeowner, appropriate for commercial properties, appropriate for businesses, the public sector, whatever it may be. And it's really an exciting time to be in the world of water and paying attention to, you know, how the challenges we face in the world of water are driving innovation and bringing in entrepreneurs to help solve some of them.

I think it's exciting that there are multiple companies and entrepreneurs who are leaned in to be able to solve these problems. I'd love to hear a bit more about— you talked about water conservancy, but also recycling and reusing water in the home. How does it work? Because you said it doesn't make sense that we're using fresh water to wash our car and to brush our teeth and for every single— or to go to the bathroom, right?

Yeah, there are a number of technologies out there right now. You know, there is Hydroloop. Again, it's designed to treat water in your home so you can use it for another purpose, not for drinking water. But for non-potable, non-drinking water uses. There is a company out of San Francisco by the name of Epic Clean Tech, and they have a water treatment technology primarily for commercial applications. So, you know, think about actually the Salesforce building in San Francisco uses an Epic Clean Tech system in, in their office building. There are a number of technologies for the shower where you can use shower water, and then when it goes into a drain, it treats the water and you can use it again. So you're recycling that water.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So, you know, Katheline Jean-Pierre, it's really, really fascinating that when you have these challenges, you know, whether it's scarcity or poor quality, there are entrepreneurs that rise to the occasion. You know, it— these challenges really do drive innovation. And, uh, you know, humanity, I would say, in general has a pretty good track record in coming up with solutions. Now, that doesn't mean that we should just rely— let everything— yeah, you know, go down the drain, so to speak, and, you know, we'll be saved by tech, but You know, I, I like to focus on things that are going right. Yeah, 100%. You know, yeah.

I think it's exciting that we have a lot of entrepreneurs who are focusing on these water scarcity issues. So you talked about the Salesforce building and the fact that water is being recycled and reused. Is it a widespread principle across all businesses that they're using such technology?

No, it's not widespread. So, you know, part of my, my mission, if you will, is to, you know, have conversations like this and point out that, you know, there are technologies out there that, that we can leverage, we can adopt. You know, it's a matter of getting the word out, if you will. It's in part changing public policy to make it easier for these technologies to scale and, you know, really be a viable solution in a big way. So yeah, it, you know, I usually not, and I'm gonna say usually, but I always quote the author William Gibson, science fiction writer, and his quote goes something like, the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet. And I love that quote because if you look around, you can find solutions that appear to be out of the future. And someone invented them and someone invested in them and someone gave them a try. And if we could increase awareness and, you know, let people know that, yeah, there are technologies out there and they can be done at scale. So we do have a bigger impact to your earlier question. Then we'll be well on our way to solving some of the challenges we face in the world of water and, you know, climate change and, and so on.

So there's a couple of, a lot of gold gems in what you said. So if we look at, there's the government, right? Because you talked about private policy, there's also businesses, and then there's the individual, right? So how do we, if we start with government, how do we change policy? How can we impact policy as individuals?

So it is education and awareness. So understanding what the issues are and getting out and voting on these topics and making it very clear to those running for elected office or in elected office that issues like climate change and water matter, that social issues matter, and you will vote accordingly. I also believe there's an opportunity to, you know, as they say, vote with your wallet, which is buying products and services from companies that align with your values.

Yeah.

That sends a message to the market for those people that can invest, whether you have, you know, a government IRA, well, or whether you have your an IRA or 401k, whatever it may be, or you decide to make individual investments, you can invest in what are technology funds or, you know, individual companies. So, you know, the individual has probably a lot more power than they are aware of and we give them credit for. So I believe civil society is a powerful, powerful force. The trajectory that we're on right now with respect to things like water scarcity and climate change and, and so on.

No, I think it's very helpful what you said, right? So we can vote, we have the power to vote for elected officials that are going to prioritize water. We also have everything that we buy, right? We can— buying with our wallet or voting with our wallets, that's another way that we can do it. So what are the other ways that the common mortal, the common individual, can also drive impact on the water scarcity issues that we're facing?

Yeah, I mean, there's certainly things that you can do in your home, you know, places like California, you know, or even Colorado, certainly, you know, just be mindful about using water, you know, how you use water. You know, I can't imagine that people can still rationalize having a lawn in the desert, you know, a grass lawn. So, you know, if you own a house and you have a lawn and, you know, get native grasses, native vegetation. You know, if you're in your home, either get water conserving devices or water reuse, you know, to the extent it's, you know, affordable for you. Engage with your water utility. They're a great resource of information on, you know, some of the challenges that they face and what you might do as an individual. So yeah, the power of the individual, power of civil society at large, you know, is often underestimated, but it's powerful and impactful.

I think it's very powerful what you just said. I want to double-click a little bit more on what are the water conservation technologies, and I'm asking candidly because I live in a home and I don't even know what the water conservation—

Yeah, so I would, I don't know what water utility, you know, you get your water from, but I would reach out to them and ask them. You know, what do you, what do you recommend for my home? Do you have a rebate program where you get a discount? You know, that they'll basically cover part of the cost. But, you know, water-efficient fixtures, low-flow, low-flow toilets, low-flow, you know, showerheads, leak detection equipment in your home. You know, detecting leaks is really important. you know, things like that. So there, there are technologies that are out there. I mean, if you do have a lawn, then, you know, there are smart irrigation technologies that are, I would say, getting a lot of attention right now. So yeah, I, I would start with you, your utility, and I would encourage everyone to do that and just reach out to them. They're a great source of information and The nature of the relationship between the water utility and the customer, consumer, has really changed over the past few years. Now it's a two-way conversation. They want to know, you know, how they're performing. They want to be a resource for their customer base. And there are technologies out there that they can steer you to. Yeah, that, that would be really my starting point in, in all of this.

It's a good one. And you talked about the fact that water irrigations are trending right now. And how is that so?

Yeah, so certain parts of the American West will not let you build a home with a lawn with grass. They are promoting native grasses, native plants, which is great. Yeah, I think that's where we're headed. And, you know, there are if you do have a lawn, you know, sort of, you know, the old timers for watering your lawn are primitive at best and hardly efficient. So, you know, there are technologies out there by a company called Hydropoint, Rachio.

Yeah, I know Rachio well.

Yeah, you know, those, those are smart. I mean, and I mean, they're smart and they're smart. They're intelligent. Watering systems. And that goes a long way. So you're not wasting water. You're not spending money on water that you don't need, that your lawn doesn't need to stay healthy. And, you know, your water utility would appreciate that.

Yeah, 100%. So it's a better usage of resources and time, and it's a smarter system as well. I think that's very helpful. And then in terms of the enterprise, right? So what can enterprises do to be able to— because we talked about Salesforce earlier. To optimize a little bit more the how they use water?

Yeah, corporations?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I think that's actually an exciting part of the story right now, and that you are having certainly food and beverage companies pay a lot of attention to water and how they use it and setting very ambitious goals to use less water and also support the communities in which they operate in. So, you know, use, and this is, you know, not all-encompassing, but, you know, you see companies, you know, they have robust programs to understand how much water they're using, how they can reduce that water, how they can work with their agricultural supply chain because, you know, you need barley for beer, for example. And how do they work with their farmer, farmers that are in their supply chain? They're investing in technologies. So they're working on identifying entrepreneurs that have innovative solutions, providing pilot project opportunities, funding. Fascinating in terms of what they can do.

It's a whole world.

Yeah, it's a whole world.

Corporations can do.

Yeah. And it's more than, more than just the food and beverage sector. So, you know, you're seeing companies that have data centers, they have goals. As part of their replenish program to offset the water that they use. So they're partnering with utilities, they're partnering with technology companies, a company by the name of PhytoTech, which is an AI leak detection company. So really not just driving innovation technology, but innovation and partnerships. So really reaching out to other stakeholders that have a vested interest in being part of the solution to water scarcity and, and quality issues.

That's amazing. Thank you, Will. And I want to move towards what is the state of water scarcity right now in the world globally, also in the US, and we have part of our audience as well as in Canada. So if you can give us a bit of a download of like where are we with water scarcity, what are the data points that are important to know, and, and What does the picture look like globally?

Well, you know, there've been some recent studies that came out over the past several months. Surface water quality has declined globally by 53%. I think it was between 1992 and 2020. You know, and this is using on-the-ground sensors and satellite data. So we're seeing surface water decline.

So half of the quality is—

Well, it, Well, 53% of the surface water bodies have shown declines.

Okay.

So, so not an absolute decline of 53%. Uh, and, and, you know, the American West, the Colorado River Basin has been feeling the impacts of climate change for some time. Groundwater in the US, so, you know, in aquifers, that's been declining over the past several years, actually past several decades. I think over the past 40 years, there have been a significant decline in groundwater levels, which means that, you know, we're taking groundwater out of these aquifers at a faster rate than nature can resupply.

Replenish, yeah.

Right, exactly. So surface and groundwater is stressed because we have been taking out more than is sustainable. There was a recent report by WWF, World Wildlife Fund that quantified the value of water globally for all uses. So for ecosystems, for human consumption, for human use. And I believe the number was $58 trillion.

Wow.

In 2021, based on 2021 data, which is 60% of the global GDP. So we think about the value of water. They've actually put a number on it. Wow. And, you know, we might argue about the number, but the reality is that that's a big number.

So extremely valuable.

Yeah, right. So water is valuable well beyond the price that we pay for it. And that drives companies and that drives states and regions and countries. To take actions to preserve that water and value that water and come up with public policies, going back to that, that ensure that we have water for ecosystems and for, you know, human use and so on. So yeah, it's not encouraging in terms of the numbers, but again, You know, people are beginning to understand the value of water and what has to change and being more innovative from a technology perspective.

I think it's important, like awareness, right? Is a starting point, right?

Yes.

I don't think, I think the reason why we invited you as well is to be able to boil down the ocean. No pun intended.

I can't do that. I might write a book about it, but I can't do that. How's that?

Boiling— we're not going to boil the ocean, but to really understand and have a crisp view of what is the situation of water scarcity today. And another area where you focus on, right, is water conservation. So I want to hear a bit more about, like, you've wrote all these books, you focus on different angles, right? You have a big water sector mission. I want to hear more about your water sector mission around conservation. And we heard already about scarcity.

Yeah, so conservation is the way to get at scarcity. So that means that, you know, working with corporations on helping them think how they can manufacture their products with less water, thinking about residential applications. So what are conservation devices, incentive programs, and so on. So, you know, the way to address scarcity is to reduce the demand side. And if you can reduce demand by getting people to be more efficient and conserve more and also reuse water where they can, or in some cases not use any water for whatever purposes, then that's how we address scarcity. And right now there's this big gap between what's available on the supply side. And, you know, I mentioned that surface water levels are down. Groundwater levels are down, but demand keeps going up. So, but the thing to keep in mind is that demand's going up under the status quo. So our goal here is to change the status quo and to get, get us to really be more efficient and careful about how we use water. So it's better in balance with the availability of those resources.

And what is driving water usage up? Is it there's more people on the planet? What is it?

Yeah, it's, you know, it's the public sector, the private sector, you know, more homes, more products that we need globally. So as I say, globally, as people rise out of poverty, they buy more things, stuff, and The stuff, the stuff in our garage or basement, we buy more stuff. And, you know, you need water to make more stuff, and that's a big factor in all of it. And, you know, you— more people means more food, and, you know, you need water to grow crops.

Yeah. I think it's very helpful to know. So basically you're encouraging everything that's free cycling and recycling, thrifting. During COVID 2020, I discovered a group Buy Nothing, and that was my lifeblood. It was— I was a new mom in 2020 in a new city. LA was new, with not a lot of friends. And then I found Buy Nothing, and I would just go and pick up stuff and give stuff and declutter my house and It was literally my number one activity because I didn't have— like, you didn't have a social life during COVID So you're encouraging— I mean, I didn't because I had a newborn and I was like, nobody's going to infect my son. So I think it's good to know that this is where we should be evolving towards instead of buying new or net new things. We should circulate what we have and/or declutter or give away.

I completely agree with you. My youngest son always says buy something, give something away. So, you know, he's right. It's, you know, you, you want a new shirt? Well, give two away.

You know, it's, it's the Marie Kondo principle.

You know, I should have her on the show and she could talk about the intersection of water and, you know, apparel or stuff.

Yeah, I think she's gonna go very deep into why we hoarding so many things and why we're not minimalists and maybe minimalism could help with water overusage and water demand as well. So definitely. So I want to talk a little bit more about— so you've said in the past, we've listened to multiple— the team and I, we listen to multiple of your podcast episodes, but also the talks that you give. So you've said in the past that the net zero strategy doesn't work for water. Can you tell us a bit more about it, right, for the common mortal who's not thinking and talking water all day?

So you did your homework. That's good. That's good and bad.

But it's a lot of homework because there's a lot of books and articles and you have a lot of material on that.

You know, I don't envy you. So yeah, what I mean by that is that, you know, if you think about climate change, carbon accounting, a ton of carbon is the same no matter where you are, right? A ton of carbon in the US is the same as a ton of carbon in China, or wherever. A gallon or a liter of water where you live is very different than it is where I live.

Really? Tell me more.

Well, it's location dependent.

Yeah.

So if I'm in Minnesota a gallon of water is common. If I'm here in Colorado or Southern California, that gallon's pretty precious. It's scarce. And so it, it's location dependent. It is water quality dependent. So the water quality for your gallon is gonna be different than mine. The ecosystems that depend on it, are going to be different. The community that relates to that gallon of water are going to be different.

Yeah.

So it's, it's not transferable. It's always a local issue. And it matters to people, communities in very different ways. So, you know, net zero for carbon, it works because, you know, what is my carbon footprint? I will get to a zero carbon footprint and I can offset my carbon emissions by buying a ton of carbon anywhere in the world. With water, it's just not the same. I, and well, the whole point about my pushback on that is just to get people to understand that water is a local issue. It's very personal. It has attributes that carbon does not have. It has an economic attribute, an environmental one. It has a social one.

Yeah.

So depending on how you use water, it's different than how I use water. And it has a spiritual dimension to it that a ton of carbon doesn't have.

So I definitely want to hear more about the spiritual dimension of water versus carbon because I'm not sure what it is.

Oh, it's cultures, you know, uh, First Nation communities, you know, they just view water very differently as a living entity, and as a result, they respect it the way we, in quotes, don't. So there's a connectivity to what we would consider to be a resource to manage. That is very different than Native Americans, you know, indigenous communities in New Zealand, for example. And there's this whole movement around— it's called personhood. It is basically providing a right as a person to water. And personhood has been assigned, given to two rivers in New Zealand. It's been given to the Ganges in India. There have been a couple of attempts, at least more than two attempts, to do that for the Colorado River Basin.

Mm-hmm.

So For me, you know, understanding that that gallon, that liter of water means something different to humanity than a ton of carbon does is, is really what I tend to push. And, you know, you, you had me tagged as an activist, and, uh, thank you for that. I feel like Yeah, you know, I'm an activist. I get the word out. That's why I do what I do every day.

Yeah, it's very precious. We tagged you as an activist, but also as a water guru because of the depth of the knowledge that you have about water.

Well, thank you. So yeah, I mean, that's why I push back on net zero, really get people thinking differently about you know, the value of water and, and, you know, the attributes that, you know, we typically don't assign to a resource like that.

So if we look at— you talked about the personhood concept, right, in New Zealand, and then tried to do it in Colorado. So how does it— I just want to make sure that we can understand what, what it means really in reality. Like, is water a person, an entity? Is to have a relationship with water?

Yeah, personhood is just a term. It doesn't mean that it's a person. I mean, well, I probably have a very, very different view, but it's basically giving the river a legal right. And, you know, that legal right takes into account what's best for the resource. And that is done through, you know, trustees. So people that are assigned to advocate for the, the body of water. It doesn't mean that the, the river can speak for itself, although it, it might, and we just don't know. But it's really assigning the legal right, personhood, and then having people assigned to represent that body of water. And I, I think it's a really interesting movement.

It's kind of like, assumes like like legal rights. It's also more respect as an entity, and maybe there's principles around it, right? That water should be treated a certain way versus just taken for granted.

Yeah, Katheline Jean-Pierre, I think that's really it. I mean, if, if what we can do is get people to pay attention to that water body in a, and pay attention in a different way and honor it. And protect it and value it, that'll go a long way.

And then carbon. When I think about carbon, I don't even know what I'm thinking about. Water is very clear to me. A river. I love swimming. Obsessed with swimming. I used to be a surfer. But carbon is like, I don't know. You said a ton, a gallon of carbon versus a gallon of water, or a ton of carbon versus a gallon of water. It's like, I don't know how we can have a relationship with carbon, right, versus water.

Yeah, it, yeah, a ton of carbon is an abstract construct. I mean, I mean, it has meaning, but it's just, there's no sort of visceral human connection to a ton of carbon.

No.

You know, the, the You know, it, we need to separate out a ton of carbon from the issues of climate change. I mean, we're, you know, belching out greenhouse gas emissions with reckless abandon, and that's having an impact on our climate. So climate change is real, but getting people to understand what a ton of carbon is all about is very different than that's a gallon of water. And if you put enough gallons of water in a stream or a lake, you can swim in it, you can sail on it. You know, I row, so I row on it. And that just makes it real. It's, it's relatable to people. And that's, I believe that's where we need to get better traction on the issue of water. It's, it's not mobilizing You know, water geeks like me.

Yeah.

You know, we, we talk to ourselves, you know, we're— it's like an echo chamber.

Yep.

But, but have to get people that value water in their own way and understanding that the water that you might row on or sail on is polluted.

Yeah.

Or, or there's less of it. Or the lake might be closed because of algae, you know, whatever it may be. So, and what you do in terms of, you know, reaching out to a community to bring these issues to the forefront is, you know, critically important piece of the puzzle here because, you know, civil society is not going to listen to me and you know, with a PowerPoint deck, you know.

As I tell my students, not if it's 100 slides.

Not if it's— well, not if it's 100 slides in 8-point font, Kath.

Exactly, exactly. It's a PowerPoint, not a power paragraph.

Oh, I like that. That's good.

And then when I text, I think about this manager who told me it's a PowerPoint, not a power paragraph. It's like, don't try to jam all the text in there. Don't do it.

Well, it, you know, it's, it, yeah, it's funny. I, I usually, I usually, you know, do a presentation with PowerPoint slides, and when I don't, I always joke I have nothing to say because I don't have any slides. You know, you just get so used to it, and people ask me like, what, so what do you generate? Like, you know, do you write a report? No, I, I give you a PowerPoint deck. You know, it's like, yeah, that's it.

And I think some of the best stories are like decks with only images because, oh yes, they become more memorable. And I do think that like it brings us to the next question around water scarcity. How do we address it in a way that people understand it? And how do we become activists in a way that's digestible? What is the best way to get people to understand the issues at hand?

Oh, I, I, you have to make it relevant. Just really, really relevant. You know, who's the audience? What matters to them? You know, how do they enjoy water? Do they, you know, do they take water for granted? It always comes out of the tap and it's always safe to drink. That's not the case for a significant portion of the world or even communities here in the US. But I think it's You know, we need to, you know, it's funny now thinking about it, we need to demystify it, but we also need to mystify it in that giving people the facts, helping them understand what we're facing with respect to water, why it's precious, why it should be valued. And also, you know, going back to your question about Yeah, you know, it's got attributes, it's, it's got dimensions to it that connect to humanity in a very different way than, you know, carbon does. You know, I, I've seen a few people, you know, start a conversation by asking the audience to think about the first time they enjoyed water. And, you know, you asked me the question, how did you sort of get into this? I, I think we, we probably need to probe more on that and just, you know, what's your first memory of enjoying water or being in water? And, you know, can you talk about that a little bit? It's—

yeah, what is your first memory of enjoying water? I'll share mine.

Honestly, I believe was going to the beach with my parents. I mean, just, you know, I, I grew up in Queens, New York. And driving to the beach and just experiencing, you know, the power, the mystery of it, the beauty of it. I, I got hooked. I mean, you know, outside of going to, you know, a pool or whatever, it was—

that's real water, like real beach water, right?

Water with an attitude, you know. Water that would knock you right down. Like, that got my attention, you know? So how about you?

So as a kid, I was obsessed with water. I'm from Quebec, Montreal, Montreal, Quebec. So I was obsessed with a book that's called, in French, La Grenouille et la Baleine, which means The Frog and the Whale. And it was— I always believed I was a siren. I'm not going to go all woo-woo on you, but I really, really loved water as a child. We took swimming classes and this book and this movie was about this young girl with like red hair who would just swim in the water with— in nature. And for me, that was the summum of life. It's like if you can swim in the water like a siren, you're happy. And then I grew up wanting to be a lifeguard. I did all the classes. And then I started traveling to surf, right? Never became good. And then that brought me to California because I had a dream and the whole shebang. I had a dream of moving to California for tech, but also because of this moment that I had when I was in Dominican Republic and I was surfing and I was living in a house looking at the water and it was like, wow, that's the kind of life I want to live. So, but originally my family's from Haiti, so, but born and raised in Canada and now I'm in California. The joke is that, oh, slowly but surely you're getting closer to your roots, to the heat, to the water and stuff. So it's like, I didn't think about it that way, but I get it. So I think I always really enjoyed water as a, as a kid.

You know, yeah, it, it's powerful. You know, it, when you ask those questions, people usually have a story. I, you know, I, not that I joke about it, but I, I sincerely believe it's the glue in humanity. You know, it's, it's part of it. It's part of what connects us all. And that's important. Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. And what do you think is missing, right, in the conversation around climate change?

With respect to climate change, what's— I don't know if it's missing, but it certainly needs to be amped up is it's not a hypothetical. It's, it's not something that's going to happen by 2050. It's happening now. And what we're seeing in the American West, where you live and where I live, is something called aridification. And it's the climate is changing to a drier, hotter climate. It's not a trap. It's long-term and it's persistent change. And when you start seeing increase in flooding and, you know, extreme weather events, that's because of climate change. So communicating, it's here and now, this is how it manifests itself. This is how climate change intersects with the water issues that we've been talking about, makes it real for people. And I think it's making it real and You know, making it accessible to people and relatable.

Making it real, make it accessible and relatable. And then what do you think we can do, right, in terms of accelerating some of the transformation and change around impacting the policies?

Really, probably one of the biggest things we can do is, is get public policy to change. You know, voluntary conservation programs. Really don't work. You know, they need to be mandatory. You know, people need to understand that, you know, they need to be using less, and this is how you use less. We need to be creating incentives for tech— innovative technologies to be deployed. You know, I think it really goes back to, you know, how does the individual, how does, you know, a community have a voice and, you know, an informed voice about a topic like water, you know, I think that's what it comes down to. And there, there's a lot of work to be done there.

Mm-hmm. Do you think this biggest impact could be driven if corporations change their behaviors or individuals?

Wow, that's a great question. A great, great question. I wanna sound like a consultant. And I knew that would make you laugh. No, no, I'm fine. I, I've been a consultant for my entire career, so it's, it's not one entity. It's, you know, pretty much baked into who I am. Corporations are made of individuals.

That's deep though. That's deep.

Well, but you know, it's true. I mean, I would say that you know, if you look at the workforce now, I would say they mostly care about things like sustainability and climate change and, you know, water-related issues and so on. So, and, and companies are responding to all of that. They're responding because their workforce is changing. They're responding because their customer base is changing. You know, they're I would say more engaged with other stakeholder groups, you know, and not, you know, NGOs and utilities and the public sector and so on. So I want to go back to the, you know, the person and say that corporations have changed because people have changed. And that has been a very positive shift that, you know, when I started out in sustainability, what I heard quite often was that the business case was it's the right thing to do. And I, you know, quite honestly, I never really bought into that. What has happened is that I really believe that sustainability and the issues like climate change and water, that's the right business thing to do. It's smart business.

Yeah.

And that's why you're seeing, you know, the big iconic brands out there do things, you know, they're making investments.

And can you name a few notable brands that are making big, big moves?

Yeah. I mean, certainly the brands that I mentioned before, you know, so Microsoft and Pepsi and, you know, AB InBev and Diageo. You know, Unilever, you know, Nestlé, you know, it not just the consumer-facing brands, but the, the brands that you typically don't think of as, you know, consumer-facing, you know, they're, they're investing, you know, and they're, they're doing it for a variety of different reasons. So things have changed. Since I first, since I first got hooked on this thing called sustainability, you know, a long time ago. And I'm encouraged by that, you know. I would love to see things move faster, but I'm an optimist, so I hold on to the positive that I see. And, you know, I, I'm filled with angst when it's not moving fast enough, but, you know, that's just that it may. So yeah, I think it's— hopefully that's a— yeah, hopefully that's a positive thought.

I think it's positive. I think for driving impact, we also want to get out of the doom and the gloom and to help people clear their mind and just focus on, on small actions. And I think it's very helpful to know the brands that you named that are dedicated to transforming the current state.

Yeah, and, and that is in no way comprehensive. I mean, really, there, there's so many companies out there doing good things and, you know, making investments. And, you know, I was, I was on a call with a friend of mine who's also in the world of water just before the, you know, our conversation started. And he, he runs a water stewardship program with the, the Water Council. And he said, I can't tell you how many companies that I've never heard of that are building water stewardship programs. So that's awesome. These are brands that are not household names that are doing good things. And, you know, he's thrilled and I'm thrilled for him. Yeah, it's a good news story, Katheline Jean-Pierre.

Yeah, it's— we like good news and we want to triple down on good news and we want to triple down on baby steps. You talked about the fact that brands who are doing big things in water, in the water sector, they have different motivations. Can you highlight a couple of these motivations? I mean, why are they doing— I mean, there's obvious ones, but I'm just curious to see.

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm— I would say I'm most interested in companies that want to build a relationship with the communities where they're located. So there are companies out there that have the point of view that they want to be viewed as an important member of the community. And what that means now is not just making donations to whatever charity is important, but it's being recognized for contributing to improved access to safe drinking water, improving the quality of the water, addressing scarcity and water stress, things like that. So, you know, they're— that for me, that's great clarity that they want to be viewed as part of the solution, and that means that they will proactively engage on some of these really tough challenges that we face, you know, including climate change.

Yeah, and I think it's important to have companies leaned in and involved in making big moves there. So thank you for highlighting that. What are the top 3 actions individuals can take to be able to, to help with our water scarcity problem that we're facing in the world?

The 3 things. Get engaged, you know, like, just get engaged. Understand, increase, you know, your awareness of the issues, whether it's climate change or water or energy, biodiversity, you know, understand the world around you. The second thing would be reach out to corporations, reach out to your water utility, your government agency, your communities in which you live in. And I would say just get out into nature, like, just get out. It's pretty amazing. And that will tie it all together. That'll put a bell on it. If people are out just out and about. So those would be the three.

Less time on the computer, more time in nature, to be reconnected with nature and where we started as, as a species, right? In nature.

Pretty much it. Yeah, sounds so simple, but yeah, I'm going with those three.

That's amazing. On my side, I'm gonna make sure to get What Do I Wonder to see if I can read through it and see how digestible it is. It's interesting because some complicated things, when you read the, the book, the, the children's book version, the authors actually make a lot of time in crystallizing and simplifying the situation at hand versus if they're writing a book for adults. So I do think it's a good way for everybody to start is to, like, buy some children books about water, about carbon, about climate change, etc. And then you're gonna get it because nobody has— no lobby has played with that information and that data.

Well, thank you. So one thing I will bring up. So I wrote that book because my sister teaches 4th grade.

Okay.

In New York. And I, during the pandemic, I did a webinar for her 4th grade classes. And the 4th grade classes in her community. So my sister Celeste teaches 4th grade. I presented to her class, and those 4th graders were brutal. They asked the tough questions. But that was a trigger to write the children's book. So my sister wrote the intro, and Tony Dunnigan did all the amazing graphics for this book. And he found me on LinkedIn.

Wow.

And he started writing me, and he said, you know, when I was growing up, I did not have access to safe drinking water, and so what do you do? And we started talking, and the three of us wrote this children's book. So that's how things happen, right?

It's magic of connections, and it's the magic. Yeah, yeah, solving a small problem, then you find the kindred souls that bring them to life.

Yes.

Amazing.

So Katheline Jean-Pierre, thank you for finding me. This is a great conversation.

Thank you.

And yeah, keep— I feel like I'm interviewing you now, but keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, let me know what you think about Water I Wonder.

Yeah, 100%. And I want a big shout out and thanks to Becca because she's the one who found you. The producer, and she always finds the gems. She's like, oh, this guy, we got— I'm gonna text him. So she's amazing, and she's the one who found you, and then she kept following up. So I'll give all the shoutouts to her. And for us, we just want to make it simple for people who are busy, and we want to help people not be ostriches anymore, which is you don't want to have your head in the sand, and you just want to know what are the simple things I can do to impact my planet because everybody cares, but nobody knows what to do. And sometimes the jargon and the data, and it just becomes so daunting that it's— people just give up and just put their head back in the sand. So I think that's the goal of Driving Impact, is to help people understand complicated climate-related topics.

You do good things. Keep it up.

Thank you so much for making the time to be with us today.