How To Create Awesome Profits In Real Estate With ADUs with our special guest & client Brent Edwards

Let's go ahead and get started. Hey everybody, welcome to the Raise Capital Legally podcast and YouTube channel where we talk about topics of interest to real estate syndicators and fund managers with opportunity for live questions and answers before we sign off. I am Kim Lisa Taylor, the founder of Syndication Attorneys and also a corporate securities attorney. The reason that we do this particular podcast is to introduce our audience to topics, education, and services that they need as they grow their syndication business. And we've been on a mission to talk with our clients who are doing things besides multifamily to help educate our audience on other things that they could syndicate and invest in as well as multifamily. So before we get started, please note that audio and video from this event will be posted on our podcast platform, our YouTube channel, website, and social media, and will be made available to the public. You can ask questions at the end of the broadcast by raising your hand or typing your question into the Q&A. Information discussed during this event is of a general educational nature and should not be construed as legal advice. Thank you again. Okay, so today our topic is how to create awesome profits in real estate with ADUs with our special guest and client Brent Edwards. In this episode, we will dive deep into the world of real estate investment and explore how accessory dwelling units can become powerful tools for generating profits And learn how the ins and outs of ADU development, key strategies to maximize your returns, and tips for navigating local regulations. Whether you're an experienced investor or just getting started, this episode will show you how to unlock the potential of ADUs and create sustainable income streams in today's housing market. So, Brent, welcome to the show. Thanks for agreeing to come. Happy to have you. So tell us a little bit about you and how you got started with ADUs.

Right on, Kim. Yeah, thank you. Uh, thanks for having me. Um, how did I get started with ADUs? Well, I got in the real estate game in 2009. Actually, I started, uh, as a foreclosure trustee because I graduated college and everyone was getting laid off. Nobody was hiring, everybody was firing. And I was looking around for jobs and I kept hearing this word on the news, foreclosure, foreclosure, foreclosure. I didn't even know what a foreclosure was, but I was like, well, those people sound sound busy. So I happen to know someone who is in the foreclosure business. I picked up the phone and said, hey, um, can you give me a job? And he said, yeah, come clean my garage. So I started doing manual labor for him, eventually started doing manual labor at the office, and then I kind of moved up from there. So, um, I did actually get into the office and do the foreclosure game with him for about 3 or 4 years. And I watched people, uh, trade notes, buy properties at auction, uh, fix and flip houses. And that was my first sort of insight into the investment world and real estate. Um, I realized I really enjoyed it. I the space. Moved to the brokerage side in 2012 as the foreclosure game started to slow down. Still in 2012, a lot of the business here was, you know, fix and flip. Um, you know, so I, I was bird-dogging for a lot of those people as a real estate agent. You know, we all have— anybody in this space knows that the flippers go to the agents, hey, if you have a deal. So I learned how they were analyzing deals. Fast forward a few more years, 2016, 2017, California came out with, uh, AB 2299 and SB 1069. And what these laws did is they limited the local jurisdiction, the city's restrictions on ADUs. So the base— the state basically said, hey cities, get out of the way, you got to let people build these ADUs. Um, 2018 to 2019, you saw that start to explode, and there was triple the amount of ADUs in 2018 and 2019 compared to '16 and '17 that were permitted. So you really start to see the upswing in 2018, 2019. Um, In 2019, they had— the state adopted another set of bills that eliminated a lot of the parking. And so all of a sudden, by 2020, this stuff is going gangbusters. And in that time, I'm helping people buy and sell real estate as a real estate agent. These ADU laws are coming out and then they start asking me, okay, Brent, I bought my first house. I did that. You know, I'm settled in here, got a little extra money. I want to do some investing. I hear about all these ADU laws. And so it sort of took off from there, consulted a couple clients on their ADU builds. Now I'm doing one of my own, raising some capital for it, and continue to consult with clients who are looking to take advantage of that.

Wow, that's fantastic. So yeah, it seems like you've been on a little bit of a journey. But yeah, we were aware nationally, of course, that ADU laws in California, and then when Governor Newsom signed the bill that kind of got the cities and counties out of the way. That was national news. So, um, that's, that's really cool to learn that there are people that are learning how to take advantage of it. But, uh, tell everybody just so they understand, what is an ADU?

Yeah, so ADU, I mean, it stands for accessory dwelling unit, and what it is is it's a secondary housing unit that is added typically to an exist— it's usually existing, but in some case you might build them both at the same time. But it's a secondary housing unit on a on a typically a single-family zoned lot or multifamily zone lot, but it's secondary housing is essentially what it is. It's adding another unit.

And so why is this so popular, particularly in California?

Well, I think for a few reasons. Just the simplest answer to that is because they create a few different options. I think they are They create benefit for people who are looking for additional living space for family, maybe communal living, maybe to provide some rental income either for cash flow or just to offset some housing costs. It acts as sort of a form of house hacking, if you will, and it's popular because it's pretty inexpensive to add a second unit compared to, say, buying one. And so I think the flexibility of what it offers to people with various goals is what makes them so popular.

And so I know this is a little off topic from what we were talking about, but I happened to talk to somebody in the Bay Area yesterday that was working on a development, and I think that he said the square footage cost per square foot to build where he was is like $300 to $340 a square foot. What's the price point in San Diego?

Yeah, I think that's a fair point. Fair estimation. Um, the— I think, I think between $300 and $500 a foot, depending on what you're doing and how you're doing it. It can get up to $500 a square foot. Um, but for the example, the one I'm building, the vertical build costs are going to be around $300 a square foot. But then there's probably another $50 or $60 a square foot in, um, A&P— architects, engineering, and permits. So by the time you're all said and done— But it also is going to depend on The style of building you're building, you know, the foundation you have to build, what the soil conditions are like. Is the lot flat? Do you have to build retaining walls? Are the utilities accessible? So it could go from, it could go from $250 a square foot to $500 a square foot in a hurry if you have to build on caissons, move dirt, tie in utilities that are, you know, far away and things of that nature.

And so you really need to do a lot of due diligence to figure out what your costs are going to be to know if it's going to be cost effective to do it.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think, yeah, absolutely. And I think the best thing that one could do, or I'll speak for myself, the best thing that I've been able to do so far is to kind of learn, um, the initial steps of feasibility and sort of have an understanding of some rough estimates of what things cost. I mean, you're never going to know to the penny, but I can start looking at it from a high level, understand how to look at zoning, understand what kind of lot I'm looking at. And kind of understand, you know, are utilities nearby? Are there any easements that are going to be in the way? So there are some— there's a lot of stuff that you could know upfront to be deadly to try to avoid some of those costs. And then sometimes you just gotta learn along the way.

So it doesn't sound like this is something you should do by yourself, right? If you just have a house and like, hey, I'm just going to go apply for a permit and build this thing, maybe they Uh, somebody would be better off talking to someone like you who has a little bit more of a clue of what's going on, right?

Well, I'm just, I'm just another bozo in the bunch, so I don't know if I'm special because, um, you know, I have a, I have a ton of experience in the real estate game as a real estate agent. So I've seen it, you know, people doing this on the fringe. I've consulted people doing it. I've watched other people take the leap, and I still have a team of people I call them sanity checks. Even though I think I know what I'm talking about, I'll reach out to other people in my network, other developers, attorneys, yourself, you know, on the syndication side, as well as, you know, other attorneys as far as, you know, things I can do with the lot legally.

Getting your zoning, getting all of that.

All of that.

So, what kind of attorneys? That's a good question. What kind of attorneys do you use? Probably someone in land use in case you need any zoning or easements, right? Real estate attorney to help with contracts and things with contractors?

So yeah, I suppose at this stage of the game, the only attorney that I have, the only attorney I'm working with and engaging with right now is, is you guys as the syndication attorney, you know, the people who are helping me raise the capital. But I suppose, you know, if you do a— if you have a survey done and you're trying to build somewhere. Maybe your, maybe your neighbor's fence is in your yard and you need that space to build your ADU. And then all of a sudden you need a real estate attorney to try to figure out lot lines and things like that. Um, you know, my CPA is, is a huge one in my corner. Hey, what are the tax events going to be if I try to pull this off? And then aside from that, it's architects, it's engineers, it's soils people, it's contractors. And my new favorite, uh, sort of person on the team is a utilities consultant because there were some questions around you know, my architect had designed a 3-story building on one of my properties, and, uh, there was a power line that ran right through where the building was going to be built. And I said, dude, we got to design this so it's away from the power line. And then the question was, well, how far away from the power line does it have to be? And then, and then you start looking at the, you start looking at the utilities rules, General Order 95 it's called here in California, where it shows how far you have to be from everything. And if it's certain wattage on the power lines, you have to do certain things. If it's certain wattages, you can be closer. And so then the question is, is how How close can I build? Then I'm calling people in my network that work for the utility company. Hey, do you know how many watts this line is? Because I'm trying to figure out how to design the build. So yeah, architects, engineers, utility people, attorneys, taxes, construction people, and then just other developers that have done this before. And I'll show them, hey, this is what I'm planning on doing. Anything here that you think is insane? And I lean on everybody. I don't trust myself.

That's a good point. Yeah, always good to get a second opinion, right? Except when you're dealing with us, of course.

Yeah.

All right. So I think that was a key point is what other kind of attorneys and professionals are needed because you really have to build a team to get this done. And what is the typical lead time between the time somebody either— so you do these things on your own properties? Do you also consult and assist other people if they want to do one on their property?

I do.

Yep. In fact, we're consulting with 2 people right now, and I'm building one of my own. So we absolutely can do both of those things.

Okay. And so, you know, that's a big part of it is knowing who you need on your team and having a consultant that's already done it and actually doing it for themselves can help you streamline that process because they already know who they've used that worked or didn't work. So you don't make those same errors or, you know, you get the right people up front. So what are the key benefits of adding an ADU to a property from an investment standpoint? Like, you know, what are just the additional rent? But I guess you're going to have some increased taxes, property taxes, things like that.

Yeah.

So I mean, the key benefits are basically twofold. You have the value added that's— that you create just by building it, right? So for example, the property that I'm building around right now is Pacific Beach area of San Diego. Um, I'll build for about $325 a square foot-ish when it's done, um, and it'll be worth about $1,000 a square foot. So depending on where you are, um, you know, I always look at build costs versus after-repair value. So if I'm building for $300, $350 a foot and it's worth $1,000, I mean, that's That's a huge benefit in and of itself. You know, your mileage may vary depending on the size, the scope, the type, the neighborhood. That can change honestly from lot to lot, from zip code to zip code. So, you know, take those numbers with a grain of salt. But that's, that's a big part of it is the value that you're adding by doing the build.

Well, and that's one of them, but that you only realize that value if you're ready to sell. But let's say you want to live in one and rent out one. I guess the other benefit now is you've got some rental income coming in on your property.

Yeah, right. And whether, and whether you live in it or don't, right? Yeah. Living in one, rent the other, doing a house hacking thing, it can offset your cost. Or one of my clients right now that I'm consulting for, he's adding a third unit to his property, this ADU, and he's doing a garage conversion. So the garage conversion, it'll cost him probably $100,000 by the time he's done and it'll rent for $2,200 a month. So, you know, call it $25,000 a year in income on a $100,000 investment. That's phenomenal cash flow. And that's the other benefit is the phenomenal cash flow they get. It's really hard to cash flow in high cost of living areas like San Diego, buying a single family or even a multi-unit. You don't just— you don't cash flow much here because the values and the appreciation. So if you're looking for cash flow and looking to be in a high cost of living area like San Diego, that's the other added benefit.

Okay. And so what kind of properties are typical? I mean, you know, are ideal for doing this?

Flat, flat lots. And I can't, I can't tell you how much of a headache it is once you have to start moving dirt, once you have to start doing earthwork. It just, it gets really, it gets, it gets complicated. You just add a layer of complexity that, you know, people can do. I'm not saying it's impossible, but for me, I think an ideal situation when you are, when you're doing one of these is, you know, you got to look at zoning. So if you have a multifamily lot, you might have a single, like one of my property now, it has a single-family house, but it's a, it's a multifamily So zoning characteristics such as that in specialty areas, such as like in San Diego, we have the, you know, transit priorities areas, the sustainable development areas where they allow you to do some different things. Lot characteristics, you want it to be flat, easily accessible to utilities, no easements running across the property. And ideally, if you have an existing property on it, that that existing property is logically placed on the property. So for example, if you have a single-family home and you're building a duplex on it, ideally, you want to be able to get that duplex on there. The one I'm building, I've got a square lot and the existing property is in the top left corner. So I have this entire space to build.

Yeah.

But if the house was smack dab in the middle of the lot, then you can't really— you don't have as much flexibility. So, um, logical placement of the existing building. If you can— corner lots are great, or, or whatever kind of fashion where you can cause the ADU to be privately accessible. The more you can make these things feel like they're not part of one another, um, I think the more value it creates because a client A tenant, an owner would feel like, oh, this has more of a single-family home feel rather than an apartment or shared lot type feel. So those are some of the things. Oh, another thing, if you have an existing structure for conversion, if a structure is already there and you can just convert, that saves you a lot of time, money, effort, and energy. Like my guy is building this garage conversion, you know, all he has to do is run some plumbing and a couple of light bulbs and boom, you got an ADU.

So.

That, that type of stuff, specialty zoning, lot accessibility, existing structures.

Okay. Um, so can you actually sell an ADU once you build one?

Oh man.

So this is one of the things that I'm actually planning for. And so everybody plug your ears so you don't hear my secrets. So the state did, the state came down and passed a regulation that does allow you to sell ADUs separate as a separate dwelling, you know, almost like a condo format, right? Where you build these ADUs and can sell them separate. Now, what the state did in that legislation is they allowed the cities— they said, okay, we're going to allow this, but the cities have to adopt it. The only city that I'm aware of to this point that has adopted it in the state of California is San Jose. I'm not too familiar with how that's working in their area, but, you know, this ADU thing was a long time coming. And finally the state put their foot down and said, all right, cities, get out of the way. We need housing. Yeah, we're gonna make you, you know, we're gonna limit your ability to restrict ADUs. Well, that's great because it's gonna create a bunch of rental inventory. But the next step is how do we provide for sale inventory? Because yeah, adding supply will, will, will help rent stabilize, but we still have this, you know, skyrocketing of values and this housing crisis, you know, as they say, prices are, are getting more and more unaffordable. You know, affordability is in the toilet in San Diego. It's really, really challenging to afford it. And so if all of a sudden you take all these ADUs that have been built in the last, you know, 5 or 6 years and make them saleable condos, that's going to be a huge supply of inventory. And so the way I'm designing the ADUs that I'm building, there's certain regulations in order to allow the ADUs to be buildable. And so just, you know, kind of a pro tip is when you're designing your ADUs, Make sure you reference the state's guidelines on how to make it saleable, because I believe in the next 5 years, the next step for the state is going to be say, okay, cities, you don't want to adopt this, we're going to adopt it for you. And I think these things are going to be saleable. So I'm preparing mine as if they are saleable today. That way, if they're saleable in the future, I'll have more flexibility, more exit strategies, more options. And if they never are, okay, fine, they just aren't. And it's just forever a triplex.

But Right, right. Interesting. Um, what about insurance? You know, I mean, we're all hearing the horror stories about the poor people that have been burned out in Los Angeles. What's— uh, are you having trouble getting insurance on any of your properties?

Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'd like to say, I'm from the Los Angeles area. I've got a lot of family, friends, and clients there, and like, my heart goes out to everybody who's struggling. My grandma was evacuated. Um, thank God her house was spared. Um, But, you know, my heart goes out to everybody that's facing those challenges. It's just a horrible thing. So first and foremost, you know, shout out to those people going through that. With regards to my insurance here, there are some— so on my properties, no, they've— I've been mostly spared. I mean, my insurance costs doubled at my property in the last 2 years, but it went from $65 a month to $120 a month. So, you know, I think you kind of hear a lot of rhetoric around, you know, insurance doubled. Yeah, it sucks. But, you know, $65,000 to $120,000, it's not, it's not making it cost prohibitive, cost prohibitive in my deals. Now, I know other people are having other experiences where it's 10x or it doubling or tripling, or in some cases they haven't been able to find insurance. And so they're having to go through the California State Fair Plan, which is a state-regulated insurance company. It tends to be more expensive, higher deductibles, less benefits. But, you know, on the real estate agent side, helping the buyers and sellers just in their everyday transactions. You know, there's some challenges there finding some insurance at times. But at the end of the day, we're still closing deals with those people and the insurance is more expensive than it was, but it hasn't become cost prohibitive. So I haven't had this horror story experience. It's a little more expensive. It's kind of a pain in the ass, but it hasn't stopped real estate from being, you know, moving along.

And I guess it's largely dependent on where you are, whether you're close to what is deemed to be a fire risk area versus are you in a more urban area where it's considered less risk. We've had similar issues in Florida. I'm actually at our Florida place right now, and our insurance a couple years ago went from $3,000 a year to $5,000 a year.

Yeah.

So it could become cost prohibitive at some point. You know, because you're going to be spending, you know, $1,000, $1,500 a month maybe just on insurance. Even if your house is paid off, you still got to pay that much to live there, you know, which could be challenging for senior citizens. Thanks. All right. So let's see. So can you explain like what I think we've talked about, like how could you manage the costs? Is it mainly just, you know, working with someone like yourself, understanding what a typical Engineering, architectural, you know, feasibility, what all that stuff costs, you know, or is there something else?

Yeah, so I think the best way to manage the cost is call me because I, I'm a dream crusher. The first thing I do when someone calls me and says, hey, I'm thinking about doing this, the first thing I do is find out reasons why you shouldn't or you can't, because that'll, that'll just save us a lot of time. And so I always tell people, try to find a reason why you can't do it rather than a reason why you can, because then you get, you move straight to the potential problem points. So the first thing that you could do is work with somebody, either, either gain some knowledge yourself or work with somebody who kind of knows how to do a general feasibility. So for example, when a property comes across my desk, I know how to look up basic zoning laws. I know how to, you know, kind of measure setbacks and have some idea, you know, of some construction costs, some rules of thumb. So as much as you can do upfront and try to, you know, answer the question of why can't I do this? That's— you save yourself a lot of money before you bring in attorneys and architects, you know, to charge you thousands of dollars to tell you you can't do it. Try to figure out why you can't do it yourself. So that would be my first piece of advice. Beyond that, start with, you know, a feasibility study. Ask around before you do full-on blueprints, before you get engineers out there, before you start wasting your time with attorneys and things like that. You know, walk into the city offices. Every, every interaction that I've had with the local government, the city planning department, whether it's City of San Diego or the other jurisdictions throughout our county, they've been really helpful. I walk in with an APN number or a property address and I say, I want to build an ADU here, and I hand it to the person at the desk, or I guess now in the Zoom meeting, and they tell you exactly what you can and can't do, and they'll point you right to the code. And so I would start with as many free resources as you can. Google is your friend. ChatGPT is your friend. The city is your friend. And, you know, you got to take all that with a grain of salt. I wouldn't say, you know, ChatGPT has all the answers. I wouldn't say I have all the answers, but start with things that are reasonably cost. Try to figure out why you wouldn't be able to pull this off. And then at that stage, then we can start bringing in professionals and, you know, kind of go from there.

So how about getting financing? Can you get bank loans to build an ADU?

Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's a bunch of options. So, you know, a lot of people, if you bought your home, you know, before 2020, you have a ton of equity in your home, right? So you can do a home equity line of credit. You could do a cash-out refi. In fact, you can do, if you're purchasing a property, FHA 203k, Fannie Mae Homestyle, and I believe the VA renovation loans. The point is FHA, conventional, and VA all have a renovation loan product available. So VA, you could go 0% down and get the loan funds to build the ADU. I'm not 100% sure on VA, so double-check on that. But I know that FHA, I know Fannie Mae. So if you're looking to buy a home and you have 5% to put down, you know, through a conventional 5% Fannie Mae loan, look into Fannie Mae Homestyle Renovation Loans because they will loan you the funds. You could bring in your, your 5% down. And there are conventional funding options to get these things built. And then, of course, there's always, you know, hard money, private money lenders. You can do joint ventures and partnerships. You can talk to the syndication attorneys about, you know, syndicating larger deals. So, I mean, funding— I always tell people, if you have the deal, the money is the easy part. And there's a whole bunch of ways you can get creative to fund these things. Absolutely.

Wow.

Okay.

What states current? There's more than just California that allows this, and I think we did some research and found out. See, California, Oregon, Washington, Vermont, New York, and Colorado. And I actually think there's a couple more because I did a search on this the other day, and there were eight different states that allowed it. We'll see if we can get that information for you. But so if you're in one of these other states that allow it. Then you should certainly, you know, research that, find out if it's allowed everywhere. They may not have the, you know, eliminate the red tape rule that California came out with. So you may be kind of beholden to the county or city that you're in as far as getting it approved. But, you know, if you start, you know, doing some research, and I love what you said about ChatGPT because it's great just to go, hey, ChatGPT, I live in such and such and I want to do an ADU. What are the laws around that? And it'll give you, you know, maybe an idea of what those laws are so you can go research them direct and figure out, you know, all right, let me read that and then figure out who's in charge of it and go talk to them. So it's always, you know, don't rely on it as your end-all because it could be wrong, but you can use it as a starting point for your own research. And that's a lot of ways that, you know, attorneys end up using You know, ChatGPT, Google searches, all of that is, uh, you know, often a way that we start legal research just to figure out, okay, where to go to find the right answers and, uh, and try to always go directly to the law. Um, all right, so San Diego, uh, I think you and I talked about something called a bonus ADU program in San Diego. What's that?

Yeah, so the bonus ADU program basically says, um, so San Diego sees all these people building ADUs and, uh, you know, what are, what are us investors going to do when we build ADU, we're gonna ask for the maximum rent possible. We are not in this, uh, for charity. You know, housing— lack of housing affordability is a very real thing, and I'm not making light of that. I know plenty of families out here struggle, especially in a high cost of living area. But at the end of the day, we are in a role of investment. And so San Diego says, how do we, um, how do we allow this ADU program to benefit people, um, rather than just line the pockets of investors? So they have this bonus ADU program where on a single-family zoned lot, you're to build, I believe, one ADU and one junior ADU, which is basically an attached— an ADU that's attached to the house. But the city came out and said, we will allow you to build with certain restrictions. We will allow you to build an unlimited amount of ADUs in certain areas. And what they do is they say for every affordable housing restricted ADU you build, we'll let you build a regular one, meaning So my, for example, my client, he's got his main residence and he's got an ADU in the back and he's converting the garage to a 3rd ADU. He's on a single-family zoned lot. And the reason why the city of San Diego is letting him convert the garage to a 3rd ADU, even though he's on a single-family zoned lot, is because it is going to be deed restricted for moderate-income housing. So you can only charge so much and you have to work with the local housing commission to make sure that we're creating housing opportunities for moderate to low-income families. And in a high-cost-of-living area like San Diego, I think it's a really thoughtful approach to allow somebody like my client to expand his investment portfolio and do so in a way that sort of caps, you know, that offers the product to moderate to low-income housing. And it's great because he rents his main residence, the main house, he rents it out as much as economically feasible, the other unit as much as economically feasible. He has 2 opportunities to really push the envelope as an investor, and then builds the 3rd unit, which is still a phenomenal return for him, and it provides some, some housing to some people who might struggle to afford it otherwise.

Yeah, and usually those kind of lower moderate income programs are tied to how much income the person makes, and then how much rent you can charge. And there's usually some guidelines that are published that you have to be aware of, and they may change from time to time. So you've just gotta Make sure that you're complying, because if you don't and you say it's this and then you don't follow those guidelines, then you could lose, you know, some important rights associated with that. Or, you know, I guess there would be some kind of penalty or tax penalty or something that would be associated with it if you did it wrong.

Yeah. And the interesting thing about the bonus ADU program is it's only deed restricted for if you do moderate income, which is tenants up to 80% of the area median income. It's restricted to just those folks. If you do moderate income, it's deed restricted for 15 years. If you do— if you offer it as low-income housing, which is a, you know, lower income bracket requirement, it's only deed restricted for 10 years. So it's, it's, it's a nice program, but also for you investors out there who are thinking, oh my God, deed restricted, it's also, it's also not forever. So, you know, if you build a deed-restricted unit and rent it out, let's say you own it for you know, 6, 7, 8 years and then you go to sell it, there's going to be a lot of value there knowing that that deed restriction is about to sunset and you could maximize the rents. So, you know, I don't really have an opinion on whether this is right or wrong. It's, it's, it's something. And I think the thought process is, is, is cool.

Are you actually seeing entire neighborhoods where this is just rampant, you know, where it's like everybody's doing it?

Yeah, yeah, there are there are some some pockets, a couple of a couple of zip codes where this where it's like sort of a perfect storm of zoning regulations, specialty government zoning, the right quality of like you know large lots, well-positioned properties on the lots, demand for this type of rental housing, the ability for it to conform to the neighborhood. So even though it might be doable everywhere, might not necessarily be feasible. It might not be feasible to throw up a twelve-unit AD. in the middle of a quiet residential neighborhood where there's not a demand for that. But throwing up 12 units right next to San Diego State University where student housing is bursting at the seams, you'll rent those things out all day long. And so you're seeing it like in an area like that, you know, larger lots, a lot of room to build, plenty of rental demand. And it's sort of these large ADU formats conform to that neighborhood because that neighborhood has been sort of this You know, mini dorm college experience where, you know, 10 college kids cram into a house. That's kind of always been the style. And now they're just allowing you to do it with multiple different units and under these new rules. So yeah, some areas you're seeing it go more gangbusters than others.

Well, and, you know, I wonder how this is impacting negatively perhaps the character of certain neighborhoods. I mean, I'm sure there's some pushback and resistance in some places.

Oh yeah, just turn on the news. There's always there's always some microphone in some neighbor's face where it's like I had a view and now look at this ADU behind me. And again, my my my heart goes out to those people too. Look, I mean, go look at a picture of New York City in 1890. Go look at New York City 100 years ago, and it I'm sure all those people were pissed when the skyscrapers started going up. But at the end of the day, like it's progress, and people need somewhere to live. And I know there's a lot of a lot of NIMBYism. I think some of it is valid. I think some Some of it not so much. We all know that we need more housing. The cost of living here is insane. And, you know, people— there's the complaint about, you know, well, the cost of living is so high. Well, how do you reduce rents? How do you moderate the cost of housing, be it rental or purchase? It's with supply. It's a simple supply-demand equation. And so, you know, on one hand, it's housing is super expensive. It's really unaffordable to live here. It's like, okay, well, here's all this supply. Well, no, don't do it like that. Do it some other way. Everybody knows that we need more housing and that affordability is an issue here. But the minute you build supply next to their property, it's like, no, I didn't mean right there. I meant next to— I meant across town, right? So, you know, everybody, everybody has an opinion, and I don't know that I necessarily have one. I get people's complaints, but this is progress.

This is the law.

That's what people are doing.

Yeah, right. And hey, well, maybe you should build one too, right? I mean, yeah. Yeah, I feel, I feel bad for the people that do feel like, you know, gee, I lived in this quiet neighborhood for a long time and now there's a triplex next to me with, you know, and it's not, not what I thought I was buying. Yeah, there's always got to be a balance, right? There always has to be a balance between the, you know, the need and, you know, the detrimental effects that might result.

Yeah.

So how about, how does the presence of an ADU impact the resale value of a property?

Oh, that's a good question. I think it's going to depend on the style, the type, the location, the build quality, and the ADU's ability to sort of conform to the neighborhood, right? Because again, if you're building multiple ADUs in a place that might— doesn't have the rental demand, or maybe like the cohort of people that are buying in that neighborhood aren't interested in ADUs, it's just not an ADU-buying subset of people that are shopping a particular neighborhood, I think it could lag. If you build your ADU poorly, if it's ugly, if it's not, uh, if it's If it's not super private, I mean, I think that the answer to the resale value of an ADU depends on a whole bunch of factors, and it's really unique to every property. So it's one of those things: if you're thinking about building an ADU, call me or call a real estate agent. Call somebody who knows kind of the buyer and seller profile of the marketplace, because I think that'll depend on a lot. And then, of course, you know how you build it. But you know, I think in general, at a at a minimum, I think you build an ADU at a minimum. You're getting the cost back in most cases. Um, I think you're getting a substantial return on the investment, sort of like we discussed. You know, I'm building for $350 a foot and it's adding $1,000 a foot in value. Now that's sort of a unique situation being here by the beach specifically, um, but I think a lot of areas are going to offer you something like that where you build for $300 and it's worth $500, you build for $300, it's worth $700 a foot. Um, but I think your mileage is going to vary depending on those other factors that I mentioned. Okay.

What about homeowner association restrictions? Are they able to restrict ADUs, or is that superseded by the state and county laws?

That's a great question, and it's superseded by the state and county laws. So the HOA cannot be— the HOA cannot be more restrictive than the state. And you're starting to see it. There's a whole bunch of, you know, for people who know the San Diego area, you know, the new side of Chula Vista, Eastlake, Rolling Hills Ranch, Otay Ranch, those areas, you're actually starting to see some ADUs be built in some of those HOAs. HOA demand, you know, in those HOA-controlled areas, because yeah, the state, the state reigns supreme.

I can imagine that when the people that have been impacted by those fires in Los Angeles start to rebuild, that there's going to be a whole lot of ADUs being rebuilt in those, those areas where the houses burned.

Yeah, that'll be, that'll be interesting to see. I mean, in the Palisades, maybe not, because some of those higher-end areas, you know, maybe not with the ADUs. They tend to do, I I think bigger houses and more private palatial estates. Oh, I mean, maybe I take that back because a lot of them do have little guest houses and things like that. So yeah, I mean, it, it could be maybe take advantage of the laws that are there since you're rebuilding anyway. Let's say—

Probably just to be able to rebuild, you know, if you think about the affordability of rebuilding in those areas, you know, they may have to. Um, interesting. Um, yeah, I used to be a homeowner association litigation attorney in San Diego. So that's why I asked that question, because I'm sure there's, you know, armies of homeowner association people who are just up in arms over—

Yeah, that's my favorite, is seeing those people upset. The neighbors who get upset, like we talked about a minute ago, like, my heart goes out to those people. You buy a home, you think you have a view, or you think you're in a certain neighborhood, and then things start changing. I get that. Um, the HOA people are just angry about everything all the time and don't want you ever to do anything.

I don't really mind seeing I don't remind you in there, but I had my fair share of encounters with those people. Well, when I decided I didn't want to do litigation anymore, that kind of drove me away from it. So are there any creative or unique approaches to ADUs that you've seen investors use to maximize their profits?

Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, I think the most obvious one is is building, uh, you know, finding properties or building ADUs in existing structures, because then it's, it's halfway— like, you got a garage, it's halfway done for you. You just need to put in the sinks and the toilet. So I think existing structures. There are also some things coming down the pipe with, uh, modular construction— excuse me— where these homes are built like in a factory and they arrive on a truck and they put them together in one day. Um, so there are some architects— there's a local architect here who designed a really cool— it's called Tetra House. And it's— imagine you build a house like Tetris where it's these pieces that come together. And the cool thing about his approach is not only it's like sustainably designed and it's easy to build and you could put it up, you know, in a matter of days. But the coolest thing that he's doing is he's negotiated with the city where Tetra Houses are pre-approved with the city. So you're seeing the city and the county, these different jurisdictions come out with pre-approved plans where you can save on architect and engineers. And basically all you need to come up with all you need to come to the city, to the table with is a site plan, basically showing, you know, how this particular thing would fit on your lot specifically. And that's saving a lot of time and cost in architect and engineering. And then of course, if it's come, if the house comes in pieces on a truck and you just put it together, it saves us a ton of time. So if you're borrowing money and the interest rate is ticking every single day and you can build it in a matter of weeks instead of a matter of months, those are some of the things that we're seeing As far as like people getting creative, it tends to shorten the timeline a little bit. We're not really seeing it like eliminate the cost, though. The costs of those things are still pretty substantial. And, you know, the architect who built the Tetra House, you know, it's— he showed me a 600-square-foot prototype that cost $300 grand. So $500 a square foot, that's like on the high end of what these things typically cost. But his thing was like, look, as we scale this and it becomes more normal, you know, more You know, broadly applicable, then we hope the costs come down. So it'll be interesting to see in the future if the cost of those type of specialty things come down. But those are—

I'm curious to see what those look like. You know, the immediate image comes to mind that this is like some kind of geodesic dome or something in your pants.

And that's exactly what it looks like. It is. It's— that's exactly what it looks like. It's this dome with this like metal roof inside. It's actually— it's pretty cool, but it's very like Like modern and trendy looking. So it is not your typical, like, cute little backyard cottage. It is a giant metal dome. And, you know, I guess depending on your taste, that might be for you, it might not be. But, um, yeah, it's an interesting concept.

Yeah, that is an interesting concept. And so that begs the question of, you know, how much— even though the cities and counties have to get out of the way— how much intervention ability do they have just to make sure that things don't— aren't completely out of character with the neighborhood, you know? Is that— are you starting to see like, you know, completely uncharacteristic ADUs in the backyards of, uh, you know, traditional 3-bedroom, 2-bath homes?

Yes. And some of it, it's atrocious. Some of it is atrocious. These buildings they're just throwing up, um, and it does not comply, it does not conform to the style or taste of the neighborhood. And you're seeing these really funky designs and, you know, really you have like maybe a really narrow footprint, uh, building envelope that you can build. And so they go really tall, like these tall skinny buildings in a neighborhood peppered with single-family So the only design restrictions that I'm currently aware of in my part of the country is, you know, historic homes. If homes have a historic designation, then there's certain rules when you are, you know, building and expanding on a historic home. But yeah, with these ADUs, it seems to be the wild, wild west as far as design is concerned. And we have seen— I've seen some eyesores go up, and I've also seen some others that just blend right into the neighborhood. You can't even tell it's an ADU. It just looks like another house on the block. So I've seen it, you know, on both ends of the spectrum.

Well, and I think the caution there for the people that are, you know, the owners that are putting up these ADUs is you're not going to maximize resale if you've got an eyesore next to something that's just completely different. You know, if you're trying to make it blend, it's probably going to be worth more later on to somebody else who, you know, because a lot of people are just going to look at that and say, I'm not buying that thing, you know.

And that's a great point. And going back to what, you know, the question of, you know, how does the ADU impact resale? That's a great point as to how you think it might impact resale. Oh, I'm building, you know, I'm adding 1,200 more square feet. It should be worth X. But if it's an eyesore, doesn't conform to the neighborhood. One of the cool things about the property that I'm building my ADU on, I got a 3,200 square foot lot and I'm building a 3,200 square foot ADU. We're going 3 stories up, 4 foot setbacks. It's taking up the whole lot. But the thing is, is right now it's just a single family home. But next to me, 6 unit apartment building. Behind me, 8 unit apartment building. Across the street, 30 unit apartment building. So when I build this ADU and take up the whole lot, it's going to cause it to conform to the neighborhood. I will finally not be— my house is like the movie Up. Remember that movie where like the little— the old man doesn't want to sell his house and skyscrapers are next to him and he's got the little hut? That's me. I got my property is the little hut. And so when I build, it'll conform. Whereas I don't know that I would necessarily do this design and this scale and this scope in on a quiet cul-de-sac necessarily.

Right, right, right. All right. Well, just a little commercial break here. Just an FYI, if you don't already have a copy of one of my I'm sorry, I don't have one of them with me right now, but I have written 2 books. One's called How to Legally Raise Private Money. That's a beginner's guide for syndicators that have never raised capital before. The second one is the one that Brent's showing up right now, How to Raise Capital for Real Estate Legally. That one's more like a desktop reference. I recommend you all buy that one and keep it on your desk because every chapter table of contents is very comprehensive. So you can just flip to the chapter you want, read it like an encyclopedia, and know what you want to know about whether you're doing a blind pool fund, whether you want to do a fundraise, fund of funds, how to structure a syndicate, how to structure a development deal, all these things, and how to do those things with investors and how to legally raise that money. It's all in those books. The book that Brent showed is available on Audible. All of them are available through Amazon. The easiest way to find those books is type my full name, Kim Lisa Taylor, into Amazon, and both of my books will come So, you know, please do avail yourself of that. If you'd like a free digital copy, you can get that at our website. So just go to syndicationattorneys.com and get your free copy. And then if you decide you want the desktop, you can buy it at Amazon. And we've got a link to that at the website also. So syndicationattorneys.com for that. Let's go to some questions. We've got some questions. And if anybody else has questions, please either raise your hand or type them into the Q&A. Okay. So Brian asks, I'm curious to know if you know of anyone who has successfully applied for exemptions for non-compliant properties to add ADUs that are similarly non-compliant. And he specifically says, I have a waterfront home that was built in 1980. Shoreline setbacks have since been increased, and the best site plan for an ADU would require it to be within the setback. And I want to build the strongest case for the building permit/variance request.

Oh, that's a great question. In fact, unfortunately, no, I've had the exact opposite experience where my property as well, the front yard setback has changed since it was built. So my property is 15— my— the current structure is— the current structures, the garage and the home, are 15 feet from essentially the sidewalk. And apparently somewhere along the way, they changed the way they measure or Uh, uh, have outlined front yard setback. So my ADUs have to, um, set back further than the existing homes, the new square footage does. And I tried to fight it, and I'm talking 3 feet. The difference of mine was 3 feet. And we were— our original design, we were connecting it to the original house. So our argument to the city is we're just taking 3 feet, we're extending the front facade of the home, we're basically not changing anything of the existing, we're just extending it out. And the city was staunch. Um, setbacks floor area ratios, height requirements. These are things that the city does still have control over, that the state did not remove their ability to restrict these certain things. Building envelopes, those things are really challenging. I've never had any experience of anybody having success, and frankly, this— the city won't— wouldn't even have a conversation about it with me. So that's my experience. Your mileage may vary depending on what part of the state or country you're in. But no, man, my experience was the opposite. Not only were they not Yeah, okay.

Well, that's, that's unfortunate. I guess the only option you'd have in that case would be to tear down what's there, or maybe tear down enough of it that you can be within the new setback requirements, and then build the— rebuild what you have and build something adjacent, maybe?

So in my area, again, his mileage— Brian, your mileage may vary, but in my area, Anything that's new, anything that's built new, any new square footage. So if I tear down the existing house and just want to build it right back up, it's considered new and has to observe the setback. So anytime something is torn down, you don't, you don't get to put it back. It's grandfathered where it sits. I mean, I suppose you could do some repairs to it, but as far as tearing it down as part of a, you know, addition ADU construction project, they're very clear that Don't tear anything down that you expect to go back up because it's going to have to conform to whatever the requirements are today. And they've been very strict about that in my area.

All right. Well, sorry about that, Brian. Good luck with that one. But you may talk to a land use attorney in your area who has experience with ADUs and ask them if they've had any experience with that. Or, you know, they may just come back and say the same thing Brent just said and just said, you know, forget it, figure out something else a different way. Or tear down what you have and, you know, rebuild the whole thing with an ADU, all conforming to the new, to the new requirements. All right. Vince asked, why does the garage conversion that your existing client is doing fall under the bonus ADU program and not just considered the junior ADU?

Good question, because a junior ADU would have to be constructed within the existing square footage. So if he took the main house and built this ADU, a fully self-contained unit inside the main existing footprint, then it would be considered junior ADU. The garage is detached. So it's a detached backyard garage. And the reason why it's bonus ADU is because he's already got an ADU above the garage. So he's got existing main house, ADU above the garage. And so the garage conversion is the 3rd ADU. And on single-family home On a single-family zone, which is, is you need to go through the bonus ADU program to pull that off.

Okay. And, uh, someone said, hey, I came in late. What is an ADU? I'll turn it—

ADU stands for accessory dwelling unit, and it's a secondary housing unit built typically, um, in addition to an existing primary. Now, sometimes the primary and the ADU are built at the same time, but it's essentially a secondary housing unit, fully self-contained, that's used for Extended family, rental income. It's a it's a second unit on your property.

So Tom says, "Hey Brent, love your background. How you started? Question on how you engage with an HOA who has not updated their deed restrictions since the '70s. Only a shed at 350 square feet is allowed as of 1973. I've noticed folks adding on, but all are attached, not detached. Also, our HOA is somewhat hostile." To ADUs, wanting to preserve the neighborhood. I don't know if Texas has a state law on ADUs. Only think it's city level, and that's where I assume then Tom is in Texas. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah. So in California, the law is very clear: HOAs cannot prevent the construction of ADUs that comply with state law because it comes from the state. So Tom, if you're in Texas or some other state that's not California, unfortunately, I can't speak to too much experience in those other areas. But in my areas, the state of California. California, um, the levels of government— HOA is the, is the bottom of the totem pole. So if you have city or county regulations, my guess is— and this would— I'm going to refer you to an attorney on this. I am not one. My, my— if I was in your shoes, I would reach out to some, some attorneys in the area and say, hey, how do the laws apply here? But in the state of California, it's, it's pretty clear that, you know, HOAs cannot prevent the construction of ADUs as long as they comply with state law. So maybe, and hopefully for Um, as long as you're complying with, you know, your city or county laws, I imagine those would trump HOA. I don't think an HOA deed restriction, um, trumps city and county law. But again, I'm not an attorney. I would refer you to one. Um, but where I'm at in California, it's very clear. And there have been lawsuits, so there is now— I believe there is, you know, case precedent now where these HOAs have tried and very swiftly been struck down.

And, uh, when you're dealing with— if, if you get to the point where you need to Talk to an HOA attorney. There's 2 different types. There's those that represent the HOAs, and there's those that represent the people that live within the HOAs or the homeowners. So you're going to want to make sure that you get that second type, and they're a little fewer and farther between than the ones that will actually represent the HOAs, because the HOAs are a big moneymaker for them. And a lot of times, my experience was that a lot of times the— those attorneys tend to take over the HOAs and become very heavy enforcement-handed. Because they can generate a lot of fines and fees by sending a bunch of letters to people and, and being, you know, heavy on their enforcement. But there are a handful of— usually in every jurisdiction, there's a handful of HOA attorneys that represent the homeowners. So you want to make sure that you would get one of them. The other way is just call an HOA attorney and say, you know, which side do you usually represent? And when they say HOA, say, who's the person you hate the most that represents homeowners?

That's good.

And they'll, they'll probably blurt it out before they realize what they've done. Um, yeah, so there are those. So just, um, clarifying again that, you know, this is according to ChatGPT. I have not, uh, researched this independently. Um, uh, but California, Oregon, Maine, Connecticut, Washington, and New York have certain policies. Uh, so So some of them seem to be state level, some of them seem to be city level. So you've just got to, you know, look within those jurisdictions and maybe within your jurisdiction. And I'm sure that more states are going to be adding them just because of the fact that housing is becoming so unaffordable for, you know, the next generation that, you know, we're creating a nation of renters. And if you look on the internet, you'll see all kinds of stuff about how people are saying, look, I just can't afford this. You know, I don't see the benefit of it. They don't see the appreciation benefit because it's so far down the road and they're just trying to, you know, survive. So you may see a lot more people kind of embracing this as we go. So Phil raised his hand. And so, Phil, I'm gonna let you ask your question. Hey, Phil.

Okay. I am in Connecticut and I have built multiple units on top of existing units. With regard to the first caller and getting variances, sometimes if you go directly— I've gone for variances without an attorney. I think I've gotten at least 90% of all my variances approved first shot. One key here is to research the variances that have been approved and rejected by the Board over the last year Or 2, find something similar to yours that was approved and find out and make them make a case as to how yours is similar and reference that and make them make it difficult for them to say no, even though it does not comply to current zoning. The other thing you can do is most of the zoning boards appeals, they are concerned about people in the neighborhood complaining. Or not supporting what you're looking to do. At one point, I owned a single-family home. I bought another single-family home. I needed to get both properties zoned together for 8 total units. A lot of resistance from the town. I did some preliminary work, and what I did was I got letters from both of my neighbors next door, and one actually came. to the meeting, and both of them supplied signed notarized letters supporting what I was doing. The Zoning Board of Appeals could not refuse. So get along with your neighbors, get them to approve it, inform them that they may be able to do it in the future. So it's good to do this now, and that you will even help them as a contractor or as, as an advisor to help them get through their process. So those 2 techniques have gotten me to at least 90% maybe even 95% success rate on all of my variance requests.

Fantastic. Thanks for sharing. Well, that's, that's really cool. You know, and I think I've had a lot of experience. My prior profession was as an environmental consultant, and I was dealing with a lot of regulators. And one of the things I learned, whenever you're dealing with a regulator, code enforcement, any of that, is that they kind of make up stuff sometimes, you know, just because they don't like it and they'll be like, no, you can't do that. Right. So what I always learned to say was, you know, I really, really want to comply with the law and I want to make sure I'm doing 100% correct. Can you show me in the code where it says that?

Okay.

Next time they will back down.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

Many of these members, they're, they're not elected. They're volunteers. They think they have a lot more power than they really do. And once you get 2 people agreeing with that, I'm more powerful than you attitude, it's hard to turn that around. So it's good to get to know them ahead of time if you can. And Lisa, you— I'll come back, Kim. We met at the event in Nashville back in November. Thank you very much. My partner Jessica, who is on this Zoom call as well. We're looking at large properties and we're going to have at least 1 or 2 by the end of this year. And you, your company will be our SEC attorney for sure. So thank you for your guidance while we were there and met with you.

Fantastic. Thanks a lot, Phil. You have another minute to stay on? Usually we end right at noon, but we've got such great calls and questions. I hate to cut them off. Do you have another minute, Brett?

Yeah, yeah, I've got, I've got all the time you need.

Okay, great. Um, so, uh, yeah, Pam is asking, do you have a picture of one of your current ADUs that you could share? Uh, you know, if you can grab one quick, then that's fine. Um, if not, then maybe she can type her, uh, contact information in the chat. Um, Jeremiah, hey, thanks for sharing your story. It's super inspiring. Love your dream chaser attitude. I think he called himself a dream killer, right? Was that Yeah. What's the next big project you're chasing after this one? Are you just going to keep doing some ADUs or do you have some bigger fish in mind?

That's a great question. We're looking at a handful of different things. I think for me, it's I'll do the deal that makes sense. And a deal that makes sense means a deal that's in my wheelhouse of knowledge. And my wheelhouse of knowledge which is mostly residential type of real estate. I do have some experience and some partners who have some experience, a lot of experience in assisted living. So we're considering, you know, we're looking at the assisted living space, we're looking at larger multifamily. The only thing is, is those two— larger multifamily and assisted living is tough to get done in Southern California, and I'm not ready to go out of state just yet because I'm a single father of 2 girls. I have 50% custody of them, and I don't want to spend 50% of that time traveling. They're 9 and 11. And so to me, my main focus— a deal that makes sense to me is a deal that I can do in my backyard. And the deals that seem to make sense right now is this infill development, redevelopment, adding ADUs. Um, so yeah, we've got our eye on some other things. It's probably further out in the future, mostly because I want to chase my— if you know what I I'm chasing is time with my kids while I have it. This real estate thing is just, you know, my side hustle. My main hustle is, is being a dad to those 2 girls. So I think we're probably going to stay in our lane, although we are always open and analyzing. We're always open to partnerships as well. You know, I've got friends and colleagues peppered all over the country. I've got a buddy in Cleveland. I got a friend in Raleigh. You know, these real estate-related people. And, you know, I'm just another bozo. And if I could partner up with somebody, I'm always happy to You know, what's the old saying? I'd rather have half of a watermelon than a whole grape. So if we do go out of town, we're looking at partnerships on some bigger stuff. But me personally, as much as I can be in my backyard and be with my kids in between talking to contractors, that's kind of my goal for now.

Just a couple comments here from our audience. George says SB 1077, this law that requires the California Coastal Commission and the Department of Housing and Community Development to develop guidance Guidance for ADUs and junior ADUs in coastal areas aiming to streamline the approval process. So that might help Brian. And George says these are golden nuggets. And Phil says, of course, family first. But Phil did raise his hand. Phil, if you'd like to talk, I'd love to hear your question.

Actually, I raised it again by mistake. I was the one that commented about the variance approval.

Okay, very good.

All right, thank you.

All right, very good. Thank you all for coming. Brent, this was super amazing. I think everybody that was on the call and the people that listen to it afterwards are going to get a lot out of it. Why don't you give us your— tell us just before we do that, you said that you do consult with people who are doing their own ADUs, and tell us how that would work. Do you have like a consulting agreement, some kind of a lump sum coaching program, hourly agreement? What do you do?

Yeah, so I guess it depends on, it depends on the need. So the initial call is always free. I'm happy to hop on the call. The initial call is usually, you know, anywhere from 25 minutes to an hour, and I'm happy to spend that time just exploring your deal because if I can kill it in the first 30 minutes, I will, and that'll be free of charge. I hope not to do that, but again, I, I say that sort of in jest to protect you. So the initial call is typically free, and then I try to give you as much guidance as I can, as much free information as I can, and then if you can sort of do those initial feasibility steps yourself, because I'm all about, like you said, how do we manage the cost of these things up front? So I'll give you my perspective, I'll give you some guidance, and I'll hopefully give you some tools to help you maybe take those first few steps. And then we can discuss how much of that you're comfortable doing on your own, where I might be able to fill in. And we've done consulting agreements that is anything from an hourly rate, a flat fee, project management from beginning to end. And so there's a few different I guess payment structures or ways that we can structure our help based on exactly how much you think you need us. But we have a slew of options available.

So how can people get a hold of you?

I think if you type Brent the Broker in Google, Brent Edwards or Brent the Broker in San Diego, you'll see my Google page, my website, every— all my monikers under Brent the Broker. My investment arm is Sympathia Capital, but that's not nearly as public-facing as some of the other stuff.

Also your email address?

Yeah, brent@brentthebroker.com. If you go on Instagram, I'm @brentthebroker. Um, I think if you type in Brent the Broker on either Instagram or Google, and my email is brent@brentthebroker. If you want to call me, I'd be happy to give you my number.

If you want to grab that. Um, so, all right, we do have to run. Uh, thank you all for your participation. We love to have audience participation on these calls, and, uh, we're glad that you're all here. Brent, we're so glad that you were able to come and give this great helpful advice. And I hope you get some business out of this. And if anybody wants to raise capital, know how to structure deals with investors, or, you know, wants more information about our pre-syndication programs, we have a Capital Raiser Starter Program and also a Capital Raiser Accelerator Program. Both are available. If you want information about those, please go to our website. And you'll be able to schedule a call. If you want to talk to me directly, you can schedule a paid consult. If you want to talk to one of our staff, you can get a free consult. And we would love to hear from all of you. Make sure you get the book. The books are going to be an invaluable resource for you, and you can do that at syndicationattorneys.com. Thank you so much.