You're sabotaging your career with the 'Resting Business Face'! And you don't even know you're doing it" withLorraine K

I like the fact that you talk about online presence. I had a little bit of an aha moment when you talk about RBF, and I'm going to break it down for people. Resting business face. And I had a little bit of an aha moment because I realized 2 interviews ago I had a resting business face. And from what I understand, tell me if that's what it looks like. It's just like, yeah, yeah, I would say so. Oh my goodness, that's so bad. But it's a good aha moment because it's like, okay, well, I'll never do that again. It's not a good idea. So what do you suggest people do if they don't know what they're like? We're online, we're being recorded, then you don't know what to do with your body.

Yeah. So to your point, resting business face happens a lot when we are especially on virtual calls, especially when we're at home, we're more relaxed, we're like in our chair, we're leaning back and we're listening and not really paying attention to how we come across.

Hello, hello, hello, hello, Driving Impact Collective, The Top 5% Method. Today I'm super excited because I have in studio Lauren Cayley, and Lauren is the author of this book, which is incredible, which is called Unforgettable Presence. Get seen, gain influence, and catapult your career. And what we're interested in is catapulting our career. And that's what we're going to talk about today. And Lauren, welcome to Driving Impact.

So, so, so, so excited to be here today.

And there's so many things that are impressive about you, Lauren. And first, you have 300,000 followers on LinkedIn. So we're going to talk about that for sure. And also, you are a LinkedIn instructor. For your book, and I looked at the list and I was like, how did you do it? You have endorsements from Daniel Pink, which is like who published To Sell Is Human.

Yeah.

You have endorsements from the CEO of Zoom, of the CEO of Tinder, and of Kickstarter, Everett Taylor, which I love. He's like so wise and so brilliant.

Yes.

You also have DoorDash co-founder as an endorser. So everybody, if you don't have the book, Go check it out. So how did you do it, Lauren? Just tell us a little bit more.

Yeah, well, I appreciate you calling out those names. I was so honored to have them endorsing the book. I think it was a mix of things. So some of them I interviewed for the book and some of them it was like network, you know, friend of friend type thing. And sometimes it was just me reaching out to their press team. Sometimes it was me just like sending a cold message on LinkedIn. So like being willing to make the ask and put myself out there because I definitely ask people both for interviews and endorsements and either got ghosted or people said no. So you have to remember, like, yes, I got these incredible yeses, but there's also rejection and nos along the way and you can't get the yeses without the nos.

So you have to have the courage to go after what you want.

Exactly. Yeah.

So how many people did you ask?

Well, I interviewed about 3 dozen people for the book, so Gosh, and I asked— 3 dozen is already so many. I think I probably asked maybe like up to 50 people.

Okay, it's not bad.

It was kind of like, yeah, I got a lot of yeses, I would have to say. But it was just constantly like, oh, I'm talking to someone and then, oh, I have another idea of someone to ask. I wasn't like super methodical in terms of counting, but I felt like I was just— it might have been actually more just constantly reaching out as I had more ideas and then just hoping I could make sure that I included everyone and had enough space for everyone. Because after a certain point you have to be like, okay, I need to stop asking because I'm not going to have enough space to include everyone's quotes. And I wanted to make sure everyone had at least, you know, one mention in the book.

It's amazing. I like it because it feels like a sales job.

It is. Yeah, it is.

You have to learn how to sell yourself. It's amazing.

Exactly. Exactly. And there's like this element of social proof as well. So it's like you get one big name and that makes another big name interested to participate. So yeah, there's like some strategy and some sales involved, like you said.

That's so cool. So I got a disclaimer. I'm wearing a hat today and I got to— because we're going to talk about presence. And for women, when I started my podcasting journey, my first ever video that I posted online, somebody said, and it happens a lot to women, somebody said, who let her cut her bangs? Literally, because— and it's true that I didn't cut my initial bangs on my own, but I just adjusted them. I don't know if you see any difference between women and men when you talk about presence or executive presence. And types of comments that they get online?

I definitely think with executive presence, it's a lot more of a coded and loaded word in terms of, okay, have more executive presence. Well, what does that mean exactly? I interviewed Kim Scott for the book. She authored Radical Candor, and she said like when she was, you know, going through her career, a lot of the times when people would say to her, I want you to have more executive presence, it actually kind of secretly meant, oh, I wish you were more like a man. Are you sure? Showed more masculine qualities. And so that's what I'm really trying to do with this book is to say, you know, it's not just executive presence, like presence or professional presence is a broader thing. And it's something that all of us can and should have and can build up over time. And it's not something that's innate to us or only a specific type of quality or like gravitas or charisma, but in fact, executive presence is just one piece of the presence puzzle. And we also have presence as it pertains to video and virtual presence, our LinkedIn presence, you know, Presence I define in the book is both how and where you are seen. So are you showing up in the right places, the right spaces so that you are seen by the right people? So hopefully it's a much more approachable way to think about presence and gives people confidence like, yes, I can do this. It doesn't matter what I look like, my background, my seniority, like my industry, any of that. It's something that we all have and can continue to build and grow.

And that's extremely important because I remember I was— when I spent 10 years at Google and we had developed and created a women leadership program and we had 6 different development categories and one of them was executive presence. And when we surveyed the women, we asked them, which of these 6 do you want to join? Guess the 2 most popular categories where everybody was signing up.

And probably executive presence is one of them.

Yeah, one of them was executive presence. The second one was personal branding.

Yeah.

So everybody wanted to decipher how to become more sounding more like an executive. So I think the topic of your book is really on point. And on top of that, I like the fact that you talk about online presence. I had a little bit of an aha moment when you talk about RBF, and I'm going to break it down for people. I laughed so much. It's resting business face. And I had a little bit of an aha moment because I realized 2, 2 interviews ago I had a resting business face. And from what I understand, tell me if that's what it looks like. It's just like you're like, yeah, yeah, I would say so. Oh my goodness, that's so bad. And then I was like, I was reading it. I was like, oh no, I did that. Then it was, but it's It's a good aha moment because it's like, okay, well, never do that again. It's not a good idea. So what do you suggest people do if they don't know what they're like? We're online, we're being recorded, and you don't know what to do with your body.

Yeah. So to your point, resting business face happens a lot when we are especially on virtual calls, especially when we're at home or more relaxed or like in a chair or leaning back and we're listening and not really paying attention to how we come across. And so there's a few different things that you can do to help counteract that and show that you are engaged, that you're excited to be there. So the simplest one I always like to say is to smile when you're on a call, right? And I know it's like simple advice, but again, like we are— video mutes energy. We have to put in like a little bit something extra for it to really break through. So a smile is a universal sign, like we're happy, we're, you know, we wanna be here, we're enjoying ourselves. And so that positive energy makes such a difference versus everyone's on a call and they look like they're not wanting to be there. They would rather be anywhere else. So that's one thing. And then there's other things you can do too. Vocal affirmations. Vanessa Van Edwards, I interviewed in the book and she talks about these simple things like you're doing now, Katheline Jean-Pierre, like nodding your head, right? Like showing interest, like using your body language, your hands, or like just something that shows that you are there and that you are supporting the person as they're speaking. Smiling, eye contact, things like that. Small things, but they go a long way. And especially like any of us who have given a presentation virtually and we're just met with like that RBF and just that silence and that sort of like, you know, people not looking very engaged. That's like such a hard thing. So if you can be that person, just like give them a little something, it really helps.

Yeah. And I think the worst is when people are rolling their eyes. Yeah. Or it looks like they're rolling their eyes or I don't know if they're like thinking. If they're rolling their eyes, you feel like they're disengaged. And even if they're not disengaged, Yeah. So I think it's, um, I think that's an important one. In your book, you talk about developing an epic career brand, and that's like super important as well, because everybody wants to have this, I'm going to call it magnetic career brands, such that people tap you for opportunities or people think about you for promotions or even for if they move companies and they reach out to you. So how do you develop an epic career brand?

I think the first thing to think about when we think about a brand, and you sort of alluded to this earlier, Katheline Jean-Pierre, when you were talking about women want to learn executive presence and they want to learn personal branding. Well, first, personal branding, we have to understand that it's essentially our reputation. And so a lot of people, they hear a personal brand and they think like, ooh, like a brand for me? Like, isn't that for a company? Or I don't want to be that loud person who's always talking about myself and promoting myself. And you really have to understand that a brand is your reputation. And so we all already have a brand. Now you can either be intentional about it, develop it, grow it, strengthen it, or if you leave it to chance, I mean, other people are going to define it for you. Now in the book, I rebranded, rebranded personal brand as career brand because I think it more accurately describes what a brand is meant to do. It's meant to help your career. And so hopefully that's a little bit more digestible for the people who are a little bit concerned about the phrasing of personal brand. Now, a brand has 4 key elements to it, the EPIC career brand, as you mentioned. So EPIC stands for experiences, personality, identity, and community. So the first one, experiences, these are your personal and professional life experiences that make you who you are today. We have personality. So this can be like, I'm introverted. Maybe someone's extroverted. Someone's more serious. Someone's the fun, charming one.

You don't look like an introvert on LinkedIn.

Oh, really? Yeah, I know. That's something you say, right? Yeah, but definitely introverted. And then, you know, we all have like a set of soft skills that kind of make us who we are. And then identity. This can be our cultural background and it can also be the values that we operate by at work. So for example, Katheline Jean-Pierre, like if we were to work together on something, I would want to make it very clear that I am someone who cares a lot about relationships and who will follow through on my word. So that's something that's important to me and my brand. And then the last piece, the C, community, is where I think most people miss the mark. So, they come up and they think about, okay, this is my brand. But oftentimes, the network, if they don't see you the way that you want to be seen, that's not actually your brand, right? And so, you need to make sure that those two things are aligned. And if they're not aligned, figure out the gap. And maybe you're aspiring for something that's like too many steps ahead, right? So, you bring it back a little bit. Or you think you're coming across a certain way on LinkedIn, but your network is like, oh, actually those posts are not, you know, being perceived the way you think. So it's about constantly getting that feedback and checking in with people you trust, whether it be managers, peers, even family and friends.

So I like it. So EPIC, experience, and then P for personality, and then I for identity. Identity, and then C for community. So let's talk about community. Yeah, because that's where I can see it could go all over the place.

Yeah.

Because depending if people have— you have super fans. I mean, LinkedIn talks about you have super fans, but you also have naysayers. Like you think about the promotion committee sometimes and you have 3 people are going to be, yes, this person should be promoted. And 2 people are like, I'm not sure. So what if the community does not agree about your personal brand? What, what can you do about it? Because it's— I don't think it's always unanimous.

Yeah, I think the thing about a brand is it doesn't necessarily have to be unanimous. Like you want a majority of the people to see you a certain way. But if you do have naysayers or people who are just not positive, like I think that's different than having a clear brand. Like you can still have a clear brand and people don't like you. There's always going to be haters on, on social media. And so that's, that's fine, right? You want the majority of the people who are important to you, who might be colleagues, business partners, future clients, right, to see you and to understand what your brand is at a quick look, right? In a promotion setting, yeah, you might still have naysayers and people who say you're not ready. I interviewed Carlo Della Fuente. He is an executive at Google and he started off, you know, as a, as a junior person, he went up for a promotion and almost everyone said really great things, but there was a few people who, who said, oh, he has this quality or he, you know, he needs to work on this skill. He's not quite ready yet. And that derailed his application. And what Carlo did was he ended up going to more senior people who he knew through some of his employee resource group work, and they worked very closely with the decision makers. And then, you know, he, instead of leaning into, oh, I'm missing out on these skills, he instead said, oh, I'm going to lean into the positive parts and I'm going to get the right people behind me. And that's what matters when it comes to promotions and endorsements, right? Like, you can have people who are a little bit like, oh, maybe you're not ready, but you want the majority of the people and the right people, which is the important part, to understand your brand and understand the value you bring.

I think that's very strategic on how to navigate because trying to please everyone might be a huge effort. And I want to double-click on the hateration. So one of the guests that came to Driving Impact talked about hateration is admiration. So sometimes you have naysayers. And what I've discovered in my 20-year career is sometimes people who actually are naysayers they admire a portion of you that they wish they had, which is sometimes something to keep in mind because sometimes, like, be like, I coach someone and they were very, very bold and people felt uncomfortable but secretly wished they could. Yeah, because I spoke to them and they're like, wow, it's kind of inspiring. I'm like, really? But why do you always complain about this person? Well, so it's like understanding there's always two sides of a story as well, and then keeping the positive to kind of like reinforce the goodness that you have in you. Thank you for sharing. Now I want to go to the crux of what people really want to hear about is how— what are your 3 tips to accelerate? So the catapult your career portion of the title of your book, what are your 3 tips to accelerate your career?

Oh gosh, there are so many.

So also, if you have more, we'll take more.

Okay, well, I'll start off with, you know, I think the first 3 chapters of the book are very foundational and like a great place to start. So, first, mindset is very important and understanding and career brand is part of that, but your mindset and understanding that you have to be really proactive when it comes to your career. You have to become the CEO of your own career. When I started working, there was just so many assumptions I made that I shouldn't have made. Oh, I work here, I've worked here for a few years, I'll get promoted just because I've worked here for a while. Or I'm working so hard, I'm doing the big projects, but oh, I actually needed to advocate for myself. Oh, I don't need to network when I'm in a job right now because I'm not looking. Right. So there's all these preconceived notions, wrong notions that we have about— yeah, Katheline, you're nodding about— yes. So like the mindset shift of understanding, okay, I can't let things happen to me. I need to like go out and get them and be proactive. And so I think that was a huge shift for me and made me feel more confident, like, oh, I can have some control over my future. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing, the second chapter is around video presence. Now, a lot of people sometimes they'll say to me like, oh, video presence. Like, haven't we all figured that out already? Like now that we're so many years after COVID and you get on calls sometimes with people and you're like, Whoa, no, like we have not figured it out. And some people are still not leaving the best impression on video. And so use that as your superpower. Use video as your competitive advantage to look professional, to create a really positive impression in people's minds. It doesn't take that much to do it, but when you actually are intentional about it, and intentionality is a theme that runs throughout my book, but when you are intentional about it, it makes a huge difference. And then the third thing that you can do is start being active on LinkedIn. And I know there's a reputation that LinkedIn is, you know, just the job site, but I mean, you know, Katheline Jean-Pierre, it's like so much more now. It's our, our virtual water cooler, our virtual landing page, and really our ultimate virtual office. And so you want to be seen at the office, right? The virtual office. So be active on LinkedIn, connect with others, share your expertise, there will be opportunities that come your way that like you can't even imagine right now for yourself. But if you're consistent and you show up and you give back, like really amazing things can happen.

I mean, 100%. I mean, I'm, I'm a LinkedIn superfan, so it's very— I mean, LinkedIn, like in terms of audience, there's— it's the highest networked individuals of the internet. And I'm coming from a perspective where I spent 10 years at Google. Where the maximum net worth you could target was $150,000 in the household. And then on LinkedIn, and I'm going to geek out, so I'm going to stop talking about it because— so on LinkedIn, you have all the founders and the CEOs, you have all of the investors. And I was the— when I was there, I was the managing director of financial services. So you could target all, all of the founders that had exited their companies. You could target— so you could target all the very high net worth individuals. So it's depending what your goal is, you have a lot of influential people there. That's an opportunity to like, and I'm talking about venture capital investors, I'm talking about CEOs, I'm talking about founders, etc. So I like your top 3 tips to accelerate your career. So I want to hear a bit more about like, are there any moves like power moves specifically that so you talked about like making sure that you advocate for yourself. And that's important because I— what I've seen in my career as a people manager, manager of managers, is that, like, there's different types of people. I've managed different types of people, and some people was like, Katheline, I want to— I want to get promoted. And then these people will just stay there. And then every one-on-one, it's like, where are we with my promotion? I'm like, we talked about it last week. Yeah, every single week in the agenda. Yeah.

There's a balance, right?

Right.

Yeah.

So there's people— there are people who are very, very good at advocating for themselves. And then there's some people who are not. Like, they talk about it, they're uncomfortable, and they're very like lottie dottie. That's how I call it. And then they like— and that's very dangerous. And sometimes it's women and minorities that are like, oh, we don't want— so it's very important, especially if you're underrepresented, to advocate for yourself. Yeah. So how do you suggest people bring the topic of getting promoted, especially if they're uncomfortable, or I don't know if they're introverted, or what are the different ways you think people can advocate for themselves and even eventually be on the promotion list? Because it's a journey.

Yeah, it's a journey. So the first thing, again, like mindset, you are going to care the most about your career. Like, even if you have the best manager, they have their own careers, they have the careers of their teams, they're managing up and figuring out how to deal with their manager. So there's a lot going on in the workplace. And so to just think that saying it once is enough, it's not going to be enough. Now, maybe like your teammate Katheline Jean-Pierre, like you don't need to mention it every single week, but you need to mention it more than one, right? Because people forget things. Like just think about all the things your team has told you today and like, you know, if I ask you to recall them right now, like you're going to forget things. And so that mindset piece and understanding, like you have your own best interests in mind. So it's really up to you to make it known. That's super important. And then I think there's a shift in terms of, you know, thinking about when we advocate for ourselves. I think it can be uncomfortable for introverts, for underrepresented groups, especially, you know, like I'm— have an Asian American background and like talking about your work and not not being humble, just like it feels like weird, but there are things that you can do. So for example, framing your results in terms of learnings and wins, right? So learnings more specifically like, oh, here's what I learned doing this project. I think this applies to you because of X, Y, and Z reason. So you're still being helpful, collaborative, but you're still showing the work that you did. You can adjust the language that you use. So there are studies or data published in Harvard Business Review that shows that when you use more collaborative language like we, our, us, it shows you as more of a leader versus people who are just like, I, I did this, I did that. Like you're actually seen as more junior. And so when you can lift up other members of the team, you know, I think it shows you as a leader, you're creating a strong team culture. And especially if you're leading a team, people know the work ultimately, you know, sort of gets credited back to you as a team lead, but you're giving people credit and you're, and you're building people up. So there's things like that that you can try. And then also, you know, if you're uncertain, tie your results to any sort of company data, bottom line goal information that they have shared with you because leadership, they want to know that like they will be upset if you are contributing to the bottom line and no one knows about it, right? So to frame it more like that way, like, oh, leadership, this is very important to them. And if you're connecting the data to whatever it is that their goal is, like no one's gonna fault you for that. And people want, more and more of that. And, and yeah, that's, you know, those are some, some tips that I think are really helpful and can hopefully get people a little bit more comfortable and it'll get more comfortable as you do it over time. I know it's a little bit uncomfortable at first.

Yeah. And I think it's, those are important tips because your manager wants to look good and their manager wants to look good as well. So any, any data and evidence that you can bring up the line, I think those are, those are like important tips.

Yeah, that's a great point. Like, help your manager, help your leaders look good. They will like you more for helping them look good too.

100%. So we're how many months? January, February, March, April. So we're 4 months into 2025. There's, I believe there's 29,000 people who already have been laid off and 6,000 of them was 2 weeks ago. It was, uh, in Microsoft. So, and it's, it's now layoffs are becoming a common occurrence. It's not something that's, that's not going to happen, especially with like the world is changing, but also AI is becoming more integrated. People are starting to have more like chief strategy officers or chief information officers. Their job is to figure out how to integrate AI. And then they're starting to lay off people even more now. And growth is not as well. As obvious as it was before COVID Now, with layoffs looming over a lot of workers, tech and non-tech, we hear a lot about tech, but there's also non-tech workers being laid off. The question for you is, how do you bounce back from being laid off? Like, do you have any tips?

I got laid off at the end of 2022. And it's crazy because at that time, you know, it was really bad already. And you think, oh, this is, you know, kind of the end of the wave. And it's crazy. It's still happening.

But it's just the beginning.

Yeah, just yeah, seriously. So for me, what I I found really helpful and actually have a LinkedIn Learning course on navigating life after layoff that I created after my layoff, because I wanted to help more people. So, the first thing I think is really important is to take some time to process what's happening to you. It is so easy to want to like jump and natural too, to want to jump in like, oh my gosh, I have to find another job. I have to figure this out ASAP. And I'm not saying you have to wait like months to figure it out. But a few days, a week, just some time to decompress, to process, because a layoff is a very traumatic event. And for some people, like they've tied their brand so closely to the company, it can be very unstabilizing to, to not have that routine, to not be associated with that company anymore. So to let yourself feel all your emotions, I think is really critical. And then think about what makes sense for you to do next. What did you like about your last job? What didn't you like? Is there another thing that you might want to do in the future? To be a lot more targeted with your job search is going to lead to better results. I know a lot of people, they just apply, you know, to every single job out there. That's not going to be effective. That's going to make you burn out super fast. And so how can you be targeted with what you want and then work from there? Oh, who in my network do I know who works at my dream company? Oh, who do I know who is in this role who can help me maybe make a pivot? And so intentionality, that's just like a theme of life, but like intentional, thoughtful, it's going to get you farther. It might make you feel like a little slower at first, but ultimately it's going to make you move faster later on.

And those are very wise tips because I know some of my friends, they had spent 12 years in a company.

It's hard.

And you don't get to say goodbye.

Yeah.

And suddenly you can't get in the computer. You don't even know what's happening. So I think some of them, it's very rough. And do you think there's any warning signs for some, like in your case that, yeah.

There were some. So I kind of naively was like, oh, maybe it won't happen to the company, but it was just happening to so many companies around us. I was like, there's, you know, realistically there was no way it wasn't going to hit the company I was at, but there were certainly some warning signs. You know, you can kind of like look at the reports they put out, right?

Quarterly earnings.

Yeah, like earnings and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can look at those and see like how retention looking, you know, you kind of read between the lines to see how things are. The HR leader at the time was sort of going around to meet all the teams to ask like what everyone's working on. So you kind of like, I'm like, I kind of asked, I was like, what is this for? And she's like, oh, I just want to, you know, get a better pulse on what everyone's doing. And so things like that, you can kind of just, you can make an educated guess about what's going on, but you hope it's not going to be you, right? And sort of you I think the thing that, you know, I didn't realize at the time is like the higher you go up, the more likely it is that you're going to get laid off because you're like the more expensive person. So that was kind of like, oh, duh, that makes sense. But because I hadn't experienced a layoff before, that hadn't really crossed my mind.

No, I think those are sound advice. And also like, is the company able to hit their numbers and targets? What is their ecosystem? Look like. Yeah, those are all great indicators and being very realistic. If somebody senior tells you the writing on the wall and you don't want to hear about it, then it's like, people have told you. Yeah, some of us are very late on LinkedIn. And that's some of us, it's me. So my career, in my career, I was, I spent 10 years at Google, I was in sales, I was heads down, hitting those numbers, right? Not being laid off at all because I was focused on hitting my numbers. Yeah. And then moved to LinkedIn and had an epiphany because suddenly my job was to advise all these C-levels who wanted to build community and become thought leaders. And I was like, oh my gosh, look at this platform. It's incredible. So first, I want to hear, how did you get to like— I went this morning, it's 321,000 followers on LinkedIn. And what is your advice for the little people like me at 9,000?

Hey, that's really good.

Yeah, yeah, the little ones like me. I want to get to half a million tomorrow.

Well, I wouldn't call 9,000 little at all, so I think you're doing great. But, you know, I joined LinkedIn at a really exciting time where they were bringing content to the platform. So I was a founding editor at LinkedIn. It's also— it's known as the LinkedIn News team now, but You know, I would— that was the team that brought the LinkedIn Influencers to the platform. It's now LinkedIn Top Voices. We worked on, uh, like the LinkedIn Top Companies, Top Startups list, et cetera, et cetera, video series. And so I was one of the first people like creating content on the platform and really putting high quality content out there. And because we were the editors, people would turn to us and follow us to get, you know, the latest business news. So I feel very fortunate about that. It was quite interesting because after I left LinkedIn, so I was there for 6 years. After I left LinkedIn, I actually stopped posting because if we're talking about career brand, I had tied my identity so closely to LinkedIn. And after leaving LinkedIn, I was like, oh, what do I even talk about right now? Like, I don't even know what to post. So I took a break. And then as I started doing more public speaking, that's when I started posting again and sort of getting into a cadence and figuring out what I wanted to talk about. But it was, you know, from that moment where I think consistency was really key. I think engaging with the community. So comments are a very powerful thing. And then, you know, foundationally just making sure my LinkedIn profile and my LinkedIn presence was up to snuff and that I had a great background photo and I had a filled out about section and my experiences section was robust. And, you know, I'm just making sure people who go to your page can understand who you are and, You give them a reason, you know, to follow you through your content and through your, your overall presence. And so I would say those are the main things and, you know, kind of a, an add-on to the consistency piece is you don't always get a lot of engagement on LinkedIn. And I feel like LinkedIn is a, a longer game than perhaps some of the other social media platforms. Mm-hmm. And what happens is a lot of people give up because it's maybe not, you know, the immediate sort of dopamine hit they expect right away.

Yeah.

So, so you see a lot of people dropping off. So if you can be that person to stay consistent, to push through it, to iterate based on, you know, what your audience is telling you, that's where it becomes very powerful. But a lot of people give up too soon. But they're, you know, if you can stick with it, I think that's when you start seeing results. And then you get messages from interesting people and you get invited on podcasts and you get to write articles, you know, whatever it is that your goal is. When that starts happening, then that's like kind of the payoff, not just like social media metrics.

Yeah, I have a lot of follow-up questions because there's no— I think there's no hard truths, and that's, that's where like I'm very curious. I think consistency, right? So for some people it's like once a week. Some people say— and the creators have their whole— there's a whole, there's a whole chatter on the platform. If you follow Jasmine Aliq, he's gonna say something. If you follow Somebody else is going to say something else. Everybody has their own secret sauce. I think some people say you have to post 4 times a week, but then if you want to be a top voice, you have to post once a week minimum. So what is your perspective for people who want to grow on the platform? How many times should they post?

I do believe, at least last I checked, that LinkedIn suggests 4 times a week. However, I think if you're just starting off, 4 times a week is a lot. And that will lead to burnout. So what I say to people is— you're laughing really hard. Is that what you tried to do?

I thought I was going to burn out a couple of weeks ago. I was like, that's it, I'm dying. And then I kept going.

Yeah, you're going to burn out. How many times for a week are you posting or trying to post?

Now I post daily, but I think I found my system. Okay, good.

Okay, so yeah, so like 4 times a week. I'm like, that's so hard for someone who's like not used to posting at all. So I actually say start with the lowest possible expectation you can have for yourself. So let's say once a month is what I usually recommend. You can post once a month, right? You can find a post to make and you're going to do that, no problem. And then you're going to say, okay, maybe I can do twice a month. That wasn't so bad doing the once. And then you'll build up from there. You'll build the muscle and over time you'll find the cadence that works for you. For Top Voice, yes, it does need to be once a week, but yeah, you have to find what makes sense for you because yeah, it has to be something that is sustainable. And I have a content calendar, but if I'm moving things around and I don't have an idea for the 6th out of the 7 days of the week or the 5th out of the 7 days of the week, I'm just like, whatever. Don't be so hard on yourself. It doesn't have to be so militant, I guess.

You don't have creator anxiety?

Not anymore. I think after a certain point you post enough where it's like you kind of care a little bit less, I guess. I definitely, you know, have had anxiety at different points, but now I'm like, it is what it is, you know, you just got to keep chugging along.

Okay. Warming up the feed, that whole thing that you have to put, you have to go 15 minutes. That one, that's the one that leads to burnout. If you could just post and just go and come back later and reply to comments that you have, people say you have to go and 15 minutes before posting, even if your post is scheduled, why don't they know that you're going to post and just organize the algorithm to just say that, hey, Katheline Jean-Pierre is about to post? Why do I have to go and comment or like and do all this shenanigans?

Yeah, I don't know. The thing about the algorithm, I always get questions about it. Maybe, maybe you have to do that. I don't necessarily do that. And I think there's just so many things you can do and all these algorithm reports and this and that, but an algorithm will inherently change and grow just depending on, you know, what it's seeing. So I say spend your time focusing on quality content. You definitely should comment at some point and just like engage with other people, but does it have to be as prescriptive as I have to comment for 15 minutes before my post goes live?

I don't think so.

Personally, personally, that's, that's my thought.

But have you ever done that? Have you ever warmed up your feed 15 minutes before? No, I don't think I have. Oh, that's the part of me that's I don't think I have.

I'll usually comment like after my post goes live because I'm like on online at that point, but not before. I don't think I ever have actually. You're living a good life, not getting that like creator anxiety from having to be online.

Yeah, I think I took one creator program when I was at LinkedIn because it's not at LinkedIn that people have said that, right? It's one creator program I took online. Sure. Anywho, any format on LinkedIn that you think that new people, beginners, should definitely adopt if they want to grow?

I think most people will do a text post first, which is great. I don't know if this is necessarily like the way to grow, but I think it will give you a nice confidence boost. I like to say for new people who are new to posting, doing polls I think are really great because it's like an easy way to—

wow.

Yeah, you don't see them as much. And then like people, it's very easy for people to engage, right? Because they're voting. And so you're definitely going to see some sort of engagement when you make a poll. And so I think that's like kind of a nice confidence booster. And then I like to say, okay, tie it to what you're trying to learn more about. Oh, what days are you most active on LinkedIn? And then you'll see your audience, oh, maybe like Wednesdays are the best days, right? Because everyone's online. Oh, I'm thinking about, you know, I'm passionate about these 3 topics. Which one do you want to hear about first? Oh, people seem to really want to hear about being an introvert, or people seem to really want to learn about AI or product management. Maybe I'll start there first. So it kind of has that like twofold benefit of giving you that engagement. You'll start seeing votes and then giving you data and information that you can use to inform your content plan.

And then last question on that topic, because I don't want it to become overkill. So people still feel that it's cringe when you get started. And I'm just going to say it, I was terrorized. Least. Yeah, when I started, when I moved from Google to LinkedIn. Yeah, I didn't post when I was at Google because I was just terrified of like, what if I say something that's wrong? What if I just— you, when you don't post, you become very self-conscious. And now I just don't care. I can post like, yeah, oh, the sky is blue today. And I just, I'm free. Yeah, yeah, whatever, I don't care.

That should be your post for tomorrow.

No, I have a selfie of your book, so I'm gonna post that. I don't know when, maybe tomorrow. Okay, so what What would you say? What is your advice for someone who feels that it's cringe to post on LinkedIn and feel self-conscious because it's your professional network, because there's your boss and there's the other boss's boss and there's like the CEO of like all the most important people that you know are there. It's not like you're on IG on an unknown name, right? And that's why people are scared of posting.

Yeah, well, first, I'll normalize it that posting on LinkedIn can be a very nerve-wracking thing exactly for the reasons you just said, Katheline. Even when I was at LinkedIn, I like to tell this story. Even when I was at LinkedIn and I had to post, it always took— I was never like, I'm just going to post and it's going to be super fast. Like, I waited. I was like, just reading every single word. Like, you just, you get nervous, right? You're like, I want to sound smart, this and that. And so to your question about like, not feeling like it's cringe, I think there's a few different things that come with that. So one is sometimes that cringe piece is like, because you're associating it with being an influencer or trying to be a certain thing that maybe you're not. And so I think if you can kind of break up that idea and simply be in service of the community, like, I want to figure out how to help people or how to teach people something I know, or just to share a personal experience, I think that gets rid of a lot of that. That cringe and sort of that mental barrier that might happen. And then second to that is it is cringe sometimes when people are doing a bunch of humble bragging here and there. So you can do it, but balance it out with, you know, I talk about personal, educational, professional are the 3 main content types plus promotional, but lean into the first 3 first. Do more of that, less of number 4, and it will be a much better balance where it doesn't feel like you're again, just trying— you're just there to talk about yourself.

I do the opposite of humble bragging. I talk about very vulnerable moments.

Yeah.

Which sometimes I feel like, oh, I should delete this. Like, things like— I think one post I have was like when I was begging for a job. It's like I was nervous and I was desperate.

Yeah.

Oh my, why am I putting that? And this other guy does not have to do that, and he's getting— and I think what is cringe is because if we write and we want to perform, I don't want to have 9 likes. I want to have a lot of likes. And I think that's why if we feel like we're writing content because we want to perform, performing because we want some vanity metrics. And I thought I read a post I thought was super interesting because this one guy said, oh, I was on LinkedIn a long time ago. And then I was— I contacted someone about a post that didn't have a lot of likes, but because what I went through his profile and I like what he offered after reading the post. And that's the value of LinkedIn. I think that mindset shift, I think, is interesting. I mean, for everybody, because at the end of the day, what are we trying to do? Well, everybody's selling something, right? To sell is human. Like, you're selling a book. Yeah, I'm selling a podcast.

Yeah. And to remember that the vanity metrics, so to speak, those are nice, right? The dopamine hit. But if it's, you know, a million of the wrong person and they're just always going to just be liking your thing but never engage with you further, that's not really an audience you want, right? You'd rather have the 100 really engaged people who stick with you and want to whatever, buy your next course or subscribe to your newsletter or attend your LinkedIn Live shows. So just to remember that like quality is sometimes better than or often better than quantity.

Yeah, I agree. The future belongs to the 1000 super fans. And what gave you the courage to launch yourself on LinkedIn? Like just to, to own your voice? I know you were part of the editorial team.

Yeah, I think it really— it took a little bit of time to get comfortable, but something really amazing happens when you post consistently on LinkedIn and you're really like invested in the community. I feel like I gained so much confidence in my voice being active on LinkedIn, and then it really translated to my corporate job, which was very cool because you don't necessarily think that those two things are connected. But to be more comfortable expressing your voice and finding your voice, that translates to a corporate job and people in corporate. If, you know, your listeners are corporate, they see you on LinkedIn and like you, you, you have a stronger presence in their minds. Like they see you as like sort of a bigger, bigger than life person or more of a leader, right? Because you're willing to put yourself out there and to, to share your story. And so I think there's a lot of benefits that have come with that, but it took a little bit of time. So in my book, I talk about the 4 E's to posting on LinkedIn. So explore, establish, envision, excel. And so excel was like 100+ posts. I mean, it's going to change for each person, but sort of like a loose guideline about how often you kind of need to work. It's a muscle, right? Work the muscle to sort of build that, build that confidence.

Practice, practice. And then the outcome is confidence and then also perception and like executive presence and personal branding. Voilà.

Yeah.

Something that's important because like at Driving Impact, the Top 5% Method, we believe that you can drive more impact in your life if you're to have a good alignment in different components like health, mental health, also career navigation, financial health, relationships. So how do you stay zen when things get chaotic? And I don't know how your book launch has been, but I follow different people who have launched books, and, and I— some of them like, like, oh my God, I haven't slept in 3 days. So how do you stay zen and stay grounded? Do you have any spiritual practices? Or I know you do Muay Thai. Is it my time?

My time, yeah. I had to say no to something. So there could have been a world in which I did every single thing I wanted for the book launch, but to me it was more important to maintain my sanity and get some sleep, take care of myself. And so during the book launch, it was pretty hectic. I made a post a few days ago, like, I didn't work out at all these past 2 and a half months. There's too much work to do and I was just too tired. Now I'm getting back into it, which is great. But even with that, I was still not doing everything I wanted to and I still had more work to do. So I think for me, I always will try to stretch, do a daily stretch as I'm winding down at night before sleeping. Now I'm trying to do more exercising, like more yoga as well each week. And I think when things get too crazy, just to remind myself that it's okay that not everything gets done now. And then, you know, prioritization is so important. So yeah, I think just that's like good advice generally for my business. Like I'm kind of in this growth stage now and I'm having to say no to more things and prioritize. But I think that's how things, how things naturally should go, right? If you wanna take care of yourself and, and spend time with friends and family, like You can't say yes to everything. And, you know, as long as you're respectful and polite when people reach out, hopefully, you know, they understand. But that's sort of like my, my goals for this year. Just say no to more things.

Oh, it's amazing. Every yes is a trade-off.

Yeah.

And thank you for saying yes to us. I think it was a perfect alignment in terms of the topic and the audience.

Yes.

And what the audience is looking for. And if you haven't grabbed a copy, grab a copy of Unforgettable Presence. And I have a little last question for you. Yeah, because, um, but a quick one.

Yeah, it's—

I'm gonna read like the beginning of this. Sure. It's, uh, page 103 about meetings, because everybody's hating on meetings. Yeah. Okay, so when my coworker invited me to a 45-minute meeting with no agenda, and I was laughing, I breathed out a sigh of frustration. All I had to go off was a vague calendar title and a list of attendees. There was no Slack message giving me context, no email explaining how I was meant to contribute. So what's your recommendation to run an effective meeting? Because I mean, we know that most meetings are not run effectively. Any tips that you have?

Yeah, yeah. I think meetings are one of the most powerful ways to build your presence and one of the most like low-hanging fruit because we have so, like you said, we have so many of them and they're so bad. So if you can be the person who knows how to run a good meeting, like instantly, like the positive impression, people are going to view you as a leader. And so I would say with meetings, the— and referencing that story, preparing ahead of time and actually thinking about what you want to come to the meeting about, what the goal is, who to invite, having a clear agenda, like so much work should happen before the meeting to make the actual meeting run well and to avoid that issue that so many of us have where Okay, we just had the meeting, but because it wasn't very organized, let's just have another meeting to follow up on, you know, something like, let's, you know, have a meeting to fix the meeting. I know. Oh gosh. But yeah, the prep work, prep work is really key.

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much. If you haven't grabbed a copy, grab a copy of Lauren Kelly, Unforgettable Presence, and I'll see you online on LinkedIn. Have a good one. And thank you again. Bye-bye. Bye.