1 Hour Straight of Negotiation Gold with Kwame Christian and Codie Sanchez on The Big Deal Podcast

Hey everyone, it's Kwame and I am very excited to share something with you. So this weekend I'm partnering with Cody Sanchez for Main Street Millionaire live. It's a three day business buying event and it's happening September 19th through the 21st. So for those of you who don't know Coty, she is a New York Times best selling author and the leader of a movement to help real people gain real freedom through owning businesses and controlling their destiny. She has millions of followers across social platforms and has already helped thousands of people do exactly this. Finding ownership through creative deal making even without large amounts of money up front. And this event, Main Street Millionaire Live, is going to be the biggest business buying event in the country and thousands of people are already registered. And that is where I come in. This weekend I will be hosting a negotiation masterclass, breaking down the very best negotiation strategies and tactics you can use to get the best deal and start winning on your terms. These are the same strategies that I use with my highest profile clients, Google, Apple, Microsoft, NASA and the United States government and more. So if you're ready to start owning businesses, escaping the rat race and building your future, all of the information is in the Description. Use code KWAME100 to get a discount. And for today's episode, I was recently a guest on Cody's show, the Big Deal podcast and the episode turned out really, really great. And Cody generously allowed us to repost that episode right here. So all of you can hear that conversation about negotiat, deal making, leadership, entrepreneurship, and yes, relationships too. I know you're going to love it. So without further ado, here's my guest appearance with Cody Sanchez on the Big Deal podcast. The difference between being right and being persuasive. You can be as right as you want to be and it doesn't matter because the part of the brain that processes logically just isn't working.

Today we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better and take some power back in the way that you communicate. I am stealing all of the homework from Kwame Christian.

A lot of why these conversations go awry. We have to understand the the mechanics of memory. I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words. Memory is bad. When I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills.

What are the best comebacks to use when you need them, what you do.

Instead of telling them they're wrong you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. A lot of times we win arguments, but lose the relationship. Resentment builds up.

Hello, and welcome back to the Big Deal Podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez, and today we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better, maybe help you stop arguing so much, make more money when you do have discussions with people. We're going to take his years of lawmaking and negotiation experience, and we're going to bring it right to you so we can steal his 10,000 hours. Kwame, I want to start off with a personal question.

Let's do it.

What was like a pivotal moment in your life when you realized negotiation could change everything for the good or the bad?

For me, it was law school. That's where I really discovered that this was a skill, not a talent. And it was just eye opening for me because my origin story is a little bit different from most negotiation experts. I was a people pleaser for the majority of my life. And so from that point when I stepped into that class and I realized, wait a second, this is a skill, I could get better at it. It was really empowering. So for me, it was every time I had that tough conversation, it was a vote of confidence for the man that I ultimately want to become. But then I realized, though, that if I was feeling this way, other people were feeling this way, too. Lots of people living limited lives just because they didn't know that they had what it took to have the conversations. So that's really what put me on this direction.

So now when you argue with somebody, do you. Do you feel like what I feel like I'm sweaty, I'm nervous, my heart rate's racing. Or have you found ways where you can argue and feel at peace?

Well, it depends on the conversation, right? And first of all, I try not to argue because usually when it comes to argumentation in the real world, you know, for me as a lawyer, like, we argue for a living, right? But my wife has told me that when she describes me as a lawyer, it's not a compliment outside of the workplace, right? Nobody wants to be lawyer. Nobody likes to be on the other side of an argument. And when you think about it, even if you do win an argument, it comes at a cost. Usually the person just submits momentarily and they try to get you back later. It hurts the relationship. So when. But back to your original question. When I'm, like, in work, at work, when I'm negotiating business deals, I can stay pretty calm, pretty cool, because I know that if I get the deal. That's great. If I don't, I'll be fine. It's at home. That's when my skills disappear and things become hard. Because the relationship matters so much.

When you have been, you know, arguing or litigating or, you know, doing deal making, let's say, as a lawyer, what is the worst way you could start a conversation? What is the worst way that you see people start and do you have a specific moment where you're like, oh, this happened and I knew it was gonna go sideways? Yeah.

There's so many wrong ways to start these conversations. Usually I think a big part of it is starting with the fact that we believe that we're right. And here's the thing, we might actually be correct, but the way that we carry ourselves as we communicate, that might make that wrong. Right? And that's the thing, because there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. And if we start off by saying, I'm right because of this, what we are implying to them is that they are wrong. And so now it's not even about the thing anymore. It's about them asserting themselves in the conversation because they don't want to be dominated in the interaction. A lot of times we win arguments but lose the relationship. Resentment builds up, right? So you might get what you want in the moment, they might comply or submit in the moment, but then the whole time while they're complying, they are finding little sneaky ways to undermine you, even if it's subconscious. Right. Think about if somebody forces you to do something, you feel disrespected, you're not going to bring your best self to the table. And I don't think a lot of people take the time to appreciate those hidden costs of success in these conversations. We have to really take the time to make a meaningful connection. And sometimes that's the issue. It's not even the problem that brought this conversation to the table. It's the fact that there is a lack of connection and the person just wants to be seen, heard, and understood.

Such a good point. Because I think, you know, especially in. In relationships where you're with somebody, you know, married or in a partnership, I mean, I remember I was married previously, and I remember I have the. You talk about flight, fight or freeze. I have. I suppose it's flight. It's like, I don't want to deal with it. It's not necessarily running. It's just like, I know where this argument is going. I can almost see three steps into the Future, I'm not smart enough or skilled enough to get out of it. And so I almost am just going to shut down and either try to get away from the situation or try to not engage, because I can't figure out a way where it just doesn't turn it into an argument and nothing solves. And I think, you know, what happened, at least in that situation is like, that happened for so long that finally by the end, I was just like, I'm really tired. I'm just tired, you know, and, yeah, you win and I'll do it this way, and you're right and I'm wrong and I don't care anymore. And now, like, even worse than fighting is when you don't care, you know?

Yeah, it's like the fights can be really bad, but then when the fights stop, that can be even worse. And just the way that you describe that, sometimes we are hesitant to be that vulnerable and say that specifically, because a real powerful conversation could come from the fact that you could just say, hey, listen, we find ourselves constantly in these conversations. And I feel like I'm constantly getting rolled over in these conversations, and I don't feel respected, and I'm concerned about what this means for the relationship. Just start with that and say that. And a lot of times we're afraid of doing that. I call it commentating the conversation. So imagine if the conversation is like a. Like a sporting event, and then you have commentators that are up in the booth observing it just objectively. So what I like to do is I try to pull them out to that commentator's booth with me, like, hey, you see what's happening here? This isn't good, right? I think there's something we both could change in order to make this interaction better. And just being that honest and blunt can be really, really helpful.

You know, one of the other things that you talked about, you talk about commenting, which is really useful. You also talk about anchoring and how important that is. Can you explain what anchoring is and how to use it in an argument?

Yeah. So anchoring is a psychological bias, right? It's a principle that essentially, if we take it to the negotiation space, it's starting off the negotiation with the most aggressive request that we can reasonably justify. So here's why. And I have a fun study to share with you if you like this. I'm a nerd, so I love this. So they did this study where they broke people up into two groups. And so one group, they asked them a very simple question. They said, do you think Gandhi was older than or younger than 14 when he died. Dumb question, right? Okay, so they said older, duh, right. The next group, do you think he was older than or younger than 140 when he died? Dumb question, younger, right. Then they asked them the same final question. How old do you think he was when he died? And the group that was primed with 14 guessed on average 17 years younger than the group that was primed with 140. So it shows how even a nonsensical number can have a disproportionate impact on people's perspectives. So in negotiation, what we're doing with anchoring is we're setting a brand new reference, reference point for the entirety of the conversation. So what is the starting point? And every other deal, every other counter will be compared to that initial starting point. And so a lot of times people ask me, well, Kwame, who should make the first offer, me or the other side? It depends because of anchoring. So if I have as much information or more information, I'm always going to make the first offer because I know the power of anchoring. I'm not going to give that away to the other side. But if they know more than me and I know that, then I'm going to sit back, wait for their offer and then counter. Because every offer comes with information and then I can re anchor off of my counter.

That's such a good point because that is typically that adage in negotiation is never be the first one to put a price on the table, right? So if you're going to buy a business, don't do that. But I find the opposite for sellers of businesses. Because most small business owners don't really know what their business is worth exactly, and they want a bigger number. They have like some seven figure idea in their head, even if their business, business is only worth six figures. And so what we teach is what you should do instead is, you know, you really want to tell them not just what you would offer for their business, but say something like, I'd be curious your take. I typically say something like, well, you know, I'm really interested in your business. I'm so appreciative that you sat down to talk to me. I like to make sure that we're super transparent up front about what businesses trade for and how and why. So let me tell you how I think about it and you can see if, if that works for how you analyze your business. And so I'd say something like, typically, you know, as you know, if you go and look at Biz by seller. Some of the biggest sites out there for buying and selling businesses. Businesses trade for 2 to 3x the profits of the business. And so on average, we're dealing with 2 to 3x profits of the business. Now, there are some things that maneuver a little bit on both sides, but like that's industry average. Like you probably already know that. But I like to just set the precedent. What do you think about that?

See, I know what you're doing here, Cody. Yeah. So you just wanted to show off how good you were.

No, because if I'm bad, I want to know so you can help me do more deals.

This is textbook. It's textbook. It's perfect for a number of reasons. First of all, you're dropping the anchor. You're also being really respective respectful. So you're demonstrating that this is a collaborative approach. You're not trying to steamroll them, but you're also following the because test. So this is the way that you know whether or not your anchor is legit. So you need to be able to finish the sentence, I'm offering this because blank. And then you fill it in with objective and legitimate criteria. So objective, it comes from a third party. Legitimate, it's something that both parties would respect. And so you do that flawlessly while at the same, same time doing what a lot of negotiators miss when they're making that offer is you're making it clear that this is a collaborative approach. I respect you, you respect me. I want to hear from you. How do you feel about it? That's perfect.

It's really good, the frameworks that you use to explain, because I wouldn't have said, you know, one plus one equals two. And here's how the formula goes. What other formulas do you use in negotiating or frameworks where you're like, once you see this framework, you will understand how to negotiate this?

Yes. So for me, what I do with my podcast, negotiate anything. We've had 1600 episodes of the podcast. So my job is learning from the best negotiators and communicators in the world. So I wanted to see what everybody was saying but saying differently. So FBI agents, CIA agents, like all of these folks, what are they saying differently? So for me, I put it into this mental model I call compassionate curiosity. So it's a simple three step approach. First, we're going to assume that there's an emotional challenge. So we're going to acknowledge and validate the emotions. Then once the emotional temperature has dropped down, we're going to ask Questions. So it's getting curious with compassion. That's number two. And then number three is use joint problem solving. So it's not me versus you. It's you and me versus the problem. We're going to try to solve this together so you know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact. So you. It's not rigid. You just flow through it.

That's so good. So let's actually. This is so perfect because I wanted to get really tactical. I have all these questions I'm going to have, like, okay, Kwame, make me some money. Because I actually. I do think your bank account gets bigger based on a few things. The faster you move, the more risk you take, the more you learn from the risk you take and how well you can communicate.

Yes.

And, like, if you have those four things, plus you're willing to do hard things, I think it's a lot easier to make money. But probably hard conversations are one of the most difficult things to do. It's almost like we get this feeling that it might be physical. And so I wanted to start with a couple of really difficult ones. Like, in life, you are going to have people you don't like. Like, what do you say to someone when you don't like them to start a hard conversation?

So you say, listen, Cody. I don't like you listen.

Exactly. And, like, that's how I do it.

So I think it's. One of the things that happens is we unintentionally gaslight people into pretending that we don't know what happened in the past. Right. And so that causes resistance from the beginning of the conversation. If we've had beef in the past and I just come up and act like everything's okay, that's, like, disrespectful. Right. So what I want to do is, again with the framework. My acknowledgment is just. I'm going to clear the air. I'm just going to say, hey, listen, I know in the past we've had our challenges. And my goal in this conversation is to have a Just connect with you so we can try to get back on track. I'm not going to deny the reality that we both know exist. Right. I want to make it clear. My goal here is to work with you. I'm not trying to argue with you and say you were wrong or re litigate the past or anything things happen in the past. Let's leave it in the past and let's figure out what our future is going to be together. And that's one of the most powerful things you can do to make a conversation more productive, especially when there's been resentment and hurt in the past. Just focus on the grammatical tense of the conversation. Pain, resentment, frustration, judgment. All of that exists in the past. It's hard to be mad at something that hasn't happened yet. So what I like to do is I sacrifice the past to win the future. So the person might say, kwame, you did this, you did that. And I said, hey, listen, I know that I've made mistakes in the past, and what I want to do is get us back on track to make sure that we don't make those mistakes again. Considering that, what should we do now? Right. And so just keep it focused on the future.

That's fascinating because I think it seems scary to say the quiet part out loud first, but it's almost like deflating a balloon. Like, if you let the air out, then it's just hard to stay so coiled.

Yeah.

Which is so useful. You know, you brought up gaslighting, which is. You know, I have so many thoughts about it, because I think on the Internet, a lot of people are like, they gaslit me. They're a narcissist. And it's like, is everybody a gaslighting narcissist? Or is like, what's happening here? You've watched too many Instagrams telling you you're right all the time. But I do think, and I find it even in some of my arguments.

Yeah.

Like, and you would probably know this, but is there data or studies that show that when people fight, they can't remember what the other party said? Because I think sometimes there's gaslighting that's actually just like, you think that this just happened. I literally think this just happened. But we're in the same situation.

Yes. And I'll also say this. In order for us to understand a lot of why these conversations go awry, we have to understand the mechanics of memory. Right. I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words. Okay. Memory is bad. Your memory is horrible. Let me give you an example that happened just today. So we got a deal that came through an offer, and I was super excited about it. I was like, this is amazing. It just came into our lap. This is fantastic. Check this person out. Look how big they are. This is great. And then my head of sales said, if you recall a couple weeks ago, I told you I was working this, and this is her responding to me. I was like, I'm really sorry, bro. I did not mean to do this, and I promise you, it will certainly happen again. Because memory's bad, right? So a lot of times when we are accusing somebody of gaslighting, it might be unintentional. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible, but what we need to do is pay attention to patterns. If we are in a position where over and over and over again, we are finding ourselves in these weird miscommunications about what is real or what has occurred, that's a problem in itself. Right. And I think we have to take a step back and just recognize that it might be an accident, and then sometimes it might be intentional gaslighting. And if it's the latter, then the best thing you can do is not try to win that argument about what is real. Once you've identified a person as gaslighting or manipulative, you need to pull back and try to get yourself that freedom that you need. Because what they want is. Is more engagement. What they want are more opportunities to manipulate you, and you need to deprive them of those opportunities.

So is that how you handle gaslighting?

Yeah, I think it's. Think about. Think about it through the lens of negotiation. Right? Where does your power come from in a negotiation? It's your alternatives. So your best alternative to a negotiated agreement, your batna. And it's when you feel. When you feel the most powerless is when you don't have opportunities or alternatives. So in these relationships, when we are being gaslit or manipulated for some reason inside of ourselves, we feel like we need this person or relationship. So the key to break free isn't trying to convince them to be good people. The way to break free is to figure out what's inside of you that's keeping you connected to them and figuring out how you can get the strength to break free and live a life without them.

It's really good. What about. Let's say that we do want to end some arguments? What phrases would you use and what would you do to end an argument? Argument.

Ah. So walk away clean, or actually, do you want me to teach you how to dunk on people? I could do both.

Oh, let's do both. Okay, let's do one. Let's do one where you show us to walk away clean first, and then I want to talk about talking back better than Ari for Montourage. Fair.

Let's do it.

Okay.

So with the first one walking away clean, I think all we need to do is first just acknowledge progress. Right. And then let them Know that we're done. It's really quite simple. So if I'm seeing a conversation is starting to break down and we. We get to a point where things are falling apart. Part. Let's acknowledge, first of all, the human mind has a limited capacity for focus and attention. So back when I was a mediator, I would recognize after 60 to 90 minutes, people just started to fade. And when you start to fade, you start to get angry. You start to get, you know, a little bit upset. And so I said, we've accomplished everything that we could today. Let's come back and finish it another day, right? And so in these conversations, what I'll say is, I'll own it. I'm not going to say you're fading and falling apart.

Okay?

I'll just say, hey, Cody, I really appreciate this conversation. I think we accomplished a lot because. Because when we came into this conversation, it didn't seem like we were on the same page. We didn't understand each other very well. And now, even though we didn't accomplish everything, I still think we made progress. So how about this? Let's come back another day. Let's try to wrap this up another day. And if they still want to go back and forth, then I'll say, hey, if there's anything else that you want to say to me, I want to pay you the respect of listening, but I don't have anything more to add. I need to mull this over a little bit. And then the conversation ends when you say this.

That's great. So what if they keep coming? What if you're in an argument and you say that I don't want to tell you anything else, but they keep talking at you? Is there a way to get out of that kind of conversation?

Well, I would. In that. In that moment, I'll just say again, using compassionate curiosity, I'd say, Cody, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's something that you still want to accomplish here that hasn't been done. Can you help me to understand what it is that you still want to accomplish and put it back on them? Because here there are two options, right? Either there is something that was left unsaid, unsaid, and now you've given them the opportunity to say it. Or there's nothing and they just kind of want to hurt you. And I think we have to just recognize that sometimes as humans, we have inappropriate goals. They feel bad, and they're putting it on you. And by asking that question explicitly, you're helping them realize that for themselves. No, I don't have anything else to say. I'm just mad and I'm putting it on you. They're usually not going to come to that conclusion, but once you ask them and there's nothing there, then it usually helps them to back off.

That's a good point because you can just keep asking it. Is there something else? It seems like there's something else that you want to say and at some point they're going to even realize how repetitive they are.

Exactly. And a good thing to throw in. There is a summary. So it's. So based on what you said, this is a challenge. This is a challenge and you're upset about this. Is there anything in addition to that that you haven't already told me that you'd like me to know? Because a lot of times people just start to spiral and cycle over the things that are causing them pain and now the conversation is really unproductive.

It. Yeah, it's great. You guys, if you liked this episode, wait until you see what we are going to do live at MSM Live. You guys will love the negotiation segment that we are going to do together. If you haven't already signed up for this three day event on how to buy businesses, do deals, negotiate, you are going to want to do that. Make sure to click the link in the bio MSM Live. We only do it one time a year and you're going to want to be there. What about, you know, we're kind of talking about over explaining. How do you stop over explaining yourself in an argument?

Oh, this is good. Because here's the thing because when we are over explaining, what we're doing is we're giving away our power to the other side. When we are over explaining it means that we are seeking validation from somebody outside of ourselves and we are asking from them something that we are incapable of giving to ourselves. And so the key is to try to break free from that conversation and do some internal work. Why is it that I can't get what I need in this moment? Right. And I think about even in my relationship in times where for instance, my wife, she's in, she's a doctor. But I remember we had our first son in residency and it was tough because we got married, graduation day of undergrad. So we've been together all the time, spent a lot of time together. But then when she was in residency we had the baby and I was launching my company. It was very tough, we didn't have as much time and I found myself having these Conversations with her, these arguments because I had these needs. Needs because I was feeling lonely. Then I realized, wait a second, I've. I have a challenge with being alone. I cannot handle solitude. There's a difference between being enjoying solitude and being lonely. Right. And whenever I know, whenever I was by myself, I felt lonely, not experiencing solitude. So I recognized that what I needed to do was learn how to satisfy myself by spending time with myself and recognize that I am just as legitimate of a partner to spend time with as her. And so whenever we find ourselves over explaining, we have to recognize that we are giving away our power to other people, seeking something from them. And if we can find that source within ourselves now, we're going to be more empowered communicators.

Yeah. Is there some sort of trigger or reminder that you tell yourself when you hear yourself over explaining in an argument to stop yourself?

It's probably not very kind to say out loud. My internal voice can be very harsh sometimes.

Yeah.

But I think it's just recognizing, wait, like what are we doing here? What are we doing here? And you have to, you have to be self aware enough to recognize that in yourself. And one of the things that I've started to do that's helped me when it comes to these conversations in general, and I'm giving people the, the license to just watch trashy TV now is when you are watching reality TV and you see these conversations break down because they will, will, they will break down. I want you to start to pay attention to why they break down. What is happening? What was the inflection point that led to the conversation going left when it should have stayed right? What, what is it that this person seems to need that the other person cannot give them? Right? And it's. Sometimes it's so much easier to see that challenge in other people than it is to see it in ourselves. But once you start to get into that habit of identifying those challenges in other people, then it helps you to increase your own self awareness in the conversation.

I was listening actually to a friend of mine, Chris Williamson, talk about lately how he sometimes asks himself if you were. If your life was a TV show and a bunch of people were watching you, what would they be screaming at you to do right now that is so obvious to them but not obvious to you? And he was talking about it from more of a life experience perspective. What do you do next with your life? But it's almost interesting to think about it from a. It's almost like we're moving back. You talked about it like commenting how can you go up to the commentator's box? How can you look down on the field and say, this is very obvious for. For Kwame down here, but he can't see it because he's too close to it.

Yeah, well, something that I've done is. It's actually something I got from a client. So they said, whenever I'm in a tough conversation, I just ask myself, what would Kwame say in this conversation? And then I say that, and things go well. And I was like, damn, why don't I do that when I'm struggling? I. Now I say, what would I tell a client to? And it becomes very clear. Because here's the thing. It's really easy for us to give advice to other people, right? Think about some. So many people who give advice are not taking their own advice.

Totally.

Right? And so if I just take. Take a step back and act like I'm coaching myself and say, huh? What would you tell somebody else to do in this conversation? It becomes really clear, and it's. It's humbling, Cody. It's so humbling.

Now, you promised me that you had some responses, some comebacks. Like, what do you do to get it? Like, what you are are the best comebacks to use when you need them.

So here's the key. First of all, in effective negotiation and effective communication, the goal is to speak more, speak less than you listen, right? So I follow the 70, 30 rule. So I try to get the other side speaking 70% of the time. I'm only speaking 30% of the time. And so for me, if I really want to break somebody down, what I'll do is I'll start asking really pointed questions, not in a clearly leading way, but I want them to explain themselves. So if you're saying you believe this thing or you think this thing is right, I'll just say, okay, can you help me to understand how you came to that conclusion? Okay, good. All right. So it sounds like you believe this because of this reason. Right? Good. So I'm going to show them, hey, listen, I'm still listening to you, but I'm going to help them to build their case. And as they're building their case, I'm seeing the vulnerabilities, and then I'm going to ask a question that exposes a contradiction. Earlier you said this, but off, I've seen this as well. So can you help me to understand that discrepancy? Right. And so I don't even need to say anything, Cody. I just need to help them to recognize that they are off base. And the thing is, in these situations, I'm not trying to hurt them or dominate them in the conversation. I just want them to come off the point. And a lot of times, people don't recognize that a lot of their strongest beliefs are built on bias and really nothing else. It's vibes and nothing else. There's no substance to it. But they might be imposing their beliefs on you without recognizing that they don't even understand why they believe what they believe.

Belief.

And so what you do, instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. So you give them the injection of humility by helping them to realize that there's no substance behind their argument.

And the key to that is really just questions instead of statements.

Exactly.

So you are showing the gap each time by asking questions continuously, as opposed to what I do in arguments, which is like, you said this. Why did you say. You say that? Those are statements which just lead to. To more conflict.

Exactly. So think of it this way. I think about Newton's third law of motion, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So Kwame's first law of argumentation is every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. So every time you make a point, they're going to keep coming back at a point because you know they're not listening. It doesn't matter how right you are, Cody, they're not listening. So. And then let's bring it back to psychology. Let's talk about why this happens. Because you talked about fight, flight, or free. This is the amygdala, the limbic system activating. We want their frontal lobe to be activated. That's where rational thought comes from. So we have to recognize that there's an antagonistic relationship between the amygdala and the frontal lobe. So the more emotional they are, the less clearly they're thinking. The more clearly they're thinking, the less emotional they are. It's an either or proposition. So you can be as right as you want to be, and it doesn't matter because the part of the brain that processes logically just isn't working.

So good to know. What about we talked about how do you talk to somebody who doesn't or that you don't like? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you? What do you change?

Hmm. Ooh, that's a good one. That is a good one. Because first of all, we have to understand where that comes from. Sometimes it's vibe, like oil and water. We just. We don't. We're not compatible. Sometimes it's because of what happened in the past. Right. And so in those conversations, what I want to do is, is instead of just focusing on the actual argument or conflict, usually the problem comes long before that. It's a deficiency of trust. Right. Deficiency of likability. So when we think about it very, very basically, let's think about this fundamental rule of trust. Trust is gained in drips, but lost in buckets. You make a mistake, you lose all of it. But in order to build it up, it takes time. It takes repeated interactions. Think about this other thing. Have you ever had a situation where you heard a song, and the first time you hear a song, you're like, it's okay. And then you keep on hearing it over and over again. Then you're like, man, I vibe to this. I like this. Right? So in psychology, that's called the mere exposure effect. So the more you're exposed to a stimulus, as long as it's not negative, if it's neutral or positive, you'll start to like it more. And so the problem is, Cody, a lot of times with certain people, we only interact with them when there's a problem. We only interact with them when there's a problem. So you're not Cody, you're just bad news to them. Right. And so we just need to warm up the relationship and lower the stakes of each conversation. Let's find ways to interact with each other. Even if it's 2 minutes, 5 minutes, just a little positive, warm interaction. Those little things really matter.

What do you think the ratio is of negative interactions to positive interactions to make sure that you have that mere.

Exposure effect effect positively, Studies say it's five to one. Yeah. And I was. I was doing a coaching call earlier today, and I talked about that because they were talking about how hard it is to give feedback. I said, one of the reasons why it's so hard is because we don't give positive feedback. We don't do positive reinforcement. We don't tell people when we like them. And so the only time we have a conversation with them about performance or something that they did is when something bad happens. But we don't take the time to realize this fact. Usually if you're not bringing up anything about their performance is because they're performing well and you don't say anything about it. And so we have to take the time to give people real legitimate compliments when they perform well. And when you start to actually give a person a real compliment, like, it hits them in their heart, right? It hits them differently. Not like, oh, that was a good job. No, let's be specific. So you want an example? I'll give an example. So there was a. Actually, I think I was in your hometown. I think it was Boston, Texas. I was talking to an Uber driver. And so she was talking about the work that she does in the community, and she said, oh, I always thought by this age I would have kids, but I don't have kids. But I just really pour into my community. I try to give back as much as possible. I volunteer. So I was just hearing everything that she was saying, and then at the end of the. The ride, I just paused. I was like, you know what? You might not have achieved that one goal, but it seems like you actually have more children than you realize because of the impact that you've had.

She's crying.

She cried.

I'll be crying.

She just cried, you know, and so you have to take the time to listen, understand what people really, really want, and then tell them with specificity, let them know that you see them. Because a lot of the people today, they just live their life completely unseen.

So if you were going to put this into practice, what would you tell people to do with members of their team and with their loved ones on a more consistent basis? Are you, like, keeping track of POs to negative interactions? Like, what could people do right now, today to make better relationships knowing this kind of crazy framework?

Pick up your phone right now, Think of somebody that you care about, tell them why you appreciate them. That's it. No reason. No reason, no agenda. That's it. That's one really meaningful deposit in the relationship.

You know, it's funny you say that, because my husband does a great job of this. He will often, when he thinks of somebody, send them a text and just say, hey, I'm thinking about you, and here's why. You know, whatever real reason. And then say, by the way, that was all, like, no need to respond. Just wanted you to know you're on my mind.

Yes.

Which is also kind of a gift, too, because you're not saying, hey, you have to open this conversation. Just know that you're being thought of today.

That's it.

Which I thought was really beautiful.

Yes.

Let's go to the opposite side of this. Like, how do you expose bad behavior.

In communication in the way that they are communicating?

Yeah. So how do you, like, let's say right now you're in an office space, you know, you're with your coworkers and you know, you know that the way that they're operating is not basically unethic, maybe not what you want them to do. And you've maybe even talked to them about it before, but you kind of can't get them to see your side. You don't know how to point out that what they're doing is not correct or you feel that it's not correct. How do you expose that bad behavior and communicate it in a way that they could hear it?

Well, first to that challenge, one of the biggest problems is that you might be the only person who recognized that there is a person problem. So you have to be the person bringing the conversation. And then overthinking holds us back. And then the conversation almost seems irrelevant because we've overthought it so much that the behavior has passed far in the. In the rearview mirror. So first of all, we have to just give ourselves a shot clock for action. So when I see a problem, I say, okay, Kwame, yeah, you. You're about to start overthinking this. You're not going to do that now. You got 24 hours to respond that. That's what I tell myself. So it's first. It's an internal negotiation. That's the first thing. Then how we actually start the conversation. I like to use the FR framework of situation, impact, invitation. So situation. I'll describe the situation using naked facts. So facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment, or opinion. So no matter who you are, what you think you can say, yeah, that is what happened then. Impact. What did. What impact did it have on me? I'm going to personalize it, not globalize it. Because if I globalize it, then they could say, no, it didn't have that impact. No, I'm going to talk about me. And then invitation. When can we talk about it? Now, now or later? So let's say the person is constantly turning in reports late, and it's making it really tough for you. So what you'll say is, hey, Cody, I wanted to have a conversation with you because we needed the report on Monday, and then we didn't get it until Wednesday. And this made me want to reach out to you because when that happens, it makes it hard for me to do my job. So I wanted to chat with you to see what we could do to get back on track with the way that things are going. Right. Really simple to say, say hard in emotionality, but by making it so small, you can. And simple. And without over explaining as you're going through it, you can make it a little bit more palatable. Because our goal is to get into the conversation without unnecessary resistance.

Yeah. As opposed to probably what most of us do, which is like, the report is late again. Why didn't you send it, Susan? You're always late. Like, what do we have to do to change this next time? Right.

Yes, exactly. Because it starts off with an attack. Right. And then to add to that, you use the word why, which often triggers judgment, which almost guarantees that you're going to get a defensive response. Right. And so a lot of times we blame other people for their performance in these conversations, but we don't realize that a lot of times they are simply responding to the way that we address them. And how else would they respond in that type of situation? So we want to make sure that we are not. Not coming into the conversation with more friction than is required. And a lot of times the conversation is doomed from the get go simply because of how we approached it.

So if you want somebody to change a behavior, is it wrong to ask them why they did X thing you don't want them to do?

You want to understand Y, but you want to try to avoid using the word Y, because Y is associated with judgment. So any question that could start with why can be transitioned to what or how. So why did you do it? That way you could say, what led to that decision? Or how did you come to that conclusion? Right. Or what problem were you trying to solve? Those type of things. So you can still get the same information, because that's vital, but you want to do it in a way that's less triggering.

That's so fascinating. So that's just like, societally, we have realized that whenever anybody asks us that, it's judgment.

Oh, yeah. Think about when we were kids.

Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that, Kwame?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I'm answering something in class, the teacher's like, why do you think I was like. Sounds like I'm wrong, Professor. So why did you just tell me why I'm wrong?

Yeah, Well, I think that the. The, you know, some of what you've talked about is, like, how to be at peace while arguing.

Yes.

And arguing from a place of peace. Because if you already talked about it's really hard when you're. When you've sort of hijacked your amygdala and you're all emotionally charged to remember not to use the words why or to take a step back. So what do you do when you are really ma and charged in order to decharge the situation and have a conversation.

Yes. So first of all, in our preparation, we often take the time to prepare strategically, but we don't take the time to prepare emotionally, right? We just go in and say, I'm going to tell them this, I'm going to tell them that, I'm going to tell them this. Then they say the thing that hurts our feelings and we break down, right? We could have seen this coming. So I want to think through all of the things that could really upset me, that could really, like, throw me off my game and say, all right, if this happens, then I'll respond in this type of way. So I can essentially emotionally rehearse it. Kind of like an Olympian, right? With Michael Phelps one time when he won one of his 85 million gold medals, he was like the water got into his goggles. But it didn't really matter to him because he had mentally rehearsed it so many times. So when the conversation actually happens and the person says that thing in your mind, you're like, I knew that was going to happen. I knew you were going to say that. And it's not going to hurt me. I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of showing an emotional response in this situation. Now, even though we take the time to prepare, we will be humans and sometimes our humanity will show, unfortunately. And so in, especially if it's a business situation, Whitney has informed me that this does not look good. In a marital situation. I usually have a notepad, right? And so if somebody says something that triggers me or something like that, I have my little note notepad. And I'll just say, oh, that's a really good point. Cody, can you give me a second to take some notes here? I'll take some notes, Cody. Usually I'm not writing anything. I'm just pissed. I'm just like, oh, my God. And so I'm saying, all right, I'm running through compassionate curiosity internally because it was designed for not just the conversation with other people, but the conversation with yourself, to calm yourself down and get clarity. So I'll say, okay, what am I feeling? I'm feeling angry. Well, anger is typically a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else am I feeling? Well, I'm feeling disrespected. Okay, Then I'll get curious with self directed compassion. Why do I feel that way? Well, we've had this conversation a number of times and I don't know why she keeps on bringing this up. Right? And so I can do that in about 10 seconds. And then I can come back composed with a question to get the conversation back on track.

Yeah, I really like to take notes too, during arguments. Chris has also told me it's frowned upon marital arguments, but. And I think it's probably because they think that you're not listening.

Yeah.

But it is, is relatively hard to deregulate or down regulate without like physical symptoms. You know, you could like, like breathe out or like shake your hair, like, you know, and when I start to get agitated, I move a lot, you know, I start like, I'll start twitching or I'll like start of looking around or I'll like start biting my lip. And I now know sort of what my triggers are, so I can tell like, all right, I'm at a two. I'm out of three. Yeah, I'm at a four. But sometimes, especially with our closest people, it's hard to find a way to downregulate that isn't really telling and doesn't become a bigger trigger.

Yeah.

Have you found any way around that?

My, my move is my toes, so yeah, so it's like I need to release that tension. So I'll just kind of squinch my toes, like make it a tactile meditation again.

Yeah.

Make me feel a little bit more grounded. That's really helpful doing box breathing. I know your husband is former military too, so just taking the time to control my breathing. But what I do that's different is I prepare beforehand. So. Because if I don't prepare, who knows, maybe it looks like I'm hyperventilating or fuming in the moment. So I'd actually prepare in the mirror and I would practice this. Can I take a really slow deep breath and do box breathing without it being perceived? That too takes practice. And so I'm actually going to think through my emotional regulation tools before the conversation. I think about my four year old, right? He's been having some tantrums recently and I've been informed that's what four year olds tend to do. I take it personally. I'm like, I teach people to be calm and look at this kid. And so I realized I was trying to get him to do his deep breathing while he was angry. Then it hit me. The reason why he can't do it is because he's never practiced. I'm asking him to perform on game day with no practice sessions, so, so I just taught him this cue. I said, okay, let's pretend like you're blowing out a candle and I'll do this while he's happy. Right, right. And so now that he has reps of doing that without him having a tantrum, now he can do it during a tantrum. We need to treat ourselves the same way. Look, what do I look like when I'm taking my deep breaths? Can people see if I'm starting to really freak out if I'm taking notes and balling up my feet? And so now I might be able to. I still have that tension. It doesn't go away, but I have a better way of processing.

And now that's so useful. It's also useful because then it's not a tell in like a negotiation.

Exactly.

You know, it's one thing with. With, but I guess it's all a negotiation because even. Even in a marriage, when you kind of let the other person know you're frustrated, I think that that is also, like, they're like, why are you frustrated? I'm the frustrated one, you know, and there's a natural inclination for that. So I love that. I know who I'm sending this episode to. Chris, my husband. Also to every partner that I ever work with. Who are you guys sending this episode to? If you fe you got something out of this episode, the only way we grow is by you all sharing it. And I think, given what happened with the last episode, a bunch of you guys are starting to share this thing. So show somebody you love them, and you want them to be able to communicate better. You want them to be able to get what they want out of the world around them and share the show. A lot of people get told that they're too sensitive. You know, hey, you're too sensitive. Why are you worrying about this? You always take things the hard way, you know, why do you. Why are you taking it that way? I didn't mean it like that. What do you do when someone tells you you're being too sensitive, and how do you respond back to that?

Well, first of all, for the person saying, hey, you're being too sensitive, I just want them to know that's ineffective. Right. The person isn't like, oh, my gosh, I'm resilient. Now. That's just. That's not how it works right now. If you're in that on the receiving side, and I think this is something that is not done enough times because we're afraid of how it is perceived, or we are afraid of not being able to save face. It's just saying, I. I cannot have this conversation right now. I can't have this conversation right now. Right. I think in. In relationships, Especially we, our conversations are almost doomed from the start because when do we typically have our arguments with our spouse? It's like after 8 o', clock, 9 o', clock, you have decision fatigue, you're tired, you're grumpy, you had a lot of work to do. And so now you're saying, you know what? I'm going to have a really heavy emotional conversation and do it well, we're setting ourselves up for failure. So I think in those situations, when that happens, happens, just recognize you can give yourself permission to take a pause. Even if it's five minutes, just say, hey, right now. I, I cannot have this conversation. I know it's important. I can't. Just give me some time and I'll come back to you, right? And then maybe we negotiate when we have the conversation, not actually negotiate that thing. So I think giving yourself some time and space can help with that emotional regulation. I think another thing too, especially I've coached people who are criers. And the thing about crying is that the more you try to stop crying, the more you cry, right? And so when we have these behavior, just you have to have a better story for it because people are going to see it and then they're going to put their own narrative on it. They're going to frame it as weakness or fragility, whatever it happens to be. No, it's passion for me. Whatever it happens to be for you. Right. So before going into the conversation, you might just say, hey, listen, I want you to know that this is something I care deeply about. And when I care about something, sometimes tears come and I don't need any help. I'm okay, I can still have the conversation. I just want you to know where it's coming from, from. And so that helps you to manage your emotions because you're not fighting. Just not just the emotion, but also the feeling of judgment, but it also helps them to say, okay, they told me this is probably going to happen, that's fine. I'm not as threatened by it, right?

Because I think oftentimes if the other person starts crying, let's say I know this has happened to me previously, like if I've had a friend that cries a lot and at some point, if you're really good friends with them like I am with this person, you know, you're like, ah, you know, I just stop, I just go, oh, no, you're crying. Opt out. But actually that's not very mature either because then that means that I can never get across the thing that I need to Say to them. And so then resentment. Resentment builds. So your take would be when you start crying, you just let the person cry.

Yes. And. And. And. And also let them know that you're not judging them for crying, because it just weighs on them. They don't like that they're crying. They're trying to stop crying, which makes them cry more. And then they think that you're judging them too. Then it just kind of falls apart. So back when I was mediating, what I would do is I would give them the tissue, and they're like, I'm so sorry for crying. I said, listen, in this situation, it would honestly be odd if you weren't emotional. So it is completely okay. Take the time that you need. And that helped them to calm down because they knew they weren't being judged.

You must have crazy stories from when you mediated.

Great stories.

Is this. So you were mediating divorces? No. What were you mediating?

I am not that bold. This was just court cases, so litigation, lots of business, landlord, tenant, that type of st. And one of the things that was unique about the way that I mediated, and I got this compliment from one of my colleagues, too. She said, kwame, in my life, I have never heard anybody get people to laugh as much as you do in mediations. And it can work really well. But laughter and humor in tough conversations only works if you are funny. If you are not funny, don't do that. Everything works.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Crying while trying to fake laugh at somebody, That's a nightmare.

That was awful. It is awful.

That's crazy. One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is, like, in those. Let's say you're mediating something, and media. Mediating, are you in the same room? So, like, you're in the middle, and they're on both sides.

Great questions. No, they're in different rooms. Yeah. Because I found out, and this. This is kind of groundbreaking. When I put two people in a room that hate each other, bad things happen, you know? So what I would do is I would do shuttle the podcast diplomacy, and I'd be the. The mouthpiece for both of them. But as we started to get closer to an agreement, then I would bring them together, but again, I would negotiate their behavior. Like, listen, don't do this, don't do that. Let's get it together. Because I know that once I leave, these two people are going to have to coexist. They have a company to run. They have some kind of dispute that needs to be settled, and the relationship Continues. So I want to get some positive momentum of them being able to communicate with each other respectfully even when I'm not there. So toward the end, that's when I bring them together.

How do you manage when someone is speaking over you?

There are a few different ways, right. So first of all, we have to recognize emotionally and not emotionally. Personality wise extroverts are more likely to do this. They probably don't even recognize it's happening. So bringing awareness is going to be important. Right? And I think just saying, hey, by the way, I wasn't done making my point when, when you started speaking. So if, going forward, if you could just let me finish, that'd be really helpful. Just a simple statement like that, right? And then in those situations also, you probably don't feel heard as people are talking over you too. So when you recognize somebody is not listening, a simple thing you could do is just say, hey, listen. I feel like I'm having trouble getting my point across. Out of curiosity, what is it that you think my point is in this situation? And just put it on them. And so what ends up happening is they can't explain it. Of course. Now this is not when you dunk on them and say, haha, you're a jerk, you weren't listening, you just say, hey, okay, apologies, you mind if I have another shot at explaining it to you? And so in that situation they realize, oh, I thought I knew, but I don't know. So now is when I need to listen at this point. So a couple different things, but I think usually if somebody interrupts you, it might be a personality type of thing and it might be a power dominance type of thing. Just expect it to keep on happening and it will, it will start to diminish as you start to employ these techniques. But you have to make sure that you still have that resilience. And you, you don't get to the point where you're getting emotional because then you get thrown off your game. Right? Because if you just recognize its personality, then you don't take it as personally.

Are you able to detach and just think about this as a game now?

Oh yeah. So here's the way I think about it. So for me, it's not as much of these conversations as tools to get what I want, even though I do quite frequently. It's a game in terms of how calm can I say stay in this conversation? How self aware can I be when the person said that thing? Oh, I felt that flutter, I felt it, I caught it really fast. Where did that come from? Okay, yeah, I, now I understand what that means about me. What does that emotion mean about me? So I treat these conversations as meditations. They're tools of self awareness. So when somebody interrupts me, I say, okay, how did that make me feel when I'm not getting what I want? Oh, that might be an indication that in this conversation I feel a little bit powerless. If they're not giving me that thing and I feel that flutter of fear, then I'm saying, oh, that's some weakness inside of me that I need to work on in that moment. So it's not even about the outcome anymore. It's about learning more about myself through the process of these tough conversations.

That's really useful. It all starts with your frame. Now, you've helped fortune 500 CEOs and really big deals go through what is one brutal truth you wish you could tell every big time dealmaker that they probably don't already know or don't want to hear.

Ooh. That they don't want to hear. In my time doing my own negotiations, consulting on these deals, learning from the best in the business. With the podcast, we only need three core skills to be a great negotiator. After 1600 episodes of the podcast, that was the disappointing reality because I didn't want it either. I'm a, I'm a professor of this, right. So I teach at the law school. I, I like to be really tactical. I love to go deep into the tactics and the strategies. Right. But when push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills, listening, asking questions, and managing emotions. That's it. And when you think about a tactic, all a tactic is, is a combination of those three skills used at the right time, in the right moment, in the right way. That's it. And so a lot of times these are. These deal makers tend to become tactic hunters. I want to get the newest and best tactic and everything like that. But at the end of the day, listen, ask questions, manage emotions, yours and the other sides, and just create an intentional connection with the other side. That is what wins the day the majority of the time. And I think people aren't willing to just put down their barriers and connect human to human, especially when the deal gets really, really important and the numbers get really, really big. But if we remember that it just comes down to that human connection, that's the edge, then we can make these tough conversations a lot easier.

Have you had Chris Voss on your podcast.

Yes, I did. He was great.

He's great. So he's a buddy of mine, and I just went and saw his Broadway show, and it was so interesting because that through line was through all of it. He was talking about, you know, this. This guy that took a bunch of hostages in the Philippines and how he pulled him back from basically murdering these people and decapitating them and dropping their bodies everywhere. To at the end of the conversation saying to the negotiators, well, I'd work with you again. Thank you for this. And letting them go. And it wasn't some perfect little mind game that he played. It was, can I listen to them? Can I repeat back what's happening to them? Can I stay calm? That's so fascinating. Okay, let's end with this. Have you ever regretted leaning into a tough conversation?

Yes.

You have?

Yeah, for sure. And it was, for me, running a company, being a leader. I didn't fully understand my role for a very long time, Cody, because my identity was as a negotiator. But as a leader, I need to be a leader who happens to have negotiation skills, not a negotiator running a company. Here's why the distinction is so important, because as a negotiator, one of our mantras is separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. The person is not the problem. You can work with them to solve the problem. But for me, running a company, and I'm sure you've had to come to this conclusion yourself, yourself too, sometimes you work really hard, you try to be collaborative, you provide feedback, and then you realize, oh, the problem isn't outside of the person. The problem is the person in this very position right now. And I kept a lot of people on life support for way longer than I should have because I recognize that it was a little bit of that. That those echoes of people pleasing from my past, I recognized it was a lot of ego and hubris saying, no. They might have had trouble in the past, but I am so brilliant and persuasive that I can persuade them into functionality. And it caused way more harm than good. So that was something that was really. That I had to learn the hard way. Because sometimes after repeated conversations and leaning into the conversations, the continued conversations in itself is the problem.

It's very vulnerable to share because, you know, it's never fun letting somebody go. And it's also never fun being the person letting go. And you're right. I think a lot of times it's like the thing women do we're like, I could fix him. Like, girl, no, you can't. He's broken before. He's broken now. Get out of there. You know, and sometimes that's just okay.

Yes.

But it's a really good point, too. I mean, I remember one of my favorite bosses when I was struggling with a person on my team that wasn't working. And I remember him saying to me, I just want you to go around and ask the leaders at this company, the ones that you respect, only the ones that you respect, how many times they have let somebody go that they thought they really needed to let go and move on to the next thing. Have they regretted it?

Oh, my.

What do you think the answer is? Zero. Kwame. I never get zero as an. Like, zero is a crazy answer to have. And now I play this game where I go around and to events and. And I always ask them two questions. One is, if somebody came up to you as a business owner and asked you to sell your business at the right price and the right terms on the right day, would you say yes and obvious. Obviously, that's 100% of people, like, especially. And if they don't raise their hand, I always go, you're too soon in your company. You haven't doing this long enough. But the second question is, you know, have you ever let go of somebody and regretted it? And the wild part is, I. I've never had somebody raise their hand and listen. That could be confirmation bias. Certainly there's many reasons why. But I. We know. We know when we have to let go of somebody, and we have tried. And I don't even mean firing. It could mean let go of a relationship, let go of a partnership. And so I think that's really. That's really humbling to share. And not enough of us do that.

Yeah. Yeah. We have to learn the hard way sometimes, Cody.

Right. What would you leave people with who are scared to death of having difficult conversations and do not think they can get better?

Everything's practice. Everything's practice. If we just assume, especially in our career, if we continue to improve and have higher level opportunities and responsibilities, then the conversation we have today in terms of gravity is going to pale in comparison to the conversation we have next year. And so if you think about this conversation as an opportunity to build your skills and practice, then the thing that scares you the most should actually excite you. Because the more ridiculous they are, the more emotional they are, the tougher the conversation. It's like, great. This is a good rep. I'm getting stronger for this. Even if I don't get what I want in this conversation, I will build my skills in a way that puts me in a better position for the future. So if you have this just continuous learning mentality and recognize that every conversation is just practice for the next one, then it takes a little bit of pressure off of you and helps you to lean in. And the tough ones love it.

Yeah. Curiosity and practice better than a whiskey. Kwame, you're the man. Where should everyone go to follow you? This is so useful. I follow you on Instagram.

Thank you.

But tell people the handle that you want them to follow you on and where.

Yes. So Instagram and TikTok, it's Kwame negotiates. And then the podcast doesn't negotiate anything. But I'll break some news here. Now I'm actually going to rebrand it to the Kwame Christian show so I could talk about more topics, too.

So I like it. After 1600, you're like, well, there's only three, so I got to add some more.

Exactly.

I love that. Mommy, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.