Finding Brave Epis 329 - How To Create a Neurodiversity-Friendly Workplace, with Kristen Pressner

Hello everyone.

This is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created the show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of finding brave, and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business, and career.

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Boy, are you in for an amazing, an amazing experience right now. We have the most inspiring person Kristin Pressner, who I've known a long time now. And what we're going to talk about, I think it is absolutely safe to say, could change your life today, uh, and certainly change how you perceive and relate and connect with other people in your family and everywhere you turn in the world and in the workplace. And I think it's going to change how you operate as well. I mean, that's a big promise, but that's what Kristin's got for us. And we are talking about a lot of things, but creating a neurodiverse-friendly workplace is at the core. But it's also how we need to understand ADHD and neurodiversity in ways that we just don't— millions and millions Most of us just do not. So that's our goal for today. Kristin, I can't thank you enough for taking time. You know, you're brand new, 6 weeks into your amazing new chief people officer role at Nokia. And here you are taking the time. Thank you for being here from Finland.

Oh, thank you, Kathy. Thank you for the invitation. Honestly, I'm a huge fan of your work. And it's an honor to be on Finding Brave. And I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Oh, thank you so much. All right, everybody, let me tell you a little bit about Kristin. I could read 10 10 pages and it wouldn't touch the surface. But I love this: trailblazing people leader. That's you, Kristin Pressner. Believes in the potential in each of us. And you live that. You live it every conversation. I feel it. Chief People Officer for a prominent multinational. Her passion for equity and inclusion has made her a sought-after voice, regularly appearing on international top HR influencer lists and so many more other lists. Originally from the US, Kristin holds both a bachelor's and an MBA and relocated to Switzerland with her husband and 4 children 18 years ago. And now you're in Helsinki. Wow, what an experience. Her provocative TEDx talk on unconscious bias, and I want to touch on that as well, and we'll link to all of these. You must see them and share them with everyone. Open minds worldwide with its blend of enlightening insights, vulnerability, wisdom, and inspiration. And recently Kristin returned to the TEDx talk. It's 563,000 views you've gotten so far, going up every day. To ask the question, what if our understanding of neurodiversity is all wrong? As she explores the surprising reason why so many people can't get it together, the talk is sparking conversations across families, workplaces, and the ADHD community. And, you know, senior HR people, top Voices in ADHD. Within weeks of its release, it caught the attention of the World Economic Forum. Holy crow. Leading to her invitation to contribute to their Global Brain Economy initiative launched at Davos. I mean, it goes on and on, but this is just touching the iceberg of what you're doing in the world. So we, I know we could talk about this 500 different ways and for about 500 hours and we wouldn't touch the surface. But I think a great place to start, and I just want to hug you up about something, Kristin. The unconscious bias TEDx talk, how long ago was that now?

It was exactly 10 years ago.

Is that how I first learned of you?

It was. It was. Yeah. You wrote a Forbes article about the talk. That's it.

And what blew me away is most of us, let's face it, and if this is you, I want you to hear it and take it in. There's a facade we put out in the world, especially if there's a lot of people following our work or our work is influential in a million ways. So many people are not honest. And I don't mean this in a terribly demeaning way, but we don't wanna let out in the world what our terrible flaws are. And we certainly don't wanna let out in the world flaws that would make us think that we're not fully equipped to do the role that we're doing. And that's why when you talked about the bias you had with the two people sitting in front of you, as I remember it, going for promotions and what you thought, it was so revealing and so honest. I thought, this woman is brave. And you repeated it 10 years later. You— and you went on stage with this talk about your family. And how amazing are they that they're encouraging you to do that? But would you start wherever you want to start? But I just watched the talk again for the 5th time, and it hits home in a lot of ways because I live a lot of what you're talking about. What made you say, all right, I've got to get on one of the biggest speaking stages there, there is and talk about my family, what I was doing wrong, what I didn't understand. And now I know millions of people don't understand. What made you do that?

Yeah, thanks, Kathy. It's always interesting when you kind of went back to the beginning of the story, right, which was the first TEDx talk 10 years ago. And I know there were people calling for my termination because I had admitted—

Were they?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As an HR professional, I admitted I am like everyone else, biased. And I sometimes don't know it. And that's, I think, 10 years later, I think that's kind of common knowledge. But at the time, it really was not ever, ever had been said by anyone in a position of power.

That we have unconscious bias, you mean? Yeah, that we have unconscious bias.

Yeah, it wasn't an accepted thing. It was like HR people were expected to be unbiased. And to out myself as being biased meant I was unqualified to do my job. But for me, it was, you know, at the time, it was kind of like I thought, like I intellectually understood unconscious bias and I thought it was something that happened to other people and those poor things should be be less biased. And once I had this experience where I could juxtapose the exact same thing happening between a man and a woman and I had different reactions, then it really hit home for me. Oh, whoa, I hear— I have to be on the lookout for this because it tripped up me, someone who actually gets it and is on the side of equality and fairness.

And so, right, well, that's the whole— someone highly educated, highly experienced in not being biased.

Right. Very slippery. Exactly. And I was thinking, well, if it got me, you know, it's got to get everybody else too. So I should tell everyone and at least provide a potential solution. And I'm super thrilled. I mean, 10 years later, it's got, I think, 800,000 views. And it's— I still get emails from kids saying, you know, my teacher assigned your TEDx talk in Italy, you know. And so for me, the TEDx stage is an amazing one if you feel like you have an idea that's worth sharing. And so to answer your question, about 5 years ago, the bottom fell out in my own family, and there's really no other way to describe it. My kids were starting to get older. For us, the pandemic hit, and I came from working to coming into the home so I could pay more attention to what was going on. And it rapidly became clear to me that, that both my— all 4 of my kids and my husband were— something was wrong. Very, very wrong. And we—

And Julie, you hadn't really seen it in that way before?

No, I mean, there were signs, you know, that way when you look back in the rearview mirror and you're like, hmm, you know, I kind of side-eyed that and that was a little sus, but what I think really, I think that if the pandemic hadn't happened, we might be in a very not good place right now because what it did was there were coping mechanisms that they had intuitively built up in their lives that got ripped away, you know, patterns of, you know, going to school or the office or exercise or rhythms or whatever. And the anxiety that got amped up during the pandemic, the rhythms being removed, made it kind of come, like my visual is like a house of cards that just came crashing down. And, you know, it started with one kid and I'm like, I'm kind of real action-oriented. So I'm like, I'm gonna fix that kid, you know? And then it was like whack-a-mole, you know? I think I would have a path to fix this one and that one would pop up and on it went until it became clear to me, 5 people in my house weren't well. And I was at, I have to tell you, the most rock bottom of rock bottoms because it felt like existential, like they might not survive. And we had anxiety, depression, disordered eating, et cetera. And these can be life-threatening things. And certainly during a pandemic and that certain teenage age group, I mean, depression can be very serious. And I remember kind of making a deal with myself that if I— because I was looking for the quick fix. You know me, Kathy, you know, I'm like, I'm looking for the quick fix. How do I fix them all? And spoiler, there wasn't one. But I made a deal with myself that if I figured out what was going wrong and I could restore my family to thriving and not just surviving, I had a moral obligation to tell the world because I knew in my heart of hearts that there was No way. This was only happening in my house. And so I made a deal with myself that I would— the best platform for sharing something, unless you're an influencer, is TEDx. And so I made a deal that I would do that, and I wrote the talk together with my family and with their permission to share. And I think the real courageous people are my family members who allowed me to use that forum to out them as being neurodivergent, which is something that You know, you can't put the genie back in the bottle once that's out in the world. But they're gifted and confident and courageous enough that they were willing to take that risk because I think we all kind of chalked it up to, it would be a travesty not to.

I mean, people watching this video see me crying. They're heroes. Yeah, because there's so much shame. I mean, exactly to your point of this talk, we don't get it. I don't understand how we don't get it, but we don't because there's no No, that's hyperbolic. There's very little, if you ask me, and I'm reading a lot, information about how people struggle in a world that doesn't understand them around ADHD. I mean, yes, there's lots of books, but I feel like we're not neurotypical people, minds, are not taught how to think differently about this, I think, which is your, your talk really gets at. So before we even move through what you would suggest and, and everything you've learned, what is the number, the percentage of people who have ADHD or are, uh, neurodiverse? What is the number so everyone can understand the scope that we're talking about? It's not— yeah. 2%.

Yeah, it's not 2%. No. So there's varying views and it's not so easy to— it's not like taking a pregnancy test or, you know, so it's— it's the diagnostic is more nuanced. But prevailing wisdom is that 15 to 20% of the general population is qualified as neurodivergent, which generally the diagnostic threshold for that means that that neurodivergence causes enough disruption in your life So for instance, to get an ADHD diagnosis, you need to show that it has a negative, a palpable negative consequence across work or school, your relationships and work-school relationships. And now the last one's escaping me. And so, oh yeah, maybe your health.

Yeah, health, I would guess. Right.

Yeah. And I'm like, but What if, yeah, what if, what about all the people who are right on the edge of that? What about all the people who are suffering? Because like, I have a child who doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria because she hasn't flunked out of school, right? Gotten divorced, you know, fail, if I got fired from a job. And I'm like, so wait a minute, if she did flunk out of school, she's diagnosable. But if she doesn't flunk out of school, but it causes an eating disorder and crippling anxiety and all of these coping mechanisms, that's okay. And so it started to hit me like, We're all on a continuum of neurodiversity. There's a reason for that, and it's good. And to be diagnosable only equates to the amount of suffering because it doesn't fit with the world as it is today. And so to your earlier point, we really, really, really don't understand this. Like, I work in HR, I understand psychology, I could tell you basic things about neurodiversity, about ADHD. The thing is, like most people, I thought ADHD was 9-year-old boys bouncing off the wall, and that isn't how it manifested in my house at all. And so how it manifested in my house are things that most of us would call character flaws— not getting it together, you know, running around looking for your keys and not, you know, not adulting. So like, as my kids got older, I was like, you're 14, you should be able to fill in the blank— find your homework, write a paper without oversight, whatever. And all of the age-appropriate things that I was expecting weren't happening in line with the clear potential that I saw in them. And I mean, I'm in the potential identification business. This is what I do for money. And so I saw all this potential in my family and then all of this would appear to me to be laziness, not giving a hoot, not trying, not applying themselves. And that's character flaws. Right.

And disrespect and not doing what you told your mother you were going to do.

Yes, on integrity, not living into your promises, you know. And so it, it became like I felt like a failure as a mom. Like, what kind of mom am I that I'm raising such bad, character-flawed kids? And it was, um, what I realized was, um, the problem with it is that it's invisible. Whatever's happening is happening in your head. And so what I realized was there are certain things, for example, that, that I can do. And I have this visual of like hurdles. Do I love to do laundry and empty the dishwasher 'and pay my taxes.' No, but I jump over those hurdles and I get them done because they're important. And what I would say to my family, 'It's important, get your paper done. It's important, put your keys in the same place. It's important to leave on time and not have so much stress in the house.' But importance didn't get them going and motivated in the way that it worked for me. And this was a huge unlock for me. I would beat them over the head with what would work for me. And all it would do would be to make them feel worse about themselves because they weren't stupid. And they would go, "Geez, Mom, that's really good advice. I'm gonna try that." And then they wouldn't try it. I would feel gaslit. They would feel bad about themselves. And once I learned that their brain doesn't work the way my brain is, their hurdles for those kinds of things is much higher. And oh, by the way, their hurdles for other super awesome things are way lower. So we can come back to that. But once I realized that the hurdle wasn't the same height for them for those things, we learned how to hack it to make sure that they could get their motivation. It doesn't get triggered by importance. They intellectually understand something's important, but importance doesn't give them the dopamine, the prefrontal cortex things going to make it work. What gives them that is interest. So we had to learn to hack their brains with interest. And what I found, the simple awareness and difference changed my house from barely surviving to absolutely thriving. And it wasn't even that long of a period of time. And I thought the potential impact on the world, if we all better understood this, is on failed relationships between parents, children, spouses, etc. It's unbelievable. And so that was why we said we've got to get the word out on this, and thus the TEDx talk.

I've got a million questions, Kristen. All right, here we go. Kathy, fire away. Very First thing, I think I don't— I didn't hear it in your TEDx talk, but dopamine is a huge thing here, right? Because as you said in the talk, people race to this talk and share it with everyone you know. Um, what's important isn't what matters because the dopamine isn't there for that. It's what's urgent. So waiting till 3 in the morning to do the paper that you knew was due 7 weeks ago that urgency triggers the dopamine. Is that correct?

Exactly. So physiologically, because there's something biological happening with ADHD, and that was also an epiphany for me.

And so it's not just, you know, they're making up thoughts.

This is— yeah. So if you look at my or your brain, there's a certain amount of dopamine or norepinephrine that are the chemicals or the neurotransmitter in our brain that help us get motivated. And so how do we get stuff done? Well, we We get motivated, we take action, and then we get outcomes. It's a simple formula. And what triggers us to get motivated is, as a neurotypical, or what the world defines as "normal," air quotes, is importance. So your taxes are due, your job is starting, you need to catch your train, whatever. That's important, so you get the motivation you need to take action to get outcomes. What I learned with my family is that the physiology of ADHDers is two things. They have way less of those two neurotransmitters, dopamine and norepinephrine. And is my sound okay?

Yeah, perfect.

Okay. Sorry. I could— hearing myself in my own head here. And then the second thing is that the brain's prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for taking action, planning, you know, making multiple steps into something that has a complete end, is delayed. It's smaller. And so, and it's delayed in its development by about 5 years. And so once you understand that there are biological things that are making it supernaturally hard to get triggered, to get motivated, to take action, to get outcomes, in particular on things that are boring, right? Then you're like, it kind of blows your mind. And so if I can make those boring things more interesting, or if I can focus more of their energy on things that they find interesting and less of it on things that create an interest drag, then we can unlock all of the beauty of them. And that was what we ended up cracking the code on. And it's— I think it's really unlocking because then I realized if they struggle with being on time, it's— I'm also human, so I'm not always perfect. But if they're late for something with me, I go, oh, it must be so hard to have so much fewer chemicals than I have that enable you to be on time versus being like, you must not love me. You must not care about me because you're not on time. And so we're just much less judgmental and much like on themselves, but also on one another because we realize they're hurt. Like the analogy I use is I have wind in my back because the world was made for me and they've got invisible wind in their face because it wasn't made for them. Although I would argue in a, as the world evolves with AI, it's going to flip and it's going to be a real competitive advantage to be a divergent thinker. But for for our assumptions on what makes good character today, it's not a great place to be if you have ADHD or neurodivergence.

All right, questions. Thank you for letting me fire, fire at you. You did talk about in the talk, and I've seen this over and over, and I, I don't have the data on this, but in those I am close with or worked with, with ADHD for instance, there's a brilliance that blows you away. That, you know, straight A's can happen when the timing— when that the homework is handed in, when the, you know, when, when the timing fits with the neurotypical world needs. But there's a brilliance, there's an introspection, there's an insight, there's empathy, there's incredible attributes that go along with it. But because it's rubbing up against the norms of our society— be on time, be respectful, careful, do what you say you're going to do. I think those get diminished.

Yeah, that's exactly right. It was shocking to me because I think part of what I was observing as a parent on the outside looking in was I saw all this potential and all this brilliance. And I'm like, why is this— like, you should be like, I should be working for you, man. You're so much, you're so good at things I'm not good at.

Why can't you reach your fullest potential? Why are you frittering away that genius?

Exactly. And that's exactly as a parent how it felt, right? Like, how come I could see this brilliance, the A paper, But, you know, I also saw the effort that it took, and it's exactly what you say. The A paper that was written in a 12-hour marathon the night before with no breaks. And I was like, geez, it seems like a really effortful way to get your paper done, but whatever works for you, you know. But it, it seems so effortful. And then what I realized was challenging, novel, fun, or do-or-die urgent. And that's— I just keep reminding myself those are the conditions.

Say that again slower.

Challenging.

Okay. Novel.

Novel. Fun. Or do or die urgent.

Do or die.

And that's why the cortisol level in our house was so high because no one knew the other 3. So all that anyone used was do or die urgent to get the motivation they needed to get stuff done.

So everyone's running around, you know, and it's so much stress.

And I'm like, hey man, can't you just put your keys in the same place so we don't have this drama every day? Or your wallet or your homework assignment. So I felt really put out by this. And then I would get angry and they would feel even more shame for the fact that they couldn't get it together, back to the air quotes. And once we realized their hurdles were higher, they had wind in their face, and that challenging novel fun could unlock it, the best part is yet to come, which is where you went. They might not be good at the things that we're used to expecting people to be good at. And you said, be on time, be predictable. That's basically what we expect people to be.

Trustworthy. Is how we would twist it. No, you know, you're not trustworthy. You said you'd be here at blah blah blah and you're not.

Exactly, exactly. And, um, but the crazy part is, and I always looked at it because I'm like, it feels like they're making easy things really hard. And then I was like, and it was so crazy because I would be like, but you guys make hard things look really easy, like connecting dots others wouldn't connect, or anticipating the future in ways I couldn't do. Creativity and innovation off the hook, right? And so all of a sudden Later when we cracked the code, I was like, wait a minute, if you think about it, some things for me are easy and other things are hard. Some things for them are easy and the opposite things are hard. Geez, it sounds like maybe we're a good match. I can do the things, you know, I can put a sandwich in front of my son because he forgets to feed himself and he can go be the brilliant person that he is doing what only he can do, which is off the hook, way better than I ever could have done at his age. Wow.

All right, now let me ask this. You said, you know, in a very short amount of time it went from pretty disastrous to thriving. Would you say that— I'd love to know specific tactics, because my guess is, first of all, you had to have a complete metamorphosis on how you're viewing what's happening. Yes, and get rid of the shame, get rid of the judgment, get rid of the less than, and give them what they're needing. What occurs to me is the, the world out outside is not doing that. And was it just that you introduced this new way in your family?

Yeah, it's a great question.

Yeah, because we all aren't going to do that, um, right?

Yeah, I remember thinking —like especially as a parent. And I kind of grew up with this like love and logic parenting, like let the natural consequences teach. And then, you know, the consequences thing. Yes, yes, exactly. If you forget your gloves, your hands will be cold and you'll remember them tomorrow. Exactly, exactly. That didn't work. Just spoiler, that didn't work. And so I started to get really in my head because I was like, if I could, if I could painfully and effortfully orchestrate conditions where things were better at home, that was exactly my wonder. Well, they won't be in the workplace. Well, Mommy won't be there, you know, out in the world when they meet their partner or whatever. So all of a sudden it hit me like, I can't solve for everyone seeing this the way I see it, although I'm sure trying by getting the word out, because I think that you— it's not as big of an effort or change or shift as it looks. And so the way I look at it is we have a perception of what is the right behavior. You know, you talked about be on time, be predictable, you know, be trustworthy. And if we could expand that a little bit and just say, for some people certain things in that frame might be a bit harder and I might not get it, I might not understand it, but I don't need to. If I could just be a bit more flexible with those around me on the assumption that their lived experience might not be exactly the same as mine, so the effort and energy that it takes to do the dishes or to be on time or to find your wallet, if I could just hold the space that that might be actually harder for you than it is for me and to recognize that that would probably be awful, then I could just be a little bit more flexible on how I hold my experience with you. And what I found was that was all it took. And so what happened in our house is I try very hard— we are a no shame zone. When— so then when they're like, I feel terrible about myself, I left something to the last minute, or I feel awful about myself, I can't find my keys, I'm like, let's find the keys together. And we just try to create a low shame environment. Um, and some things are just because everyone's different. And I think this was also hard for me. I told you I was looking for that quick fix. It's not a quick fix because every single person is different, and what is interesting to them in any particular moment is different. So it's more effortful for me because it's less effortful to say, this is indisputably important, so you need to do it, and there's no discussion. It's more effortful for me to try to figure out what might be interesting for you in the moment. But what's happened over time is they have built skill in understanding their own brain and setting the conditions for themselves out in the world where they can find jobs or school. Like, for instance, I've got some that are in school. We are no dopes. If they have to write a really important paper, we are going to make sure it's something they're so interested in, they look forward to writing that paper. So you can't just leave it to chance. You know, I had a kid who had to take like 8 4-hour exams for something for her education program that is ADHD kryptonite. And so, you know, we built in daily rewards for when she was done to kind of gamify it and make it interesting, you know, make it competitive. And so what they've learned to do is kind of set the conditions that it's— they're not unknowingly out in the world putting more wind in their face. And then simultaneously, my wish is that if we could get everyone to just expand that frame of what we treat as normal and okay by a titch, like, is it really that bad if someone's 5 minutes late? To dinner or whatever, I don't think it's really that bad. Once I got a window into the soul of how much pain was associated with how hard it was for them compared to how hard it was for me. Oh gosh, beautiful.

So some little pushback that I, I have this weird sense of what my listeners are— our listeners are going to say, so I'm bringing that as a challenge, but And if you're watching this video, people, you see my eyes got very big. This is not a challenge, but I just mentioned it in another podcast with, uh, Patrick Leden, um, and that was a great, a great discussion. But I learned as a therapist that if you sit in judgment of another human being, you will not be able to help them. You simply will not. And what my supervisor said to me when I was dealing with someone, a patient that was doing something awful that I couldn't truck with, she said, if you can't find something to love within this individual and deeply connect with, you will not help him. And I'm like, love, love? No, I don't love what he's doing. No, you don't love what he's doing, but— and, and it ensued into a conversation with him that open my eyes about why he was doing what he was doing, which was physically hurtful.

But Kathy, that's so insightful and beautiful, right? Because I think human nature is to judge. And here's the worst part about all this, 'cause I talked a bit about comorbidities or whatever, but with ADHD comes on average a decade reduction in lifespan, a 3 to 5 times the death by suicide rate, and comes almost guaranteed 80+ percent likelihood of in addition having a comorbidity that can be deadly. Such as depression, anxiety, disordered eating, substance abuse disorders. So this notion that it's just character flaws and squirrel, haha, funny is palpably wrong. And I think once people would understand that, you get a sense, wow, it must really be hard to be them. And I think the part that hurt me the most, because the way we kind of think about it is those people with ADHD and they know who they are and I just need to be more inclusive. Most people with ADHD have no clue. Right. So they don't know. So the first judgment that's happening is the way they judge themselves, because they say, why does it seem like I have all these gifts and talents, but all these things feel easier for everybody but me? I must be broken. So they're not walking around diagnosed looking for help, they're walking around thinking they're bad humans.

Oh, you're so right, Kristen. That's what's Heartbreaking. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, I have so much to ask. The second piece I want to talk about— I asked you, what did you specifically do? And yes, you're gamifying, you're making things more interesting. If they have, you know, 3 papers that are due and 2 of them bore them silly, can we write on another topic? Sometimes we can't. Sometimes we're gonna write on the blah blah blah of something we just can't. So we can't always do that. Yeah, you're helping them do that. But what I also love that you said is they, they're grown now, you know, they're not 10. They're doing it for themselves is what I'm hearing as well, correct? Because we can't, you know, just like any challenge you and I are having, anyone in the world, we can't just rely on the world adapting and making it easier for us. We also have to do those things that are going to open the pathways for ease given our challenges. So would you touch on that for a minute? Like, you're not there now, but what, what are they doing to help themselves fit in a little less effortful? What is the word? Effortfully. Yeah, perfectly, um, you know, fitting in— not fitting in, going with that flow, that tide that they're a little outside of, if that's an image that works.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I think it does. So, so first of all, I have a lot of parents who reach out to me and say, I'm where you were, you're giving me hope that the movie ends well, right? But they're like, how do I solve for the fact my kid can't get themself out of bed? Or I, you know, I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. And so, um, first of all, I mentioned that the prefrontal cortex is delayed and it's about 5-year delay. And so eventually they grow into their brain, it's just a bit delayed from what you would expect of each particular age group. So I would tell my 19-year-old, I know you're 19. I know you think you should be able to call all the shots that 9-year-olds can, can call, but I think we need to be honest with ourselves that your brain is probably more like 14, 15. And so can we agree that if it's a life or death decision, like getting married or dropping out of school or, I don't know, getting a face tattoo, that you build in someone who's going to be the non-impulsive check before you do those things? And then eventually they grew into their brain, and so it was fine. But, um, how are my now adult kids managing this? So first of all, they have learned not to be ashamed of how their brain works. And they also have figured out, because we took away all the energy that was going into feeling bad about the things that were hard, it gave us the space and the time to explore where was the good and where were the gifts. And there's something also about human nature that if something's easy for you, you tend to downplay it. And so I was like, I know what the world looks like. I work in HR, right? So I know what gen pop looks like and I I can say indisputably you have these gifts and they're differentiated from the rest of the world. So even though it feels easy to you, the rest of the world, it isn't easy to do that thing. So lean into that. And so they've all leaned into towards career and education paths that are very interesting and differentiated for them. I've got one going to the law school in the fall. I've got one studying veterinary medicine. One's, I think, likely to become an HR executive like me. One's going to become a teacher. And so I think each one found to find the thing that lights up their heart and has as little of the downsides or the struggles or the wind in your face as possible. But the other thing that I'm trying to normalize through the talk is everyone is different and everyone has different— even you and I have different conditions under which we're likely to shine or we're likely to not shine. And I would like to normalize— first of all, you have to know that about yourself, and most people don't know thyself well enough. But I would like to normalize saying to one another, "Hey Kathy, what are the conditions under which you really, really shine and thrive? And what can I do to make sure that you're in those conditions as much as possible?" And vice versa for me. If we could just do a titch more of that, it would have a huge effect on our world. Because, you know, if you say, "It's really hard for me to do meetings before 8 AM. I'm just not on, you know, firing on all cylinders." Knowing that and asking for it and having a counterpart work or at school or whatever who says, how about we start at 8:30? You know, could make the difference. Or, you know, I'm no good after lunch, or I can't go back-to-back online all day. I need a break. And so I really want to start to normalize just being willing to give a little to help make other— our counterparts shine more.

Oh, how do I love it? And that is such a good segue to, you know, you're a workplace expert, you know, top, top HR Genius. Can you— what you just described, for instance, I work with a lot of people working with a lot of— in a lot of organizations. They're not flexible. They would never ask that question. The meeting is at 8 because the senior managers want it there. They're commuting at 5 in the morning. They're getting into New York at blah, blah, blah, and they want it at 8. I mean, I don't mean to paint everyone with the same brush, but generally organizations, I don't think that, that, that organization think is not as flexible as individuals within that. Am I making sense? But I would love us to talk about what we can do in the workplace as managers, as neurodiverse people, as neurotypical people. What do we do here? Can you give us 10 tips That's a lot. I didn't prep you. No worries. That are perfect at work to make this work better for all.

Yeah, exactly. So it was exactly it. Like, I think a lot of people watch the TEDx talk and after— I mean, it's, you know, a good talk kind of takes you on a journey and opens, puts a light bulb above your head and you're like, oh, you rewired my brain. I think about this differently now. And I think a lot of people— like, not I think— a lot of people reached out to me and said, I get it. I buy it. Now what? What do I do to get better at this? I don't know what to do to get better at this. And so we can make sure that it's in the show notes. But together with Chris Rainey at HR Leaders, we created an AI-enabled learning journey that meets you where you are and how you learn. And it walks you through real-life scenarios that you have to practice being neuro-inclusive in the workplace. And it gives you feedback as you go so you get better each time. And then you can get a certification at the end. And so I tried to make it something that now I can feel like I'm palpably practicing and getting better. And so it's free. I make no money on this. But Chris is giving it away because we agreed it's a travesty to the world not to. But I think the most important thing you can do, I think, would be invest 20 or 30 minutes in that because it'll give you some concrete things that you can do at the workplace. So that would be a free less than 30-minute thing that everyone can do. But I think you're— I mean, I don't want to paint a rosy optimistic picture of the world. I mean, the reality is sometimes you're going to have 8 AM meetings and you're not an 8 AM person. Same for me, right? I think it's— so we don't have to solve for world hunger. We don't have to solve for perfection. But if you can minimize the— we're picking on 8 AM meetings here. But if you could minimize the thing that makes you perform the least bad, whether that's have fewer 8 AM meetings, not have a job that has 8 AM meetings, etc. It makes a huge difference. And I do want to point out, if you ask neurodivergent people what is the one thing that makes the biggest difference in whether or not they're going to thrive at work or not, it's their manager. Yeah. And so, if you lead people, just go in with a mindset of being a bit more open, that things might be harder for them than they are for you. Be curious about how people shine and thrive. Normalize having that conversation in the office and be willing to be a touch more flexible. The research shows that the accommodations in the workplace that enable someone to be much more effective cost less than $500. No one's asking to work from Fiji. We're talking about noise-canceling headphones, a cadence in the day that's maybe not quite so back to back, so some recovery time, things that are perfectly reasonable if you're a reasonable person.

Wow. So would you say, you know, if you could— we had a magic wand right here and every people manager on the planet incorporated one step or one First it's the action. I mean, first it's the thought, then the action.

Yeah, it's that mind rewiring you talked about.

Rewiring. But okay, let me, let me skip over that. They did one thing, like even this idea. What did you say? What if we asked everybody who works for us, what's the optimal conditions that you thrive in? Yeah, I mean, really ask them.

Exactly. I can— this I can tell you because I'm in workplaces. I see everyone's stressed, everyone's under pressure. I'm sure leaders out there are like, 'I ain't got time for that,' right? It's a lot. There's a lot that are being asked of people. The pace has really increased. But the thing that I see that surprises me the most is leaders talk about how painful it is when they have to backfill people or recruit or things like that. The image I have in my brain is Dorothy on The Wizard of Oz. She could always go back to Kansas. She just didn't know she needed to click her ruby slippers together, right? And we are Dorothy wanting to get back to Kansas. As leaders, you have the great people in your organization already. You don't need to go find them. You don't need to go upscale them. You don't need to get all new people. What you need to do is figure out how to unlock the ones you have. And all that takes is being slightly more open in terms of what good and normal looks like and being slightly less judgmental and a bit more curious. About how people can shine, and I promise you'll be shocked.

Wow, what a way to end this. Thank you so much. I, I'm always just so moved when people are— have become an expert in a particular area. That's inspiring. But then something leads them a little bit off that path to be of help to the world at large. I, I don't know why, because first of all, you have more than a full-time role. I mean, you're incredibly busy managing a lot that impacts thousands and thousands of people and 4 kids, and you just moved to another country. Yet here we go, I have a new AI tool for, you know, and, and I'm doing TED Talk, TEDx Talk. And I want to make a difference in the world. I just find it remarkable. I mean, you truly have so many gifts, Kristen, that just help us be better, live better, be happier. Thank you for all that you do. Where does everybody soak up all of you? Where do we send them?

Well, so I get that question a lot, and so I've compiled all of the different podcasts and work that I've done on kristenpressner.com Great. You can find everything there. And but if you were going to do one thing, I would recommend go watch my most recent TEDx talk. You can Google my name in YouTube and you will find it. Yeah, it'll be in the show notes and maybe share it because I think that if you're listening to this and then going to listen to the TEDx talk, you're kind of in the population that already gets it. But what Kathy and I want to break through to is the vast majority of us, formerly me, who don't get it, who have a really good heart for people, who really want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. And I was inadvertently part of the problem until I figured this out. And so I want to create scale of more people being part of the solution. How beautiful.

And you know what occurs to me? In every community, there are many, many parents dealing with this and teachers, etc. And, uh, Why don't we start at wherever you are? Start a parent group, start a church group, start a community group around this. You know, I've been parts of retreats and women's groups, and it's so life-changing right then and there in 1 hour when you're with people you can be honest with and the solutions start pouring in and the support. You know, just a small act like that. Let me get together 10 parents that I know are struggling. And let's watch the talk together. And there are so many ways we each can take action. And I know that when you do, like, look at the joy that's pouring out of every cell of your body. You, you turned yourself around, which allowed your family to thrive in ways they would not have. Bravo to you, Kristin. You're such an inspiration. Thank you for joining me.

Thank you. Thank you, Kathy. Thank you to all of your listeners. I just, I love the podcast. I love I love your work and it's an honor to be here with you today. Thank you, my dear.

Thank you. Please come back again when you're with your next TEDx Talk, which is gonna be a few days, I think. No. All right, people. Oh no, here's my mic. I hope everyone's hearing me. I hope this inspires you, motivates you. Wherever you see this, will you drop us a note? Obviously on LinkedIn and I will make it a LinkedIn newsletter as well. We would love to hear from you. This is not just, you know, passive talking at you. We hope this is really, we hope it gets in, it motivates, it inspires, it triggers you to think, I gotta do something or say something or be something. We hope that this episode does that for you. And we'd love to hear what it's unlocking for you. Thank you again, everyone. I hope you have a wonderful Finding Brave 2 weeks, and we will see you next time. Thank you again, Kristen.

You, bye.

Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources, and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding Brave.