LBSB AlexMcNaughten v2

What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we're gonna talk about the difference between being good and great within an org. Because so often you hear sales tips, email tips, cold calling tips, all the tips. That's everything that gets Talked about on LinkedIn and shows and everything else, but what people so constantly miss. Management and coaching advice. I have now led 4 orgs with over 100 reps in them. I have been scaling for the last 13 years of my life. And one of my biggest light bulb moments about four years ago was all good strategies go to die at the frontline manager. And it's not because they don't care. It's not because they don't work hard. It's because they've never been coached and taught how to actually drive behavior change. And that is why. I'm sorry, so excited. I have Alex McNaughton on the show with me today. He is the founder and CEO over at Grow AI and we're going to be diving into how to actually manage, how to actually coach that drives performance, drives behavior change, and drive skill development to get to that next level. Alex, my man, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Kevin, for having me on the show.

It's great to be here like this, this topic. I mean, we're going to struggle to keep this one to the timeframe because we could go on this all day. So what I want to start with just right out the gate is what's the difference in your eyes between coaching and managing? Because there is a lot of managers that think they're coaches and there's a lot of coaches that think they're managers, but it's not the same. How do you delineate those two things?

Yeah, it's a really good question and I think let's start there. And I'd love to talk a little bit about, like, how we got to this place is like, you know, why is this a problem as well. But I think coaching is helping someone to improve their capability, come to the answers themselves. It's not just showing them. It's helping them work through problems so that they can get better and ultimately improve their skill set. That's how I think about coaching. I'd love your take on it, though, from a management perspective. You know, that's the. All the cadences and the people side of people is people, people, systems, processes, cadences of running a team. And that is a different thing to coaching. And then there's training as well, which is, you know, effectively just teaching someone a new skill. So, you know, I think a lot of muddling up happens between these areas.

Yeah, I just think it's important because like I think with CEB did a study a while back, they pulled like 10,000 reps and asked them what percentage of them thought they were getting regular coaching from their manager. It was like 17% of reps thought they were getting regular and impactful coaching from their manager. But they also surveyed all the managers and asked the managers what percentage of them thought were providing regular coaching to their reps. And it was like 87%. There's just this massive gap between this which kind of sets up to the next point here of like, so why do you think we are in this place? Like why does this seem to be such a blind spot for so many companies?

Well, I think you have to look at how people come into these management positions and actually how people fall into sales in general. Right. So 77% of people fall into sales. They don't choose it as a career, they fall into it somehow. Then what happens is the best salesperson is typically promoted into a management position. Now chances are that salesperson, like you just said, hasn't been coached about selling. Then we put them in the management position and we said now they're frontline manager. And we say, okay, cool, now you're leading 10 people. Now you're responsible for 10 people. 95% of those managers get no training coaching direction whatsoever on how to even run a sales team. So then what do they do? They just default back to what they're good at, which was selling. So every time that you know, one of their team is struggling, what does the manager do? Jump in. And you know, it's this sort of self perpetuating cycle. And you know, I think it's the fundamental gap across sales orgs is. And it's the thing that leads to the lack of quota attainment. It's the thing that leads to the retention challenges in teams. You know, what is it? 14 month average tenure in sales right now 17 months for you know, someone in a leadership role. It's just this self perpetuating cycle.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's funny, I literally, it's so funny, man. I literally led a manager training this morning with my management team.

Nice.

One of the things, I mean we do bi weekly, but I run bi weekly trainings with my, with my leadership org. Right. Like I have a 15 hour course and Academy they go through to be a leader on my Team. Like, it's heavy to be a leader on, on my team and to get to those promotion levels. But when I talked to them, I was like, the problem is for a lot of you, you were successful in sales without coaching.

Yeah.

And because of that, that's how you lead. Because you didn't need coaching, because you didn't have to practice. Then you pass that on to your reps. And that's not the same. Right. We have this phrase that we say often. I am not you, you are not me. We are not them, they are not us. We have to remember that we can't manage the way that we like to be managed. We can't coach the way that we like to be coached. We have to cater to the individual. So let's go down this coaching path. Right? So we know right now a lot of managers aren't doing a lot of coaching. Right. So what's the advice you give them? Right? Like a manager's like, all right, well, okay, I do want to coach more. I want to be better at it. What are some of the tactics, the tools that a manager can use to, to become a better coach?

I think one of the simplest things that a manager can do is, you know, we'll pick the one on one conversation as the starting point. That's, you know, a lot of the interactions that go on between a manager and that sales rep is slow down a little bit. So, you know, I think the default is to jump in to try and solve the problem immediately. But unfortunately, what that creates is like a dependence. If your sales manager is constantly coming in and just doing the things that you should be doing as a sales rep and solving all the problems for you, you don't actually have to level up. So I think it's slow down. And instead of giving the answer away immediately is help that person come to the solution themselves. Ask them a few questions, you know, ask them what? Okay, so you're struggling with this, you know, let's say it's a, you know, like a specific deal situation. You're struggling with this situation right now. How did you come here? How did you get here? Okay, cool. Tell me more about that. What have you tried so far? And that in itself, it seems so simple. The advice we often give salespeople is ask some open ended questions. But that's what a good manager can do to help one of their salespeople or, you know, their whole team to improve their capability and remove that dependence. It's one of the biggest things. But, you know, I was just gonna Say I empathize with the frontline sales manager because I think it's one of the hardest roles in the world. You're pulled in a million directions. You've probably got too many people in your team. You probably. I saw, I was chatting with a frontline sales manager recently, 16 direct reports. Like, and you're managing up and down and having a coach and having. And it's, it's a lot.

My personal record is 27 as a manager. I had 27 sellers reporting to me directly, right. As just what the hell was, was happening there. And it's funny because the way that you mentioned it, as I've been talking about this more and more, is this the old cliche, right? Your best seller doesn't make your best manager. Right. And what's interesting about that is it's, it's because people stop doing the very things that made them good at sales. As a seller, you did great discovery, but managers never do great discovery on their reps. As a seller, you sold the vision and the better future. But then managers don't sell the better future and vision with their reps. As a seller you did. Objection. Handling. Managers don't do like managing, following up. It's actually the same skills. It's actually that managers stop selling. Right. So I love that first step of asking questions. It's almost like again, leadership discovery, ask the questions, dig in a little bit deeper. You wouldn't let a prospect get off the hook with one answer. You go deeper into it. So I love that. Then where do you go? Right? So I've been asking the questions because there's coming to the solution and then there's actually being able to solve it. Where do you coach from there?

So I think another thing that can massively help the stretched sales manager. So if we use your example right, you had 27 direct reports. If you're trying to do one on one, like if you're trying to fit in one on ones, that's every single day of the month you're going to be doing one on one, right. Like it's insane. So then you have to get a little bit strategic and say, okay, of my 27 sellers, what are the common challenges that I'm seeing across the team? And now let's start to solve those time efficiently. So if I have two thirds of my team over here struggling in a specific area, that's a great team coaching opportunity. If I have one seller over here with a very, very specific problem, that's just them, that's something I'll Solve one on one, and then also leverage the people, the high performers in your team, and get them to help coach as well. So, like a really good example is like one of our clients recently, they, you know, our platform surfaced that one of the sellers in their team, their high performer, was running things in a specific way, and their leader then took that person, gave them a position of, okay, why don't you show the rest of the team how you're doing this? And that person then is like running a training and then effectively being a coach for the other 15 people in the team. And, you know, it's just about how can you, how can you maximize the hours in the day? That's it. You can't be everywhere. And I think that's the first thing that sales managers has to like, admit is like, I cannot be everywhere, so I need to be really smart about the hours I do have.

And that's the thing there, right? Is like prioritizing, first of all, doing the right things. But what you mentioned there is like, we talk about this a lot within my orgs, right? We call it the wiggle.

Right?

We call it the Wiggle. And wiggle stands for what good looks like, right? So like, we talk about the wiggle all the time. What's the wiggle? Do we have the wiggle? Do we even know? Right. And the example you just gave there, it's like once you identify what good looks like, it doesn't have to come from us, 100%. Pull that rep in and share. Because of what we also know in leadership, reps tend to love to learn from their peers more than they do their manager. Yeah, so I'm going to lean into that. Like, I'm not going to fight that. I'm like, okay, what are the best doing? Can I capture that? And then we go through the four Ds, right? So we say define document, demonstrate deliberately practice. So once we know the wiggle, we go to the four Ds. Define document. Demonstrate deliberately practice it.

Right.

We capture it, we explain, define what it is, we document it, we put it in writing, we demonstrate it. We do trainings, recordings, examples, and we deliberately practice it day in and day out till we get good at it. So what's your take on practice? Actually, as we kind of go through this, Right. So you think about skill development. Practice is foundational in my orgs. I'd be curious on your take.

I think the analogy of a sports team, like an elite sports team is really good. Like, what do they do? They're practicing all week for one game. You know, they practice all week, hours and hours a day for that one moment. And sales is actually quite a lot like that. You know, a lot of a lot rests on that 30 minute discovery conversation. So why the hell wouldn't you practice before? Like, why would you leave it to chance? So I think, you know, the best performing sales orgs that I've ever been a part of, or they've been clients of mine over the years have always, always embrace this idea of like continual development, continual practice. It doesn't have to be 10 hours a week. Like if, you know, like we get it, everyone's busy, but make space for it. Like I think any, everyone can commit to 15 minutes a week. Like everyone can fit that into their schedule or five minutes a day, however you want to chunk it down. Like there's always time for that.

Yeah, I like the phrase. This was the training, by the way. I just love my managers was how to run practice the right way. And like, you know, he'd gotten away from it a little bit. How to structure, how to fit it in. Because what I opened with is like the idea of being too busy for practice is actually the very reason why we have to practice.

Yeah.

And I was like, I want you to think about that real quick. If they're too busy to practice, that means they are too busy doing it the wrong way.

Right.

That's literally what that means, is that they are doing the thing poorly. More if they're so busy selling that they don't have time to practice. And that's exactly why we have to practice, because that means they are losing on deals left and right because they're not getting good at it. So it's like we have 30 minutes blocked for every single rep and then 15 additional with each rep and their manager every single week. It's built into the calendar. And then we do, we do some daily just we call them like, you know, prep more than practice. Hey Alex, I got a call coming up with Super Biz this afternoon. We spend like 15 minutes. Let's go through a little bit, let's do some different scenarios and like, you know, practice that out to really ingrain it and put that in there. So, so then let's keep going around this, right? What are some of the other common misses that you are seeing at that manager level? Right? Because I talk to people on this podcast all the time and very few come in talking about like management and coaching, which is why I'm so excited. So like what else are you seeing that has this so top of mind for you.

Like, it was kind of, it's been my life, you know, like I was the classic sales rep who was promot to sales leadership way too soon with no support and Suddenly I've got 12 people reporting to me and I had no idea what I was doing. So that was like my very first job was in a tech startup and things grew quickly and suddenly I'm leading a team. So, you know, and then I moved, moved into consulting, coaching, and then I had a recruitment company and training company. So I, like, I saw all of this, you know, over the last 11 years and now solving this problem with technology, with SaaS. But you know, I think one of the. There's been a few things I've really observed. Like number one is we don't support our frontline sales managers. Right? We don't, we don't give them love. Like, sounds like you're doing an amazing work with your organization. But that is the exception, not the rule. Like 95% of sales managers have never had sales management training. Yep. That's insane. Yeah, that's completely insane. And then, you know, it's, it's a tough job. So I think that's the first thing is like organize at an organizational level. We need more senior leaders like you who are investing in actually supporting their frontline sales managers. I think other Mrs. Are just, you know, like this stuff isn't that complicated. But you know, simple things like let's get our team collaborating and helping each other. Like let's not have 27 individuals in the sales team. Let's get them helping each other because that way everyone improves. If we can get John showing the rest of the team how he's nailing discovery and we can get Alice showing how she's crushing cold calls, it's a win, win, win. Because John feels great, everyone else learns and you look like a rock star manager for facilitating the whole thing. So I think, you know, but I do think the biggest miss is, is that we're not supporting our frontline sales managers to be successful.

Yeah, it's, it's what I'm trying to solve, man. Right. Like, I've launched the sales leadership accelerator. I've built the full course. Right. The same methodologies I use within my own orgs. I've documented, demonstrated, deliberately practice. I put it all together. I'm starting to work with companies this year with this. I've worked with HubSpot and Snowflake and Clearwater. Like, because, like to really install this because it's one of. I'VE described it this way. It's one of like the most commonly accepted, well known, unactioned problems in SaaS.

Yes.

Like, you talk to any leader out there and you go, so how much training have your managers gotten? And 90% of them, like, yeah, they've never really gotten much training. And it's like they know it, but they've never done anything about it. Like, I, when I was doing like market research, I talked to some of the who's who on LinkedIn, right? Like, I'm, I'm close a lot of like, you know, the big names there, you know, and I was talking them through this, like, yeah, like, I like this, you know, like, da, da, da, da, da. Then the last question is like, have.

You ever brought in training for your managers?

And this is one of the best of the best. And I'm like, actually, no, I never really have, you know, and it's like, it's just crazy. Like, people don't think about it. So if you're, if a leader's listening, what would you recommend for them as first steps? Right? Like, how do you start to enable the managers better?

Oh, before I answer that, I think I'll just give you my take as to, I think, why this. I think this has happened. I think it's been certainly as long as I've been in the workforce anyway, it's been like a cheap money environment. So a lot of bad behavior has perpetuated because money was cheap. So it was like, it's okay, you know, like 40% quote retainment. It's okay, just add another body. And now suddenly it's turned quite quickly and that's not, it's not going to fly anymore. I just don't, like, I can't foresee that continuing in the current environment. So, you know, I guess. Why am I saying that? Because now is the time to do it. Because if we don't, companies are going to fall over, you know, sales teams are going to disappear if we don't solve it. So, sorry, what was your original question, Katie? I got myself distracted in that impassioned rant.

Basically, how to start enabling.

How to start. First things first is recognize it's a problem. Like someone in senior leadership needs to just call out that this is a big gap. And I think sales is the place to start because, you know, sales keeps the lights on. You know, if the sales team aren't performing, then the organization's in serious trouble. So, you know, I think the first thing is just recognize it's a problem. I think Second thing, start small. Start small. Like senior leaders who are managing these frontline sales managers. Like what you've just described is just start doing it, start coaching them, start imparting some wisdom on them or you know, looking for solutions, capability building programs, whatever it might be, and just carve out a small bit of budget for it. Like that. That simple. Really recognize the problem, start doing it and then make, make some budget for it.

Yeah, it's, it's something that needs to be done. Right. Because leaders are leverage. And this is what I think so many orgs miss. Leaders are your leverage. One leader gets better, that positively impacts 10 to 15 people.

Yeah.

Versus trying to make one rep better with some sales training and hoping it sticks, which it won't by the way, because the manager doesn't know how to reinforce it and coach to it. Right. So it's just something where it's really, really dialing in, like getting them the help they need. Because this is the biggest lever. Right. Because earlier point, they're busy too. They're doing so many things. Like are there certain things that you see managers spending time on that they shouldn't instead of like the stuff that would really drive it?

I have seen managers get too busy in the administrative side of sales management, as in they will invest too much time in reporting and spreadsheets and looking at the numbers. And I'm not saying that's not important, like it's an important part of the job, don't get me wrong. But it's easy to get lost in it and forget about what's actually going to drive performance. And is it tweaking that spreadsheet for another three hours or would you be better off spending half that time with your team coaching them? The other one is actually.