Finding Brave Epis. 328: Reclaiming the Power to Trust Your Own Voice, with Dr. Cindy McGovern

Hello everyone, this is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created the show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of finding brave, and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business, and career.

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. I am so excited. I know you hear this every time, but it is true every time, and particularly when a dear friend rejoins who's already been on the show And we have so much. We yacked for about an hour here. I'm so excited to introduce you, if you don't already know, the amazing Dr. Cindy McGovern. Cindy, your book, we're talking about, um, The World Needs It So Much, Particularly Now. Now is a really— we all know this, but in our world, it's— we're seeing the changes that are happening. We're seeing, if we don't have the confidence in the self-belief and the self-trust, and we don't understand the value that we have, today we can be a bit washed, washed over with the waves of change. And today we are talking about Cindy's new book, Permission, The Permission Mission. And I want to tell you all about Cindy, and then I want to dive into the book. Why now? What it shares that you haven't shared before, because you have, uh, you know, amazing books, sell yourself, you're out there speaking. So let's, we, let's dive in here, but we're calling this Reclaiming, get it right, Reclaiming the Power to Trust Your Own Voice. You know, it's interesting. We didn't talk about this, but I think for some people they're claiming it for the first time. But you're gonna, you're gonna talk, you're gonna talk about that reclaiming. Here's what you mean. But let me tell you about Cindy, Dr. Cindy. Now we're good friends, so I will refer to Cindy as Cindy, but Cindy is known as Dr. Cindy, top-rated speaker, bestselling author, and consultant. Dr. Cindy, the first lady of sales, is on a mission to empower people and companies to get what they want through sales. Sales. And as she writes, yeah, sales is that icky word that makes us think a lot of things and makes us think, that's not me, right? But you're gonna tell us differently and why it's so important to know how to speak powerfully about ourselves. Uh, she's the author of the new book, The Permission Mission: Reclaiming the Power to Trust Your Own Voice. And after years of consulting with companies, helping them grow their businesses, she had an epiphany. Every job is a sales job.

Wow.

And every person is a salesperson. Later, I want to know, do people push back on that? Do we still have the feeling you're going to tell me? You're going to tell me. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. All right. So you get a lot of that, which is great because then you can play against that and it makes great conversation. Throughout her careers as a college professor, a salesperson, and consultant, Dr. Cindy realized that people can get more of what they want in work and in life by using the skills of sales professionals. Today, she focuses on bringing companies and people together to grow their businesses and get what they want. Because believe it or not, she says, you were born with sales skills. And Cindy wants to help you embrace your inner salesperson to finally get what you want, especially in times like these. There we go. There's more about Cindy below. All right, Cindy, we've got to dive in here.

On—

let's start here. What does permission and waiting for permission— how do you see that showing up? And why are— why this book now is the big question. Tell us all.

Yeah. So first of all, it's so good to see you. It's been a while. I'm so happy to see you again, friend. Thank you for having me.

Thank you. In the middle of your crashing book launch, here you are. I'm so excited.

No, it's— I'm so glad to see you. Um, so this book has been about 10 years in the making, actually. I wanted to write this for a while, and this just was the right time. And so I have to just move you one minute, sweetie.

I got just one sec here. I gotta move you to, um, there we go. Okay, editors, thank you for— there, now I'm looking at you and the screen. Thank you. Go ahead.

So this, this book was about 10 years in the making because it was something I really wanted to do. And this just was the right time. It just kind of the stars aligned. But permission is something that we always seek from the outside. And this starts from childhood. You know, we ask our parents, can I have a cookie? Can I go outside? But as I started really examining where permission showed up as adults, I noticed it in the coaching that I do, the executive coaching, coaching with sales teams, coaching with service teams, coaching in the business world. And permission was the pause that people kept having. And it was that hesitation to move forward. And it was really interesting because these were very confident people. These were CEOs, these were C-suites, these were managers, these were leaders, these were strong personalities even. But there was a pause and it was at the edge of their comfort zone, right at the edge.

A literal pause. A literal pause in their speaking.

Their speaking, their action. And what I realized is it had nothing to do with confidence. It had everything to do with permission. They did not think they could do it. They did not think they could advance. They did not think they could do it. We all have that friend, by the way. We, we have this friend that doesn't think they can put in for that job. They don't think they can go and do this. There's some invisible— I call it the velvet rope. There's like this invisible velvet rope they have in their life. And I started going, why are we doing this? Why are these people doing this? This is an incredibly accomplished human. So after a while, this is why it was 10 years in the making.

Hmm.

I recognized this pattern and I'm like, okay, I have to do something about this. You know, the, the PhD researcher in me, the Dr. Cindy came to light. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta help people.

Hmm.

So I started researching it and I started digging into the psychology, internal family systems, and figuring out why we do this. So I started discovering, you know, obviously this is patterns and how we are raised and how we're socialized and all of this. Mm-hmm. So I call 'em the backup singers. We all have these backup singers in our heads and it's the ones we choose to listen to and the ones we choose not to listen to. Hmm. They're calling the shots.

Yeah.

And that's where it's permission. We're still asking for permission from those backup singers. And that's why we're pausing.

From the singers, not from—

Mm-hmm.

So are there lots of— oh my gosh, I could talk to you for an hour. I'm a singer on the side, you know that. So I relate. I mean, we really hear it loudly. Um, so there's, there are threads that I— and I want everyone to read this book because we can't do it justice in a half hour, but I find it fascinating because I see the same thing You can be with a very confident person, a person who really owns, understands their worth, has done a lot in the world, has a big voice. But then when you're with them privately, you see that they're, they're waiting for permission. How do you reconcile it? I know you talk about it and you see it all the time. What do you think is really going on there, that they've had that confidence, they've, they've done amazing things that the outside world sees and recognizes. What do you think is going on there that they were able to do that, but they're still waiting for permission?

So it's different phases in our life, right? So I could be very confident in one area and still waiting for permission in another. So maybe I'm very confident I have excelled in this aspect of my career, but I'm waiting for permission in this other piece. Or I'm very confident in my family life, but I'm waiting for permission to excel in my career.

Wow.

So, and then we, that's where the excuses come in, right? I'll wait till the kids are grown. I'll wait till this happens. Oh, it's not the right time. Oh, I've gotta wait until I do this, or I wait till I have this degree. I'll wait till I reach this phase. Oh, well, this, we can tell ourselves whatever narrative we want, and that's where we create that narrative around it. And wow, that's those backup singers. They're gonna tell you that narrative. And one of my favorite ones is, is I hear my grandmother's voice very loudly. She is a very prominent backup singer because she was a very prominent figure when I was growing up. My grandmother was born in 1916.

Oh wow.

So let's think about what she grew up with. She was a Rosie the Riveter. She had a very strong woman, but her reality was very different than obviously mine, right? I learned her lessons growing up. So I have to now disseminate those lessons and decide which ones still are valid today, because her reality of a woman growing up at that time obviously is very different than a woman of today. So she only could speak from her frame of reference. So when she would say things to me like, well, I wouldn't do that if I were you. Of course she wouldn't.

Right. Right.

A woman in the 1930s wouldn't. Right. Right.

So are you— when I see that, you know, are you finding that the permission people are waiting for is not just what they say in a meeting, it's how they live their life, what they think they deserve, what they think their direction— you know, I was telling you about my framework that I'm building: identity, protection, direction, and expression. I think we're asking for permission in all of those areas. And it's how you speak, how you think, how you process, how you make decisions. Um, are you— so you're seeing this in the whole spectrum of behavior and speech and communication, right?

Everywhere. Everywhere. And, and that's where also people have to recognize it shows up differently in all of this too, though.

Give us an example, will you?

Yeah. So, so maybe I'm super confident in my speech, but I'm not super confident in this space. So again, you know, it's It's all of those different pieces and recognizing that as well. And so as a, as a leader, you can be incredibly confident in front of your team and still struggle with your own self-worth. And people have a hard time recognizing that. And they're like, how could that person struggle with this? How in the world would you ever struggle with that? It's completely possible. Of course.

And so I've got an idea. Do you want to apply your book and your research methodology to how I fit into this and give us a 3-minute— okay, Kathy, here's what I see. Okay, people, ah, look, here we go, we're bringing it to life. I've noticed, and it's becoming ever clearer, and I'm not sure why at this age, I can be very clear about my boundaries. You know, I was a corporate VP, then a marriage and family therapist, I can be very clear about what they need to be, but articulating them when I know it will make my client upset, or when they are pushing so egregiously against my boundary where it'll agitate me and I have to breathe and I have to tone it down because I want to write them in a way that they can hear or speak But one would look at me as someone who understands boundaries, teaches about boundaries. You know, I'm teaching these things every day. But if I really look at what's difficult for me, I think I have a persona that I want to be pleasing and I want to be that person that doesn't let anyone down.

Oh, oh, the people pleasing. Oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. Okay, so let's go into that. Yeah. Where were you taught people pleasing? Where did that come from?

Instantly, I can tell you from my childhood, because I couldn't speak up. Everyone's heard this 10 times. My parents are in heaven, and they were such supporters, but I could not speak up or challenge my mother. It went very, very— there it is, 2 seconds, I know it. And I've had therapy on it, and we talk about it constantly. Um, so I get that. So what would you advise when I'm aware of it, I know where it comes from, I've done work on it. Where would you take people when that comes up?

Great question. So here's where there's a couple of steps. The first thing is awareness. Know who it is. So I talk about name that backup singer. Like, literally, it's like name that tune. Name that backup singer. Mama.

Love it.

Okay, mama. I see you, mama. Now let's clean out the emotional closet. Ooh. Why are we holding onto that lesson? Because it's clearly not serving you in the way that you want it to, because it's creating some, some discomfort. So what's also interesting though is it's also creating comfort because it's what Mama taught you. So there is a tug of war here because there was comfort in that because that was Mama's lesson. As uncomfortable as it is, It's what you knew in childhood. So even if it was awful, protective mechanism, 100%.

It kept me safe.

100%. Absolutely. So, and I always say it's not a comfort zone, it's a familiar zone. Cuz a lot of times your comfort zone is horrifically uncomfortable.

That's right. That's right. It's your familiar zone.

Familiar zone. So even though that's what that is. Let's, let's figure out that emotional closet. Let's decide why you're choosing give mom a solo. So it's serving you in some way. So is it because it's familiar? Great. We wanna honor mom. And that's a lot of it too, is we wanna honor the voices of the past and we feel like maybe we're betraying her by going against it. That's very true, especially if it was a parental figure or a you know, my grandmother. But we also have to recognize that that was only her reality. That was the reality that she grew up with. That was the lesson that she thought was appropriate. So then you start cleaning out that emotional closet and deciding, do I wanna carry that into the future?

Yeah.

So I wanna, I wanna share a, a phrase that a friend of mine told me when I was getting married. Now granted, I eloped, so that was a whole different thing, but we were talking about weddings and she said, You know, one of the things when you get married is you don't have to invite every single person you've ever known to your wedding. You need to invite the people that you want to be part of your future.

Oh, what a beautiful, what a beautiful strategy tip.

And I thought, wow, what an interesting way to look at your wedding, that it isn't the people of your past, it's the people of your future.

How beautiful.

So think about your backup singers. That's a heavy chorus you're hauling around. I mean, that's a lot of, that's a lot of tour buses.

So you're so right. And I think, you know, I know you think very deeply about these issues. For the people I work with, for most of them, awareness is not enough because when safety was involved. Now you're talking nervous system, you're talking, you're talking survival. Because as a child, those parents, those figures, they were your lifeline to life. So if anyone is listening and they understand, it was my uncle, it was my aunt, it was my mother, it was— these are deep relationships that shape how you feel safe in the world. So we're not downplaying that I mean, if it were that easy that we could just identify it and let it go, we'd all be, you know, perfectly healed. So I love that. I love that you're, you're pointing out first we have to recognize it, then we have to clean the closet, but clean the closet or, you know, shed work. It can be nervous system work. It can be, you know, therapy. Thank you for that. Is there— are you finding— and you take me through the most important pieces of the book— are you finding that there's one backup singer that you hear over and over and over about?

So yes. So when you're cleaning that emotional closet and you're identifying those backup singers, you will find your lead singers. You will find them. And there's usually a few. And what you're going to find in cleaning out your emotional closet, and you will probably do this with a coach or with a therapist, you will likely not do this alone. So thank you for bringing that up. Is you need to discover your why you hold onto them. Because there is a reason. And if it's comfort, if it's discomfort, and here's the moment that you will get to. If you come to the why and you choose to still hold onto it, knowing that it is not serving you in your future, you have to be honest and recognize that you are no longer a victim. You are now a volunteer.

I love the naming you're doing. Naming is a theme. I'm hearing it all over the place. I know James Clear in Atomic Habits talks about naming. You're not someone who's trying to quit smoking. You're a non-smoker. Are you or not? Because if you say you're trying to, you'll be trying to for the rest of your life.

That's right.

I love what you're saying. You're not— now you are not a victim. You're a volunteer.

And you have to be honest.

Wow.

But naming that, doesn't that make you think, people? I don't want to volunteer in my own process of holding myself back.

No, right? You know, but be honest about it, because now you know. So you can't, you can't unknow that knowledge now if you've gone through it. Now we have to be clear about it, and it takes some grit to go through this, right? So if you now know that you don't want to be there, you know why you're stuck there, and you know the path to get out. Now you know you're choosing to stay.

So now your fear is keeping you there.

So your desire to change has to outweigh the fear of staying there.

That is so important. It reminds me, and I've said this story before, but I think it bears repeating. I was telling my sister, I don't know, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, about one particular thing that happened with my mom and I was 16 and what it did. And again, this is not abuse, it's that I shut down, that I realized I can't really tell her how I think if it upsets her. And my sister said, I'm your sister and I'll listen to you tell that story, you know, as long as you need to, as many times as you need to, but it It hurts my heart that it's still so active for you that you want to still tell that story. And I swear to you, there was like a big universal proverbial huge switch, and I just went, boink, she's so right. I'm so tired of telling this story because it makes it about my mother. Over and over. It's not making it about how I'm continually talking about it.

Wow.

And, you know, not often does that switch come to you and you just go, boink, I'm done. But there was something so real about how she said it and so loving that, yeah, look what I am doing. Yeah. So I'm sure you have similar things as the switch that— what, can you give us a few? If people are listening going, yes, I hear that backup singer, I know who it is. What do I do? Talk us through that, Cindy.

Yeah. So a couple of them are recognizing why you listen, and there's a reason that you're listening. And it was— there's a couple of reasons. Like I said, that's a parental figure. The other thing is you're feeding something for yourself in this. So it is keeping you here because it's a great excuse. It's a great excuse. Like, I can keep saying that it's until the kids get out because I don't actually really want it.

Oh, so sometimes you see they don't really want it, but there's external pressure or even their own pressure from another voice.

Correct.

Because I— that brings up a point. I'm always talking about you have a board of directors, you know, yeah, proverbially, and one's a warrior and one's the business person and one is the, you know, the pleaser and one is child. Well, sometimes there's one voice that's so darn loud that you, you know, and it dominates the meeting. So you say, Warrior, I hear you. I hear that you're always in a fight and you've always had to be, but I need you to step out of the table now. Please sit in the corner. I hear you and it's very valuable, but you're dominating. You're not letting— so tell— that's one way I talk to clients about it. How do you handle that when So that person thinks they want it. I'm going to start that business when the kids leave, but I have to wait till the kids leave. But yet they don't really want it. How do you suggest they address that?

So that's quieting the backup singers so that you can listen to your own instinct, because sometimes it's the fact that they've been so loud, you don't even listen to your own voice. So once you start quieting all these competing priorities in your own head, and listening to all of this, you start actually listening to what you want. And you've kind of known, if you're being totally honest with yourself, you've always had that inkling. But when you really do that emotional work and you really clean out that emotional closet, you recognize this has simply been an excuse. And that's a big piece of it.

How often do you find that the people actually don't want to do it, but they thought they had to and they thought they had to say that? How often do you see that in the people you're working with?

That's actually a big one. And that's a career one that I see where people have actually gone down a career path because they were expected to do so, or their parents wanted them to follow in their footsteps or something of that nature. And they wake up and they're kind of like, I didn't really want this, or I don't really want this anymore. And they have to reconcile that. And then they have to reconcile the disappointment that they're going to have to give others. And that's their words, not mine, by the way. And so I have to remind them, you're not giving disappointment. They own that. You're not giving anyone disappointment. That's an emotion that they own. You are giving information. Oh. All you're giving is information. They own their own emotions. You are giving yourself permission to take action. That's all you're giving.

And you're giving yourself permission to follow your unique path. And we know some parents don't dig that. And, you know, I always say nobody's getting up in the morning going, I'm going to blow it today. I'm going to be a terrible parent, you know, or a terrible spouse. No, everyone's doing their best. Everyone is advising from their backup singers, and from their frame, their, their song. Because I mean, unless they're truly evil, um, or really devoid of empathy, um, you know, a true raging narcissist, let's say, most people are giving advice in terms of what they think is helpful for you. So you have to understand too, they have their own, their own chorus, their own orchestra that they're in. And that doesn't mean you have to buy it, every word of it. Oof. Wow. All right. I'm aware of our time. Can you give us two other strategies that you see really move people forward to reclaim and trust their own voice? Can you help us with that?

Certainly. So one of the other things that I talk about with people in the book, but I also talk about in the coaching, is Recognizing why you've ignored your voice to begin with. Where did you learn that? Where did we learn self-doubt? And there is a, there is a place where you learned it. Where did you learn that you had to outsource your own confidence? And we've gotta go back and retrace that because it is a taught behavior. You know, animals trust their instincts, babies trust their instincts. Where did we learn not to? Because it is learned to stop trusting. Wow. And if we, if we think about it, um, and this is true for men and women, but if you think about it, you still have spidey senses. You feel the hairs on the back of your head, you know, stand up. You, you know when, ooh, I shouldn't walk in that parking lot, or, ooh, something feels off about this. So you have them.

Right.

But you also know this and you have that gut instinct, but so often we do not pay attention. And I, and I talk about in the book how our emotions are our, our GPS, right? And we tend to turn them off. Why do we do that? Where did we learn to turn them off? And so if we can go back to that and figure that out and figure out that lesson and decide— again, you get to decide for yourself why that happened, who that backup singer is, and why we allow them to still have a solo. That will also be helpful in you reclaiming your own voice, because you are subconsciously continuing to let them have a solo without even recognizing it, because you continue to tamp down your emotions. And those emotions are really important.

Oh, it's so good. Can I give an example of this and see how you would interpret that with your book? This is a pattern that I literally cannot believe keeps repeating. I absolutely— here it is, like therapy, people. Dr. Cindy's helping me. I'm completely aware of this. There was some narcissism as I was growing up, and, um, and I don't mean to say this lightly, narcissism is a personality disorder and it's a spectrum disorder, as many disorders are. So we can have one trait of it or many traits of it, you know, one to arbitrarily 1 to 10. Let's say 10, let's say you're an extreme narcissist and it's extremely damaging to be in relationship with an extreme narcissist. However, this is what I'll say. There's something called love bombing that narcissists can do. And I'm not saying this flippantly, really, I'm not. But often, uh, people with this personality disorder or these traits understand how to manipulate people because it was something they had to do. And they are often wounded from their childhood, but they understand how to get over. They understand. And so over the course of my life, I've been love bombed, and it has just recently happened 4 times in a period of 6 months, 4 different people. And I'll give you a tip: if someone's congratulating you, um, Giving you compliments in a way that's effusive and you are feeling uncomfortable. I mean, some people feel uncomfortable with even, oh, you look lovely today. But I mean, if it's coming at you, you're so great, you're so amazing, I can't wait to talk to you again. If it's making you feel something, I know I'm great, but something's a little over the top here. It probably is. And darn it, these 4 individuals, what happens often is they'll love bomb you to get something. But when you stand up with your own boundaries or say something that sets a boundary, you can be pushed off the pedestal. You, they, you can become dead to them. All of a sudden they ghost you, all of a sudden. So, um, where am I going back to? It's fascinating to me that I've studied this. I was a therapist. It's just, I will— oh, that's what I wanted to go— I will get caught up in, was that love bombing, or was this person just quite effusive? So if you were to ask me, if I were to read your book and say, why are you letting that still happen? My guess would be because my barometer of what is over the top is faulty.

Right.

Is that how you would see it?

Absolutely. But I think most people's are truly. There are very few of us that I think have a good compass anymore because we've all had it kind of skewed, truthfully. And I think that's part of the challenge. And I'll tell you, my husband is one of the few compasses that's dead on.

Like, he'll go, I had a conversation, and oh no, that was fascinating.

I'm like, how do you, how do you have a good compass? Like, he's like Beaver Cleaver though. His family was like super normal, and I'm like, wow, what's that like? You know, like, wow, weird. You know, you guys like each other, that's so strange. You know, you know.

Okay, so very healthy, very grounded upbringing, right? Didn't have maybe some of these things. So what would you do if, if a person in your audience, you're giving a talk or you're consulting and they're telling you, and I'll have to think about what I think the answer I would give is, but what would you say if they said, I just had this 4 times in 6 months? Is that a backup singer or is that a faulty kind of internal barometer of the note we should be singing?

Well, actually what I would say is your barometer is not as off as you think it is because you noticed it.

Okay, good.

So that's the good news is actually you recognize it. Had you not recognized it, I would've said we gotta talk. Right, right. So you saw it. It could also be the nature of the work that you do.

Yeah.

You invite people in to assist them in their lives. That's the work I do too. So people are going to be very grateful for your assistance. And that may be the way that they are showing their gratitude. And so some of that may just be them being that way.

Ironically, these weren't clients. These were people who would have hired me or wanted to collaborate or were going to provide a service for me. So maybe they're seeing something. They think they have to please me.

That could be.

And that could be very true, too. But again, your compass wasn't as off as I think you're thinking it was because you noticed it.

Right. The compass was off that I didn't say, be aware, let's not engage with this individual. Let's not have hopes that this individual is going to deliver. That's where the compass, you know, lays down. But I think what you're saying is the good news is you noticed it. Now what are we going to do about it? Cindy, that was so, so helpful. In the remaining few minutes we have, Can you give us 3 powerful ways that we may not think of on our own that will give us the power to reclaim and trust our own voice? 3 ways that you feel like, I'm saying these, I'm teaching these, I'm consulting about these every day of the week. I'd love to hear.

Yeah, absolutely. So the first one is, it is just listening to those spidey senses.

We all have them.

But we tend to squish them down. And it starts with your emotions. We tend to kind of turn off our emotional GPS. And so we need to pay attention to that. And I would highly recommend it. So instead of talking ourselves out of that instinctual feeling, those red flags, saying, oh, I'm overreacting, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. No, you're not. There's a reason you're feeling that.

Love it. Trust yourself.

Absolutely, absolutely. There's a reason for it.

So do that.

And to your point with the, the other fellow we were talking about, maybe even before we, uh, we recorded, when you have an idea in a meeting and you know it's good and your heart starts beating, it's so good, and you say, 'It's probably stupid, I'm not going to say it.' I mean, how many of us have had a person say it And we're thinking, oh no. So trust yourself when that heart beats and you're excited. Trust. Give it a try.

Or thank yourself later.

Yeah, great.

I love it. All right, what's number 2? Another really powerful step.

The second one is you've got to speak up. And this is one of the areas of permission where we don't practice permission. And this is hard because we think that permission is about just taking action or doing things of that nature, but it is about speaking your truth as well. Reclaiming your voice is actually using your voice. And sometimes it's about— we talked about your boundaries in the very beginning of this podcast, right? You might actually need to redraw those boundaries and communicate those boundaries. To others. And that is a way to claim your permission. And there may be fallout, there may be folks that are not super happy about it, but it's your permission for yourself, your boundary. And remember, you're doing what's best for you. And if you're your best, it's better for everybody. And you're not doing anybody any favors by being totally burned out, totally exhausted. It's not good for anybody. So I think it's really important that you speak up, but that's really hard. So you might need to practice that first. So practice giving yourself permission to speak up and speak your truth.

And then the third one—

oh, go ahead.

Hey, can I just say something about that? Having worked with a lot of people, that it's incredibly hard and perhaps even dangerous to speak up. So if you feel that's you, I can't, it will go terribly, I'll lose my family. Uh, then you're going to want some outside help with this. That might be a therapist, that might be, you know, someone who can really understand. So only you know when it could, um, you know, erupt the whole family situation, or you'll get fired if you speak up. So I always say get outside help. That's a mentor, there's a sponsor, that's a lawyer, that's a doctor, that's a therapist. Um, And I do want to add this. Several— not several, many people have said, the person who was— is my backup singer loudest is passed away. Well, I say, I really believe that, and take it or leave it, that they can hear you. And I would— whether you believe that or not, I would write them a letter and express it. I would express it energetically. And even if no one's there to hear it you will have said the thing that you need to say, and that is life-changing in the very act of that. So thank you for letting me add that in.

I 100% believe in that too. You've got to say what needs to be said, whether it's in writing or out loud, and, you know, scream at the sky if you need to. Um, I think there's a lot, a lot of energy that we pent up in our bodies around that. So I think that's huge. And The third, the third thing is, this is probably the hardest one. Be honest with yourself about this. And that's where you've gotta really be quiet and truly sit with yourself. And this is also where a lot of people haven't given themselves permission because maybe it is the fact that if you are honest with yourself, you know, you don't actually wanna do it. Maybe if you're honest with yourself, there is comfort in being able to use this as an excuse. Maybe there is comfort in saying, yeah, this isn't for me, or this is for me, or whatever it happens to be. And so that's scary for a lot of people. And, and you have to really sit with that first because you have to know what it is that you really want before you can give yourself permission to go after it. But that is one of those practices of permission is really stopping first and being mindful of it. And one of the things I have in the book is, is every, every part of the book ends with take a step forward, and that's exercises for you to do to be able to do that. And a lot of it is self-reflection. A lot of it is those exercises to think about what you need to do to move forward and true honesty around it. And if we can't be honest with ourselves, if we cannot do that self-reflection, none of this else none of the permission is really going to matter. So I would encourage you to think about that. But, but I do want to leave your listeners with one thing, which is your self-worth is not up for negotiation. That's not part of the problem here. That's never been part of the problem. The only permission you need is your own. We're not looking for that outside. And the whole point of this is to in-power yourself.

Yes, I made up a word.

It's not empower, it's in power yourself. Everything you need is already within you to do all of this. It's simply your choice in how you want to play it. So it's really about discovering that and then choosing to take a step.

So good. Love it. I know when I'm getting like a healing session with my guests, which happens almost every time, There's so much here that I feel is so enlivening that sometimes we think we're handing over power to someone else when in fact, if we're really honest, we don't want to do this thing, or, you know, we're scared and we're blaming someone else, but really it's our voice we need to hear and act on. Oh, it's Good. It's so good, Cindy. Where do people soak the book up? Where do they soak everything about you up? Where do we send them?

They can find the book where books are sold, or thepermissionmissionbook.com, or at drcindy.com. And they can find me on social media at 1ST Lady of Sales.

So wonderful. Thank you for writing this book. You said it was 10 years in the making, and I I know your stories are filtered throughout because you've lived this. I, I have a deep feeling, right?

We—

I think the best things we write are, they're things we needed to hear or still need to hear. So thank you for joining in the middle of your book launch. I'm so excited for it. Oh, all right, everybody, you know I say this, but if you are listening here and don't have a question, I don't think we're doing our jobs because it's deep and multifaceted and nuanced. So we would love to hear from you wherever you see this, on YouTube, on LinkedIn, you know, any social media platform. If you'd like to write to us, let us hear, you know, your deepest question. And I'm guessing the book will answer it, but if not, we'd love to in any way that we can help your journey. I hope this helps you reclaim and trust your voice because the world needs it desperately today. You need it, your life needs it, and the world needs it. Thank you again, Cindy. Come back again with your next book.

So good to see you.

You too. Bye everybody. Thank you. See you. Have a wonderful two Finding Brave weeks, and we'll see you next time.

Thanks so much for joining us today, and please don't forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources, and tips. And tune in next time for your your weekly dose of Finding Brave.