005 - Matt McLeod - Award Winning Basketball Coach

Alright guys, welcome to the next episode of Next Level Athletes. I'm super excited to have Matt McCloyd here with me. He's awesome. If any of you don't know who he is or what he does, go look him up. I'm excited to have this conversation with him and kind of get some golden nuggets from the wealth of knowledge that he has. So for those of you who don't know, Matt works in a lot of different areas of basketball, and one of my favorite camps that I went to growing up is PGC, Point Guard College, and And there, there I learned something that I've like held with me for the last 7 years. And it's PGC taught me to get comfortable being uncomfortable. So Matt, I have this question for you. So we want to get comfortable being uncomfortable. What do you do every day to get uncomfortable?

Well, Kelsey, first of all, thanks for having me on. Really excited to be on the Next Level podcast. Podcast. And yeah, shoot, that was a great quote. We actually, uh, PGC stole that from Steve Nash. Um, he talked about one time in an interview and one of the things that made him great. And even though my playing career is done now, I'm still looking for ways, uh, to make myself uncomfortable. And actually, the newest one I've picked up is, uh, ending every shower in the morning with 30 seconds of like super cold water coming out. Um, yeah, I just think it's so good. Like, one way to, to level up as individuals is our mindset and how we start the day. So important. And I found like I hated it at first, and I'm not saying I enjoy it now, but it's like becoming a little more normal. But just that uncomfortability of ending a shower cold and walking out, like— but it's crazy how rejuvenated I feel. You know, we've all been there, nights we don't sleep as much as we want to, we either stay up too late or big quick turnaround for where we have the next day. And I've just found, man, I'm so much more effective throughout the course of the day. So yeah, to answer your question, it's the cold shower. Um, it's coming in clutch right now.

Well, that's awesome. I mean, I've also kind of jumped on the cold water, cold plunge era. My husband got me into it quite a bit and it is crazy how, and the first time I did it, I got in and I was just like, I can't do this, I can't do this. And I just like let my mind freak out and it took over. And then like the second time it was kind of funny because that was right as I had gotten pregnant with my my little boy. And so I stopped doing it for that time being. And then after I had had him, after I had been through a lot of physical pain and physical challenges through pregnancy and such, I come back, I'm postpartum, I get in and I'm completely cool, calm, and collected. I sat, I could sit there.

That's awesome.

40-degree water for as long as possible. And I think it was like 3 minutes and I was fine. And it just kind of showed me how every time we do something hard, like, it's kind of the new set point for our brain. And we're like, okay, I can do this. This is my new set point. Like, I'm only going up from here. And so, and there is something I saw you post, uh, recently about Kobe Bryant and a quote that he gave. He talks about mental toughness and how it's defined as having the ability to take your mind to a different place. A lot of people think like mental toughness is just pushing through it, having like white-knuckling, doing all that. But I love that he describes it taking your mind to a different place. Can you expound on that?

Oh man, I know, like, you know, I've actually realized in the last couple years how much I underappreciated Kobe when he was playing. You know, I'm not a Laker fan, I'm not from the West Coast, but like, yes, so much of what he talked about and what he did, we can learn from so much. You know, I read a study one time that said that 95% of the decisions that we make are based on how we feel in the moment. And I don't know about you when you were playing or things you do now, but like, there's so often I don't feel like doing things. Like, I might feel nervous, I might feel scared, I might feel unsure of myself. And so to me, that quote's talking about like, if we allow ourselves to just base our life on our feelings versus getting out of our own way, you know? And so to me, that's what that whole thought is of going someplace else. It's going to a place you want to be. You know, you want to be a college athlete? Great. Start training like one now. You know, college athletes, the morning is early. Probably have a lift or a conditioning session or something going on. Then it's a full day of classes, then it's in practice, then it's study hall in the evening. And then again, just on repeat. But so often, like, how do I feel in the moment? Do I want to, if I'm a high school athlete, do I want to play video games? Do I just want to go hang out with my friends for the 4th or 5th night in a row? Man, I really don't wanna get up and get a workout in before school 'cause I'm tired. And so I think that's the idea. It's taking our mind to the place that we want to be and letting the way we act in the moment live out that place we wanna be in the future.

Huh, that makes a lot of sense. It actually reminds me of this book that I'm reading. It's called "Your Future Self Now." It's by Benjamin Hardy. Really great book for anyone who wants a good read. But it's essentially exactly what you're saying, we need— we have our current self and we have our future self, right? And he said that it's just kind of like a bank account, um, our future self is. And every time we make a decision for our future self, we're putting money, we're investing into that future self towards what we want in the future. We want something more, like we give up what we want now for what we want in the future. And so we're doing that. But every time we do something that takes away from our future self, like instead of going to the gym or getting reps in, we're, we're going to just sit on social media, we're going to stay at home playing video games, like kind kind of mentioned, we're taking away, we're going into debt into our future self. So I love, I loved that imagery of I'm either like, and you can't, you can't stay in the middle, you're either giving or taking from your future self. So I love the idea of every choice I make, even though I don't, might not like it in the moment, I'm gonna be investing into my future self so that I can be where I want to be 6 months down the road, 1 year down the road. And I wish I would have had that as an athlete I was blessed to have pretty great mentors to help me stay on the right path. But if I would've had that thought and that imagery of, okay, I'm investing into this future self, this person I want to be, these goals that I have, it would've helped me tenfold become the athlete and the person I wanted to be at age 18, 19, 20.

So yeah, no, agreed. You know, the athletes that I work with, because outside of basketball, sorry, Kelsey Higginson, I didn't mean to jump. I must've had a little bit of a lag there, but outside of Basketball. I also do a lot of mental performance training with basketball athletes, lacrosse athletes, soccer athletes, like all across the board. And one thing that we talk about all the time is just asking yourself this question: does it serve me? Right? This thing that I'm about to do, does it serve me? Like that book you're talking about, Your Future Self, like that's what we're thinking. Does it serve my future self? Is this the best thing I can be doing in this moment to become the person I want to be in the future? And so often what I found, and I'm sure you found it as well, it's not what I want right now. It's what I want most that I have to focus on. Right. So that's that. That's that whole mindset of does it serve me? I'm just delaying the gratification a little bit, man. It could be a lot of fun to play, you know, Xbox. Shoot, I was playing Xbox 2K with my sons last night. Right. But we had that time set. And for me, did it serve me in the moment? Yes. I'm building a relationship with my sons. They get to win, you know, about one every 15 or 20 times because I'm still the dad. I still like to win. But right. So, but it's not just the video games for enjoyment. It's, it's putting into it. And I think even sometimes, you know, as athletes, there's almost the reverse that can happen where we become so focused on just ourselves and our own training that we can miss out on developing relationships with our teammates. And so I'm not saying that, you know, all video games are bad or all hanging out is bad, but like, what is the purpose of it? Is this serving the team that we want to become? If we want to become a great team that's got great chemistry, we've got each other's back. Well, you've got to bond before you can battle. So whether it's like a team meal or team time together, hanging out, going to do whatever it is that we enjoy to do. But it's always like you said, finding that balance. You know, who do I want to be in the future? Great. What do I need to do today to get to that place I want to be in the future?

I, I think that that's so important to touch on. You mentioned you're a mental performance coach. I'm actually a nutrition coach. For athletes. And this is something that's extremely overlooked at times until you get to the Division I pro level. Kids, kids can get away at times with eating crap, right? They can get away with going to McDonald's and doing all that stuff. And I'm not saying that they can never do that with the athletes I'm working with, but it's, it's the very same principle of I ask them like, does it serve you? Like, your body is a Ferrari. Well, if you have a Ferrari, what type of fuel are you going to put into it? And I'm like, you only get one of them, right? Like, most people aren't going to go and buy a new one. And they say, okay, I'm going to put the best fuel possible into it. And so I flip it on its head and I'm like, okay, so if you only get one body, what type of fuel should you be putting into it if you want it to run at premium, like at the best possible elite level that it can? And they're like, oh my gosh, like I need to be— I need to be fueling my body the best with the best possible fuel. And so I love that idea of Okay, so you have this choice to go home and eat your mom's home-cooked meal, um, with the protein and the carbs and like all the vegetables and all good stuff, or you can go to McDonald's and eat some fries and some chicken that's probably not even chicken. And I'm not saying it's always bad, but I'm just saying like, is it serving you? Is it, is it bringing you towards that future goal that you have? And obviously there's a lot more things that we touch on But I love that to get that in their minds of like, we want to fuel your body. And I love the idea that you're saying like, we want to fuel your mind with those, those good things. Like the more confidence we can give them, the better it'll translate onto the field and into, into their lives, their performance.

Yeah, for sure.

So, um, so we're talking about, we mentioned Kobe. Um, I love to talk about the truly great players out there. I mean, from a basketball standpoint, we've got LeBron, we've got Jordan, Kobe, Steph. All of those different types of players, the GOATs, I guess you would call them. How much of their greatness do you think comes from their skill level and their athletic abilities versus their mental toughness?

That's a great question. You know, I think it's, uh, the answer is yes, it comes from all of it. Uh, the players that I work with, you know, let's go basketball specific, right? Okay, you want to be a college athlete. Only 3% of all high school basketball players have the opportunity to play in college. And I know you know this is true, but anybody who's watching or listening, that's not just D1. That's any college anywhere in the country. Like post-high school, 3%. And so first of all, if you don't have the skills, you can't be a GOAT. You know, like there's— when we talk about GOATs, nobody was someone who never started a game or only averaged a couple of minutes, right? Like if you want to be like the greatest of all time, maybe the greatest version— excuse me— the version of yourself that you can become, You've got to have the skills. But what I think a lot of people know that's why we see so many— I'll be in the gym tonight working with some athletes and it's a facility that has 3 courts. All 3 courts will be rented out from 4:00 PM until 11:00 PM. Like there are kids in there, high school athletes, and those guys working on their game. People understand that. But I think what we really miss out on is the mental side. And I call that a separator. You know, if you want to play at the next level, if you want to be the best version of yourself as an athlete or a human being you can be, you have to find separators, things that separate you from everybody else. And I've just found that, that mental performance, or really I just call it mental toughness, you know, to me mental toughness is a muscle that we can develop just like any other muscle we have in our body. But we all know we have to spend time in the, in the weight room developing our muscles. We can't just walk by the weight room every day or never do any push-ups or sit-ups and expect our physique to change. But what are we actually doing to work on our mental toughness? And what are you doing to work on our mental performance? And I think that's what separates those GOATs. You know, you watch Steph Curry shoot, or you watch, um, shoot like Christy Toliver, right? All-time leading 3-point made in WNBA. When you watch world-class shooters like that shoot, when they miss, they look a lot different than average high school game that we go watch on a Tuesday or Friday. Because I call that just emotionally vomiting, right? A player misses a shot. Oh, like, just— they're just vomiting their emotions all over the floor. And it's because this is poor body language. It's because their mindset isn't right. Steph Curry misses a 3. What does he do? He laughs, right? Because he knows he's putting in the time, he's putting in the work. And that's the exception to the rule. You know, like, I'll never forget right after Golden State played the Toronto Raptors in the NBA championship. Right, in Game 6, the Warriors had to win that one to force a Game 7. Steph had a chance at a 3 at the very end. He missed. Ball goes rolling. Eventually time runs out. Raptors are world champions. And after the game, in the postgame news conference, an interviewer asked him like, Steph, like, what would you do differently? Like, that shot, basically, what regret do you have? And he just basically kind of looked at the person like they were crazy, right? Because Steph, it was a crazy question. He's like, what do you mean? He said, Coach, you have a great play. When I caught the ball, I had a clear sight of the rim, meaning like there was no contest, no hand was up above his eyes. Like it was him and the rim and he was locked in. He's like, and when the ball came off my fingertips, it felt great. He said, I will live and die with that shot every single time. It's like, yeah, I missed tonight. You know, it was almost like he was playing some, you know, mid-November game that doesn't— this is a random game in the NBA schedule. No, this was like the NBA championship. And he was like, it is what it is. I'm going to hit the next one. I'm confident of it. And then what's really crazy, Kelsey, is he walks out, Steve Kerr walks in having not been in that room. Another interviewer basically asked him the same question, would you differently? He's like, what do you mean, what would I do differently? I have the best shooter in the world with a clean line of sight on a 3 that he makes hundreds of times every single day. He's like, yes, Steph missed this one and we lost, but he's going to hit the next one. I would put him in the same situation again.

Right.

And so that's that separator. Like Steph's got the skills. But what he recognizes and what great coaches like Steve Kerr recognizes, he has the mental toughness that one missed shot doesn't affect the next shot. You know, like in baseball or softball, one strikeout doesn't affect my next at-bat. You know, like whatever it is, like just making sure that if we want to be at the top of our game like these GOATs with mental performance, it's, it's focusing on the next thing and not letting one individual success get us too high or one individual failure get is too low.

I think that's super important to touch on, and I like how you said, like, obviously you need the skills, the athletic ability, you need all those things to become a pro player. And, but I, I'm trying to figure out how to articulate this. Once you get to that level, once you get to the NBA, I mean, Steph's— a lot of Steph's teammates probably have put in similar time, similar reps, but do you Would you say that that's, that's the main separator between him and the others that makes him that much better of a shooter and everything like that, is just he's got it in here? Is that what separates it?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think— I don't know if you saw last weekend, uh, with the NBA All-Star Weekend and where Steph and Sabrina had their shoot-off. And what was really cool to me, because to me Sabrina— I should have mentioned her earlier, right? She's that same, like, best— I would say best female shooter in the game right now. Steph's the best male the game right now. And just both of them, they had it like, as you were watching their faces when the other person was shooting, like, of course they wanted to win, but they were actually just like appreciating the greatness they were watching. You know, when Sabrina had like 9 of her first 10 or something like that, and Steph was just like shrugging his shoulders and laughing like, all right, I gotta show up, I gotta come. Um, but in the same thing with Steph was shooting, and we basically got to above her mark, and she was just smiling like, man, You know, I think that great players like that— I'm trying to say, great players like that understand they're doing everything they can, and then they just let the outcome be the outcome. You know, I think a lot of times at younger athletes or less experienced athletes, right, athletes at lower levels, they focus so much on what they cannot control, and it just ruins their mental health, their mental performance, right? They're focusing on if coach plays them or not as much as they want to, uh, the referee, the calls they make or don't I make? Is, is Bae talking to somebody else in the stands versus watching them play, right? Like all these different things that we can't control as a player, like get the best of us. But what great players do is they focus on what they can control, right? Like they can control if I miss a shot, do I sprint back on defense? They can control when I get subbed out, whether I like it or not. I don't— when I was coaching, so I was a high school head coach for 14 years, you know, uh, high school teams I coached, we had 32 minutes per game. And everybody wanted to play more, right? I was that player when I was playing. I got a player one time that averaged 31.5 minutes a game. And one day he was like, yo, Matt, we got to talk about this. I need more playing time. I was like, PJ, dude, you're playing all but 30 seconds a game on average. He's like, yeah, but what I got to do is stay in there. And I love that, right? Like, it wasn't a selfish thing about him. Like, as athletes, we want to play more if we're not playing every single moment. But just understand, like, again, if I get subbed out, whether I like it or not, How does my body language show up when I'm walking past the person who's coming in for me? Am I just pissed about it? Like, what does that say to them, right? What does that— what does that do to their performance over the next 30 seconds to a minute? What am I saying to my coach about how much I believe my teammates? And so I think so much of just how we like show up in the controllable moments, what I call them, is going to make a huge difference. Like, you got to let go sometimes of things you can't control. That referee makes the 17th bad call in a row. Like our yelling and screaming, or our coaches yelling and screaming, or our parents in the stands. Like, no referee ever said, oh, my fault, everybody's upset, let me change my call for you. All right, that doesn't happen. And so stop focusing on things we can't control, but focus on things we can control. And that's going to help us perform at a high level like some of these greatest of all times.

I wish I would have had— I wish I would have learned that when I was a kid, when I was a 17-year-old girl playing, because I definitely let my let my mind get the best of me at times in the game. I would focus on things that I could not control. I'd focus on, am I playing good enough to get recruited? I am. Am I being seen? Am I, like, am I doing this? Like, we lost the state championship by 3. Like, I was focused on, oh, I've got to win. I've got to get that trophy, that banner, instead of just showing up. And I love that you said the controllable moments. That, that's huge. Just literally taking it play by play and controlling what you can in that moment. And what's crazy is, like you said, that's what the great players do. You told— you just said that Steph Curry, like, the great— one of the greatest players of all time, he just controls the moments that he can. And then he's like— and if, if things don't go his way, he's like, dang, like, next year it's ours, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And that was— I— you appreciate it. When I was a player, I was the exact opposite of everything I just talked about, you know? If I was, if I was 5 for 5 for 3, I was talking trashing the student section of the other school. I was, you know, and if I'd missed 2 or 3 in a row, like, I wasn't getting back on defense. When Coach subbed me out, I was going to end the bench, and I was sulking and would always wonder why it would take forever for him to put me back in. You know, like, you and I, I think we're in the same place. Like, these are the things I wish I would have known because I had a great playing career, but man, how much further could I have gone if I had known some of these things? So yeah, I appreciate you saying that.

Yeah. I feel like it's hard. I mean, for me, if I thought about it as a 17-year-old, I, I knew I wanted to be mentally tougher, but I didn't know how to get there. And you have the Steph Currys, you have the people who are just locked in. I mean, if you, if you know who David Goggins is, you have those people who are just insanely mentally tough. So it doesn't come overnight, right? Um, you just talked about how it's a muscle that can be worked on, can be grown. So if I'm an athlete who has zero mental toughness, who sulks, who feels like they— like one bad thing happens and their whole game goes out the window. If I have zero mental toughness, what would be the first thing that I need to do to get to a level 1?

Oh, such a good question. You know, actually, one of the things I do with the teams I work with is the first time that we're together, we talk about 3 ways to become a high-performing, you know, mental athlete. I call it a mental athlete, like in a good way, right? Like, here's how to be elite. We with your mindset. And it's actually a couple of things that we've already talked about so far today, with the first one being, you know, what is your mindset? There's a book called Mindset by Carol Dweck. And in her book, she talks about the difference between a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. And fixed mindset says, you know, it is what it is. Like, I can't change it, I can't control it. It's just, it's a very, very limited belief system, you know, like, I'm bad at math. Everyone in my family is bad at math. I can't change it. You know, like, my coach hates me. It doesn't matter what I do. I'm not going to play. It just— it is what it is. And so, like, we don't actually work on the things. We have a fixed mindset. On the flip side, growth mindset is really just these 3 letters: Y-E-T, right? It's the idea of the concept of yet. Okay, I just haven't done well in math yet. I haven't earned the playing time because my skills aren't where they need to be yet. And I think that's a huge place to start if we're looking to try to grow that, that muscle of mental toughness in who we are, is how we play as an athlete, regardless of our sport, is what's your mindset like? You know, I think about— I was actually watching an older game, I was rewatching some film, I was working with the team and was looking at some NBA clips just trying to find the things we talking about. And there's one defensive possession— this was, uh, I think about, what, a year ago or so? Because Chris Paul's still playing the Phoenix Suns. And there's a point in the game where LeBron James gets the ball in that pinch post where he's like 6 feet away from the basket. It's like, it's LeBron James's scoring spot, right? This version LeBron, if he needs a bucket, he's getting about 6 or 7 feet away from the rim. He's got his butt to the baseline, shoulder toward the rim, and he's just going to work. And so you have Chris Paul who's barely 6 feet tall, right? Like, I've had the opportunity to stand beside him. He does not know me, but I stood beside him one time, and it's like, I could play in the NBA if that's all it took, right? Like, because he's not— he's not this, this alien of a human being like so many NBA players are. Um, and there he is guarding LeBron James, who he gives up 8 or 9 inches to, but he also gives up like 90 pounds. And I think, you know, if I think about high school Matt or some of the athletes that I work with, athletes that I, I I get a chance to interact with all across the country. In that moment, we're thinking, I'm toast, I'm done. I'm giving up 8 or 9 inches. I'm giving up 85 or 90 pounds. Like, and it's LeBron. LeBron's going to get a bucket. Um, to me, that'd be a fixed mindset. Where the growth mindset is what I saw Chris Paul doing at play. Pulled the chair out of LeBron. LeBron stumbled on it. Chris Paul knocked the ball out of his hands, got a turnover, started a fast break for the Suns. And so the growth mindset is like, what can I do in this moment to be successful? Like what I have not done yet, even though LeBron already had like 30 that game, going whenever that moment was when he caught the ball. But Chris Paul's like, alright, bet you've got your 30, but this is one possession right here, and I can change that. So I encourage anyone who's looking to start off this journey of mental toughness, it's just being aware of your mindset. What are you saying to yourself? What are you thinking about? Are you focused on the positives and negatives? But just beginning to experiment with with and try out having a growth mindset. Hey, it just hasn't happened for me yet. What do I need to change? Do I need to spend more time working on my skills? Maybe that's why I'm frustrated I'm not playing. Maybe I need to stop listening to other voices besides my coach in the middle of the game and just focus on, focus on his or her voice to be locked into what they want. Like, to me, that's mental toughness. Because there's a lot of distractions in our life, whether it's in the middle of a game or in the middle of the day. And mentally tough athletes, they eliminate those distractions to focus on what's most important. So I'd say those are two ways to start out for sure.

One thing that comes to my mind is anyone who really wants to be really great at something has to do things differently than the normal status quo. And whether that's sports, whether that's business, whether that's anything, if you want to truly be elite in something, You can't just do average things that the normal average person does and expect elite or high, high results. You have to do something different. And at times that makes us look weird, that makes us look different. But something that I'm learning in my life right now is I can either let life happen to me, I can be a victim in my life, or I can have that growth mindset and say, okay, how can I change this? How can I create my reality that I really want? How can I, how can I go for these goals and these dreams that I have and make them real? I think a lot of times people see their situation, they're like, don't have the height, don't have the skills, or like, don't have the height, don't have the genetics, don't have this or that. So therefore I'm never going to make it. That's totally fixed. So you've worked with a lot of different athletes over your years. You were head coach for 14 years. You're, you work with a ton of PGC athletes every summer. If one person comes to mind, who is the most mentally sound player that you have worked with?

You know, it's a really good question. Um, actually, there's a couple people who jump to mind, and we're gonna go big name first, right? Because I could talk about athletes that the people— nobody who's watching this podcast is ever— is aware of or known about. Um, but a couple of them jump to mind. But one person that I have gotten to spend some time with. Like, we weren't in this— like, I wasn't coaching him up or consulting him. I just— I got to meet and spend a couple of weekends with Enes Kanter when he was still playing in the NBA. So if you're not familiar with Enes Kanter, played in Kentucky, was the number 2 or 3 overall pick in the NBA draft, had a great career, places like Utah, Oklahoma City, Portland, Boston. Man, high, high-level player. And so we were talking about it one time and because here's what's funny. And Kelsey, I know, you know, this is true, but maybe some of our, our listeners or watchers aren't aware. Every player in the NBA and the WNBA can make threes at a high level, right? Like in high school, you've got the big— that's just a terrible 3-point shooter. That's why coaches let them shoot. But like you could take people in the NBA like, like Enes Kanter, who maybe averaged half a 3 a game, like in his best season. I'd have to look it up. I don't know off the top of my head. But in training, EK would make 7, 8, 9 out of 10 threes. And so part-time we were together, we were in the gym. Part-time we were together hanging out. And I actually did a little like a Q&A with some athletes with him. And so just got to get the whole experience. And a couple things I learned from him that, to use to answer your question of him being such a mentally sound athlete, like I asked him, I said, man, EK, why don't you ever shoot threes in a game? Like obviously you can make threes. And I thought I knew, but I just want to hear what he said, right? Just kind of playing dumb with it. And he said— and this is the time he was in Portland— and he was like, well, 4 words: Dame Lillard, CJ McCollum. Right? Like, and so why I use that as an example is he knew his role on the team, right? For the Portland Trail Blazers to be successful as they could be as a team, it was not his job to shoot threes, right? Even though, like, actually they would tell him to. Like, he said, Dame, I'm like, You get hit like you're open, shoot. He's like, no, dog, like, that's your job. I'm going to get rebounds. I'm going to set screens. I'm going to do this. And I think for so many athletes, they don't realize that accepting their role is the way that you live out mental toughness, right? We all want to be the star of the team, right? We all want to be the one who scores the most points. We all want to be the one that does this and gets the highlights and the IG likes and all that stuff. But if we're to be truly successful as a team, there can't be 10 stars or 12 stars. You know, like there can be a star, maybe two, you know, maybe, maybe there's a third somewhere sometimes. But for the most part, like a, to me, one of the most like resounding ways that we can live out mental toughness is accepting our role and then starring in our role. Right. I heard a coach say it like this one time, like everybody can't be the star of the team, but everybody can star in their role. And so with, with EK and others that I've been around, like to me that was like, wow, like how impressive that is. And that is mental toughness. That's not like, oh, I'm not as good. Oh, I said like, no, like he was fully confident in his ability and knew he'd actually do more to be successful. But accepting the role to make your team successful, man, that was so impressive for me. And actually, the second thing that I learned from him, you already mentioned earlier, Kelsey Higginson, with nutrition, it was drastic. Like, and this was years and years ago, the first time I met him. And so I knew at that time, like, I knew they ate differently and I knew, you know, professional athletes were a little healthier than the rest of us, but like, I didn't really know what that meant. And when we were doing this Q&A that I was facilitating, one of the kids asked me, you know, what's your, what's your favorite thing to drink? And he said, water. And then just like waited for the response. And then she was like, what, what do you mean water? And so like, I kind of, we did a little follow-up. As I said, um, you know, basically the way it came out was like, well, why water? Why not? We see you guys drink Gatorade on the sidelines. We see you guys promote Gatorade. It's one of the biggest sponsors of every sport. And I'm not hating on Gatorade. Like, there's time and place in all these things. But if all you're drinking is Gatorade, it might not be best. And he said, you know, he's like, most of the time, even when you see us with the Gatorade bottles, it's just filled with water because water is the best thing that we can put in our body while we're competing. Yes, we need electrolytes. Yes, we need these other things, but we have to be aware of the sugar. And to me, nutrition, is an example of mental toughness because I don't want to eat healthy all the time, right? Like other things taste really, really good or maybe taste better than what is best for me to eat. And to me, that's mental toughness. And so I'd say, you know, for him at the pro level, those two things I think so many people listening and watching this podcast as high school athletes or college athletes might need to hear is be mentally tough and accept your role. Doesn't mean don't work on your skills to get better and have a bigger role next season or try to increase your role. Role, but like star in that role. And the second thing would be, man, be aware of what you put in your body. Because like you said, it's that Ferrari, we only get one of them. And can we get, can we get that thing like humming and driving as fast as possible for as long as we can?

As I was hearing you talk about this, most kids want to be the star, but you talk about being the star in your role. How do you feel like recruiters handle that? Do you feel like recruiters want to see more of the kids who are starring in their role versus trying to be a star?

That's a great question. You know, I think speaking specifically for basketball, because that's where I spend the most time talking to college recruiters and being around them and helping even them discover talent, is this: it's sometimes less about your total numbers and more about your efficiency, or how well do you do the thing they're looking for. I'll give you an example of what I mean by that. You know, there are a lot of people that score 20 points per game in high school. You know, it's actually not that difficult depending on the minutes that you get and how many shots you take to get to 20. But like one, one, one year we had a Division I coach in our gym. He was watching a couple of guys on our team doing our workouts and he shared this thought with them was, look, We know that you can score, but how many shots does it take to get to that point? And so if someone's taking 20 shots a game to get to 20 points, the recruiter knows that's a lot different than someone who takes 10 or 11 shots per game and can get to 20 points. And so that's where I think, like, again, they're— they want to find a combination. Like, you've got to have the skills, just like we talked about. You have to have the skills to get to that next level. But also, like, How efficient are you? Like, how long does it take you to do that? Can you get 20 and have 5 or 6 assists versus 20 on so many more shots because you never pass the ball? Or on the flip side, like, what is the role that this college recruiter is looking for you to play when you come to them? You know, if you're, if you're someone who's more of a big and someone they're gonna need to play really hard defense and to get rebounds and do those things, they probably actually don't care if you score at all, but how hard are you working on the offense and defensive glass to get every single rebound? You know, how hard are you working when you get switched off onto a guard on the perimeter to stay in front and force a contested jumper versus letting that person get all the way to the rim for a layup? And so again, it's not like, oh hey, you don't score points, great, we still want you to play. Like, I'm not, I'm not advocating that, but it's, it's this bigger picture. I think a lot of times we as athletes, we zoom really, really tight. It's just how many points have I scored, right? How many shots did I make? Um, those things that are very easy to define. But college recruiters, they zoom out and they're taking in all the information. Okay, yeah, you scored this many points. How many shots did it take? Yeah, you made that many shots, but again, was it a high volume? Um, what did you give up? Did the other player that you were guarding score as many as you did? Because, man, we can't have an an even number there. We have to get you to get stops while you score. And so I think it's, it's a combination of those things, um, as college recruiters are looking. So yeah, you definitely got to have some numbers, but again, what's the bigger picture? What's your efficiency? What are the other things you do to make your teammates better? Um, are you diving on the floor for loose balls? Are you listening to your coach in the huddle? Um, so many of those are the separators when it comes to, do I get a chance to play in college or not? Am I a D3 or a D2 player, am I D2 or D1? Those are the separators that are helping you level up as a player and keep other players playing at lower levels.

I feel like we should just stop there because that was such good advice right there. I don't, I don't think most kids understand that. I think that they, I think that listening to this, hopefully you kids out there who want to go on and play at the next level really take this to heart 'cause this is absolute gold. And if you can understand this, then you'll get a lot farther than trying to just be the main show of the game. So I have one last question for you, Matt, today. If you had to leave a group of athletes with one piece of knowledge that you have, what would that be? Hmm.

It's a really good question. I think it'd be 3 words, right? And again, coming from this place of mental performance, developing the mindset of an elite-level athlete would be take the stairs. Like, have an approach to life where you're always taking the stairs. And here's what I mean by that. Think about it, you've probably been there. You, you know, long day of travel, whatever, you're gonna plane, you're in a car for a long time. All of a sudden you get to the hotel and you're on the 3rd floor, 4th floor, something like that. And I would know in that moment, all I want to do is get my bags and get on the elevator and just like, oh, just like relax. The last thing I want to do is take the stairs to get to my hotel room. But that's the mindset of elite level players is they're always choosing things, choosing to do things that are more difficult for them in the moment because they'll be better long long term. You know, like, in that moment, I don't want to take the stairs, I want to get in the elevator. But if I do take the stairs, man, I'm getting a little more— man, if I was sitting on a plane or in a car all day, my legs are getting to move, my blood's going to flow, it's going to keep me healthier, it's going to keep me moving better. Again, even a little thing like that. Um, because it's also like, again, the mindset I've learned from so many great, great athletes that I've been around, learned from, been able to coach up, is like this idea that you can't make life too difficult for me. You know, we're on the 5th floor, bet I'm gonna take the stairs. You know, referee makes a bad call, bet I'm just gonna keep playing wherever I go through. Because like great, great players take pride in doing difficult things extremely well. But if they're not doing those difficult things on a daily basis, how can we ever expect to do them in the game or in the big moment when everything's on the line? Um, and so yeah, I would say take the stairs. Find things that are comfortable to do every day. Maybe it's a cold shower in the morning. Maybe it's not going to McDonald's, but going home and getting the food that mom has ready for you that's going to serve your body better. Maybe it's seeing if you can decrease your social media time and increase your time that you're reading great books that are gonna make you a better player, or spending more time in the gym, whether it's on your, your game or on your body. But I would say take the stairs, find things that that nobody else enjoys doing and do them so, so well, because that's what's going to prepare you for the biggest moments of your career. And honestly, the biggest moments of your life.

I think that I feel like that was a full circle moment for us in this, this podcast. That's the main, main takeaway I have is I love that take the stairs, do something now that you might not want to do so that it serves you and that future self better in the future. Matt, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for the knowledge that you've provided to me and to all of these listeners. Um, it was, it was great. It was so fun being here learning from you today.

Absolutely. Kelsey, thanks so much. I, I love this, love this opportunity. Um, I feel privileged to be a part of your, your Next Level, Next Level Athletes program and this podcast. Um, and yeah, I would just love to, uh, yeah, stay in touch. Anybody that's watching or listening, still as well, feel free to reach out. Um, let me know what I can do to help you out, to serve you on your journey, uh, becoming the, the player that you want to be.