Old GTM Engineers vs New GTM Engineers | What Changed?

This might be a little edgy to say, but I have a lot of conversations, I had a lot of conversations with investors, right? And this is what's happening. Departments are disconnected. The owner is not really saying the truth because he wants to look like everything is okay. So investors are not getting the real data. Managers are not reporting what's really happening. Nobody knows how that's attached to revenue.

All right, you guys, we are back with another GTM engineering roadmap episode. I I got my man Dave straight out of Columbia here. I've actually, I met Dave just about a week ago. We got on a call and the level of insights he has just around AI, you know, future predictions of AI systems, operations, like everything was really inspiring to see and I loved how he was able to break it down. So for this interview that I have set up today, I wanted to bring Dave on here to just really just open up his mind and let you guys decide. All right, so I'm going to pass it over to Dave right now. Listen, Dave, if you can just tell me like, who are you? Where do you work, how did you get here? Give us a backstory.

All right, so my name is Dave Mandurah. I am currently working at Cloud Test. We are a multi vendor marketplace. We help buyers, sellers, primarily software companies, service companies and we're constantly getting a lot of people hired. One of the main things that people are looking and approaching for is GTM engineers. So that adds up to part of things that you talk about. Carrie, just to give you some background, I've been in multiple roles. When I started this, I actually was raised in New Jersey, New Clifton Patterson around there to be exact. But when I came here to Medellin, there wasn't too much opportunities. There was just the typical call center. So I decided to join there, start doing customer support, helping people in the floor. That's how they would usually call it when you're like supporting the whole team. There was over 350 people in the, in, in, in the call working space. So what I would do is become a support person, right? Support people when it comes to tickets, but also build everybody around me because I was responsible to making sure that everybody in the floor will get support. But along that I was also building up to be like a qa, making sure that people were capable to earn their bonuses. So from there that's when I started growing into this leadership role. And then that's when I met Cloud Task and that's when it kind of grew my inspir collaboration and sells. I was I was always the kind of person that I like to connect people, build things, and then potentially sell them solving in a specific business challenge. So Cloud Test, at that point was the only company that kind of gave me that confidence. So I applied to Clouds. As I went to multiple sales roles, I grew to be more focused, in demand. Now, now that I have all this relationship with the people that are in the marketplace, I'm getting access to a lot of talent, I'm getting access to a lot of tools, and here we are, man. Like, it's funny to see how the transition happened over time. Where before it was just data, now it's context, and now it's context, data and tools. So I'm very open to see what we got here in this conversation.

Awesome. And if you could break. If you could break down, what is cloud tax? What is it that you guys do there?

Yeah. So most of our buyers. I'll start from who are our buyers? Because that defines why we exist. Our buyers are founders, CEOs, and oftentimes chief rev ops officers that are looking to make three decisions in one place. They're looking to hire remote talent. They're looking to shop for an agency, a specialized agency, whether it's website development, SEO, or they're looking for software tools. Right. So what I often get is buyers that, hey, I want to add people to my team, whether it's an sdr, customer support, but I also want a specialized agency to work on my SEO. Like one of our biggest clients, right. They took on more than three different tools. They took on an agency and over 25 hires. So that goes to show you that founders don't want things to be filtered through their recruiting team. They want to make the decisions, but they want to do it in one place. So that's where cloud test kind of serves and provide that support.

I like that. I really do. Yeah. On the cloud task platform, I definitely like it. I like that you guys have real opportunities there. And I really enjoy the fact that you can actually reach out to someone saying, hey, I'm actually interested in this job posting. And so, you know, that's just on the candidate side. So I can only imagine what it's like being on the buyer side, where if they see something that's interesting, like the level of support that you guys are just able to give, it's definitely something that the marketplace is missing. So shout out to Cloudtas, like, I'm a fan. I'm 100% a fan.

I appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that has Helped us a ton is we actually listen to our customers. So we, we would often get a lot of feedback. Hey, we want to see the kind of talent that is getting hired. We want to see the kind of candidates that are available. We want to see what opportunities other companies are posting for, because it might put me in a situation where I reevaluate what I have and see if maybe I can open up a position in case that department is kind of having some friction. So we turn that into a content factory, where that's something that is published across 12 different profiles on LinkedIn every day. Available candidates, hired candidates, job opportunities. And also we create content with other software and service companies. So that way we get to support, bring in leads, but also always showcasing talent because the same talent becomes the best promoters. And those companies that get hired, I mean, those candidates that get hired by these companies, they end up going into those companies with software experience. So the churn rate is less. They're happy. They see, they realize that, like, for example, when somebody goes into technology like Clay, they're very scared to go on their own. So getting that confidence that you have, somebody that has the context of how to use that tool, you know, 30 days can go back very quick. And if you're just burning our credits, that's gone in three days. So we want to make sure that there's a candidate that actually understands the world, the company's needs. That's why we focus a lot on the business challenges, so that you actually have less buyer remorse. Because 19 different tools, 19,000 different tools came in the market. Everybody's loss, right? The best, the people that are getting all the cells are people that have the highest sales motion, but it's not the ones that are keeping the clients. So that's why we want to position ourselves as an est strategic partner, where we actually help you evaluate your pain points and then make decisions off of that instead of just like, hey, those features sold me. This is AI power, which is a new buzzword, right? And then next thing you know, your team is hurt. The. The business challenges they express, they're not even getting any attention. So that's where we kind of want to come in and support.

Okay, all right. Honestly, I like that a lot. And that's. I feel like that's what's needed in this current marketplace because I think there is a lot of confusion, a lot of noise. And on top of it, I feel like everyone these days, they're pushing a product or service. But like, what happened to customer success? It's like, it's gone now. I feel like it's more of like a fancy title rather than an actual mission. And that's why I really like Cloud Task and you specifically, because you're my main point of contact. Regardless, it's just like, I feel heard when I need something. So it just goes to show I'm like, you know what, I would love to do more business with Cloud Task, with Dave, etc. So, yeah, but we're not going to go on about Cloud Tasks because there's so much knowledge inside your mind and we're about to give the people what they want. So my first question is going to be this, and this is a pressure test right here.

Yeah, go for it, Go for it. If I can't answer it, I will definitely say something. Got you.

I got you. So, GTM Engineering, biggest thing out right now.

Yeah.

What are the top five tools you recommend for a GTM engineer to know?

All right, so first one, I would say Octave. You want the context. So without the context, nothing makes sense. So you can have all the data, you can, you can feel so confident they have volume, but if you don't have the context, you're not going to match that client's world and there's a huge disconnect. Right. Second one, I have to give it to my man Brian from puzzle app IO. So mapping out all the frameworks, mapping out where each department sits, what are the tools involved, what are the types of steps involved, whether it's executed by a human and automation, an agent. So redefining everything before even purchasing it is a good way to make decisions because if you have it mapped out, you can go shopping and know exactly what you're going for. Right, because you know how many times you're going to use it, how much does it cost, why does it factors in into our current strategy? So I'll go for Octave for the context, I'll go with Puzzle for the framework. When it comes to, when it comes to LinkedIn outreach, I have to give it to Aim Fox. I have to give it to AIM Fox. I have tried so many tools, I'm not going to mention the specifics, but I've been restricted from LinkedIn. Right. We all have suffered from that at one given point, but aimfox is just a different approach. It feels human. Right? Obviously we don't do this outreach to not feel human. We just want to be able to help a lot of people that are dealing with the same pain. So that's the purpose of outreach in the first place. I don't just want to just hey, I exist just because. No, I know people in your space are dealing with this issue and I can solve it. That's the reason we do outreach at the, at the end. So just to be super clear, right? And I feel like aimfox is the right place. They also have this thing that's called spintext where you can change variations of the copies. So obviously LinkedIn is gonna see that as you're not just spamming, you're actually. It's the same message but it looks a little different every time.

Personalized in their eyes.

Yeah, it looks isn't. Yeah, you could call it personalized but it's more like variation. So like instead of hey, hello. Instead of. So you could kind of like frame it in three different variation points. Right. So we have Octave, we have Puzzle, we have aim, Fox. The fourth one, I'm going to give it to Master Inbox. So a lot of people that are using instantly, a lot of people that are using all these different tools, they're missing on replies and those replies are costing them a lot of money. So I suggest having a tool like them, especially not only because it's a good tool, but I always look for who's behind those tools. So I see how these people think and I know they're pain driven. They're not just trying to just geek out on features, they actually solve the problems and that's why they're getting so much clients so quick. And then the last one, I'm going to give it to Ample Market. Ample Market has been my strongest tool when it comes to LinkedIn outreach and also email outreach if you want to combine both of them. I tend to have more success when I do my outreach just off LinkedIn because of my profile. It looks like a landing page, it generates a lot of inbound but if you're trying to do is cold email and also leverage signals. So for example, if your company is being mentioned on Slack Groups, if your company is being mentioned on post on LinkedIn news or you want, let's say for example you get a signal from HubSpot where one of your deal lost, let's say it past three months, it actually comes back as a signal and say hey, this is how you should talk to them after three months, this is how you should talk to them after six months, this is how you should talk to them after nine months. So for me, reviving those deals that I thought they were lost with a very relevant outreach that Ample Market created using AI is pretty sick because sometimes we're like, hey, they're in deal laws, might as well not even touch them. Right. They might be a little pushy. But if you use AI correctly, if you grab all the context of why you probably lost that deal in the past, today you're going to go back with more context than ever before. Right. Because before just circling back, hey, want to see still in your radar. Those days are gone. Right. So what I like about Ample Market is the way it picks up the signal, the way it listens to the value proposition, what your company does, what you do, your space, and the way that I try to formulate that sequence that only that person understands and they know you already. It's a good way to revive those opportunities. I'll say those five, I'll say it again. Puzzle. No, Octave Puzzle App, Infox Master Inbox, and Apple Market.

Awesome. Yeah, definitely. When I post this on LinkedIn, they're going to be getting a shout out when I post the preview. So yeah, I'm a fan of Puzzle. Appreciate you for putting me on a puzzle. Octave. Still working my way around it. And then aim, Fox, Master Inbox, Ample Market. Haven't used yet, but Ample Market, they're making all this noise on LinkedIn because they got taken off of LinkedIn. I think they're the best promotion ever right now. LinkedIn just helped them and they don't even realize it, you know, because now everyone's like, all right, well what's Ample Market and why is everyone crazy?

And then they come to us and ask us like, hey, why, why did this tool get taken away? And they're like, hey, look, look how much I'm getting off of it. And then like the conversation, they just totally ignore what just happened. And they're like getting so much value from the tool. So I see what you're saying.

Exactly, exactly. Now they're like the, they're the modern day Wolf of Wall Street, I guess, like as a modern day tech.

Yeah.

So we just talked about all of these softwares and you know, of course there's so many more out there that are great.

So many.

I have one, maybe one little curveball question. Yeah, we're going to go into outreach because I want people to understand about how to really put this together. Especially those trying to get into a GTM engineer role or those who are. There's a lot of people right now who are going into GTM engineer roles and they are like, hey, I was just put here, I don't even know what I'm doing.

Uh huh.

So we're definitely.

So let me, let me give you a take there because what I'm seeing companies is this. And they're, they're getting it in a whole different way. Companies are now approaching. It's like, wait, why would I have somebody that do call calling if our data is not taken care of? And now it's just magic. It's like, we should get a go to market engineer to take care of a whole business and now let's have an SDR in. But a lot of companies are just like, no, let's turn our SDR a GTM engineer. And now this person forgets how to do calls. This person is trying to figure out how to connect APIs. This person is burning credits trying to figure out how to work this thing. And then he's getting pressure like, hey, why are you spending the credits when we just haven't even gotten started? We don't even have leads. So it's like the learning curve and the way the companies are approaching it, it might not be the best way. Right? So it's not, It's. That's what I'm saying.

Message me on LinkedIn last week. And he said, hey, just got a promotion. Saw your post about building a AI in N8N. He was like, would love to hop on a call to learn how to build automations. I was like, how did you get promoted to building on an automation specialist but you don't know how to build one? I didn't ask personally because I wouldn't want to insult the guy, but this is what's happening. I think companies are like, hey, this GTM engineer thing, we don't know what it is. Put someone in there that may know sales or maybe they made like a workflow in HubSpot and let's just call them a GTM engineer rather than investing in the people. Because there are people in this world, people like you, people like me, who've been building automation, not even building automation, who have actually been mastering the workflow of sales. The automation is just simplifying our workflow. But we understand the frameworks and I think that's what companies need to look for. Hey, who understands the frameworks because they can easily learn the automation. But if you don't know the frameworks, what are you going to automate?

Yeah, that's, that's. I saw a picture this day where it was like a guy in a plane while reading how to fly and it feels like that, right? It's like, oh shit. It literally feels like. But you mentioned a good Point. I like the way you approach this because another person would just take on that client and not even question it. You're actually seeing, like, where's this? What's the root cause of this? You know, let's analyze that behavior and actually turn into something where I could build more value around it. And I feel like that's the way you kind of approach all the situations. But, yeah, that's something that we're also seeing. And it happened when the BDRs and SDR role kind of came in, where it's like, hey, the SDR can now also become an admin, right? And then do all this administrative task and now they're not calling. And then you're trying to put all this pressure on the person for not calling and not hitting quota when they're so busy organizing data on HubSpot and they don't. And most of the time they don't even know what they're really organizing. They're just filling up information. And on top of that, that data is inaccurate. So you're feeding a system a whole bunch of outdated data, taking the person from that role. And now with this new transition, all these tools, they're overwhelmed. Like, they don't really know what the hell is going on. Like, most of them, they'd rather be an admin than having to deal with all these connections they have to build now just to get the best of the best. Right? So, yeah, yeah, it's a lot, A lot of pain points.

There it is. And a lot of people, you know, it's. I feel like LinkedIn, which is why I highly advise, like, management to stay off of LinkedIn if possible because of the FOMO that occurs. And it really does impact your decision making. Because, like, for example, there's companies right now that don't need GTM engineers. They follow the GTM roadmap. Like, hey, how are we even. Like, what's next to even let people know about our product? We just received 5, 10 millimeter and we don't even know, like, really anything. We're just like hiring SDRs. And what's the new saying that you see in job descriptions? We want someone's whatever be the flat. The. The founding sdr. Yeah, it's code word for no processes and systems to accurately convert leads into potential buyers or appointments.

That's a fact.

So it's, it's a lot. But now in the marketplace right now, Clay is dominating. I've been working with it. I'm going to be getting certified soon. Really excited about that. I'M building a crazy clay automation, as we know.

Actually, today they released their certifications. You get to decide if you want to do it for outbound inbound. So check it out. Yeah, I saw it this morning. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Awesome.

For every single one. I'm not even gonna. It's simple. Like, it really is simple. I could. I get. There's a lot. There's N8N is a lot more complicated than clay. Clay is just a lot of moving pieces and they just have like a lot of words. But it's literally zapier in reality. Zapier for beat it for a B2B for BB outbound prospecting. But my question to you, Clay or.

Data Bar, I would go with. I mean, oh, wow. I would say. All right, I'll be very straightforward with you. Right. If you're looking for a community support, Clay is going to dominate. Not just data, any software. They have the strongest community I have ever witnessed in my life. So I'll give it to clay. When it comes to Data Bar, there's certain things that you didn't know you can automate. And it's like, I don't know, it gives me. It builds a lot of curiosity. When I see Data Bar and the stuff that you could do with it, the scraping, extending, which I found very powerful. And compared to the one from clay. The only things that I heard in terms of pain points with clay is the limitations on the rows or the. The fact that is $800 if you want to do CRM integration with data Bar. The difference is you can do it at 129 and there's no limitations on the rows. But I'll be honest, I don't have a preference. I like both of them. I respect both of the founders. I learn a lot from them. The communities that they have built are something to admire. The amount of talent they're building, the amount of lives they're changing is insane. Right. And one of the things that I liked about clay, which I never saw in my life, is they actually have clay competitions. Like, if it was actually like a gaming competition, those guys are in front of the audience building tables. Like me as a. As a heavy gamer and as a streamer who I used to be seeing that it just gave gamifies the way I see clay now because it's like these guys are competing to build the best tables and this table leads to revenue is something that I've never thought I'll witness. Right. So just because of that, clay will have a very strong point. But I like both of them. Right. But if I were to choose clay for community data bar, if you want to get extra curious, and I feel like for us, for us, I'll consider myself a GTM engineering just because you gave me the confidence to say that. But I would say in this space is not about having a preference. It's whatever you can do with one tool, do it with the other, and then build around that. Because, yeah, there's situations where you could benefit so much from just leveraging both. Right. And you don't want to miss out because that can lead to another upsell, that can lead to another opportunity. Right. Another channel that you can explore, another piece of data, another provider. So I'll go with that, man.

Listen, you're dropping gems right now. We haven't even, like, gotten into anything. I don't even know if this was going to make it to YouTube. This might be like a lead magnet. Like, it put a paper behind this type of stuff, so keep it going. So breaking down and getting into outreach. And now when I say that, right, currently, everyone is so focused on clay personalization instantly. And then whatever BS LinkedIn message, they got the old, oh, saw you graduated from, you know, Devry University. It's like, what is your take on outreach currently? And what differentiates. Differentiates your outreach versus the standard sdr.

Oh, you're not ready for this. All right, cool. So I have this thing that Amir, our cloud test CEO, has always reached, which is the Manjura Method. Mandurah for my last name. And this involves the following. Okay, involves. I like to go and look for all the mistakes I can possibly find. Broken links. I go for grammar. I find grammar mistakes where people. I'll go into 10 pages in blogs and then go find a mistake like things that their team probably forgot they did. Right. So that's one of my main approaches. The second one is I like to support formats that a lot of people don't get support from. For example, podcasts. One of the approaches that a lot of people hate on LinkedIn is the InMails. They feel that an InMail, it feels like a rock being tossed in your window with a little message. They don't like it. But the only way I was capable to go around it is supporting them on a podcast. So if I tell them, hey, I'd like your take on minute 43 where you said this, I actually agree with you. Or sometimes I want to challenge. Right. That's one of the approach that has helped a ton. The other one is if you have Chad GPT. And if you have a $20 license, why don't you just grab every single website from the person you're trying to target, understand everything that they do, grab their profile, download it as a PDF, and then feed it to this GPT. And then next thing you know, you know more about that person you're going after. You can use that to make content for them better than them, right? Because I often get that a lot. Hey, that post you did, you took words out of my mouth that I have never posted before. And then the other one I would say is engineer the webinars, engineer the roundtables, engineer this one on one conversations. So I build a GPT, for example, that what it does is that it scans the person I'm gonna have the conversation with, and then I'll get in that call with a lot of context. Or if I'm gonna do a roundtable, what I do is I tell this GPT to analyze each of these people that are gonna be on that roundtable so that I can build questions based on what each person will die to answer, but not directly to them or, or, or make sure it's a question that is also broad to open up a conversation, but it's not misaligned with the other people's background. So is engineering the space where you bring those people in so that there's a. There's an actual, there's an actual purpose. Because one of the things that I've seen in a lot of podcasts is like, people just get in there just to talk, but then no content comes out of it. Nobody learns anything, no connections happen after that. What we tend to do very well is every piece of content that we make with this companies or any podcast that we get involved, they get a lot of, a lot from it. And we have an engine where we can build the content and then also newsletters for us to publish it. So the main take I want you to get from this is that if you have an engine where you can turn anything into content, you're. You're a step ahead. Because sometimes it takes companies months, three months, six months to get that out. And if you can use that now and know that there's so many people that have those same pain points today, it's very easy to make a match. So that pain point that this person brought up in a podcast might not be a pain point in six months by the time you launch it. So it's like, have an engine that you can publish asap, because that can bring in clients you know, it's funny.

You bring that up, right? Because lately I've been posting a lot of videos about GTM Engineering on YouTube. I think B2B they're really lacking on like YouTube in general, but YouTube is your best SDR because their algorithm is interest based. Such as LinkedIn. LinkedIn's algorithm's interest based. That's why you now see, like you start talking about GTM engineering, whatever it may be. All your, your feed is now GTM, GTM, GTM, GTm. It's not that we are. It's not because all of our friends on connections on LinkedIn are becoming GTM engineers. It's that the algorithms on all social media platforms have changed from follower based and friend based to interest based. They took the algorithm. So what you're saying, and which is why I'm so in alignment with it and I'm going to bring it back to what I was getting into. I've been posting a lot of content on GTM engineering that now because GTM engineering is such low hanging fruit as a keyword on YouTube, my first three videos are now on page one of YouTube.

Nice.

Which is why I'm doing so much more content. And as you said, a lot of these B2B companies, nothing comes out of the content. It's a, it's usually like an ego stroke or something. And I'm like, you shouldn't use it as that. Because a lot of the times these guys are dropping so much game, they don't even realize their ideal client was waiting for that. That's all they needed to see that one thing. And that would have converted them. And then on top of it, the content lives forever. You have the YouTube algorithm pushing it and then on top of it. I call them breakout videos. Now when your SDRs are doing outreach, they could say, hey, instead of doing the usual case study PDF bs. Just so you know, we just released X video about this. I think it's going to really help you with what it is. You're 100% now the person or the company is building authority without trying to force feed it.

Yeah. But you know, it's something else I'm also seeing is actually an ego thing. So you have two sides of this. In B2B, there's people that love building in public, like Adam Robinson, and there's other people that feel that if they make content, they're not in their lane. So they're actually looking like a CEO that has nothing else to do. And that's wrong because the amount of inbound that building in public generates is insane. Is insane. Like, ever since I started posting daily on my LinkedIn, the amount of inbound that I get is something that I couldn't even achieve before calling every day for a month, you know, and. And that's what I always tell people is you can be a CEO and take one time, just take one, take a week, and kind of express the loss. People care more about the loss because they. And if you look at it like I speak to a lot of founders and I speak to a lot of investors, and the first thing they tell me is like, hey, we always keep an eye on those that know how to fail. And it's like, everybody wants to show this perfect world, but the people that actually has the eyes on them and actually has the money are seeing how they're come up from those mistakes. That's why Adam is so strong on building in public. And part of my methodology is actually that just show what it really is, you know, like, why. Why do I have to put all this makeup just to turn you into a buyer when I could tell you straight up how it is and then you trust me and then we grow together. It's so easy just to do that. Then trying to fake something you're not. It's like going on a date and then pretending you just wealthy guy and do all this stuff. But then when it gets to real business, she's gonna be like, nah, this doesn't add up, you know, And I don't, I don't want to be in that situation. You know, I want to be very straightforward because even on the round table I had today, you make, you make more clients saying no because you care for their business. And it's like there's a balance. So my main takeaway is building in public does work, and I have proven that it works. But you have to be on top of your audience. It's not just about post and post and let AI do some nice frameworks and copy engage, listen to them. They might drop a comment about one topic that can be an article. And I. You come off as I feel heard, you know, and that, that's, that's one thing I really want to angle because it's a lot of an ego thing. There's a lot of founders that just feel like now if I post, the competition is going to see that I'm. I'm not putting attention to the rest of the things. And then they see it as a disadvantage when it's actually an advantage you're bringing. Not only High executives to make purchase decisions, but also candidates that admire them. So you're getting both sides of it. So ways to approach it. Right?

That building in public thing, I don't think we, we've had that conversation. But I always say I feel like I was the Pioneer on LinkedIn and building in public because in 2021 I decided to open a cleaning business while I was in SDR and I said, I'm going to document my journey to a million dollars. So I did it every day, like the good, the bad. I eventually got fired because, bro, I was just catching fire on LinkedIn. Everyone's like, yo, keep going, keep going. I ended up building a coaching program as well because people wanted to know. A lot of people were hitting me up, they're like, how do you be an SDR and have this remote cleaning business? But I was in public every day. And the thing about building in public, it's actually, if you look at it, it is a marketing, it's an email marketing sequence or a newsletter page they could just go down and follow. Now the craziest part about that, this building in public thing. I saw a video from Layla Hormozi and she was talking about boring businesses. That's how I got the idea to start the cleaning business. So when I made my first 15, I had my first $15,000 month in the cleaning business. I shouted out Layla Hormozi before she was who she is now, you know, before she got on like getting in content etc, she reposted me and said, this is what I'm talking about. That went viral. What happened to my LinkedIn? They all went back to my LinkedIn, my coaching program. The following month I sold a hundred thousand dollars worth of coaching in one month because of I built in public. Layla reposted it and said, and then I had so much social proof because for the last 90 days all I've been doing was posting the wins, the losses, the pictures of me bringing my son to cleanings, talking about how, hey, you know, in the beginning I couldn't afford to bring my son to daycare because I had to. I didn't have that income. The SDR income was only paying me a thousand dollars a week. And when you're a father, that's not enough. When you have daycare, apartment, bills, car, etc, it's not doing it. So the building in public method to this day is so great. The problem is what I'm seeing from when I did it and the way I see you do it, but in the way I See the people doing it incorrectly. Building in public must be also of value. Not, oh, look at me, I'm the main character.

Exactly. Always. I'll tell you what has made me avoid any type of friction in my space. Because I never have people coming at me, testing me or questioning is remaining unbiased. It has been the trick for the past nine years. When you're on bias, you don't take a side, right? When you're on bias, nobody thinks you have. You're mentioning something because you have a favorite. And that's why I try to always lean. And that's something that Amir taught me is like focus on the business challenge. Nobody cares about logos, Nobody. Eventually everybody's gonna build their own app. All this apps nobody cares about unless it's solving a business challenge. So in this era, let's take advantage of that, right? Because later on, like I said, everybody's going to build their own app. Nobody's going to buy anything from anybody else. Right. That's the prediction that I have. And most of the time I see it more, right. I'm seeing all these software companies getting washed by OpenAI because they start doing the features themselves. So I would say is it's a tough moment to be in the market, but it's the easiest way to prove a product right. Because it's like you can either get so distracted or you can end up building something you don't even know how you built it. And then you, you, you hit home run. Or sometimes you're just so disconnected and so distracted by shiny things that you end up building nothing. So it's like that's, that's what I.

Faced for around in the beginning of the year. There was so much coming out and I was just trying to do everything. I was like N8N what about make? Okay, well Zapier now has AI. Then I was like go high levels now allowing voice agents. Then like. But then we have clay over here. I realized I was in builder mode. But builder mode does not create businesses, it just creates. But there needs to be an outlet for your creation that translates into revenue. So you're absolutely right.

Because I'll be honest, I'll be honest with you. Sometimes this tools, I don't know if it's just me, but sometimes you get addicted to these tools. You, you actually like browsing through them. You actually, especially when it trans. It translates to money. You actually get emotionally attached to this tools. But sometimes it's like, hold on, this is not aligned to my objective for the month or for this quarter, you also gotta. I feel like it's also with friendships and, and all this stuff, like, you got to know when to attach, but also have that mindset where any moment you have to make that change, even if it hurts or it feels uncomfortable. Right? Like, for example, in my case, like I used to work for Apollo. I thought Apollo was the only thing that I can use to, to perform. And it got to the point where I'm like, it's like, it's like having a barber, right? I was like, nah, I only trust this barber. I can only perform my sequences. And it gets to the point where it start affecting your sequences. You're like that. When I do my C, it could be the same damn copy. And you feel like your sequences just feel better in this tool just because you're emotionally attached to it. And then when I went to ample market, for example, I'm not making a comparison, I'm not putting last competitors because I like both of them. But for example, where ample market, it's just like that transition was so smooth. And then with all the features it has, I'm like, oh, wow. It feels like I actually now have superpowers, but I feel that same confident that I felt with last software. But now I feel like the changes are happening so quick, where the interfaces look different, the same features have different wording or different language, even though they do the same thing. And it's just so hard to get distracted that I just wanted to point that out. Right?

It's a fact. You're absolutely right. Especially in the GTM engineering space right now. And I keep bringing it up because one, that's what this channel is about. And two, it's just such a hot topic. You know, people are getting paid six figures a year, multi six figures. And they're just confused because it's like every other day it's something new. There's a new chat GPT update, There's a new version of Lovable. There's a new clay killer, as they all say coming out. There's a new LinkedIn post about, oh, this is what we're using, how we scale to a million a month. What's that new company out there? Hyperbound, right? Hyperbound. And their scaling is crazy. Now they've taken. They're taking over. Now everyone thinks, oh, shoot, I need hyperbound. And I'm like, bro, you are more than fine with whatever auto AI or zoom to do whatever it is you need to do. And you could just feed it into chat, gp, feed the transcription into chatgpt So I think what you're saying right now, besides the emotional attachment analysis, paralysis is literally hindering. Great.

Yeah.

Right now.

Yes. Yes. I love the way you always transition that to a bigger root cause.

That's what's happening. This is what's happening. We are already 30 minutes in.

I. I'm not even worried about the time.

Yeah, man, it's. I think I was telling my girlfriend today, I was like, I have a call with Dave. And I was like, when me and Dave get going, I don't know how long the call is gonna be, but it's gonna be one of those, like, podcasts that 10 years from now, they're like, wow, why didn't I find this sooner?

But, oh, man, it's amazing.

Let's get more tactical now.

Right now. Let's go, let's go. Let's get it. Let's get dirty.

So we're gonna role play or a fake scenario? You're the leader of some software company. You want to hire a GTM engineer and you want to hire an sdr, right?

Yeah.

What are you looking for in a GTM engineer and an SDR to get the highest return on your investment?

That's a beautiful question. The first thing that I would do is obviously validate that these are tools they'd like to use. They build content because that's always the validation if they like to build. They're either a creator from Clay, So that shows a lot. I also ask them what I've done, especially for example in your case, is, hey, this is a business challenge that I have. So first, that way I could kind of understand how you will solve that in my space. Because if you can help me solve it, I'm pretty sure you can make this company successful. Right. Because you're in context of the business challenge for so on. A GTM engineer is if they're creators, if they're building in public, that does help a lot. Like the guy that I met at an event, the first Clay event, I told you about him, and the first thing that I saw is that he was building in public. And obviously when he went and showed that to the client, the client was like, yeah, this guy's so way ahead. Like, I feel like I could just put him in workflows that I didn't feel the confident with other guys. Right. So off the rip, he's getting return on investment. Right. When it comes to SDRs, I would say the SDRs that tend to be the very successful are people that turn objections into content. So that Generates inbound candidates that are also using the transcriptions to kind of learn not only from their managers, because their managers are only limited to what they know. But then Chad GPT can actually formulate a better response. I haven't had the best experiences with managers, so like, I try to stay away from them. That was one of the things that I was telling you earlier is I tend to be the person that always goes straight to the decision maker. I'm not telling here to go disrespect your manager. He doesn't know how to sell to the top. But in my case, I always try to keep the conversation directly with the, with the founder. But going back to the gtm, I would say is that is proving that they can build it. Mention a business challenge that you have as a company and see how they were kind of formulate the idea. And then for the SDRs, understand if they also use tools like Aurum, they use tools like salesfinity. Not only that, but understand what happens after that call is finished. You know, do you, do you leverage your LinkedIn to kind of finish off the cell? Are you building content around those objections? Right, because those, if you look at the best SDRs from gong and Deal, for example, they're building in public, they're creating content. Hey, I had this amount of calls where this issue happened. Let me turn that to content. And I do that too. And that brings inbound because I can always use that article and show it on a call if that objection comes in. And I was like, yeah, no, I actually deal with this objection often. I'll show you. I have an article for you. So when you come off like that, in those calls, buyers like that, they like you to be resourceful. They like you to build off those objections. Right? And then the other thing is having clarity on what they want. You know, a lot of GTM guys, like you said, they also come like, hey, I'm familiar with clay. But then when it comes to building, they just feel like they're good at following YouTube videos, but they're not good at just like, let me get my hands dirty. Let me just lock in and, and see how I can solve that business challenge. So you can kind of sense that that's a good thing about this role. It's like engineer is people that actually like this stuff. You know, like if you look at the engineers, there's only 0.23% of these people in the world. Like, you don't just end up there just like, just because like these people are actually inspired. So I feel a lot of that influence is also coming in the GCM engineers because they actually want to be a GTM engineer. I'm not saying that a lot of people that end up in roles like customer support, customer success, customer support, I mean, sdr, sorry, it's just because they ended up there. But this role does require a strong background, it does require leveraging tools. So it's not just something like, hey, I couldn't find a job anywhere else, let me do be an engineer. You, you. I don't think that's the best way or I haven't seen guys in that space approach it like that. They're like, you know what, I actually care more about the business and I feel like I got more tools to address it now. Let me kind of give more value than, than what I'm already giving them. Right? Because at the end of the day I, I know the struggle of an sdr, which is like trying to make, trying to take out gold from very bad data. And it's a struggle. And if you would have gave me clay five years ago and I knew I could have better data, holy shit. Like the amount of things that I could have done back then, the amount of deals I could have closed, I think I'll be in a whole different route. So what I would say is overall, in those two roles, as people that care about technology, care about the company, is able to analyze a business challenge and actually be creative off that business challenge. Those guys get hired within the same week.

I like that. Honestly, I think that was a very clear breakdown. You know, I hope a lot of founders are going to be listening to this. You know, I'm actually going to be cutting up this video once I transcribe it, etc, I'm going to be using it as a lead magnet as well. So your prescriptions, it's going to be really like I'm sending it to. I'm setting up an automation right now in clay where based on their title, if it's founder, this, that or the other, it's automatically going to send them like, hey, this is a X, hey, blah blah, blah. I know you're a founder. This is a pain point a lot of founders have. I've actually created a quick two minute YouTube video, two minute clip for you to watch that solves that problem.

Love it.

So it's going to push them to, oh, I want to know more. But it's funny like, see that's me being able to build out that automation through clay, but also understanding the frameworks of an sdr, you become unstoppable.

Yeah.

I think the GTM engineer role, I wholeheartedly believe you have to be a salesperson. You have to be a creative and a salesperson because it goes beyond just scripts, right?

Yeah. 100% you.

The level of brain power that this thing takes is insane. Even with clay, right?

Yeah.

It's easy to build out. Oh yeah. You understand how to work around with these tools. But at the end of the day, you're so data focused that you have to always be able to have solutions. Because it's like in the beginning, phase one is having a general solution, phase two is specific pain point solutions. And to be able to build around that, it takes a level of knowledge, certainty and experience to say, hey, I'm going to have to take what's in here, man. Build out the automation. So someone who doesn't understand automations knows how to use it and maximize it. That's not something you could just take somebody who's SDR or AE in your company and be like, hey, you're ATM engineer now.

Yeah.

This stuff goes deep. So that brings me my next question.

Very deep. Very. Yeah, very deep.

You're a new founder. All right. You have. Yeah, yeah. If you have a million dollars that you can use, you got a million dollars in funding. What are the. Not even a million. You got a quarter million you can use for everything.

Yeah.

Who are the first two hires? No, who are the first three hires you're gonna make in order.

In order.

In order for the first being the most important, third being not the least, but the last hire.

I'll be very honest with you. I would say a GTM engineer that's going to help them get their data check the. How we're going to speak to these people. Right. And then get an SDR. It's just that SDRs haven't been the best to do market. Like to do market validation campaigns. Those tend to be more agencies. But I would say at a low risk you can decide to go with an agency. Right. But you'll get an scr. Right. But obviously understanding the data, the pitfalls and make sure that this SDR actually has the capability to document. But also having an engineer that builds out a system that has a lot of feedback, like a feedback loop, so everything that happens on the SCR frontline can actually get reported back and actually the GTM guy can actually do something about it. Right. And then from there hire somebody that can do ads and distribute that budget across, I would say LinkedIn and Meta. So that also involves YouTube. I'm seeing a lot of companies also do Reddit, especially during SaaS. So I would say distributing that budget across multiple channels will be the best way to go, but always bringing that information back because I feel like a lot of companies, what they do is they burn money trying to make a quick sell, but they're not getting that data back in the, back to the GTM guys to kind of like sharpen what's the outreach, the target, how does the market perceive us? So I would say those three guys, somebody in sales, a GTM guy that can manage data and somebody that can guarantee a good cost per click, but also bring it back to the team so that, that can tighten up the, the GTM kind of approach. Right. That's what I would say. Right.

And what would you value on an annual salary for each role?

Well, I mean, I'll go based on what I've seen in Cloud says. Right. Because obviously, what if it's a company that's hiring in the U.S. the prices differentiate a lot. But for example, if you're looking for an SCR here in Latam, I seen a very strong talent pool at 2,500amonth to 4,000 for an SDR if it's in US obviously 4,000 and up. I see Canada is getting hired up to 8K 9K for an STR robot. They're, they're experts in enterprise. They already have like a, a quota attainment. Right. So there's a track record for a GTM guy. I've seen companies hired up to. It depends. It depends. Usually when it's just a beginner, it goes from a thousand five hundred. But I've seen guys also getting hires up to five thousand. It all depends on the amount of data that they, they have to manage, how many clients they manage. And then for somebody that does ads, it depends because it could be a, it could be whether it's split among rev share or sometimes they're willing to pay an agency to do the ad so they can be on a safe side. Right. I feel like a lot of companies are very afraid to just go for one person that knows a lot about ads. They rather have like a managed team that can actually give strong reporting, good information for you to make decisions. But I would say I've seen guys that do good at ads from 1500 to 2,500. And then if you're trying to scale up, there's no limits. Like for example, we have a company in the marketplace that's called Ads Pro. You're Actually going to meet them on the event tomorrow. These guys are actually helping Companies scale from 1 million ads a month. So it's just a different monster. Right. And it all depends how much, how far you want to go. But with that budget that I'm just saying is constantly testing, because you don't want to just burn out that budget, but focus a lot of your attention on the market research. Make sure that the GTM guy is validating that. Make sure that you have everything in place so that when the SCR comes, all he has to focus is having those valuable conversations. And then I would say that's kind of the structure that I would take if I was also that founder.

But yeah, all right, I like your approach. I, you know, I. Mine would only be a little bit different from.

Right, okay.

I would do GTM engineer. But like a serious GT engine engineer. They have to understand copywriting, messaging, all of that stuff, you know. And then of course, they'll build out the outbound system so we can validate our messaging. Then from there, I would hire a Facebook ads team. I wouldn't even go to Google because Facebook ads, you'll be. You can test as much as you want for not a cheap amount, but it's cheaper than what you would pay on Google, you know, because Facebook ads. And I was like, oh, my ideal buyer isn't on Facebook ads. I'm inside of a group. Shout out to my guy. Jeremy Haynes, best Facebook marketer in the world. Tai Lopez says that Ty Lopez thinks he's the best. Ty thinks Ty's the best. But he's like, after me, it's Jeremy Haynes. He's. He's amazing, right? But he has clients because he also has a coaching program. So he does 15k per month plus rev share.15 of rev share for his advertising clients. But then he has coaching students. His in his inner circle is 5k per month at this moment. And he made. He was telling us because he's doing a training right now. He says he has a guy who runs Facebook ads, two generations private investors. Like, he's just raising money and he's talking about, you know, people in networks of 50 million to $100 million. He's doing it through Facebook ads because. And I say all that to say this when you speak about market validation, I think the place I can validate any market or any market research is going to be Facebook ads.

You're right. I heard this multiple times. Yeah, it's just.

It's just so much quicker because at the end of the day, we all go on Facebook and remember what I said at the beginning of the podcast, right? Social media is now interest based. Even so ads.

Interest media.

Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

So that's what we should call it.

If we really, at this point we should. And it's funny because now I'm like, now I'm thinking, I think Tick Tock took their idea from meta from meta ads. Why? Because meta ads always showed ads based on interest. TikTok probably said, hey, what if you could just see the content you want and that you're interested in without having to spend money on ads. Algorithm change. But I don't want to get too much off topic because I can go into ads forever. But yeah, I would just go GTM engineer, spend all my money on ads. Because if I was to pay, let's just say we're gonna stick to American US pricing. I was pay 5k a month, 4k a month for SDR. I can validate faster spending 4k on Facebook ads. And then what I would do once I validated my messaging, my landing pages, my follow up, etc, now I'm going to Cloud task saying hey, let me get one of those Latin American specials real quick. And then I'm gonna go hire somebody in Argentina, et cetera, where I can build them up to be a great sdr. Because no SDR in my opinion should be the one doing the market research, providing feedback 100% to ensure scalability. The correct messaging is happening. But if you wanna set an SDR up for success, give them all of the tools, give them all of the opportunities and let them begin filtering correctly and then they can begin building. Why have them start from step zero when if you just actually save money up front, invest a little bit more time, you, you're going to get a bigger ROI on your SDR. The reason why SDRs in my opinion are failing is because they're setting up. They're setting SDRs up for failure. They're saying we need someone who could keep their head down and just cold call out the gate. You're setting up an SDR for failure.

Why?

Because you're not teaching them to use their mind. You're not teaching them to be strategical, you're teaching them to be a grunt worker. You might as well put, it's being an SDR is the equivalent of being a construction worker. Shout out to the construction workers. But it's just brute force.

Yeah, this.

But imagine if we can transition into, hey, we've built our GTM team, we know the messaging that works. You're the person. You're not an sdr. We don't need you to really book appointments. You're our feedback loop.

Yeah.

You're our boots on the ground and telling us what's actually working and then just bring it back to the team and we're going to send you back out there.

Yeah, yeah. No, but this goes back to what you were saying earlier, is like, not a lot of companies need a GTM guy at first because I also had the experience. I made STRs that are very good and they're selling without even having a product fully developed. And I'll consider myself one of them. When we did the transition to a marketplace, I was trying to sell a marketplace that wasn't even built yet, but I was capable to get through those conversations. That's why I was trying to be very tactical when I said valuable conversations. Because sometimes they're not sold on the product, but they like the conversation. They like to keep the conversation closed. They even become a promoter, and next thing you know, you have a wish list of clients that are willing to buy this once it's out. So I see both of the side of the coins, but I do appreciate both perspectives. But it's been. Sometimes you get surprised. There's some SCRs that, even if they're very traditional, they know how to hit the phones and they know how to make that one call that will open up budget for every other initiative. So that also comes into the fondled kind of approach, because I've seen, like, for example, Amir. Amir is the kind of person that he'll get on calls and he'll close in those calls. Next thing you know, he can sell something that hasn't been built yet. A month, we release it, the client is happy. So, I mean, I'm not. There's not a lot of them, but I had the privilege.

Amir. You know what I like about Amir, right? He's smart. He's very smart. He is. He understood that he just needs to make himself an authority figure. And it's not by banging his chest. Oh, look what I know.

Yeah.

Drop a comment here, a few videos there, some content there, and next thing you know, it's like, bro, why do I keep seeing you on every single post under my this. I know, I know. How do you know him? I saw you commenting there. And it just goes down to the fact that it's just the way we sell is so different. And I really believe that it's. It's not that the SDR isn't of value. They are. The problem is I feel like not every business, but corporations in general, they just refuse to understand. It's like there's one thing AI can't change. It cannot change buyer behavior. No. Like in trust. So if we break it down to the simplest form possible, if that is the formula that makes a sale, why wouldn't we utilize platforms more often that can create the environment of know, like and trust without giving. Getting people on a call, which then allows our potential buyers to have the freedom to decide if they want to get on a call with us. Now we're shortening sales cycles. The goal should be to shorten sales cycles first. Then we can plug the SDR in there because now we're preparing the s. The SDR who's really good at cold calling. Imagine he has. He's one. He has his headset on. He has AI in the background transcribing the calls, listening to the rebuttals. He's on his phone like this. All right, all right, great. Oh, budget's the issue. I actually, I just sent you over a link discussing our payment plans. It's a quick 60 second video from the founder. He talks about payment plans. Oh, you're currently using clay and you want to know what the difference is between data bar. Listen, this is a cold call. I know you don't have much time. I just sent you a link over. It's a quick 60 second video breaking down the differences and the cost savings as well. We're not trying to take away the SDR job, but if we can just follow a framework of arming our SDRs now, we're not going to have that conversation where only 10 of SDRs are good. It's not fair to the SDRs.

Besides not.

We're not giving them what they need to sell in this current market.

No. And the worst thing is that those habits go for another company and the stories continues. Continue. Those bad habits never get tackled. Yeah. And a lot of a portion of it has to do a lot with leadership. Like, I've seen good and bad leadership and man, I've seen guys that were limited of tools, they can crush it. But I've seen guys that have bad leadership. They have the budget, they have everything. They just, it's. The ideas don't flow, you know?

So, yeah, man, yeah, that's. That's gonna be definitely a controversial topic right there. You know, they're gonna love us for that one on LinkedIn. But it's true. It's like, listen, at the end of the day. If you, if you're hiring somebody, they need to be their priority. Has to be the business.

Yeah.

Because if it's not. Because if we. Let's take it to a personal level. A lot of management are just hurting a lot of individuals who just want to learn.

Yeah. You know, you know something. And this might be a little edgy to say, but I have a lot of conversation. I had a lot of conversations with investors. Right. And this is what's happening. Departments are disconnected. The owner is not really saying the truth because he wants to look like everything is okay. So investors are not getting the real data. Managers are not reporting what's really happening because nobody knows how that's attached to revenue. Everybody's doing their own thing. Everybody's working off their own sheets. Nothing is connected. Marketing is selling the product certain way. Sales is selling, selling in another way. The product team is building something they like, not something that the buyers want. So there's so much disconnection right now, and it's because of those behaviors. Like, like I told you, going back to this, like, I used to hate telling things to my managers. I will feel like everything will get filtered in a way and tone that I never set. So it just, it frames the situation differently. And this also applies itself when you make those calls or when you have this conversations on LinkedIn. Stop trying to think about you selling to that person. Most of the 90% of the time, those guys are influencers to that cell. So if you can tell them what you are, how you solve things, and they can take that to their teams, nothing is gonna happen. That's why they joke a lot about this is little image that's like, hey, I'm an str. Hey, me too. Let's waste some time together, you know? You ever seen that? Yeah. Yeah. So it happens often because I've been in those calls where it's like, look, nothing is gonna happen. We just. I don't mind having extra five minutes for us to talk bent if you want. Right. But then those conversations are leading to nothing because that person can't go back to their teams and tell the CEO, hey, this is the actual issue. That's what we're focusing a lot on. If you have software powered candidates or candidates that understand the software you use on a daily basis, that right there makes candidates go to those teams that actually say, you know, I can actually best perform this using this tool. And now the founder is like, maybe we need to reevaluate our test set. Right. But if it's not like that. It's very hard to get that to the decision makers attention. Those guys are just, they see it as fluff. Is like, hey, no, no, go, go make your calls. You should be doing other things. I'm worrying about things that are not in your lane. And those conversations just become so disconnected that even that person gets fired for bringing something up that they didn't have to worry about.

I think that's why people are becoming entrepreneurs. It's because no one wants to be in a place where they feel like they can't speak freely. You know, I think my biggest mistake as a business owner, when I had my coaching program, so I. I had my business partner, she was giving me feedback and, you know, me being young and dumb, making a lot of money, thinking I'm on top of the world, I would literally tell us like, hey, you have no idea what you're talking about. My system's the best. Look how much money it's making. When I stopped coaching and had my reevaluation period in my life, which was basically 2025, is when I was like, hey, I'm going all in on systems builds because that's what I love to do. My business partner said, hey, why don't we stop coaching and why don't we just build systems for the businesses that we're coaching on? And I was like, dang, I should have just listened because now I just spent whatever, a few months, etcetera, In a loop of what do I do, how do I do it, where I'm, what's next, when in reality, I had the momentum the entire time, but my ego stopped. A pivot that would have been very simple. All because of disconnection, lack of communication. And as most, once you get C suite and higher, I've been doing this, I know what I'm doing. And unfortunately, the market's changing so fast. If it was up to me, you know, bomb drop here, and I was a legacy company, who's ever at the top would have to go because you can't do anything for me anymore. Because if I put you in front of clay and then I put somebody who's fresh out of college in front of clay, Facebook ad zapier and chat GPT to build an outbound system, who's gonna win? Yeah, that's the angle I feel like right now. And it's such a deep topic, right, because it may turn people off from even continuing to listen. The. It's like people don't want to let go of the past. This isn't 2020. This isn't 2015. This isn't. Hit the phones. Why would you hit the phones? If you can make one good YouTube video that answers all the rebuttals, why would you hit the phones? If you could just go spend $50 a day, a hundred dollars a day on Facebook ads with the proper messaging. Hey, C Suite. Hey, founders. Hey, tech. Founder led companies who just got $5 million in funding from VC. Looking to get more leads for your business. Looking for more security, looking for more sales enablement, Looking for whatever the hell you're looking for. Push that ad now, Boom, you're good. But instead you're telling somebody to make 500 cold calls. 300 cold calls on a triple dialer. So now you're paying 5k a month for the SDR, 300amonth for the triple dialer. Let's just say they book 20 appointments. 20 divided by 5,000 will use that number. You're now paying, what, $250 per appointment and you're selling a 97amonth software, bro.

Yeah. How are you going to get that money back?

Exactly. Because now they're playing the long game, which is so dumb, because in react, man, you're about to get me started. Hold on, I gotta cook real quick. I gotta cook, bro. Let me cook. So this is the, this is the approach I'm taking if I ran a software company, right? Let's just say the software is 500amonth. My marketing plan has nothing to do with an sdr. I'm going to Cloud Task and saying, hey, I need a virtual assistant. I don't need a specialist. I need a virtual assistant. Someone who could follow directions. What's my marketing strategy? Very simple. Tech companies who are looking to hire GTM engineers. Boom. Having a webinar. September 10th. Now I'm running. I'm getting 10 signups per day from Facebook ads. The person I hired from Cloud Task is calling every single lead saying, hey, saw you registered for the webinar. Are you guys looking to hire a GTM engineer now they're qualifying. Oh, great. You know that it looks like I think the webinar is going to be good for you, but I also think our 100. I think you should get a VIP ticket. A VIP ticket. You're going to get an extra group call with the host, Kyrie, and he can answer more personalized questions. The VIP tickets only 27. So now let's just say we're selling a hundred dollars a day worth of VIP tickets and we're spending a hundred dollars a Day on ad spend. Our ad spend is now free. We are now being able to put ourselves as an authority in the webinar. Now they're getting an extra one on one call that they paid for which is now aligning, allowing me to sell them on why my solution is the best. And I could still sell on the webinar. And the way I would sell on the webinar, it wouldn't even be the product I would sell on the webinar. Like this. If you join my three day challenge for 497, you're also going to get three months free of my product or service. You're also going to get this support. We're also going to do an audit. I just sold two, three times without ever picking up the phone once. And they raised their hand every single time. They're not ready for that conversation though because that'll be too easy. They want to go drop 70, 80k on someone. Nicole calling cold email. What do I know though, right? I barely graduated high school.

No, but that's, that's that you're dropping some facts there, man. And, and I, I've seen companies that like, yeah, I don't, I don't have to make a single call.

Because it's, it's diabolical. Why would you make a cold call when Facebook just says give me 50 a day, I'll take care of you.

You.

Everything you do now with your outbound process and I really want, I want to get into your outbound process after this. Everything you do now in your outbound process, you have validated that you know how to book appointments. You can just easily run ads with that and just scale it much faster.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the phase that we're, we're actually initiating because we, we, we, we, we invested a lot on the marketplace itself, the functionalities. We want to make sure that the browsing experience, because we, we wanted to be fair for the client, they gave us a lot of feedback. I wanted to make sure that most of the feedback that actually is realistic, we tackle it before we start putting that trigger for the ads. So that's something that we're looking into. We definitely have some credits available on LinkedIn that we never redeemed. So there's budget already just to start testing things out if we were to approach LinkedIn. But I know Facebook, Facebook, Google is not the case for us because Facebook, I see that is the best when it comes to recruiting, especially for Latam. So I know we're definitely heading to that route But I'm actually very happy with the improvements that we made because when we first started the marketplace, it was kind of hard to get people in. Now it's like we're getting over 500 registrations a month of candidates. Obviously, not everybody is top rated, top rated plus, but they're. They're continuing, they're learning what gets a person hired. So a month from now, three months from now, I see those guys getting hired. So. So we're building that engine to make sure that there's consistent demand. But the good thing about our campaigns is that we're constantly getting buyers. We're recruiting buyers, recruiting sellers. We're also inviting a lot of C Suite executives to roundtables, to events. We're also collaborating through newsletters, which helps a lot. So we have this thing called the weekly 10 where we showcase 10 candidates a week. So a lot of. For example, today after my. After my roundtable, I actually set a newsletter that got me three. Three buyers to two to reactivate, one to, hey, I want more candidates. So they're already on interviews. But I would say part of the outbound is also, when the inbound comes, have something they can continuously see. So newsletters, WhatsApp vetted groups are very important because whenever an opportunity comes in, you can just drop it in there, and then you'll get all those messages back. So this if. This would be awesome if people that are watching this that are in the states, don't underestimate WhatsApp. You know, a lot of people like, hey, I don't know what that is. It's one of those 150 software or apps that you have on your phone. It's nothing out of this world. And it's actually something that validates. I mean, that's something that you can have very good conversations. You can add attachments, you can add images, voice notes, you can do transcriptions. So for us, it has been one of our top performing channel for people to get hired. One of the other ones is Slack. And then the other one that people tend to overlook is creating groups on LinkedIn. You know, on the chat, you can actually create a group. That's something that a lot of people overlook. They feel, for some reason, they feel that if they do a group on LinkedIn, they're bothering somebody. And they're not. They're literally there for a reason. So if you can bring somebody, a client right in their inbox, I doubt somebody's gonna hate you for it.

So it's WhatsApp. You know, I think in the US we're going to catch on to it because Facebook owns WhatsApp for now. And so I guess the US government's trying to dismantle that. I don't think it's working. Facebook is now pushing WhatsApp as a call to action on the ads. Now.

Now, huh.

So I do believe in maybe two years, you know, give it some time. And you know, Facebook and Apple, they all, they have a little bit of beef. So you know, maybe I. He's trying to get the imessage on out of here and text in blue. He's like, nah, let's. We're gonna text in green button WhatsApp. But yeah, I want to, I want to segue into something because now we're talking about recruiting. What is your outbound recruiting process for candidates and founders for at Cloud task?

Yeah, so the way that I approach is I always go based on my deal one clients. So people that have already transacted in the past four years. Right. So what I do is I create those lists and Sales Navigator so I actually keep track of the content they publish so I can support them. So it's a genuine way to kind of keep that audience alive. I leverage, I use a lot of LinkedIn so we're constantly reaching out to candidates through InMails messages. Talk, talk to them about the referral program. Talk to them about, hey, if you're looking for an SDR role or somebody, your family, somebody that you know, your colleague more than happy to help. Right. We're, we're never pushy. We're more like hey, if that's something that somebody in your network might need, happy to be the person here. So we get very low friction on those messages actually people feel like, wow, you actually got me at the perfect moment whether it's a buyer or seller. So what I do on the bot, on the buyer side is deal one analysis. I try to go look for look alikes. I try to nail it on the Sales Navigator list and then I start tracking down those guys that look similar to our existing buyers. Be very relevant on the outreach. But most of the time the biggest thing that I can mention is not even get super hyper personalized is people get creeped out. They're actually dealing with the, with a pain. They don't want to read more, they want you. They want to see the talent period. So sometimes it's not so much on the text unless in the at least in the recruiting side. So what tends to be very attractive for them is the video profile when they see a Video of a candidate that speaks more than any personalized email because they get to assess their English level. They get to say, okay, what software is they mentioned? I want that guy, right? Sometimes buyers even want to skip the process. They're like, no, I don't want to do no job post. Just give me that person. He already said everything I wanted to hear. Why am I going to create something when I already found out he's a match? So what buyers is primarily the video profiles. That's something that makes us unique. Also what makes us very unique. Like I mentioned to, to you, most of the time, 90% of our audience are founders. The buyers that are founders. So most of the time when they approach, when I approach them, they might have a software or service that they sell. So sometimes I even have a referral for them, even if they're not hiring through us. So coming off as a valuable resource does help because they might tell me, hey, I'm not hiring now. But hey, try this tool and let me know if you like it. Next thing you know, you have a relationship. Next you know that person is hiring, right? On the candidate side, what we also do is this thing called the boost program, right? The boost program is where candidates approach us and they're like, hey, can you optimize my profile? Can you do some outreach? Promote my profile? Here's an email that you can use. Here's my profile. So we, we kind of get embedded in their profiles and kind of support them so they can get a match faster. So we're pushing that as a candidate. Let growth, right? And the other thing that I do a lot, and it's a piece of advice too, is man, don't underestimate spam. The amount of deals that I, I've turned to deal one just by giving them a chance is something that you could potentially, you know, like this person might pitch you get on the call with them next, you know, it's your time to speak. And then that's when we realize this game. So, like when I realized if you give people an opportunity, their shields are off. And then you come off as. Give them some. Give them a lot of value, of course, right? Because they don't even know why. They don't even know how that email even landed because they failed with the infrastructure, right? So sometimes it's like, oh, wow, I gotta get on this call that I forgot. It was a sequence from a while ago. Whatever. Give those people a chance, talk to them, and then when it's your time to speak, give them so much Value that they're like, you know what, Dave, just tell me anything you got to sell to, I'll give you an opportunity. And I have a lot of people, I have a lot of screenshots of people that approach me like that. It's like one of the, one of my most successful campaigns that I even managed to get Jason Bay, which is one of my biggest or somebody that I really look out to. One of our biggest influencers in the space that I really look out for. I got them like that because I literally told him, hey, you're losing clicks with your feature section. Remove the description and it becomes a direct link. So if you have your, in your, in your feature section, most of the companies, they add a little description to it so it doesn't feel too loosey. But if you add the description, it adds a second stop, a second pop up. And then I tell them like, hey, remove that description, you're losing clicks. And there's guys that are making tons of money just off the LinkedIn, just up inbound. So one click could lose a client. So that was one of the most successful campaigns. I even had the chance to talk to Samantha McKenna, the same approach. Hey, here's some grammar mistakes, here's a broken link. Not to put them on the spot because they can't oversee everything. And these are guys that are pushing so much content that anything can slip. But from her I've gotten nothing but bad. But if there's a chance where I could help, hey, the title's off this and that here to support you. And sometimes they even tell me, hey, I want to hire you. I'm like, hey, I'm not available. But I got a ton of candidates that are as good as me that you can potentially meet and then that turns into an opportunity. So the thing with the angle recruiting is like anybody or everybody at some point needs to hire somebody to delegate or they, they want to understand the software space, they want to understand the agency space. So just try to be very unbiased, low friction, put yourself as, hey, this is, I help people just like you. And if you happen to be one of those guys that need help, I am the right person. And one of the things I want to add to this, like I tell you, most of the founders that I deal with, they sleeping with this pain, pain points. So sometimes, like sometimes it's good to go out of your way and maybe reach out to them at night. You know, like sometimes I do follow ups at night and you would think people will get pissed. They're so grateful that I was thinking about them at that time. And next, you know, they're like, David, you know, I'm actually that pain that I had a week ago, it hurts more now. And the fact that you came in moment when nobody would usually approach me and you're willing to help, that has turned a lot of active buyers in our marketplace. So I know I. I gave a little bit of everything here, but it's the few things that have definitely helped my outbound be a lot more, a lot stronger, right? Not only embedding into those GPT so I can have so much context about them, but it's just an easier way because, like, man, I. I didn't like rejection at first. I would say I would take it so personal. And then I'm like, nah, it's. It's beef. And then I'm like that, like, let me actually help. Let me find a way to help them. You know, like, they just don't believe because of somebody else bad craftsmanship. I'm not gonna feed that. I'm actually gonna show them that I'm not like this, guys. I actually want to help. So it's different angles, but I had to test everything. But the main ones that have helped me, like I told you, care a little bit about them more than their own team. Because sometimes a lot of people are just working off salaries. A lot of people are just, if you don't pay me, I don't perform. When you add that little extra touch, man, that comes with revenue, that comes with good relationships next, you know, you meet them at an event, they speak for you. Like, I go to events where I don't even have to say anything, and that person is already ready to buy or hire. So that's one thing. The last thing I want to say, part of my album that I've been putting in practice lately is going to events, go into events. Like, I've realized that people on social media, people in cell schools and people in person are three different masks. And sometimes, like, I'd rather be in person, and you tell me in my eyes that you're really dealing with this, and then better conversations come off of that. So I feel like, yeah, the things you see on LinkedIn, things you see on those calls, everybody's rushing. But then when you meet them in person and you know there's an hour for you to actually have that conversation is a different thing. The amount of pain points they reveal, they would never say that in a call. They would never say that on social media or on LinkedIn messages so leverage that a lot that has brought us good buyers. I also have my team right now and in inbound. Right now, our team is an inbound. So we were also a saster SAS talk outreach by outbound. And the main takeaway is shake hands, look at people in the eyes, tell them you. You're here to help, show them the options, don't directly sell to them, and you realize how much of pipeline that that does influence.

You know, I like your. What I've gathered is you. You take a very human approach. You know, of course, there's. The end goal is the sale. And I think a lot of people, like, try to, like, demoralize that you want to help because you have an end goal, but that doesn't dilute the fact that you still want to help, you know, especially in business. If not, it'll be different. If you're, like, out feeding the homeless and you're recording yourself, oh, look at all the food. I'm like, that's different. But in business, we understand what the board actually is. And therefore what I like is that you're like, that's how you. That's how you got me to communicate with you. The first message you ever sent me because you. You commented on my stuff. Like, my stuff. I was like, word. I was like, once again, I was like, I see you guys cool. Like, you guys doing your thing, we're in the same city, etc. But then you're like, hey, bro, you know, I have some potential opportunities for you. I was like, how am I. How am I gonna not reply to this? I don't want to say no.

Like, what?

Like, I didn't do anything. And he's all in. Dave's over here, you know, dropping value after our first call. Then you put me in contact with other people. I'm actually doing a podcast interview with Brian from Puzzle. Once he gets back from Inbound, you know, we're gonna chop it up because I believe his tool really is something that's going to help GTM engineers. So I feel like he's a great fit for the channel. I spoke with. What was it? Brandon. Yeah, Brandon.

Benjamin. Benjamin.

Benjamin. Yeah, Benjamin and I spoke. It started off with one conversation. He was like, bro, you know, like, I don't even think you should be here. I think you should really be focusing on ready ups. And then we're gonna set up another call because I just want to know, like, in general, like, hey, tell me more about reviops. I think it's a good look for the channel and for him to be able to have content himself as well.

So he's actually in my short list every time I get an agency, hey, I'm. I'm struggling to scale from 20 to 30 people. I know he's the guy. Whenever I see companies, hey, I'm having struggles to justify my prices when I'm using Clay Brian for. For Puzzle app. Right. So it's good to have those players because they feel the support I learned from them. And it's. It feels good to give people opportunities. Like, I guess like that's, that's what kind of make me a little bit different because I actually more than the money, because everything, every, any given point, you're going to be compensated. But seeing that you can actually help them. Because the way that I see is this. If I'm giving you an opportunity is because I believe in your business. And if I believe in your business, I wanted to put my face in front of the people for you. And if you can deliver on this service, I know you're happy. So sometimes it's more about the goodwill because I always been the kind of person, like, I like to make sure that people are happy with what they're doing. If they're uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable. I'm not happy, you know, so it's good to come off like that because I want to be. I want to be. I want to give back because I had a lot of founders that I speak to. They give me free courses, they give me masterminds, they give me a lot of tools, they even give me licenses. So, like, I want to be grateful with that space because those guys have took the time to build this product and get. Let me use it. So the least I can do is show the world that if this matches your business challenge, they're the guys for it, you know, so.

Okay.

Part of the approach.

It is. And you know, I really do enjoy your human approach. You know, as I tell everyone that I meet, not all rewards in life are monetary.

Yeah.

And I really like to live by that. Please let me. If you're. If we're gonna choose a reward, let it be monetary first. Like if we gotta choose one. But appreciating the fact that sometimes, like me, like you and I, bro, I just enjoy chopping it up with you, bro.

Yeah.

Facts, no cloud tasks, whatever. This doesn't matter. Like, I just enjoy vibing with you chopping it up because I'm like, I have somebody who actually understands the chaos in here. And like, we can go back and Forth. And it's just like. And just like, even on a personal tip, you know, all that other stuff, but that's a different conversation time. But, yeah, man. All right, final.

I have one takeaway.

Yeah.

Yeah. I have one takeaway before anything. So there's this thing that I. I always go by that's called the disc profiling. So D A S K D I S K. So obviously, it's an assessment that you can do. What this has helped me with is understand how I like to be product A approach. Right? Because sometimes we fail to do that, right? We. We. We. We try to. We try to have a silver tongue about everything, but sometimes it goes further than that, right? So when you start identifying that. Because that's something that helped me when I used to do cold calls. I'm not doing as many call calls, but I want to get back in the calls because I do get on meetings, and it's. Honestly, it's. It's basically a call, right? But what I realize is when I start factoring in the disk profiling, for example, Amir, he's a high D. High D is like zero storytelling A to point B. We have to do this because xyz, period. So identifying those Persona traits has helped me a ton because now I understand how I like to be approached. I'm the kind of person that I don't like to be told, david, do this instead. David, what you think of this? And then I will come and go crazy. And it's like, it's just the same thing, but it's just approached differently. And when I started learning that about other people, I feel like I get the best of them, so I'm capable to identify. I'm not the best, but when I start seeing those behaviors, I kind of know what angle to approach. And then when you mix that with high relevance and then adding value, it's just like those people, like, dude, I feel like you always knew me. And it's like that kind of adds a little bit of that. That touch, you know, that's a bar.

Write that down. Wow. It's a fact, bro. It really is. I think that, you know, the positions that we have, It's. It's not sales. It's human psychology, like, beyond human psychology. It's compassion. Because pain points are not just something to sell people on. Pain points are things that keep people. People up at night. I've had my days where I'm like, how am I going to pay my rent? You know, back in 2021, when I was building in public I had to borrow a thousand dollars from my friend because I had to move into a bigger apartment. My son was getting bigger. He couldn't sleep in the bed with me anymore. And the first month I move in there, I didn't have the money. And that was a pain point. I was like, I'm trying to build something. I'm not financially there. I'm working a full time job. And just to have somebody who was just like, hey, here you go, here's the extra thousand you need. I don't want anything from you. And the relationship that built between her and I, it was just so fruitful. Then I ended up scaling my cleaning business. I was like, hey, I paid her back her thousand dollars. And then I was like, I also want you to come and join my coaching program so I can show you how to build your cleaning business.

Very nice.

And that was it, man. And it's just like, because this person, we've never met in person. Like when she gave me the money, like not once, she was just like, she just came to me. It's like I feel like something's wrong.

Yeah.

And she hit me up at night. And the way she approached me was a very, it was very mother like. So it goes to show you about like how people want to be approached. She didn't say, dang, what's going on? Having money problems. This, that and the other. She's like, hey, what's going on? Is everything okay? I saw you just moved into a new place. How was that? And then, and then we just went deeper. She was like, hey, if, if you need, if you do need the money, I'm more than happy to give it to you. And then I told her I do. She was, all she said was, what's your zel? And we never spoke about the money ever again. So that it's, it's funny because that human approach of selling now whenever she needs anything business related, I don't, I'm not charging her my fee. I was like, oh, you're having problems with Vas? Go to this guy. Yeah, you need ads. This is how I would create the ad. Oh, you need to figure out automations. This is how I would do it. So I think your approach, and I know we like to remain unbiased here, but I think you have the best approach out of everyone. Because it's a non selfish approach.

Yeah. No, and it's because I always want to build communities too because like I want to keep these people. My LinkedIn. It's not just like, hey, I'M going to talk to you once and like, you're gone. No, I actually want to learn from you. Like, I, I'm the kind of person that I use the bell in the profiles. Like, if the person has good content, why the hell am I not want to see the same thing again, right? One of the topics that I also wanted to bring is modeling. I feel like modeling is very important, right? Because it's good to learn about ways to approach people, is always good to understand strong, have it strong relevance. But it's also good to model things that work because a lot of the ways that I do the articles, a lot of the ways that I do content is other formats that I like because I got so much value. The way they frame the pain, the way they. So one of the things that I want to do here, because it's also part of the GTM engineer guys, is also learn how to spot those opportunities, how to model those things that you see. Because that's, I would say that's 50 of it too, you know, because not everything, you're going to come from scratch and crush it. You got to grab things that already work and then amplify, right? And it's something that a lot of people miss. Like, they get so much, they learn, they read, they do so much. But it's like, why do you always want to start from scratch? Like you're already good at what you do. Like, just look at this guy. Change your language. You can use lovable, create your page. Next thing you know, you create a GPT with all the context about that you have something, you know, And I feel like that's something a lot, that's a bottleneck a lot of people have. It's just like people that know English in Colombia and they don't even do anything with it, you know? And it's a skill set where it's like, if you know how to model, you can, you can launch things very quick. If and if you leverage your English, you're going to land a job very quick. So it's those kind of skill sets that you also have to develop. It's not just observe, also test, also compare. Right? You also obviously get that background running the marketplace because I get to compare a lot of different solutions, but you also want to compare different formats. There's something behind that that makes the reading experience very unique. So the other thing that I started to realize when I do sequences on LinkedIn is I'll be very honest. The campaigns that I get the most success with are campaigns that are LinkedIn or 100 to 500 characters. Two days between each message, right. And what I do is don't sell them directly. First message is I exist. This is what I do. Second message is who do I really help? So they feel if they feel familiarized obviously they will because I did the targeting correctly. And then the last one is if you know somebody that can have that happens to deal with the same pain point or deal with the situation. Happy to be a resource, right? But what I realized is if you create this outbound in a way that if the person sees it on the phone, it's mobile friendly. And if the three messages stack together they read apps of one paragraph is such an easy way to get through the speed because that's my trick. I make sure that the bio, I make sure that the banner, I make sure the about me. I make sure that my content and I make sure that that three step sequence all kind of ties in together. People have such a least amount of questions and it's like because it kind of sucks when I somebody sends me a message and then I go look at the bio, it sounds the same. I go look at the about me, it looks like a pitch. I go look at the banners trying to like bring it. Trying to hook somebody, like a little bait. I don't like that. So I take my time to make sure that when I do that I look at those friction points because most of the people are looking at everything through their phones and if the three messages sound disconnected, it feels weird, it feels automatic. So I always like to do that. I only mentioned the first name on the first and the third message. I don't do it in every hit because it just, it looks off. Right. But who doesn't like to hear their name? I don't mind hearing my name but just don't mention it so many times. But yeah, that's one of my tricks on LinkedIn and it has worked wonders. I tried it with multiple audiences, I tried it with multiple types of companies because I also like to test whatever I do outside on my own time. I also like to bring it back in the company and test it because that's like for me that's a safe environment instead of having to risk the stuff I already have. But that's a trick man, like tweak everything to be mobile friendly. People are using lovable from their phone and building a websites from their phone now. So it's like try to adapt to that. You know those are the most sophisticated buyers. They got a phone and they know how to use this stuff on their phone. Not everybody wants to take the time to go on a PC and see this stuff. So that's part of the album that for some reason, works very well for me. It's not super high technical. I can get very specific and map out agents to find very relevant information. But I feel like a lot of people rely on this personalization because they don't have a strong LinkedIn. Oh, I want to put it like that, but I have to say it. That's a.

That's controversial right there.

I'm just saying. Just saying.

But you're right. You're absolutely right, bro. Now, we're gonna wrap it up here with one final question.

Go for it.

What would you tell yourself 10 years ago that could save you time, headache, heartache, struggle, everything? What would be that? One piece of advice.

Can I frame it differently? Can I frame it because. Because I'll tell you the honest. I. I actually told myself this before I started working, and that's why a lot of things worked out for of me. What I told myself and I actually achieved it was, if I ever get hired, I'm gonna care as much as the owner of the business, because that's when I'm gonna identify where I can actually perform in the company. And that's exactly what happened when I joined the call center. I got. I got promoted in the first six months as a top candidate for chat, email, and then I was. I was with the first ones to be chosen for when we started launching phones. But that was the first thing I told myself is care more about the company than the founder or at least have enough context that will help you decide where you want to be at the company. And that's the mindset that I got in that company with, and that's what got me promoted, because I didn't realize I could. I was such a good QA analyst at that moment. Right. And that was where they really needed me. Right. And that's what kind of took my career to the next level. But if I was going to tell something else to myself is lean on technology as much as I possibly can. Right. But for me, I would say the biggest milestone is actually having that mindset where I'm not just going to go there and get paid. I'm going to go there and take over that department that needs me. And that was my approach. And I. I stood to it and it worked out.

I love that. So actually, now I have one more question.

Go for it.

What founders that you personally know or Founders that you want to get in contact with because you see their. Their trajectory based on their product or service. Should we be on the lookout for. Give me five names on who we should be on the lookout.

Five names, Five names. I'll. I'll give it to Jason Bay. Like, I learned so much from his podcast. So much. Like, I can't even name the amount of value that I got from Jason Bay. Second one is just a Michael. Just a Michael. He makes you question everything at everyone. So like one of the taxes that I learned from him is unmask people asking the right questions. You know, I mean. Third, I would say Brian. Brian from Puzzle Man. I. I like the guy. His energy, the way like I can. I want. I wish I knew how he sees things because I know the way he process things is just so different. Like, it's just like you, when you try to always look for the root cause him is how do I frame this? So like that's something I. That's why I really enjoy every conversation that I have with Brian. I would say the other one is I'm very interested to meet. I want to meet the founder of Lovable. I feel like. I feel like the way that they do things is just very innovative for me. I'm still learning. I'm not too much in the vibe coding, but those are one of the guys that I want to learn from. He's not a flashy guy. You could tell he's actually always moving with very smart people. So I know there's so much value you could get from this guy because this founders that they like shiny stuff, they like flexing this guy's that you can just tell by the way they dress, the way they act, the way they do things, the comments that even the posts are not even the best quality, but the amount, but the connections, the words they use, the way they frame things, you could tell they. They don't even worry about those things because they actually know what value is. Right. So I try to look out for that in founders. And then I wouldn't say the last. The fifth one would be I actually want to meet the guys from Clay. I haven't had the times to actually meet the founder. I do hear a lot from them. I. I know, I know there's two founders right now, and Clay, if I'm not mistaken. I would like to meet them. Right. Obviously I want to come off as an expert before, you know, I have them in front of me so I can actually not only make them proud, but actually be in their world. But those are people that I would actually like to meet, learn, because I really admire the community base they built and that's something that I think every one of us in this space have admired, what they built. Right. But I'll go for that.

I love that, man, I really do. And where's the future of cloud tasks going? A shout out to Amir. He really is building something great. Great team. Shout out to him for doing it in Columbia, by the way too, because he could have done this anywhere else, but he really, he's really, that's. I love when people build businesses in Colombia. Clearly he's doing something right. If you're been on board for what, seven years now, whatever, how long you've been with.

Yeah, I'm about to be. Eight years.

Eight years, exactly. So where's the future of cloud task? And then let's wrap it up with. Yeah, Dave, like, where, where are you going? Like, where do you see yourself in the next few years, man?

I'm still questioning that myself, but I'll start with Cloud test. So cloud to. The future of cloud test is we're going to transition more into partnerships directly with the software companies where we're trying to get everybody certified in those tools. So we're starting off with companies like salesfinity, we're starting with aimfox. We actually want people to be certified in these tools so that they go. When they get indebted into these companies, they already know how to use those tools very well. So that's actually going to bring up opportunities for those software companies to be seen, those companies to use the best tech and for candidates to actually know how to use this tool and actually give a return on investment on those, on those tools. The future of me, I'm in a transition where I'm just constantly learning. I'm meeting a lot of founders, obviously, thanks to the model that we have with Cloud Test. Like I mentioned to you, if I was just a single solution, a single product, it will be very hard to have so many conversations with founders, right? Because most of them, they will feel like they're being pitched. They will feel that I can only help them in one angle. So thanks to the model that we build, it actually opens up conversations for a lot of people. They're open to talk to us, they're open to explore the options that we have. But I would say I'm in a transition where, yes, I know I'm capable to build a lot of things and sell them and network and meet these people. I, I tend to be Very hybrid. And that's part of my trades as a disc profiling. I'm the kind of person that I can lead, but I can also roll my sleeves and be there and actually be with the team. Because I always tell people, yes, I could lead, but I like to be there in front supporting the team. So I want to use those two trays that I have because they're very unique in the space. People are either frontline or they own the company. They. There's not too much people that fall into between. In between, right. Because they tend to be very high D. I could be a high D, but I can also be a person that will sit there, understand your space, give you an opportunity, work with you, build you, and sell with you. You. And I wish I would have met people with those traits back when I started because I had managers that I would try to get a piece of advice. And the only thing to tell me, call more. I know it makes sense, it's cool, but if the data doesn't reflect anything, any possible outcome, calling more is just going to hurt my time, hurt the business, ruin the reputation. I'm going to get worse habits that I'm going to have to work extra hard to remove. So I would say, I would say just to break it down. That would be my take.

That was a lot. And honestly, you've really been dropping a lot of gems. I think this is one of the best conversations that I've had. The insights you provided, you know, I wish there was more time. I definitely think three months from now, we're gonna have to do this again and we see what new discoveries you have, you know, because as you know, the space is changing so fast that I think that the insights you're going to have 90 days from now, six months from now, is going to be next level. The people you meet, the opportunities. So definitely looking forward to that. I'm going to end it off with this, you guys. If you want to find Dave on LinkedIn, it's going to be posted in the description below. If you want to learn more about about Cloud Task, just go to Dave's LinkedIn and he'll have all the links there for it. And besides that, you guys, another great podcast, really happy. All the stuff is going to be below. We're going to be tagging companies, tagging people, whoever was mentioned in the podcast. And just make sure that you guys utilize these GTM engineering tools. You start taking a more human sales approach. And besides that, we are out of here. Have a good one, you guys.

Do it.