Elevate Yourself, Elevate Others, and Amplify Good | Chris Cooper | Finding Brave Ep. 334

Hello everyone. This is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created this show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of finding brave and offer their best strategies for building your Hi everyone. Kathy Caprino here. Thank you for tuning into Finding Brave today. I hope you love the episode. In these changing and uncertain times, many professionals and leaders are rethinking what they want from their work in leadership, but often they aren't sure what the best next steps would be. If that resonates with you, I'd love to offer some support. In my 60-minute career consultation, you'll complete my career path self-assessment, and together we'll explore the key themes of your professional journey— where you've been, where you are now, and what you're hoping to create in your next chapter. We'll identify what's working, what isn't, and map out practical next steps so you leave our session with greater clarity, renewed confidence, and a stronger sense of self- trust about how to move forward. At the heart of all my coaching work is breakthrough, helping you leave each conversation feeling clearer, stronger, and more confident about the path ahead. And this week you can take 10% off any of my coaching programs with coupon code BRAVEPOD10. For more information, visit kathykaprino.com/career-help or click the link in the show notes. I'd truly love to be of help. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. I've missed you all. This is coming out in September, but in the summer I took a little bit of a break. I really missed it. I missed connecting with my amazing guests, and today is no exception. Oh, I'm so beyond honored and excited to have the wonderful Kris Cooper here with us today, all the way from the UK.

Hello.

Chris, thank you for taking the time. I'm so appreciative. I cannot wait to dive into this conversation.

Thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

Oh, what a beautiful voice, as we spoke about. So we are talking about a lot of things, but where's my beautiful title here? We are talking about how to elevate yourself, elevate others, and amplify good. And I do have to share that And then I'll tell you all about Chris. Your bio's amazing. The wonderful Judy Robinette connected us.

Hmm.

And Judy, I have known Judy, I think maybe more than 10 years when I feature her in another amazing woman in my Forbes blog. But I will never forget how generous she was to me from the minute that that interview happened. You know, she did things that I've never seen before, like just shooting me an email, here's what's up with me, what's up you and what do you need? Who's ever asked me that question? I was like, what do I need? I don't even know what I need, but I better figure it out and tell her. Anyway, whenever Judy suggests somebody to connect with, I know they're of that same ilk, just incredibly generous. And knowing you, you know, as I do now, and your work, you are that.

Thank you. She's an absolute delight, Judy. We've become great friends over the years, and I love her her generosity and giving and connecting. And we, we share some, some values together. And I knew as soon as she introduced you that I should talk with you, and because I knew we would be of a similar mindset.

That's so lovely. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Judy. All right, everyone, I want you to understand Chris's background, what he's focused on now. It's so inspiring. Chris is the founder of the Elevation Collective. A carefully curated international community of wise, heart-led leaders and changemakers dedicated to amplifying good in the world. The collective incubates and accelerates initiatives that create meaningful, positive, and lasting impact. It is also an antidote to the loneliness that can sometimes occur while pursuing courageous objectives. We probably could add Especially in the age of AI as well, right? He's also the host of the Business Elevation Show. You've gotta check this out. This is one of the, if not the longest running business podcasts in the world. Wow. Broadcasted weekly since 2011 to audiences over 50 countries through his brand, Chris Cooper Business Elevation. Chris is a highly respected people consultant, behavioral strategist, mentor, coach, and speaker developing leaders, empowering teams, and creating highly engaged business cultures. There's so much more going on here, so read the bio. And Chris, you— I think you're the author of 3 books, is that not right?

Well, I, I've contributed to some, um, books. I've written ebooks, but I don't count those. And I, I, I have one co-authored published book by Penguin Random House.

Yes, The Power to Get Things Done, right?

Yeah, whether you feel like it or not.

Can I read that? Can I read that right now? Oh my gosh. All right, now let— we have so much to talk about, but I want to start with, you know, I'm a former therapist and former corporate director and VP, but I'm so fascinated by the beginnings people had and what drew them to what they're doing now, maybe 40 years later, 50 years later. Can you talk about— so I can see in every word you share and everything you do, elevating yourself, others, and amplifying good. It's kind of a theme in everything you do. Can you say where that started? Do you have a clear sense? Of course you do.

Yeah, well, I came from a steel town in the north of England called Scunthorpe.

Gunthorpe?

Scunthorpe. S-C-U-N-T-H-O-R-P-E. So not the most beautiful place in the world. There was an expectation. My grandfather was a steelworker, my father was a steelworker, and the expectation probably was that I would go and do the same because that's what people in that town did, really. And I'll never forget going to the steelworks with my dad when he was 30. I was 13 or 14, and there was an open evening, and they were kind of getting you ready really for maybe coming in at 16, 17 years of age. And my dad took me around the steelworks, and it was, it was dark, and it was noisy, and there was molten metal flying around. And he showed me a train where he'd had to pull body parts from underneath the train train, um, because of, you know, health and safety wasn't that great in those days. And I'd heard stories about, um, what happened when you joined and the kind of rituals that went on. And, and afterwards, my dad took me with all the lots of other fathers and their sons into a room.

And how old were you, Chris?

I was 13 or 14. And a very tall man walked in, and I remember my dad straightening up, and he walked over to me and he said, Hello, son. When you're older, are you going to come and work for us? And I— my response just came out to me was, you must be joking. And, um, my dad was fuming. And because I— this person was actually the CEO of British Steel, and my dad had never met him before. And on the way home, he was, he was quite upset with me. And then at the end of it, apparently what I said was, but Dad, you're not happy there. Why would I want to work there? And I think the first time you had this discussion with him? I think so, yeah. You know, my dad would work double shifts so that we could have holidays. Now let's be honest, he did enjoy some of his work, but he was stuck between the shop floor and the leaders as an electrical foreman. And it was very tough, a very, very tough environment doing very tough work. And I think what I had seen was how tired he was. You know, I would see him on night— he was on night shifts, so I had to be quiet, um, during the day because he was asleep, because he'd just done maybe a double shift of 16 hours to earn enough money so we could have holidays and things like that. And I think what it did in me is it firstly, there was something in me that needed to get away. So I was the first one to go to university and I was the first one to get away and I kind of developed a career really. But what I also saw in me was The desire to help organizations and people create environments that people were happy and fulfilled. And I realized that's a theme through my career. And I did, we'll maybe talk about, I did some roles that were maybe also, today, I mean, selling confectionery, selling beer, working for a food and restaurant chain, selling, working in roles internationally around biscuits and snack foods and things like that. It was at the time, it was brilliant and brilliant experience, but maybe not what I would choose to do necessarily now in terms of contributing to a better world, if you know what I mean. But I think, you know, I think that's a decision maybe we all face that maybe we could do even more worthy things as we get a little bit older.

What a story. I want to talk for an hour about how that didn't come up before you went on this visit. You know, it's interesting that you didn't tell that to Dad. Like, I know you're taking me here, and I'm guessing you're thinking I'm coming in your footsteps, but it didn't come up, I guess, huh? Until you blurted it out.

I think my dad probably secretly hoped that I didn't have to do what he did, really. But actually, I think my grandfather— I remember him saying, what are you doing going on to further education? You could be in the steelworks earning money now. And it was just kind of narrow in terms of the The thinking on what was possible, you know, where, where actually by getting out of that environment, there's, you know, so much more potential in the world. And I had to discover that for myself, really.

Wow, what a story. What a story. Can you talk to us then about— you've done leadership development. You, you say that it's important not to light a fire underneath someone, but within. Can you talk about what you think is most pressing even today about why that isn't happening? What has to happen differently? I mean, you've started this amazing curated collection of people who clearly are doing what you're talking about. What do you see? And we didn't— I didn't prep you. I'm just riffing here. What do you see is missing? That we have to have these conversations.

Yeah, I think— I mean, this has been interesting. I've made a career over the last 20 years helping companies through that journey, and there's still organizations like that, I suspect. I was fortunate, particularly when I worked for the Mars organization, that I also saw— it was an amazing company, actually, and there were fantastic people that you could learn from. I mean, I took— I think it was 7 interview stages for me to get in. So it was quite a journey, and they were very good in terms of people and kind of development. So I had that as a realization of partly what was possible. I remember one CEO saying to me as I was working on suggesting a program for them, he said, Chris, you know, you live in Never Neverland. And I said, well, actually, I've been to Never Neverland and it exists. So I had that reference.

What did that mean?

Well, that basically meant, you know, he was, he was saying that, you know, to be able to do what you want to do in terms of our people is not possible. Forget it.

You know, they don't have the capability. We don't have the— forget what it is. Just get the work done.

And actually, that was enough for him to say, okay, just get on with it. Um, it was good. But, um, I, I think, um, what I've realized is maybe there were some organizations— it depends upon the motivations of the company. You know, if it's about, you know, delivering shareholder value, there's a lot of pressure, um, with the system that we're in. If the organization's really run by maybe financial people who are less focused on the human aspects and more about the numbers, you know, the, the bottom line around, um, you know, saving costs and all of those sorts of things. You know, I think you, with the styles of people running companies, it impacts the culture. And the culture is the way that we do things around here. And I've, and I found myself when I got to, I got to work in, you know, well-known banks and all sorts of— I've worked in 20 insurance companies, and so I've been through a lot of different, um, environments in those, in those times. And, you know, you'd sometimes go into a place and just your energy walking through a room would be enough to turn everyone's heads because you're in a different space. Um, so I think one of my realizations is, is a key kind of theme through my career is a realization that it's all about energy. It's about, um, the leadership of the organization And their energy and their mindset impacts the culture and the behavior with others and sets the tone that replicates through the company. So, you know, I think we've probably heard this before, but you usually have to start at that level and help them with a paradigm shift to be able to make transformation. Then of course, we're in an interesting world right now. You mentioned AI.

Tell us what you feel about this personally and how you help people.

Well, I think with regards to AI, and it's something that my community, we're talking a lot about at the moment, and we've just got a world-leading expert actually just joining us, which is very exciting.

You got who to join?

We've got a real leading expert on AI who's joining us as a member, and he's helping us around the way that we utilize it. His name's called Bennett Borden. He's a great guy. You know Bennett?

I'm gonna fall over just because I have had Bennett on the show.

Have you?

And I just wanna say this. I, while you were speaking, the synchronicities going on in my life, it's crazy. He said, I had to write it down. He, and I don't wanna hijack what you were saying, but he and his wife live by a mantra. All is cared for in my space. All is cared for in my space. I cry at that. And here, you know, he is the world's foremost expert He's advised 15 countries' ministers of— ministries of AI and every major AI creator, and he's a lawyer. You would expect differently, I think.

You would.

You would not expect that person, Oxford, where CIA came and knocked on his door to say, all is cared for in my space. I just knew it was going to be Bennett, who was in your amazing group.

Yeah, so he's just— he, he, he— I had him as a guest actually. I interviewed him as well, and he, he joined one of our events and, uh, and was one of the 2 experts that I interviewed in front of an audience. And he just loved what we were doing and, um, has a very— he's a very compassionate man as well. So he's really leaning into and supporting our community, uh, which is— and joining as a member in October, which is, which is wonderful. Um, but I think through the conversations I've had a lot, and with members within AI, I kind of keep saying, I've said, probably said to maybe 20 young people in the last 6 weeks, um, don't worry that AI is going to take your job. Just, just, um, worry that somebody who understands AI will take your job. You know, take the opportunity to learn and understand because actually with where AI is at at the moment, it is, um, it is basically, they call them LLMs, but they basically have taken all, you know, lots of information that's available in the world You know, downloaded our books, published books and things like that into all of that system. So all that wisdom's in there and all AI is able to do is search that and make connections and look for averages. And once you understand that, you realize actually we don't need to be where it's at at the moment worried. Maybe the worry comes in when we get to a point, at some point in the future, when AI is as smart as a human being and has all of the emotional intelligence. But at the moment, actually with AI, we're gonna need more humanity. We're going to need more connection. There's going to be more need for relationship building. I have a client, a company that I work with at the moment, and I have sort of positioned with myself now, actually, it's more of a leadership intelligence partner. And because what I say to them is, please, between our— when I'm coaching the board, I'm running sessions, please use AI. Use it as a coaching tool for you. Then be even more prepared when you sit down with me. Um, so I, I sort of see, I see the gift in it in terms of its ability around our productivity. It can be very helpful. I personally am finding it very stimulating working with AI, being very careful to make sure when I send communications out it still reflects my brand as a human being. Um, so you're getting a note from me, not from, not from AI. But it's brilliant in terms of being able to summarize meetings and being more effective, more productive, but being a bit careful where, where the lines are. I personally wouldn't have it interrogating all of my emails and sending out my emails on my behalf, which some people do. That, that starts to me as I have too much confidential information in there.

But I would love to— I agree, and I'm on the same page except in one way. So 2 years ago, I, uh, with Delphi.ai, I created my own digital Yeah. So the idea, and it was trained on 1.5 million words I've written. I, and I'm working with a colleague on creating another platform, which I'm very excited about. But I have to say, having been a former therapist, I lost a lot of sleep every night while developing it because the mantra for me is do no harm. Do no harm. And I was just very afraid it's going to say, yeah, quit your job. Yeah. You know, without, I was scared. So I spent over 100 hours training it, and now we're on a free version, so it's trained on 150,000 words. But I'm the only one that can see the conversations. But I— that's important because I'm vetting it. I'm making sure that, you know, it's me, it's really giving sound advice. The sad thing, Chris, for me is this: what you said about what AI is great at. I mean, I'm an avid user of chat as well, and I train my chat. My— I train it. No, do not tell me these things. I don't need you to do this. Do this. Think like this. I'm training it every minute of the day. But, well, that's an exaggeration. But what I'm sad about is the way some people are using my clone when there is no replacement for talking to a human.

Yes. Yes, I agree.

That's what's— when there's nuance, when there's emotionality, when there's trauma, where there's background that you must understand to guide someone, chat is not— AI is not good at that.

No.

It's only as good as the input you give it. So I feel— so I'm sad at this.

It needs to be used in conjunction with you, not in isolation.

Right. It has replaced Um, going to a therapist for people. It's replaced going to a coach. It's, it's replaced a lot of things.

Mm-hmm.

And that is dangerous. I can see that. I can see that. I mean, thank goodness mine, if I don't have enough info, if the clone doesn't have enough information, it says, um, I'm sorry, I don't have enough information. Um, please contact Kathy. But I, I'm, I am concerned. Does that make sense to you?

It does, absolutely does. However, AI can't— from what I know about you and your wisdom and your expertise and all your connections as well through doing things like your very successful podcast, there's no substitute for you and there's no substitute for your humanity. And I suppose maybe we have to seek clients who, who can appreciate that. And, and some people, you know, will, will continue to do that.

And, and I need to say, I understand it saves money and coaching can be expensive, and I know we're in an uncertain world, so of course they're going to use— and don't get me wrong, not everybody is asking questions that my clone's doing a good job, but I would say it doesn't replace the humanity and the deep nuance That another human being— like when you're speaking, I'm looking at your eyes, I'm looking at your shoulders, I'm looking at when you sigh. All of that is information. So, um, but you know, I understand that in tough economic times we look to save money. Get— give me help that's free or affordable. I get it.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing all that. Thank you. So what is the biggest What's the biggest thing you're focused on right now that you feel we're not doing a good enough job here in the world, in the organizations you're dealing with? What's the problem you seek to solve?

Well, I think in terms of what I decided to do during the pandemic actually was I looked through all the experience that I have and I thought, how could I contribute, um, to a better world? How could— how can I really make a difference? And I thought, I, I really thought about it hard, and, and I decided actually that the best way that I could contribute was through other people, rather than me needing to be, you know, the person. I thought, actually, what if I brought together some of the amazing people that I'd interviewed who were also heart-centered?

Mm-hmm.

and kind. And I brought a small group of people together, a circle during the pandemic, and everybody had imposter syndrome as to who was—

I shouldn't be here.

Yeah, even including me, you know, because I've interviewed all these amazing people and what would happen if I brought some together? And people just loved it, the depth of conversation, the wisdom, the kindness. And out of that has emerged over the last few years a community which we call the Elevation Collective. And the community is really focused on amplifying good. It's around, you know, um, us bringing people together who are doing courageous work like you're, you know, this podcast's about. Um, but also often it can be a lonely adventure when you're pushing and knocking down walls and, and bridges. So we're kind of like a, an incubator, an amplifier for good. We, we, we— everybody in the community needs to make sure that financially they're stable and sound. You can't end poverty if, um, if you're, if you're in poverty yourself. Um, so we support each other around our businesses and our, our models, but also about how can we contribute more to improving the world, bringing people together in a world that feels more and more polarized. And it's very easy seeing a lot of dark right now in the world, and that the media all focuses on it because it makes headlines and You know, um, I don't think some of our politicians are, you know, are inspiring, and, um, certainly not some of the behavior I want to see for my, for my kids and family. But actually, if you bring enlightened people together who've got that light inside them— you mentioned that, you know, people don't light a fire underneath somebody, light it within— I pick those people who've already got a fire within and connect them, and then it's amazing what can happen. and the ripple effects that can happen from people not feeling lonely anymore, feeling together, developing their initiatives independently but together with the support of a community that has a lot of love and caring. So I suppose we're missing that connection and love. It is there, it is there in the world. It's not very much so, but it's not always in the headlines. But that's what I'm kind of focusing on. We may be working on different initiatives. So we have someone who just opened a a school in Uganda in the last week. We've got a, you know, a charity that is, um, has an eco-village and is supporting the sustainable development of, of a valley in Africa. We've got somebody just joining the community who, who has a charity around getting kids out into the snow and, and giving them development, and, uh, and also a charity that helping them with the mindset when they're feeling depressed. We've got a sustainable beauty brand who's happened— she's also The owner and founder is also a Porsche racing driver who's giving a contribution to women's charities. And so, you know, there's all sorts of smorgasbord of different kinds of characters and people. And what we're doing is supporting each other through this journey of life right now and making sure we keep seeing the light. And rather than falling into the dark together and encouraging ourselves to keep going when it seems Tough.

All right, questions.

Yeah.

You use words like a better world.

Yeah.

You talk about the light within and you can see it. You talk about doing good. I think now more than ever, there's so much polarization about even what those words mean, what a better world would look like to you versus someone else, me, someone else. I'm just fascinated. I've never had this conversation in 335 episodes. What would you describe? How would you describe a better world? I mean, I'm guessing there's principles we're all going to agree on. Well, no, we all don't agree on anything, but I'm interested in what is good in your mind, what is better. And also, when you say you see, how do you put it, the light Do you sense that from the minute someone walks in the door? You seem to be kind of a tuning fork for that. Can you talk about that for people that want to understand that?

Yeah, yeah. One of my podcast guests actually described people as like— and I'm sorry, I've forgotten her name— Judy Wignall, I think. Wignall. And she described in her book Fireflies, You know, people like flying. I like that idea as well, is that there are some people who, who, um, you know, they illuminate a room when they come, they come together. Or they, you know, their wisdom, sometimes it's done very quietly, sometimes it might be more, you know, more visible, but they do it through the positivity, their energy. Sometimes there's— there can be a spiritual link which, which helps. It helps as well. Um, and I think those people who are actually doing that, it's being around them is quite, um, can bring a lot of energy, uh, and it can, it can help to manifest and, you know, through the ripple effects of their activity, a lot of positivity. So I think, um, what I'm looking for is people with a common value set who, you know, I think what I've kind of done actually, I've created a community of the kind of people I want to hang around with. And, and, and, uh, you know, one, one, you know, want to be my friend. So if there's a— there's something, um, as a— with your experience, um, that you can read into that. But actually, um, people who went together individually, uh, they are doing amazing things, but collectively when you bring them together, there's a real ball of, of energy. And life's about energy, really. I mean, if you look through the whole theme through all my career, And with, with, with organizations and individuals, it's about energy and that, that, um, connecting and, uh, that energy, keeping your light illuminated. You might have to exercise and do meditate to do some of that. You might have to do good. And when we do good, that, that lights it up as well, uh, keeping that light alive in, in a dark time. And that's why I think it's, you know, the community is attracting people in when they feel that. that energy and that light. We have the most beautiful events when we get together because we're international. When we do get together, the connectivity and the energies between people, people walk in and they make instant best friends. And that is really— and I think we need that.

Yeah.

We need, for people listening, finding spaces and places that lift you, that energize you in this dark. It might be doing a sport. It might be— we're talking about music, the two of you before the break. It might be something that energizes you, energizes you there. Um, but do everything you can to lift that energy. And finding something purposeful to do as well, that's also great. You know, that, that connects you, I think, to this energetic force, whatever it is, and allows you to operate in, you know, in a flow. Um, and I think just if you can find in your life, in an organization, if you can connect what you do to good. It's not just about selling widgets or something. There's actually something that really improves humanity through it. That's going to engage people. If you can create an environment that they love, why would they want to go and work anywhere else if they love and they feel connected and they're allowed to form relationships? And it's the same if we've— later in life, maybe we find our purpose and we find something that's important to us. For our members, it can be different things. It can be It could be around helping people get off the streets. It could be around actually through my leadership and coaching work, and I help organizations to operate in a better, more enlightened way. It might be through my sustainable brands and getting rid of plastics in our packaging. We, we actually are setting an example that the industries can follow. So it can be, you know, a variety of different things.

All right, I'm going to ask a probing question.

Hmm.

Because I really want to know. Um, so a little bit of a backstory. I had a corporate life, 18 years. I did. It was wonderful. It was a great ride for a time, and I learned great things— marketing, membership services, market research. Uh, it was amazing. However, uh, as, as I hit 40, I faced crises, full-blown crises— sexual harassment, gender bias, Gender discrimination, toxic colleagues, narcissistic bosses, hard times. And I didn't know what hit me back then. I'm like, what is happening here? And so I was laid off after 9/11, frankly, after being promised, you know, buy the biggest house you can, you have a long career here. One month after moving to that home was 9/11. One month later, I was laid off with 2 small kids and And I had a little— I had a breakdown moment, and I just wanna share it. I've shared it a few times on the podcast, but I'm sitting in my therapist's office. He was a spiritual psychotherapist, crying. And he said, I know from where you sit, this is the worst crisis you've ever faced. From where I sit, it's the first moment you can choose who you want to be in the world.

Yes. Yes.

Not what, who. Now, who do you want to be? And so I want to tell everybody, most people don't know the answer to it. They know that they're in pain. They know that this is not right, but they can't answer what they want next. That's why I'm a career and leadership coach. But I said, I don't know. I want to be you. And we laughed. And he said, what does that mean to you? And I said, this is what blurted out, I want to help people, not hurt people and be hurt.

Yes.

Beautiful. And from that conversation, he said, I think you'd make a great therapist. And that wasn't a shock. I had studied a little psychology and I found therapy, got the master's. However, there was a lot of darkness, suicidality, client calling me saying, I'm going to kill myself right now. And it was possible she would've. And I felt like, okay, this is not quite it. And then I found coaching and writing and speaking and training. But the truth is, I would've made a heck of a lot more money and been in an incredibly different financial situation had I stayed on that route. But I think I also might've— I had chronic tracheitis, infections of the trachea. I think I might've gotten cancer and died. I'm not joking. That's how hard it was. But I bring it up because I think everyone listening to you, you're a firefly. We all want it. We want that view that you have. We want— I think not everybody, don't put everybody, paint everybody with the same brush, but I know I want it. I wanna be with people that enliven me just by their energy, just by how they are. That said, there are a lot of people struggling in other ways. They don't know what they would want. They can't give up the money that they're making. There's lots of things that keep us from—

Mm-hmm.

And I'm not justifying, I'm clarifying. There are things that stop us from doing what we dream to do of good in the world. That said, I think there are small ways we can do it that don't—

Yeah.

Make us chuck the baby out with the bathwater. So a lot of people come to me and say, I'm done with my career. And many are, but most are not. They're done with that job. They're done with that boss. They're done with that culture. They're not ready to stop being a doctor. They're not ready to stop being a pharmacologist often. But we have to tease out what is draining you, what is depleting you, what is making you depressed. And often we need people around us that can see that. But all of that, that was not a question, that was a diatribe here. But when people say, I want what you're doing, Kris, but I have these issues that keep me from doing that.

Yeah.

And I think I know what you're going to say. What would you suggest to the person who's dying to find more meaning and be more supportive in the ways they want to be good and they want the world to be good, but they struggle? What would you say for them to do?

So I think, and I think it's a really fascinating area to explore because, you know, people might, might look at me and think, oh, you know, I want to be where Chris is right now. What they don't see is that I also had a very tough time when I was about 28, and between probably 38 and 42, I hit a wall. And with a work situation that happened in a business that I've been a co-founder of, I had a really tough time. I was so— my wife was pregnant at the time, and she actually, she was so concerned about my well-being And she, very heavily pregnant, drove to a hotel to make sure that I was okay, to be with me that evening. So, but what, in those darker moments and those times where things seem very difficult, when you look back, then there's actually, you realize those are gifts. And what they were, they were almost signals to look at yourself. I mean, I was at a point in time where you could just say I had so much to give, but so few people to give it to.

Mm-hmm.

But by actually setting a sort of direction for the next few years of my life about what was important and gradually, just day by day, working towards it, doing the best that I could be to be resilient like you. I was fortunate at one stage earning lots of money in corporate, and I did with my first small business, but then I kind of threw that away. And, um, and actually, like you, I could have been earning an awful lot more money, but that's not important now to me because I'm, I'm comfortable. What is important is the difference that I make while I'm in this world. I've done an awful lot of self-development. I've put myself really through the mill. I, I went on programs like Landmark, which were really— I found that very helpful.

Mm-hmm.

Um, some people find that a bit cultish, just Do the first one and ignore the language, and then take that— take from— take what you learned from that and, and go and do something else, in my view. But I got, I got a lot from that. I really understood to understand my purpose in life. And where I could, I invested in programs. I read so much self-development. The podcast, you know, 15 years of that.

Every single person.

You've done 300, which is incredible. I know that's incredible.

I've done 600 or so, right?

600 or so now. But what you do is you learn it just by doing that. You're learning from each person, week in, week out, week in, week out. And you build connections, you build friendships, you get feedback from people who say kind things about you, and it lifts you. So I would say get into action with something. Realize there's a signal if you're feeling really low and down at the moment about looking into yourself, And, you know, do you find some help? Because we all go through those challenging times when we need others. Find people you trust. Often that's not family members to give you the right advice, or your mates. It's, um, you need someone like you, Kathy, to, to help, um, help and help you see the, the wood from the trees. Um, and, and look, one day you'll look back on that time and be proud that you, you spiralled up rather than allowed yourself to Oh, I know. And it'll all make sense, and you look at it and realize that we're on this journey through life, and we learn more on the downs actually than the ups. And then what that does, those moments now you can talk about through your work, those challenging times you had, with absolute experience. You've been there. That's so much more credible to people and so much more helpful if you've had those life experiences than if you'd had life had been plain sailing for you and you were born with a golden spoon in your mouth.

I so agree. My first book, Breakdown Breakthrough: 12 Hidden Crises Working Women Face, I really believe this. When we have the thing that pushes us to our knees, the thing that we said, how could this be? How could I have this? Honestly, if you can think about in 5 years, what could this make possible that I would look back and say, I'm grateful for this?

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm in a bit of it right now in that so much has evaporated in terms of women's groups that I used to speak for and diversity, equity, inclusion. And it breaks my heart that it's been evaporated, abolished. But it's, it's helping me reach out into other areas. It's helping me. I would not have done that. I would not have explored new relationships and new directions and thought about how else can I use my talents or abilities or interests. So people, I really want to encourage you that if you're in a breakdown moment, if you can— I call it seeing the future vision of you before it's hatched.

Yes.

You probably have that idea of what you could be. But society, culture, we compare ourselves to others. You can't be stupid and do that, Kathy. What are you, nuts? And, you know, and if you live in an affluent area, a lot of people are comparing how much money and what you drive. And I really believe that if you're going through something, listen to what Chris is saying, that how can I use myself in service of others but in service of myself?

Yes.

Where I, just like what we're talking about, how do I uplift myself and elevate myself? But others are a part of it. And I think if we only think about ourselves, we're missing a very large part of what life can give us.

And we get this, one of my connections, Jay Samits, has written a book about the second advantage. I think I'm probably on my 4th or 5th, but we have phases in life where Um, where— and I'm in one now— where actually I have, you know, I have the bases covered so I can focus more on, on this part of my life and, and making this part of my life really, really count. And but there are certain phases in our life and we've just got to put the food on the table, we've just got to earn money to create that freedom, invest our money too. A lot of people don't invest their money Um, they, they spend it and they, they— and unfortunately, I've noticed, I hear this with females often, they don't, um, take the finances. So, um, give it the focus.

I can relate.

Invest that money, uh, grow their money such that when they're, you know, got older, they've got a stream of money flowing through and growth. That means they don't have to worry so much about earning so much. Um, but also, and be mindful, you know, people— I have people in my community who kind of like 80 years of age and they're still making a contribution, you know. And that's—

Isn't that the most inspiring? 88, 85, and I'm watching going, oh!

So our contribution might come in the last 10 years of our life. It's where we make a big difference. So, you know, if you're sitting here and you're 30 or 40 or going through that journey of life, learn, realize that we can overestimate what we what we can achieve in a year, but considerably underestimate what we can achieve in 10. Um, I think that, that's something I've— I heard that quote once that's really stuck with me, actually. It's amazing. Your life can be completely and utterly transformed in 5, 10 years, but, uh, you might be frustrated when you look at what's happened over 12. But also, the other thing is I have a book here called Clever Fox I find quite helpful. In Clever Fox, You can buy these on Amazon for $30 or $40, and you can use it to reflect every month on what you've achieved and look at every week. And it's quite helpful. That got me during the pandemic. It got me— I actually had 2 surgeries that nearly killed me about 4 years ago. I almost passed away and I had to build my energy back.

Wow.

And actually I got this because I wanted to get a bit more disciplined. remind myself of my goals and my vision and what was important and the likes. And that for me is a— I can write it down and it—

What a wonderful tip. Any last words? And where does everyone soak up all of this? Where do we read more about you, learn more about you? Obviously listen to your podcast. What would you suggest for people?

Well, thank you. People can check out chriscooper.co.uk. You can also, for the podcast, you'll find summaries on there as well. At the bottom, there's some of those, but if you want that, you can also access in Spotify and Apple and places like that. There's also what we did write, partly with the community and the Elevation Collective's input, and also from the past shows. I wrote an ebook last year called The 10 Elevations. Um, for— to enable you to, to thrive and do good. And that's available for free, so you can access that from the website and just, just, just go and—

We'll include that link, everyone.

Click on the link. Um, it's, it's in there somewhere in the show notes. And that's, that's a free gift with a few ideas and thoughts that might be, might be helpful.

Thank you for being you. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your light. Firefly. Oh, you know, the world is lucky to have you. I so appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. Come back again soon.

Thank you, Kathy.

All right, everybody, I hope this spurs— I'm like a broken record after every podcast, I say this— there's a lot of nuance in what we're talking about. You know, it's— I hope it stirs— maybe it's agitation, like, I want to do good, but look what I'm dealing with, or my company won't let me, or And I think, look at what comes up when you speak, people. When you hear us talk about this, what comes up for you? Is there resistance? Is there anger? Is there longing? And actually use this— what's this called? Not Firefox. What did you call it? The thing you held up?

Well, this here is a book I just searched online. It's called Clever Fox.

Clever Fox.

So I just find Clever Fox is good.

Love it. Just write down, wow, this is what's coming up for me. And just don't censor yourself, write it down. And then take some time. Where are you right now? Is it troubling? Is it inspiring? Is it encouraging? Do you feel like, oh, I'm ready for a new chapter? Don't let this minute pass you by. Really look at what would help me feel like I'm uplifting myself, but others, and doing good in the world all at the same time. And I have a feeling it's going to unlock something in you that you could take action on right now. And we'd love to hear it wherever you see this. We'd love to hear a comment. I hope you find it helpful. Everyone have a wonderful Finding Brave 2 weeks. See you next time. And thank you again, Chris, for all you're doing. So appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining us today, and please don't forget to check out FindBrave.org for more programs, resources, and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding Brave.