The GTM Engineer Career Path: Skills, Pay & Future You Shouldn’t Ignore

All right, you guys back with another GTM engineer Q and A. I actually had to make an introduction for this video separate from the actual Q A because I just wanted to let you guys know there were a lot of, you know, predictions made and the Q A structure, it was really just like a free flow. I think there's a lot of gems in this video and if you just sit and watch the whole thing through and take notes, you're going to be able to pick apart and really see where the future of not only GTM engineering is going, but where I also think careers, salaries and things like that and compensation plans are going. There's. We dove really deep on the topic of GTM engineering, and I think you're really going to enjoy it. Also, I have some resources in the description below. Make sure you drop me a follow on LinkedIn as well. I'd love to connect with you there and drop me a comment. I would like to hear your guys's thoughts as well. Remember, we're going to all be able to look back one year from now and see, oh, who was right. That's why I'm making these videos now, because I want to see if my predictions are actually going to be accurate in the near future. But besides that, enjoy the video, take some notes, connect with me on LinkedIn, and I'll see you guys on the other side. Let's go. All right, Michael, Well, I appreciate you taking the time, you know, talking to me more. So about GTM engineering, really excited to learn a little bit more about you transitioning into GTM engineering. When do you plan on making the leap? So let's just start with that. You were in tech for two years, you said.

Yeah, I'm going on about two and a half years at this point. Started off as an sdr, moved into a sales executive role where I am responsible now for full stack sales cycle from initial outreach all the way to close. And I've been doing that role for about two years. I found a lot of success so far and, you know, like we mentioned earlier, looking to see what else is out there that aligns with my interests.

Absolutely. How did you get into. Well, I guess how did you get into tech?

So originally, like most people, I was in music education. I'm just kidding. So music education. And then, you know, as I was in the field and I was doing professional singing as well around the world in a classical sense. And then I had my chance to really explore that. But it got to the point where, you know, just being completely honest with you, Salaries weren't keeping up with the demands of the world. And, you know, I was a loner on my own, so I was like, okay, I really enjoyed my time here, but I need to start building a more stable career financially. And so I've always had an interest in technology from the outside. Kind of like a keyboard warrior, just kind of looking in. Eventually I started to explore some of the initial, like, you know, your typical sales methodology. So I started with Challenger Sale, read through that and thought that that was something that I could do. It wasn't a dry read to me. It was like I understood it. So I just started to explore. And the more I went into it, the more I started to realize I had a talent for it. And I had some technical chops and some business chops. So just applying it has been a fun journey so far.

Awesome. I love that everyone in tech, like, has like their own story of how they like got here to begin with. Because, yeah, ending up in tech sales, it's definitely, it's a journey, you know, especially when you're trying to break in, you know, coming from where you come from, you know, with your background in the music, it's definitely. That must not have been like an easy, easy feat to just to really have someone give you a shot, you know. So, yeah, because once again I was there. I get it. But. But this is the beauty of you having experience now, especially being two and a half years in, you pretty much can start going whatever direction you want, you know, going to. I'm not saying you want to leave the company, but going to new companies like the doors and the opportunities after year two ish, then they really do start opening up. So 100 on the right path. And I think GTM engineering is. I, I really believe you're into music. Like, I love music. Right. You know, it's actually I used to be. So I was a dj. I used to like go to all the colleges and I would DJ like all the time, you know.

All right.

Different type of music and environments you and I were in.

But. Well, hey to jump in. Sorry to interrupt, but to be honest with you, the two genres that I appreciate the most are classical and edm. So I'm right on board with you. I gotcha.

Excellent. And yes, it's just I feel like people who come from backgrounds, especially musical backgrounds, I think GTM engineering is the best place for them to be because every time I create something, I get the sense of creativity. Like when I'm producing something on like Ableton Live or something like that it's like, it brings me back to just being able to create once again. And sure, it may not be like a. A track or it may not be mixing, you know, songs in the nightclub, but it still gives me that same dopamine hit. So that's why I love GTM engineering. And anybody with a creative mind or anything related to the arts, I always say, learn whatever. You can go be a GTM engineer because it's just going to give you that feeling of just finally I get to use my, my actual natural talent again.

Absolutely. And that's kind of where. That's kind of the. That same dopamine rush when I was looking at things within. Within my job role, looking at things and just saying, hey, that's a small bottleneck that could save us a lot of time if we address that. And, you know, with my lack of experience, but being able to communicate, being able to communicate to the best of my ability what those bottlenecks are, and having the help of LLMs and being able to work through a communicative and collaborative process, it's same dopamine hit when you get those things solved. And I feel the same sense of like, you solved the puzzle, you solved the problem, and now it was a very specific solution there, which is really fun to do. It's not generic. So that's. I'm right on board with you.

Love it. So then let's segue a little bit into, I guess, what are the questions you have about the role and things like that.

Yeah. So as an emerging role, I'm curious. One of the things that I'm. I imagine a lot of folks that are considering the transition are sitting in this place. I'm trying to thread the needle between two extremes. Right. I don't want to jump ship and completely dive in head first at this point because I want to make sure that I do this with financial stability in mind. I'm at a great company right now, so I'm not necessarily looking to switch companies, but it's more. So how can I apply some of the principles of GTM engineering into my current role and how I could potentially expand my current role in the future to position for a role that doesn't exist yet? Does that make sense? It does.

It makes a lot of sense. All right, so great question, by the way. Like, that's actually a really good question. So to answer the first part, so you're very lucky because you're a full. You're a full cycle in your sales process, correct?

Yes.

So that gives you A lot of flexibility. And if I was in your situation, especially if I own the sales process end to end, basically the first thing I would do is I would build a prospecting machine. You know, how do you could. So you could generate leads and you could start, you know, data scraping and lead enrichment and things like that. And I would build it through N8N because those are like the bare basic GTM engineer go to stack that they always need lead generation. So I wouldn't even make it this extra difficult thing. I would more so just create the lead generation AI workflow on N8N. Not lead generation prospecting where it can just scrape leads from Apollo and then from there it can enrich them with. I use something called Tavli T A I V L Y that actually does, it's a web crawler. So it finds information on the leads that you already have or basically whatever the AI workflow generated from Apollo. And then after that where I would do is just have it put everything in a Google sheet. That would be the first place that I would start. Because if you're going to be a GTM engineer, you have to understand the pro. Like you have to understand the sales cycle. And if you can start building small things even if they're not like 100 complete and functional, it's okay because now you're understanding how the pieces are being put together. So you're able to prepare yourself for a role that doesn't exist. It does exist and doesn't exist. We'll try, we'll segue into that in a bit. But now you're able to prepare yourself through your day job without creating instability because all you're doing now is just creating co pilots and tools for yourself to do better at your job and maneuver faster.

Absolutely. And just to make sure we clarify that point, I say positioning for a role that doesn't exist doesn't exist within my department specifically. I have, I have absolutely seen this role popping up and seen, seen things adjacent to it too. It seems like the market is quite, is trying to figure out what to call this. But I think GTM engineering is probably the best fit for, for that kind of catch all term. So I've seen it popping up too.

It is and it really, it makes me laugh sometimes. Because it's a newer role. Right. Some people call it like rev ops or you know, sales ops. But it's not that. It's. You have to understand beyond just sales. You have to understand marketing, operations, just everything. Of course, not all in one shot. Understanding sales is the first thing to get you through the door to being a GTM engineer. The first thing understanding how to build sales processes. Then they're going to throw more stuff at you later. But at the end of the day, it's okay because once you understand how to build one thing, you start to see it's like a puzzle. It's like, oh, it's. It's pretty simple. I just have to connect the pieces. That's it. So I would start with building a prospecting machine and you can find a lot of that, like on YouTube, how to build those things out, etc. Some people have templates. I've built one I'm thinking about, you know, actually. Well, I'm not thinking on the webinar. We're actually all going to be building one together. So I'm gonna walk everybody.

Oh, nice.

Yeah, so I've got. That's like my little. Oh, surprise, everyone. We're actually gonna build it.

We've ruined the surprise.

I might edit this part out, but.

Yeah, all good, all good. Another thing I should mention, you know, you have people from all different walks of life, I'm sure, trying to figure out where to go in this pathway. And I love the content you're. You're producing and providing. There's one major restriction for me that I have to take into account from the beginning if I'm going to build anything within my role. Because I work at a larger enterprise global company, I have some massive restrictions for, for compliance, governance and regulations. And so I can't necessarily. Well, I would have to take this in two parts, right? I think this in one part. And my personal use, just figuring out how to build things from the NAN platform, Zapier, LangChain, all those tools that I still don't know how to use yet. But then also figuring out a way to translate that to enterprise governance and compliance tools like Microsoft Power, automate your copilot, things like that, and figuring out how to bridge that gap too, so.

That it's more simple than you think. I don't want to go too deep into the weeds here, although, because then I'll just talking like technical jargon and it's just like, all right, what are you talking about, bro? So, but you can get it. You can connect everything through a web hook. Web hooks are key to know every builder in general, if you want to connect anything, software to software, website to website, doesn't matter what it is, it can all be connected through a web hook. Learning web hooks are also one of the very big foundations that people need to learn. They're not. It's nothing crazy. It's literally just one link and another link and you just copy them and put them in one place. So they're not difficult. They're just. No one ever explains it correctly, even me. I don't know how to explain it thoroughly or articulate on it. I just know that web hooks and APIs are like the things you have to know.

I was going to ask if that's similar to an API or an mcp. I don't want to go too far into the tech jargon or anything, but I'll stay. That'll be as far as I go. But I was curious if that was like the same thing.

Yeah, they are. So. Okay, what's your next question? Did you have one?

Well, hey, one thing I was thinking is I've been kind of going through this the way I think about web hooks, which I've never heard that term. That's a much bigger, better and clearer term. I like that. I think of it like a. Like I'm traveling to, to Europe in a few months. So I think about it like a universal, like those universal outlets where you can plug and you can change the adapter in there. And I thought that was really something that helped me out. But. Oh, go ahead.

That's exactly what it is. And when you really understand it, there's no software as you can't put together. I really believe that people over complicate the software connection process. And that's only due to the fact that people haven't taken the time to just write it out like triggers and actions. That's the name of the game. How, what am I? What's the trigger that's going to make this thing fire? And then once it does fire, what are the action steps that I want to happen?

After.

Every automation I build, I build by hand. First I literally write it out and then after that you start seeing the patterns over and over again. When I fill out this form, I want it to go to Apollo. After it goes to Apollo, I want it to go. I want to install an AI, a chat GPT agent. I'm going to prompt the chatGPT agent to be whatever it may be, prompting it to be an SDR doing research on prospects. And then I want it to spit out the formula. Whatever chat GPT finds, I want it to create. This is how I want it formatted. When I send it to a Google sheet, that's how you write it out. And then you can go to Chat GPT after you write it out saying hey, what am I missing here? And then after that you build it out in N8N and I guarantee you you can have a really good build out in like six hours and then eventually it becomes like 90 minutes.

That kind of leads well into my next question. I was going to ask, you know, how long does it typically take to make a small but functional automation and so give around six hours, you know, give or take. I'm sure with experience, in your experience, how often are organizations asking for a new build or a new project? Is that something that happens like weekly, daily, monthly? What are your thoughts there?

So a company I work with, I'm contracted with them, the contract's up in a few months. But the company I work with, they build internal AI tools for other companies. So my job is to always be building. So as the actual GTM engineer role, I think that it won't, you won't get a lot of projects. The difference is you'll get really big projects. I build AI workflows and AI agents for companies doing a million dollars a year, $2 million a year, things like that. They don't need AI co pilots for 64 SDRs. So three, four hours of deep focus, curtains down, headphones in, I can get it done. But you know, the things that you're looking at, like let's just say you know, you're, you work with enterprise, enterprise grade companies, correct?

Yes.

You're going to have to learn more about security, back end security, etc. All of that good stuff. But on the flip side, I wouldn't start there when you're building it out, I would go SMB all the way. So series A, you know, angel investor, those are the people I'll be targeting. Because if you try to, I would don't ever build complex and then try to reverse into simple. Build simple and then upskill.

I've been experiencing that and living that as I'm trying to build things out. I find that you know, in that place where like I'm just learning and discovering at this point it's much more fun to play with less restricted environments and seeing what comes up and then you can learn from there rather than starting with an extremely restricted environment. So all these principles you're you're talking about are definitely things that I'd be interested in learning.

Absolutely. 100%, yeah. That's how I learned. I actually took three months to. Because I always knew how to build out automation. So I started with Zapier. Zapier is where I recommend Everyone go. So you really understand the frameworks of triggers and actions because it's not as difficult. N8N. It could get a little difficult, you know, because you have to understand there's JSON codes you need to copy and paste and there's, you know, they call them bearer keys, which is your API key that you, it's, it could become a lot. But if you start with Zapier, you'll understand triggers and actions. You'll still understand how to connect workflows. And then you move into N8N. Maybe after a week of building five or six workflows on Zapier, then you go into N8 and you're like, all right, you know, let me take this up a notch. Because you understand the frameworks and the foundations now instead of trying to learn everything from scratch and N8N now you're like, hey, I understand how to build the workflow. The new thing I'm learning is understanding the web hooks and the APIs to make things communicate and maybe getting better at prompting. That's about it. And when you don't mean with Chat GPT, you could just prompt a prompt to do prompts.

So yeah, yep, exactly. I think of it like if you have a professional chef in the room and you have a bakery rest or even something to bake, you just ask them, like, you can ask the chef, like, hey, can you help me bake this? And they'll do it. That's the way I think of like meta prompting with Chat GPT is like, you have something that will make these things for you. Just ask it. So I love that mindset.

Literally, it's the best. It's. That's what I love about it. And I think people can move quickly. I do have a fear of the GTM engineer role because I believe this role in two or three years will be the bare minimum to even enter a tech company for all positions.

I'll be honest, from what I see, you know, I want to make sure I'm. I'm being careful here, but from what I see, you know, you have your typical early adapters, you have your people that are waiting behind to see where things go to make sure their investments pay off long term. But for the folks that are taking a more, less race to the finish approach, but more of a systemic, like, let's learn the fundamentals and the foundation and put a structure to this. Those are the people that I'm finding are finding the most success when it comes to building out new roles, new automations, and learning how to collaborate between humans and AI. It's the folks that are not trying to race to be the newest, but race to figure out what's the best repeatable and scalable structure. So I, I think you're exactly right for these salaries that you're talking about. You know, to get into a GTM role. These kinds of things are going to be bare minimum. So I, I completely agree.

They definitely are. And it's, I, I wholeheartedly believe that right now. Well, I'm going to make a prediction and I guess we could rewatch this a year or two from now.

Yep.

I believe the race that's happening quietly is who's going to be the first company to build a 100% AI employee staff. Of course there'll be humans. Well let me not say 100% a majority AI employee and they have a few GTM engineers orchestrating everything on a day to day if things are broken, disconnecting all that good stuff. But I feel like people right now, they're like no, AI can't do what I do. As an sdr. I had a post that was going, it was, it caught a lot of heat on LinkedIn. People like your AI can't do this. And I'm sitting here thinking, so you're telling me that chat GPT, you can ask it anything and at any given moment it can give you an answer. But you don't think that salespeople can be replaced. You're telling me that Tesla can drive you from New York to California with charging a battery for 20 minutes, whatever every 300 miles, but you don't think AI can replace an accounting department?

I mean from my perspective, just kind of looking at it and I've gone through that period of being nervous about seeing what AI can do and being afraid that it's coming from my job and I reframed it as more of like the future of the workforce at these high level companies with these high paying salaries will belong to people that know how to leverage and use AI for its practical strengths. Now with the role like sdr, if you take your job as a whole, it's maybe hard to argue one way or the other, but if you start taking component parts of your job, like sure, an AI may not be as skilled in conversation yet, but an AI can certainly dial more and AI can certainly get more people to the table, you know, because it has that volume to it. And it can also probably prioritize accounts based on, prioritize calls based on answering rates, purchasing data, LinkedIn data, things like that like AI is able to see within. You know, I think it was like 2.1 billion dimensions of chat GPT, whereas we can only see in three and live in the fourth, you know, so I don't think, I don't think there's any question that AI is coming for these roles. It's a matter of the people that are in them. Do you want to partner with AI and use it to strengthen your. Your skills, or do you want to try and combat it? You know, I want to be in the collaboration camp.

Exactly. And I think people are missing out. Like, this is something where I feel like corporations are gonna hate to hear this, but when you understand how to control the AI, your job, every day is going to be so easy. Like, literally, you're. Because we don't have to do the cold calling, the this, the prospecting, the list. Every day we wake up, we're the orchestrator. We're just making sure that everything is going smoothly. And I feel like KPIs are no longer going to be judged on you as an individual. It's going to be judged on your AI team that you control. And then. And so instead of you cold calling as an sdr, now you're looking for the best prompts, how to, you know, get the best data with your AI agents, things like that. And that's how the SCOPE scoreboard is going to be kept in the future. And then on top of it, I believe that salaries, even as an sdr, as it's the lower level. Well, they call it lower level. I think it's the hardest job out there.

Amen.

But that's a whole different topic. I think SDR should be the highest paid in the company, but no one, no one wants to hear that, right? Yeah, but where was I going with this? I completely lost train of thought.

You mentioned having SDR as like kind of your. I guess you were talking about KPIs and the revenue generation and things like that being measured not as individuals, but as a part of an AI orchestrated team that you built.

Exactly. And then SDRs are. I think the SDR role is gonna go. I think that the eventually, not now, the AE role is gonna go because. Have you heard of Delphi?

I have not.

All right, look up Delphi, man. This is gonna be. This is. This is gonna go on YouTube. I'm giving away everything right now. So I have a coach, right? My coach's name is Jeremy Haynes, one of the best Facebook marketers in the world. In the world. I'm not a part of his inner circle. I'm part of his marketing Internet Master group, whatever it is. Mim, he has this thing called Jeremy AI. Jeremy AI. You can text it, call it, or you can have a video call with it. And he just dumped all of his information in there. That's literally like that landing page. When you signed up for the event, all of that landing page copy came from Jeremy AI because it was just his frameworks. And I just put, you know, I put my prompt in there. So either way, I wholeheartedly believe that right now a lot of these positions are going to go away and you're. They're going to be looking for more GTM engineers. I'm sure they're going to call it something different in the future. But I believe that it's going to be like the Hunger Games because it's just going to be a race to who can keep producing the best team. And I wholeheartedly believe that what's going to happen is it's always going to be two people running the team. Somebody technical, somebody who understands sales, head coach, assistant coach, vibe. And you guys go at it all day just building and push, push, push, push, push.

I actually, I do see that vision of the future where that orchestration layer becomes a lot more vital to every level of the sales process. And I think you're exactly right. It's like I don't know if the SDR rule is going to completely vanish, but there is no question that is going to have a very fundamental change. And same with the AE role. I think about it like any of the day to day tasks that we do that don't require a high cognitive load, those are probably going away quick. And so I'm right there with you. I want to position myself currently as a future forward thinker in that, in that exact fashion.

And you're. And you already are, which is great. And it's just like even I'll go back to the SDR role. Yeah, I believe it's gonna go away because AI is just learning too much. Because this is the thing, every time somebody makes a post on LinkedIn, AI captures that. Every question, every time somebody tells chat GPT. Oh, help me with this cold email script. You have to think of it, you're doing it times a million other people. Now we have the people who are building the agents where they're like, great, we'll take all that information, put it into this agent and then it just goes from there. Because I think this is how we're viewing the world. We're Viewing the world in sales with AI as if humans are actually going to care that it's AI. That's the thing. That's the big concept that people are missing. Who says that humans actually care? What if the way we actually sell and embrace selling or being sold to. What if it's adapted? Because we can just tell the AI to shut up and we don't have to sit there on, oh, do I have permission to cold call you? What if it's, hi, I'm AI, I'm going to pitch you a service because I swear saw based on these three things that you needed it. The services X, is it okay to move forward? They're like, yeah. 10 seconds into the pitch, the AI is pitching, right? Or 20 seconds they just say, hey, I'm not interested. Or they say, hey, I am interested. Can you send me to a human? Boom. That's what we have to think about because we keep thinking AI, AI, AI. But what if we re redirect our thinking to what about how humans want to be sold? Do you prefer to call or text?

I'm a texter. It's just easier, faster, less resistance. And I'm right there. I'm right there with you.

This is why everyone has to learn. People are not afraid of AI. They're afraid that they're not going to be good enough to actually utilize AI correctly. Because the journey that you're about to embark on is, is a lot to in like intake. You really think out of all the AI, the AI, all the SDRs now in the AES, how. What's the percentage that you really think they're going to say, hey, let me sit and learn about N8N and Zapier and then chat, GPT and prompting and actually connecting. And then eventually it's going to be security for these tools. Then eventually it's building a team. Not many, but that's where we win. Because that's why they're paying GTM engineers $150,000 a year before they even know what the role is. Because it's an actual talent. I believe that when you got into tech two years ago, being an SDR and then eventually going full sales cycle was a talent. I think we're just something else is about to be normalized in the next year or two. And if I agree, find your footing in company, whoever it is, even if it's your current company, because they'll eventually adapt. All companies do get into a role and just keep becoming undeniable and irreplaceable. I know that was a lot. I'm very passionate about this.

Hey, so am I. You're, you're, you're preaching to the, to a choir right now. So I'm right there along with you. That's partly why I've been proactive, reaching out to you. Just kind of, you know, I've been more of a, you know, lone learner, just kind of picking up things here and there as I go. And I've been learning just by, you know, like seeing something that I'd like to do something about. And then of course, as we know in, you know, in especially larger companies, you know, when you've got a lot of people on the boat and it's a bigger boat, it's harder to steer, there's a lot of implications. And so I got to the point where like there are a few, like just low hanging fruit, some small things that I think could really save up some time. After I did just a basic bit of work of understanding some of the compliance and the restrictions involved, starting to work within those confines just for small things is what sparked all this. And there was zero technical background I had in that. I just was a creative thinker and I was able to name the problem that was the biggest thing. And once you can name that, then you can start going about how to actually kind of set up some rules on how to solve these things, triggers and actions like you mentioned. And so now at this point I want to take that and learn some of the technical acumen, learn how to use These tools like Zapier, N8N things like that to kind of push this forward. So you gave me a monologue, I gave you one right back. We're going one for one here. But I appreciate it.

Yeah, everything you're saying is correct because where you were, that's how I began. I began building automations in 2020. So because Covid happened and you couldn't really talk to people and then the zoom and the software thing wasn't like everyone was doing it, it really was, you know, automations were like, yeah, we don't need automations. We have people to do these manual tasks within. Covid happened for me. And once that happened I was just like, okay, one, I can't afford to hire people but I still need to get these things done. And that's my Zapier journey began. The first zap I've ever made was Facebook lead form sending information to a Google sheet. That was the first one I ever made. And I felt so accomplished and I was like, I'm on to something.

Yep. So exactly.

You're on. I say all that to say that you're really on the right path. My only advice to you is become more aggressive because if you continue playing with it and dabbling in it, it's, it's gonna, you're gonna look up and you're like, oh, I missed the, the window. Because right now your competition to get into GTM engineering roles or just building in general, you don't have much competition. And I say that because the younger generation, the ones just graduating high school, the 25 and under, they have no desire to work at a corporation.

Right?

That's why we're going to be able to win, because we're still okay with working with corporate, which leaves us all the opportunity. And on the other hand, all of the executives and management and C suite management, they're not going to know or have the time nor the willpower to understand any workflows this, that or the other. So now you're really going to be able to play in your own lane. And then on top of it. I wholeheartedly believe GTM engineers will not have to deal with the corporate politics.

I hope so. I hope so. I mean, you know, being in the corporate environment myself, I'm talking to, you know, C level executives from major worldwide enterprise, you know, companies, and you're exactly right. The, they won't have the time or the desire to get into the weeds and the technical acumen. All they're going to want to see is the results. Like how does this save me? What does this save me in terms of time, money and how does this increase quality, how does this build relationships, all that good stuff, which I really do think GTM engineering is the next way forward into doing this and doing this at scale. So right on board.

Then eventually, as I tell everybody, you'll. When you understand GTM engineering as a whole and everyone has different aspirations in life, you'll never have to work for one company ever again because you just understand how to, you, you own the machine. It's not even understanding how to build it. You literally own it. So I'm really excited to see how that plays out. Just amongst employees, contractual agreements, you know, all of that stuff. Eventually maybe salaries changing from salaries to rev share for GTM engineers. You know, it's, I think we're about to see the most craziest time in corporate in the next year or two, max.

I think. Yeah, I think that's gonna, I mean, I think under the scenes it's already starting, you know, the Most, you know, you look at your smaller companies, your startups, your things like that. There, there are a lot of companies out there. You look at open AI for example, like they don't have a dedicated sales staff that from, from or no, I'm thinking of a, I might be thinking of like some of the X, like the, the Elon Musk, Musk backed back to companies. But yeah, a lot of those companies, they have a much smaller sales staff than you would expect because they have things like this in place. So like it's coming, it's coming, it is.

And I'm really glad that you know one. That's why I'm happy about doing the webinar, so I could talk to more people like you who may not be in it yet. But you're like, hey, I feel something here. I don't know what, but I see something happening because it also helps me with my validation because sometimes I look at myself like I'm crazy. I'm like, am I, am I just like crazy? Do people actually really want this? Maybe I just got lucky. But I'm seeing it. More and more companies are asking, people are asking, but please take the next 90 days to just learn everything you can. It's going to suck and it's going to be frustrating. Things are going to break all the time. But I promise when you, when it clicks, you just open yourself up to the highest level of financial freedom in the corporate world possible. Because once again, no, it's not just about knowing, right? It's the fact that you understand sales. Software developers don't understand sales. They understand numbers. Sales people don't understand base anything technical to anything tech related. They just understand how to sell quotas, KPIs, when you can merge those into one, how can you ever be stopped?

Amen. It's a huge gap right now is having those connective tissue pieces between people with technical chops and people with pure business and sales focus. So I, that's exactly why I'm trying to fit in here because it is a huge gap. As technical, as technical capability increases at, at the rate that it's going and even faster, you're going to need those people in between. And I think the GTM engineer role, whatever we, whatever the market ends up calling it, that's a huge gap that companies are going to need when they start to see their revenue fall behind. That's right. Along with you.

I'm excited to see where SaaS companies go as well because as a, someone who does this as a day to day the only requests that I'm getting are to build internal tools to replace other tools. Clay. I don't know how they're going to survive in the next year and a half, two years, full transparency. I built, I built another version of Clay in eight days for a company they spend for them to acquire 50,000 leads, what we'll call them prospects. It cost them with all the APIs firing and all that, $120 a month for 50,000 prospects. And then they. We had it automated where then it will just automatically send out the email emails on Instantly, which is, I don't know. Are you familiar with Instantly?

No.

It's a cold email platform that sends emails at scale so you could send, you know, as many emails as you want. 100, a thousand, 10,000. Definitely look into that because you'll need to know that as you're working through N8N. You still have to know all the softwares in order to connect the things, right?

Absolutely.

But overall it's just what you're seeing. Like there's some. I don't. Next prediction. I made the prediction my last video. I wholeheartedly believe that if you don't become a GTM engineer, you have to become a GTM consultant because people are going to want internal tools and they're going to want to pay premiums for them. I do GTM consulting on the side as well outside of my full time job. They know I do that. Otherwise I wouldn't work with them if I couldn't do it. My minimum charge to build out any sort one workflow is $7000 and then $1500 a month to manage it.

1500 to manage it?

Yeah.

And how much, how much time do you would you say like on average it takes you to manage one of your workflows?

I prefer not to say while this is recording.

That is completely understandable. I see that only as someone like coming from a musical background. I completely understand. It's not necessarily the time you're paying for. It's the understanding and expertise that you're paying for. You spent the time. So it's not, I do not want to frame it as like, oh, you're not doing much like, no, you've done all the legwork up front and to bring somebody else on, that's, you know, that's the thing that you're trying to save the other company, you know. So I would be looking at like 1500amonth. It's either that or you're bringing on an entirely new employee to manage this and I'll bet they're going to cost you more than 1500amonth. So take your pick.

It's 1500amonth per workflow.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's because, you know, I, I didn't specify that with a client when we signed the contract. Ah, I let it slide because he was like the first one who gave me a shot like on something high ticket. But yeah, I built out like seven workflows for him and I'm like, I still, I have to manage all of these, you know and they do break, they break like once a week. So it's not like it's not hard to fix. Just sometimes the stuff disconnects and I have an AI that I built that alerts me when something disconnects now. So.

But yeah, nice.

Either way, if you were to do it, I would probably say you'd go in, you'd spend an hour a week probably fixing things. Okay, yeah, depending on the volume. It's nothing crazy but as you said it's not about the time, it's about if it doesn't get fixed, how much is being lost.

So absolutely, yeah man.

So there's a lot of, there's a lot of avenues. Did you have any other questions?

I'm curious, do you ever get any folks? Because me personally, you know, as I'm still in kind of that exploratory phase, you have the GTM engineer role which kind of sits between that like marketing, product, sales place, you know I've also been exploring things like, like sales execution and enablement and coaching along with sales leadership which that's partly what attracts me to GTM Engineering is like so many of those skills are versatile and can be applied across disciplines for, for that true, for that you mentioned like those cross collaborators, they really find it that way. Do you find a lot of people that are in that place that are, you know, those roles may not exist yet but you want to apply several things for their own path.

So the role GTM engineer is very blanket. So it's whatever, anything sales related, they're going to throw it under the GTM engineer blanket. I think that the biggest, and I mean the biggest opportunity right now is sales enablement through AI because think about it, sale to hire someone to do sales enablement costs anywhere from 80 to 120k a year. Right. That's the salary range, the trainers X, Y and Z, all that. But if you can just create something in Nann, which you can connect it to Delphi in reality or just set it up with Deli Deli cost 200 bucks a month. You can literally. 200 bucks a month plus x006 per minute you talk to it, you can automate the entire sales process. And I mean the sales enablement process. My. Something that I wanted to build out, I've just been getting sidetracked. But I do want to finish it. I. It's a. I want to start. It's an AI clone because I want to be able to duplicate sales managers so when they're getting messages in slack from new employees, SDRs, AES, the AI can just answer for them. So now you're saving time, minimizing response time, all these other things, and then boom, that's pretty much it. But this is why I even say, even sales managers, I don't. They're going to have to prove their value eventually. Because if they can't control, if they don't know how to run the AI team, you can't say that. AI doesn't need motivational weekly meetings and huddles. It doesn't need you to keep track of its KPIs, because all you have to do is give it the math equation and it'll update it at the end of the day and simplify it for you.

Exactly.

It goes deep. It's like, I feel like we're talking about, like, conspiracy theories right now.

I mean, to be honest with you, it feels a little bit sci fi. I mean, I think, I think once the dust settles and we start to see broader adoption, we're going to start to see, you know, we're going to start to see the urgency from the rest of the market of like, okay, this is not just a fad or a plaything. This is like, for real. So what do we do about it? And I think that's the sweet spot for, for folks sitting in that GTM engineer role. You're going to say come to the waters at that point. Because I've been, I've been swimming for a few years now. I'd love to. I'd love to help you out.

Exactly.

Completely agree.

I'm ready to see what the changes look like. You know, my next contract that I plan on having, I told the last person I spoke to was like, I want a quarter million dollars a year. Like, I just, like, why wouldn't. Like, if I could save you from paying for Clay Zoom info, if I can save your SDRs. Or to the point where maybe you won't even need an sdr, you could just hire somebody overseas to just finish the. Finalize the booking etc. I think, I think I deserve a quarter million dollar salary.

You know, I would say at minimum.

Exactly. Sales enablement. I. I already have the blueprint in my head on how I'm going to replace anything with sales enablement. That's saving them a half a million dollars a year right there on two or three sales. Sales enablement people. Softwares. One day, I wholeheartedly believe I'll be able to recreate a CRM and build it internally. So that's just, that's the minimum. Well, once I get to that level, quarter million dollars won't be enough. But.

Exactly.

That's, that's the level. And that's the thing though. So if you take, and I say all that to tell you, if you take this, these next few months to learn the basics, the next year to get really good, because you have to understand it'll only take you maybe six months to a year to get good. Why? Because AI keeps getting better. If AI.

Exactly.

Yeah. Now your job just becomes easier because you know how to drive the car.

Exactly.

It goes deep, my man. It goes deep.

So I'm excited. I'm excited to get on that path.

Likewise. Likewise. Cool. Michael, I do have a call in five minutes. Let me stop recording.