Lisa Bilyeu: How to Silence Self-Doubt and Build Unstoppable Confidence

What's up everybody? Today's episode is special. Our guest today is my friend, Lisa Bilyeu. She's the co founder of the billion dollar company Quest Nutrition, co founder and president of Impact Theory, the best selling author of Radical Confidence, and the host of the empowering podcast Women of Impact. Lisa has built her entire life around one mission. Helping people break through self doubt, silence that inner critic and become the hero of their own story. And what I love about this is that she is not just talking. In theory, she has lived this. From shipping protein bars out of her living room to building one of the most influential brands in the world. Lisa's story is the definition of courage, grit and emotional mastery. In this conversation, we go deep. We talk about how you can manage the negative voice in your head, how to balance logic and intuition in business, and why your emotions don't have to control you unless you let them. Lisa also opens up about what it really takes to build confidence from the ground up, and why every big success starts off with one small, uncomfortable decision. So whether you're an entrepreneur, a leader, or just someone trying to live with more purpose and power, this episode is for you. Let's jump in. I realize that a lot of times we just hold ourselves back and the only thing that's between us and the life of our dreams is the willingness to just take a big swing, you know, and so this book and your story is like the epitome of what it is that we're trying to encapsulate with this. So this is great.

Thank you so much. Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, there's a quote that seems to be getting more real as I age. And that is entrepreneurship is a young person's game. And the truth is, is that when you take big swings, you learn lessons and you are very proud of those lessons. You've earned those lessons. The problem is sometimes they teach you the wrong lesson and it's not to swing again. And so going into Quest and building Quest, it was the naivety of the beginner. We just knew enough to start the company that we never should have started. And in that, we had the audacity to see it through, for it to become what it was. But a lot of us, I think, take the swings, miss, take the swing again and keep missing. And then realize maybe we shouldn't swing like that. And sometimes, unfortunately, it takes the messy swing to get to the goal. So anyway, I just came to mind, as you were saying about it, that the big swing, swing can be amazing and yet sometimes it can be detrimental.

You're so right. This reminds me of something my mom would say. We, I, I grew up playing tennis and we love watching tennis. And sometimes you would see a young upstart going and doing something incredible. And my mom, my mom would always say they're too young to be scared. They don't even know they, because they haven't been hit hard by life yet. And that's a, that's a really interesting dynamic though, because you're right, because sometimes you take the big swings you miss and then it's almost like learned helplessness. You say, well, you know what? This isn't for me. And how do you break through that?

I remind myself that it's true. And because you always feel in the moment that how you are feeling is right. And so when you think to yourself, I'm not going to take that big swing because when I did it, this happened, this is what I learned, this is what I remember. And so cool, I just won't try it. I just remind myself that that is the mindset, that is the exact trap. And so understanding the trap and then recognizing when you're in it allows me to then shake myself up and say, okay, well what can I do right now? That may be the earlier Lisa didn't see. The earlier Lisa couldn't have predicted. And so it is, it is sometimes important to remember that you have to get out of your own head like you said, and go back to your gut instincts. And let's just take YouTube for examp. I spent about a year, probably a year and a half ago now, just doing what I thought I should. It was all in my head. I was not attached to my heart. And when I actually started to see the goal move backwards, I wasn't helping more women, I was helping less women. I said, what am I showing up for? And in that reminder of why I was showing up, it reminded myself that just because I know the YouTube data, just because I know and understand YouTube algorithm, it doesn't mean that I should ignore my gut instead instincts. And so where is that place where I can listen to my gut instincts but still have the knowledge to understand and adapt when things go wrong. And so that has become part of my new evolution to say just because I think it, just because I've experienced it, it doesn't mean that I can't listen to my gut instinct that maybe something be saying something completely opposite. And when it comes to running a business, it's so freaking difficult. Because the truth is you have to be able to do Both, you have to be able to hold two companies, competing ideas in your head. One is that the data is a story and you cannot ignore it. And two, the fact that it is a story but you should ignore it is also the other part to it. So it's like the. The levers, which one are you going to pull right now to serve your bigger goal?

It's you. You encapsulated this perfectly. Because it. It almost feels like. I don't know. When you're balancing those competing thoughts in your mind, sometimes you say to yourself, I made a good decision the other day because I went from my gut. And then you can say, I made a little bit ago because I went on data. Like, how do I make decisions? Well, you have to figure out. You have to have that discernment to know what. What lever are you pulling at what time? And that can be really tough. And I feel. Do you feel like it gets easier?

No, I don't think it gets easier to make the decisions, but I think it becomes easier to bounce back. And because you realize it's not about you, you realize that if you're going to take a chance in life, you are going to fail, it doesn't mean that you are a failure. And so the knockbacks. And from an emotional, painful ego standpoint, it doesn't get better. Like, a failure is still a failure. I still get the dent to the ego. I still go, oh, my God, I can't believe that I did that. All of that still true. But it's very easy for me to go, oh, well. And then I just like, you know, then. Then start again. Whereas before I was like, but what are they going to say? What should I do? How should I do it? I can't make that failure again. I'm going to get mocked, you know, and so on and so forth. So the bounce back becomes easier, not the failure itself.

Okay, and so this is where you talk about the toughn element too, right? Where it's like, it still hurts, but you just have to get tougher and then be able to recover.

Yes, exactly. Because I tried the whole, like, don't let it bother you. Nothing bothers you. Like, it doesn't. And it's like, that wasn't true. Like, I have a very negative voice in my head that's telling me that I'm no good and no matter what I do, it is still there. I cannot ignore it. So that was one thing. And then also the yes, I am going to fall and I am going to fail. And so what am I going to what's the story? I tell myself about that. And now the story isn't that I'm a failure. The story is I was brave enough to try. And so the positioning of how you think about each thing is everything. Like, it absolutely changed my entire life from how I approach challenges, hurdles, and things like that.

This is good. And I'll tell you, that was one of the most validating parts of reading your book too. Because I think I like a lot of people, when we look at you, we say, all right, Lisa, incredibly confident. Your book is radical confidence. And it's like, there is there, there's. You have a bulletproof mind. And then to hear. To hear that you still have that voice, it was validating because I said, oh, I'm not broken. Because sometimes it really messed me up because I read the book the the Subtle Art of Not Giving a. And I was like, oh, yeah. I was like, that sounds so liberating. And then I continued living my life and I kept on giving. And I was like, is there something wrong with me? How do I stop caring? I can't do it.

Exactly. That was the thing. So then you start to think, is something wrong with me? Because other people are saying you shouldn't be bothered by it. But I really am bothered. And you know what I realized was, is that it's okay to be bothered. It's okay to want to be liked. It's okay to want to seek validation and approval. Like, it's actually okay. The problem is, do you let it get in your way in detriment of yourself, your self esteem and your goals? And that is what I focus on. It's like, okay, yes, I don't have a positive mindset and I do have a negative voice. And while everyone else is telling me to love myself, I really don't. And so how do I use that as empowerment? Because I can't change how I am. The fundamental. Like, it felt like the foundation of who I was. So how do I use that as. Like, I like to use the superhero language. How do I use that as my superpower? How can I use it? This is something good instead of something negative. And I just. The first step was actually owning it. Actually, I do care. And it's okay to care because this is actually what gives me the empathy in order for me to connect with my community. Okay, great. That's fantastic. That's a great story to tell. But now what are you going to do about it? And the truth is, if I let that insecurity hold me Back then, I really am letting it control me. But if I'm okay with knowing, okay, look, Lisa, if you take this next step forward, maybe they're going to be people that don't like you. Maybe they're going to be people that are upset with you. And while you're not going to like it, it is the right decision to make. And so I just removed the. Do I like it? Do I like the fact that people don't like me? Do I like the fact that, you know, I just accepted it? And that became one less battle I had to face. Now the only battle I had to face was my own insecurity. It wasn't, is everyone else going to like me?

That's so cool. That's so interesting. And I wanted to take a quick detour, Lisa, because I think this is just really cool, because when I went over to your place to record, I loved the comic books and all the shout outs to superhero stuff. Is this a uniquely you thing or is this a Tom thing, too? Do you.

So we both went to film school because we both love the power of storytelling. I think that it is a beautiful form where you can manipulate someone to feel amazing. Obviously, you can manipulate someone to feel badly. Just watch a horror film or a serial killer film and you're not going to feel great leaving that. But you can literally manipulate someone's emotions by the way, you cut the music, the pacing, the acting, all of that. And so the art form of filmmaking we both really loved. Now, the superhero element was very much individual. So for me, it really came about with me trying to build my confidence. So I was getting these offers. People were asking me to come and speak on stage, to get in front of the camera, and I was just petrified. Kwame. I was like, why on earth would I do that? That is literally inviting insecurity into my life. This isn't making me feel better. It's making me feel worse about myself. Because when I watch myself on camera, I sound squeaky. I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I was very, very critical, okay, number one, very critical of myself. But I really wanted to help women. So here I am saying I want to create a podcast, but I don't want to do YouTube channel because I didn't want to feel badly about myself. So in that moment, the truth was, is that I had to ask myself with no judgment, what was more important, my mission or my ego. Like, it was that honest that I had to say, the mission is to help women, which means I have to get in front of the camera. My ego is screaming at me, do not do it. You are terrible in front of the camera. People are going to mock you. And so it really came to that black and white. And when you can get and ask yourself a question, that's that hard, that black and white. There's nowhere to run. There's nowhere to escape. And that was the most beautiful gift I gave myself. Because in asking myself what's more important, your mission or your ego? And I'm here to say that no one can judge you for whatever decision you make. The only decision you can make is what is right for you. So in. Even though I chose my mission, I am not saying that people should. I'm saying you just need to make sure that you just. You make a decision that's right for you. And what I mean by that is, how do you feel about yourself when you are by yourself, period?

Oh.

How do you feel about yourself when you are by yourself? Are you proud or are you shameful? Like, what's that feeling? And when I know myself, this isn't about other people's opinions or validations, Kwame. I just know myself. And I know that if I was by myself late at night with no sound, no nothing to think, you know, nothing to hide from, I wouldn't have felt good about myself. That I put my ego before helping women. I just wouldn't have felt good about myself. So now you can imagine when I ask myself that hard question and I choose my mission now, I've got no place to run but to get in front of the camera. I've got no place to run. And so this now comes to. Okay, Lisa, you have to get in front of the camera. Now, how are you going to get in front of the camera? This then became a game plan that I laid out. And this is what I call radical confidence. It means that your confidence will become the byproduct of taking action, which means that you have to do it even when you don't feel good about yourself. Now, it's very easy to tell someone, oh, just do it anyway. Like, that really winds me up, because it's like, if you actually know what it felt like to be this insecure, just telling me, do it anyway won't help. That is the worst advice ever. So I said, instead of just blanket being, like, trying to be, like, really motivational, I was like, what does it actually take for me to get in front of the camera and feel good about myself? And so I just wrote a game plan, and one of my Favorite movies is Karate Kid. Wax on, wax off. Practice, practice, practice. So can I give myself the grace to keep focusing? Falling long enough so that I can keep getting back up so that I can get good enough to become competent. That then leads to confidence. So I said yes. So now what does that plan look like? And I just wrote it out and it was, I'm going to film myself on my iPhone and I'm going to watch it back, but I'm not going to post it. I'm then going to do it a few more times and then going to show my husband. I'm going to ask him to give me critical feedback with no emotion. I am then going to keep doing it, and I'm going to assess what I do right and what I do. Write wrong. Every time I see that I do something wrong, I'm going to come up with a plan of what I can do better. So for instance, I would watch my interviews and I'm like, lisa, you're terrible at opening an interview and closing an interview. You're great at the middle part. But to ask the opening question, I keep mumbling and messing up and the ending, I never know what to say. Great. If I can give myself that critical feedback with no, sorry, with utter grace. Now I go, cool. Now I know what I'm bad at. How do I get better? So the plan was I pre write my intros and I practice, practice, practice until I get on set my outros. I'm going to put on a whiteboard and I'm going to put it under my A camera. And I just need a tagline just to sign off. Okay, Lisa, what's your tagline? Be the hero of your own life. I was like, all right, that feels pretty good. I feel like I'm a bit of a superhero. Like Wonder Woman has to take on the world. So I wrote this tagline. Be the super. Be the hero of your own life. And I put it on the whiteboard and I put it under my A camera. So now I had somewhat of a cheat sheet of how I'm petrified actions. I'm going to take my assessment of my actions and then re. What's the word? Training on my actions and then getting better over time, improvement. So I then go from interviewing and then quickly turn to my A camera. I glance down, I see my exit line, and now I've got it. You practice that enough. Wax on, wax off. Just like when he goes to do the crane kick at the end, it becomes automatic. So over a period of like six months, of turning to this one tagline that I used to say. Then I just, like, I just remembered it. And over time, I got very comfortable in just spitting it out. And now I was no longer at my end, closing an interview. Okay, that was a very long way of me saying that's how I built my confidence. I just tried over and over and over again to find a way to improve without denting my ego, without feeling bad about myself. Now, the last piece. So that's kind of a bit of the superhero thing. The last piece is that then led to me hating watching myself. I don't know about you, Kwame, but this is a very common female thing where you walk past the mirror and you just insult yourself and it's in your head and you don't realize you're doing it. And it's so automatic. You don't think about it. Just anyone listening right now. Just take inventory for like a week. How often do you walk past a mirror and say something negative? My bats, my butt's flat, or my belly's flabby, or oh, my God, I got zits today. Write those down. I realize I was cruel and mean to myself every time I would see myself. So I said, okay, this is a problem. It's not helping me to my goal. What am I going to do differently? So I came up with another plan of breaking a habit that I know I have, right? I have a habit right now that I just keep insulting myself over and over in the mirror. I know I had to break the habit. How do you break a habit? You have to adopt a new habit. You have to, you know, interrupt it. Pattern interrupt it. Okay, how am I going to pattern interrupt it? Well, if I look at myself in the mirror, what am I going to do? That pattern interaction interrupts it. What if I buy a Wonder Woman necklace and I just put it around my neck and for 30 days. What if, because we learned about habits, what if I just repeat to myself for 30 days that I'm a badass like Wonder Woman? Would that make me more confident in front of the camera? I don't know. But I have to get over this petrifying feeling of getting in front of camera. So who knows? Take a stab at it, Lisa. So I go on Amazon, I buy this super cheap 30 buck Wonder Woman necklace, and for 30 days I kept putting it on. By the end, you better freaking believe I felt like a superhero. And that is how I ended up building part of my confidence to get in front of the camera. Now, if you look at me now, if people are watching, I have a Wonder Woman necklace that just happens to be 10 times bigger than my original one because it worked so well. My husband had this made for me, but I still have that cheapy $30. One Wonder Woman necklace. And it. That was part of how I built my confidence. I didn't just start one day and said, oh, my God, I can figure this out. Like, it was a stumble, a get up all along the way, but I never let anything, including my own negative mindset, get in the way of my goal. And it was because, going back to something I said earlier, I just made a decision that my mission was the most important thing. And so any hurdle that I came across, I was willing to combat it. I was willing to take a sledgehammer to it because I'd made the decision. I think a lot of people don't make the decision. You paint a picture of what you want, and then as you get on the journey, you realize it isn't what you think it was going to be. And then you fail. And then 10 years later, you beat yourself up over the fact that you never achieved something you said you were going to.

Oh, my goodness. There's so much to explore here, Lisa. Okay, well, the first thing that I want to address. Do you remember when we. When we did our interview? I remember you. You did the. The intro, and then you did the outro, and I looked back at the camera, I was like, how did. How did you do that? How did what? I was blown away. I was like, that was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. How did you. How did you do that? And now it's so cool to have. To have this conversation with you now and have. Having read the book, I'm saying every element of your success was earned through hard work. You recognize the things that you were good at, you maximize those strengths, and then you also recognize the gap between where you currently were and where you needed to get to in order to accomplish your mission. And then you worked really hard to do this. And it's really cool to see how you were able to take what at some point was a weakness and turn it into a massive strength. Because I've been on all these podcasts before. Like, that was exceptional, but again, it was because you work so hard to earn that confidence.

Yes. And it was dedication. Like, I. Mildly dyslexic, adhd. Like, all these things that I had growing up, I just thought something was wrong with me. And, you know, the. If you look at a lot of people who actually have achieved interesting things. And they usually have some form of. Like I would, you know, I'm not sure if it's considered disability, but you know, a shortcoming, if you will, because you just work hard enough to overcome it. And so the truth is that I really don't believe there's anything special about me except for the fact that I push myself to keep getting back up and I don't take my emotions as facts.

Oh, deeper. Go deeper on that.

I knew I was like, I just didn't hear. I just don't take them as facts. So let's say, for instance, you're hungry, you don't get to eat. And Kwame, your wife comes to you and she's bugging you about something. And then your kid comes to you and he's asking you a thousand questions and you feel like you've answered it, but he keeps asking you and you're just getting hungry and hungrier. How do you respond?

I stay quiet as long as I can because I knew, I know that I say is going to be a mistake.

Exactly. So if we can all, oh, just accept that hangry is a thing, you react in a way over something because of your body isn't functioning in a correct manner. I'm not a doctor, but you know, you're just not. And so if we all know that hanger is a thing that you get angry just because you're hungry, then we can accept that other emotions can have the same type of knock on effect and that it doesn't necessarily mean in that moment that the way you are perceiving it is accurate. Now it's really hard to remind yourself of that in that moment because it feels so real, right? Like when someone is disrespectful to you, it feels disrespectful, you feel offended and so you can react on that being offended. But who knows what emotions you're going through that day? Who knows as a woman what time in your cycle it is. You are going to be more sensitive to certain things in certain times. So if I just looked at all of my emotions as facts, I think it would lead me astray because I would make decisions based on how I felt. And what I realized is it's okay to feel your emotions. I don't dismiss them. So I'm not saying that I just let them sit for a while. And so if it's an angry or upset email, I'll write it and not send it yet. If it's something that I have, a hard thing that I have to tell my husband. And I'm really upset with him, like really upset. I know if I bring it up now, I'm going to say things in a way that's going to be dismissive towards him. I'm going to be, he's going to feel attacked. Because I have no calm soothingness to my tone right now. So when I'm, I can be that self aware, even in the moment of emotional turmoil, I'm able to create what I call emotional sobriety. And in that emotional sobriety, I can take a step back, think through it and then respond potentially the next day with clarity instead of emotions. And so, yeah, the emotional sobriety thing was very big for me in how I, how I show up to things, especially in running a business, because I feel so deeply that I take things deeply and I would respond with emotion. And the thing is, is that when you respond with emotion, whether it's in your relationship or when in business people start to dismiss you and you can fight that. I'm not bothering to fight it. I just go, it's true. And so the question is, what's your goal? If you're in a meeting, you don't want to be dismissed and don't do things that are going to dismiss you. Wow. And that means do not react on emotion.

Let's talk more about emotion because this is, this is critically important. I mean, it's a major driver of decision making which like we discussed, can be very problematic, but then they're also real in terms of how they feel. Feel. But there's a difference between facts and feelings. But in the moment, they feel exactly the same. So how did, how did you get on this initial journey of first developing this level of self awareness? Because that's where it starts.

I do have to give my husband credit because as we were starting Quest Nutrition, I had been a stay at home wife for eight years, so I had zero business experience. And so coming into a company that was growing at 57, 1,000%, like it was just growing so quickly, there was no time to really wallow. And so as we were starting the company, our house was put up for collateral. So because our house was put up for collateral, if the company fails, we lose our house. So now you can imagine you have emotional responses to vendors being mean to a guy, dismissing you to the UPS manager, treating you like garbage. Like you can have emotional responses to all of that. At the end of the day, if you don't get those packages delivered, you don't get to keep your house. So that became A very quick awakening to. You can be mad at this person. You can stand your ground. Because I used to love standing my ground, Kwame. I was like the person that would put a stake in it. And I was like, you are not crossing this with a ten foot pole. Like, I felt good. I felt confident about putting that stake in the ground because I felt like I had my own back. The problem is when it comes to. To business, that's all emotional. You're standing your ground under principle because they spoke to you a certain way. Okay? But going back to business, business doesn't care. Business doesn't care about how someone spoke to you. It cares about the math. Either you can pay your bills or you can't. Either you can pay your employees or you can't like it. It is that simple. And so every moment I started to get emotional over something, my husband would just basically call me on it and it's like, all right, well you can stay in your feelings or, or you can figure it out. And every time it was like, yeah, he's right. Like he's relying on me. The company was relying on me because I was in shipping. I was developing our shipping because we were growing so quickly and people just relying on me. And so every moment I got in my feelings, I wasn't coming up with a conclusion, I wasn't coming up with an answer, I wasn't coming up with a solution. Like, I just was stuck. And that became the realization that, huh, it interesting. I feel a lot and I really do believe that my feelings are true, but it doesn't matter when it comes to business. And then, look, the business for me was a means to then the mission. We were getting emails from people, you know, in the quest who were trying quest bars that had lost so much weight they now can have children. You know, we were getting emails from people at the time where it was actually a woman from the anorexic community. And she said, thank you for making me okay with calories again. Now, I was brought up with a mum that was borderline anorexic. So you can put now all of these things together. We're building this company. I'm very insecure. I'm trying to figure it out. I don't want to lose my house. And also, we're actually saving lives. Not just like pretending to save lives. We're getting now emails every day from people telling us that they were about to starve themselves to death. But now they found quests and they're okay to eat calories again. Like all of that becomes very real. So now you can imagine as we're building the company, as I'm looking at my emotions and I'm like, your emotions getting in your way from you doing this. It no longer is about your house anymore, Lisa. It's about saving lives. Now you can be emotional all you want, but are you actually getting, you know, are you going to. Going back to, are you okay? And do you feel good about yourself when you're by yourself? And so all of this kind of all came together in this somewhat whirlwind of me understanding that the. When I would manage my emotions, when I would manage to get emotional sobriety, it led to clarity of decisions. Those decisions led to executions. Those executions led to creating more products, building the company, helping more obese or anorexic people. And so it becomes this like, self prophecy type of loop that then encourages to keep going. And so the more you do it, the more you can joke about your emotions and then not take them seriously, the more you can give yourself grace when you have the emotions. So it really did become this reinforcing thing that this was the right way for me to approach life.

This makes a lot of sense. And I love the fact that we're starting from the inception of this because we can tell that it's not an accident that you've gotten to this point. It was a series of small decisions, lots of discipline and focus, and you got to this point. And again, a lot of times people look at people at your level and they say, okay, well, she was probably born this way. And I love the fact that you are humble enough to take us back to the beginnings and show us how you were built this way with intentionality. And when you think about all of the things that you have accomplished over the course of your life, which of those things do you think you are the most proud of?

My relationship with my husband, I don't even have to think about that, that say, you know, I'm very proud of the things I've achieved, especially my own evolution like that is way better than even the business stuff that's so internal. I used to be the young girl that hated the way she looks. So to think of how far I've come and how much I've worked on myself to be built, to be able to be proud at 46, I'm very, you know, glad and proud of that. But my relationship with my husband by far has been the biggest joy of my life. And you can take the company away, you can take the finances, you can take the businesses. You can take my YouTube channel. But the truth is, Kwame, like, I. I could be very happy in anything as long as I have that man by my side. And there have been a couple of moments where we had to look hard at, like, oh, we have to make a decision right now between business and. And relationship, or what are we going to choose? And every single time, neither of us hesitated and we said, well, love comes first. And so that has always been like my North Star, my grounding force.

Amazing. And that's something that came out and I love to see in the book, too, because I don't know I told you this. Whitney and I, we got married on graduation day from undergrad. So we've been together forever. And we always talk about the fact that the closeness that we have and the support that we have for each other were. That was the catalyst for where we are today. I cannot imagine where I would be without her, and vice versa. And what's interesting, I've noticed. Tell me if this is just me, but I feel like I've noticed a lot of high performers don't mention their spouse very much. And I wondered for you, because you made it a focal point of the book. What do you think holds other people back from talking about it so much? I don't know. I thought that was. It was. It was very noteworthy that I saw that in. In your book and I was interested in how rare that seemed.

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. So I'm not sure why people don't necessarily talk about it. It could be because sometimes some people don't even understand how they got where they got. So Tom and I very much understand the relationship dynamic, the sacrifices, the rules, the boundaries, all of the things that we put in place in order for us to succeed. I don't know if a lot of people can articulate it. That's not to say that me and Tom was special, but just we've been doing this for a long time now. I will say, though, that the most successful, there's like a stat, and I'm not exactly sure on the stat, but the most successful business people are the ones with the most stable home lives because you can go and take risks and, you know, like my husband, even now, like, the crazy stuff he does, he's built a video game. He spent. Spent millions of dollars doing that because he really wants to help kids, and he thinks video games is the place. So even though he's got these crazy ideas, he knows that even through failure, I will greet him with My arms wide open and I will love him just as much. And so I think that that's very important that you're able to build a safe and secure home life. So I've definitely seen a correlation between that and in successful business people. I'm not sure why people don't necessarily talk about it. Maybe it's just not as healthy as people or they want people to think. I'm not sure. For me, though, in Tom, nothing was by accident. And what I mean by that is our success wasn't luck. Our successes in our relationship success. We had many moments that could have been a make or break and that other couples would have broken and we didn't. And so it doesn't make us special. It just makes us very attentive to what's actually happening. We both happen to have very high eqs, so we're able to talk about our own emotions in a very intellectual manner without dismissing them, but by being able to articulate and put words to it. And I mean, think about any situation where I told my husband when he married me that I wanted four children. And now eight years in, we start Quest Nutrition, and I tell him, actually, I don't want want any children and I want to try this entrepreneurship thing along with by your side. You know, a lot of men may have left their wives for it. And again, I'm not actually even judging that because I think that if children was a very important part of why you got married, I would understand why that would break you. But for Tom, it wasn't. And so when you look at that moment, that could have been a pivotal moment for us, and it wasn't. Tom was working 120 hours a week to the point where he was just miserable to be around. And at one point I said, I love you more than life itself, but you've got to stop. I will never get in the way of your ambition, but now your ambition is getting in the way of our marriage. And so having, you know, the confidence to have to say the hard thing in that part where I was completely neglected, if I'm going to be honest, for over eight months, another wife may have left him, another wife may have left their partner who's willing to gamble the house away. So, like, there's all these things that I can even just say that they're pivotal, potential turning points for couples, but we just managed to get through it for multiple reasons. But number one, being high communicators and having growth mindset, I have to say that ultimately, at the end of the day I think it comes to those two things because we have to be able to communicate our thoughts and our feelings accurately for the other person to understand. And then we also have to be willing to hear the hard thing in order to be able to change. And if one of you is dogged, dogmatic in that you're, you're always wrong and I'm always right and you're just not willing to change now, you end up not growing at all. So I think that Those are the two things that @ least for me and Tom, allowed us to have such a long lasting relationship. But again, I want to make sure that it is very heard that we've had moments of. This is a pivotal, this is a make or break for us. And then just recently, because of my hormones, I'm going into perimenopause and I've changed as what my needs, my wants, my desires. And so the navigation of that. When my husband has known my me for, you know, 25 years and now I'm changing, it's somewhat a new wife, you know, an evolved wife, I like to say. But now we're having to navigate new ways and new things. So it's a constant evolution. But ultimately it came to. We both agreed that we want to be happily married for the rest of our lives. Like we just pinky swore that, that that's the goal. So now if we at least aligned on the goal. Now we just have to discuss if, if you will, the strategy to get there. And so that's what we've been evolved every time is. Okay, well, this strategy no longer works. What new strategy are we going to use in order to live the rest of our lives happy? And I know I kind of diverted a little from your question, but that's at least how we've been able to navigate it through successes and failures.

No, there was no diversion. That was perfect. Because I really like the synthesis of, of communication and growth mindset as the, as the two keys. Because as you said that I kept on going over it, I was like, this is my lawyer mind. I'm like, there has to be something else. What?

Think about your life, Kwame. What else?

I thought about it. You're absolutely right. Because it's not just the you making sure that you have a growth mindset. Your partner also has to have a growth mindset as well. But also you have to believe in each other's growth mindsets too. Because if you have a fixed mindset about their growth mindset.

Yeah, yeah.

Say to yourself, why would I even have this conversation because this person is incapable of change.

Exactly. And so, Billy, then look, it can be just as toxic the other way where you really believe the person's going to change and they never change. And now you're just in this cycle of emotional, somewhat abuse because you're believing something that is never going to come into fruition. And so you keep holding, holding on. You keep holding on to hope. You keep holding on and forgiving all the errors and mistakes that that person makes because you so believe that they have the ability to change. Therefore, it means they will change even if you have the ability. Doesn't mean that you're going to be willing to.

And that goes into the. Something that we explored on our interview on, on my show. On your show, which was like the, the toxic relationships too. Because I, I recognize that the point that you made about the relationship being essentially the, the foundation of everything. You're absolutely right. Because when I know for me, when Whitney and I are off, nothing else really matters to me. It just like nothing else matters, it doesn't matter how successful I am. It just. I still feel like a loser because Whitney's the goal. And if you have a really strong, supportive partner, it really does give you that feeling of safety that allows you to, to take bigger swings and try new things. Because you say, well, rock bottom isn't that low as long as I have this person by my side. But then the opposite is also true. If you have somebody who's toxic, who's bringing you down, you might have all the skills in the world, but you won't be able to achieve because that foundational element of your life is pulling you in the wrong direction.

Yeah, exactly. And Tom was the person that was actually helping me fly. He was helping me spread my wings and really, you know, go out there and take charge chances. And that allowed me going back to the thing on. You know, a lot of successful people have the most secure home lives because you don't mind taking the risk when someone else believes in you. And if you fail, you know that they're not going to mock you, they're not going to ridicule you. They're actually going to. The phrase I love is they're going to create a soft place for you to land. And ultimately I think that's what everybody wants in a relationship. And so the question is, are you with somebody who's willing and capable to do that?

So it's the soft place to land that hit. It's hard because I was thinking there were some business troubles earlier in the year, and I was, like, hesitant to tell Whitney, and then I told her, and she's like, kwame, I was with you before all of this, so why would I have any problem if we have, like, a hard season? You know that.

What was your answer, if you don't mind me asking? Why do you worry even though you knew that she was there before?

Well, I think it was. For me, it wasn't her judgment that I was concerned about. It was mine, you know, and it was projection, if I'm being honest, because I was like, man, your judgment about.

How she would think about you or your judgment.

I think it was my judgment of myself and the assumption that when she got that information and recognized it was a tough season, then she would judge me in the same way, even though there was no history of judging my performance in anything. Right. That. That. It's so funny looking back, because it illogical, but it goes back to what we were talking about. It was very emotional, and those emotions could feel real. And I was saying, oh, man, I thought I was past this point in business, and I thought that I was like, we wouldn't have these types of questions or concerns or difficulties. But I said, man, I'm. I was feeling like a loser at the time. And so I was afraid to share because I was. I personally was feeling shame. Whitney's like, yeah, I mean, that happens. You're trying to do something hard. Business is very hard to do. And when you go through those hard times, she's like, well, I just. It'll be like any other hard time you've ever had, because your pattern is things go well, you have successes, then you have a little hiccup, and then you take that super personally, and then you. And then you win much bigger as a direct result of that thing. And so she's like, I know it'll be like a hard couple of months, I guess, but, you know, the kids won't notice. Nobody else looking from the outside would notice. It's only you who's noticing. And as a result, the business will build and you'll be better for it. That's your pattern. That's what you always do. I was like, why? Why? I should have told you this before. Now I feel better.

Yeah. Well, the thing is, is that's probably part of your superpower, though, right? Is actually feeling that in order to push yourself to come out of it. And that's. That's one thing that I think people want to. And I get it. It freaking sucks. Even now, like, this. This Late in the game that I've been in business, like, it still freaking sucks. But the truth is, is that you have to feel the feel in. In my opinion, in order to go. This sucks so badly. I don't want to be here again. And so if I don't want to be here again, what am I going to do? Well, it means I have to work. Wake up earlier today. It means I have to work longer today. It means I have to push through this thing today. It's like, all of those things are real. And so even though we want to bypass. Bypass the suckiness, it's the suckiness that actually gets you to then get on the path of, you know, execution. And so part of maybe what you need to do, Kwame, is exactly that, is feel the shame. And I hate to say it, because it sucks, but sometimes that is part of it. And so I battle, like, again, going back to the two competing ideas. It's like, it really sucks. And when it happens, I don't like it. But then at the same time, I'm like, but, you know, Lisa, you actually need to go through this in order to get shake. You know, shaken awake. And so I try to just remind myself in that. And it does feel a little better. But at the end of the day, nothing will take the suckiness away. And that is just.

You're so right. Because I had to think about it. Every. Every massive success was right after a valley. Every peak was right after a valley, every single time. And the thing. The thing that I. I really don't like this about myself, but it's true. I just don't really grow that much when things are easy. And it's like, oh, there's a part of me. And this is the dueling mentality, too. There's a part of me that says, man, this has been a hustle. It's been hard from school, everything. It's just working hard. I wish I could turn it off. I wish I could turn that ambitious part of me off sometimes, Lisa, and just be, like, peaceful and just like, okay. And then. Then what's interesting is that every once in a while, I'll hit this point where I'm like, oh, this is a coasting point. And I could coast for a few months, but then there's something inside of me that just always wants more. But it's hard for me to reach for more from a position of everything feeling good, because there's been another part of me that's been craving comfort for so long. But you're right. It's almost like these difficult times awaken the sleeping giant in me. That turns into something different and what I've started to like. You said you have to feel the suckiness of this. But one thing that's been helping me is thinking about it from a narrative perspective where I say, okay, cool. So this is the part of the story where the hero is down in the dumps. He feels bad. That's how I feel right now. Okay, cool. So if this is a story, how would you want your character to handle this situation? Is this the part where your character, the. The four year old comes into the room and then you freak out? No, that's not what you want your character to do. Your character can still show up for his family and do the right thing while still feeling bad. Wouldn't that be a better story for your future self to enjoy? And so when I start to think about it narratively, that brings a little bit of playfulness and helps me to detach a little bit. Even though it is very tough. I say, okay, this is just. This is character development, and it just makes for a better story.

Oh, my God. Kwame, honestly. So when we first met, there was definitely a connection. Was like, I feel like we've known each other for so long. That story that you just told, you probably haven't got to this part of my book because you said that there was a couple of chapters you hadn't read. So towards the end, I share a very personal story. It's like in the last chapter, the second to last chapter, and it's the most embarrassing story. Kwame, I will just give you the spoiler alert now in case people, people don't read it. But in the height of quest, I've had a lot of gut issues, a lot of health issues, and it was very difficult for me to even eat out. Like, it just, it was so bad. But it's our anniversary. Height a quest. Tom's like, babe, I want to take you out. I want to treat you. So we go to cut, which is the Beverly Wilshire Hotel. I'm in shorts in a tank top. And to cut a very long story store short, I needed to go to the restroom urgently. The restroom was very far. I didn't make it. Just a yes. And I'm in shorts and a tank top and I leave my phone and Tom has no idea. At the Beverly Wilshire Hotel. Kwame. Okay, so yes, you could tell by the heart in your face. Our anniversary. So imagine I'm trying to be sexy. I've got knee high Boots on. I don't have a sweater. I got a tank top. I'm rushing to the restroom. I don't make it. And now I don't have a phone to call Tom to tell him to save me. So. So I'm like, what do I do? Like, literally, what do I do? And I go into the restroom and I clean up, and it's number. It's not number one. So I clean up. Yes, even worse. And again, it's still hard for me to even talk about this story because it's so traumatizing. But the great news is, why am I bringing it out now on your podcast? I decided to write about it because in that moment, I managed to clean up. I literally run into the. The. The restaurant in the hotel, and I literally said to Tom, grab your bag. We have to leave right now. And I just ran outside. So he comes out and he's like, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? I just burst into tears, and I. I'm like, give me your jacket. So I burst into tears, and I'm feeling like a big loser. I'm like, I'm supposed to be sexy. It's my anniversary. I'm supposed to be a grown woman. Like, all of this is coming flooding in. I've got the height of embarrassment. We've literally. Our company, just a billion dollar company, and I'm literally crapping my pants over here. I'm so in shame and embarrassment and just. Oh, God, I feel so bad. And in that moment, I was like, all right, this story is either the story that you bury in the desert and it never sees the light of day. I will swear Tom to secrecy. He will never say another word, and I will. I'll pretend this never happened. That was option number one. But I was like, yeah, it will still stay with me. It will haunt me in my nightmares. But it is an option. Then option number two is I actually know that one day I'm going to tell this story in public. Okay, if I'm going to tell this story in public, what do I want the end of the story to be? It can't be that you just had a meltdown later.

Oh, that's a good way to think about it. Okay, so. So what did. What did your character do next?

So in real time, I'm in the car, I'm crying. I'm feeling terrible. My hubby's like, baby, what do you want to do? He's driving home, and so I'm having this thought. What do you want the Story to be. And I'm like, I want the story to be that I was able to spin it, that this became one of the most romantic evenings possible. All right. How the hell do you make this moment, this evening, romantic? So. So for number one goal, right, I want to make this super romantic. So I was like, how do you do that now? Strategy. I was like, all right. So I wiped my tears, and I'm like, all right, babe. And I just literally changed my tone immediately. I was like, all right, babe, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna go home, I'm gonna shower, we're gonna put on matching onesies, and we're gonna cozy up. We're gonna get whatever food you want. Because right now, I can't eat anything that may be popcorn. So we feel like we're bonding, and then we'll put on the most romantic movie we both love. And he was like, all right, that's a deal. So we got home, we put on matching onesies, he got a little bowl of popcorn. Popcorn. And we put on the notebook. Now, Kwame, let me tell you, I've been married now for 23 years. That's the one anniversary I remember. Oh. Now let me tell you why, though. Apart from it being like, a horrifying story. You know what I remember? That my husband didn't bat an eye. That through sickness and in health, to death to us part. My husband didn't bat an eye. He loved me just as much. He supported me just as much. He literally just took care of me. And when I think about why marriage, long term commitment, life commitment, it is so that this person, that when you fall to your knees, metaphorically, someone's giving you a soft place to land. And of all the anniversaries, of all the stories I can think of, that was one of those moments that my husband proved that he's with me till death do us part. Sink or swim, we go together. And so apart from it. So it taught me lessons. It gave me the best takeaway from my marriage with my husband. And it taught me that I can pattern interrupt my emotions whenever I like. So it encouraged me to be able to do it more. And then I swore to myself that one day I will tell this story to help people. And so when I was writing my book, while I was utterly embarrassed, as I'm typing, I literally just wrote the whole story out. And then my husband read it, and he's like, babe, you're not saying what actually happened? He's like. Because I was, like, trying to be nuanced, right? I'm like, and I'm running to the toilet and I don't make it. He's like, nope. He's like, you promised yourself, babe, that you were going to own this story so that you never feel shame again. He's like, you got to own it. And so that's when I just wrote the actual words. And it became so kind of coming back to what you were saying earlier. It comes back, comes back to when you write a character, like it is so much in your control. And when you are thinking about storytelling, what do you want that story to be? So whatever someone's going through right now as they're listening to this podcast, you have an opportunity to tell the story you want. You just have to preempt it. And so, A, how you, what story? How are you going to pivot? B, when do you recognize that this is a story that can become the one that haunts you or the one that actually uplifts you? And then how do you, over time, refine it so that you can become emotionally sober enough that when these things happen that you're able to emotionally regulate and then act in accordance?

So good. First of all, the thing I keep when I, when I, I, I, I, I listened to Impact Theory for a while, and so I, I was, I knew Tom in that way. But then hearing you talk about him on the show, hearing you read him, like, tom is so fucking awesome, man. He's so cool. That, that's one major takeaway. But also, I go, let's go back to what you said about the superhero stories. How the director with the way that everything's cut, the music, everything, you can manipulate somebody's emotions. What it sounds like is that you've become the director of your own mind and emotions. And so you just, you can shift it. And in order to put yourself in the right mental and emotional state for you to accomplish your mission, at least, so powerful.

Thank you. And look, I want to make sure people know this has taken years and years and years in me getting here, but you've got to start. So, like you said, I use things as tools. So I experiment, I test, I see how I feel when I do things. So, for instance, I used to be the person. I had a very unhealthy relationship with. Food. I mentioned earlier that my mum was borderline anorexic growing up. And so I had a very unhealthy relationship. I was the person running the treadmill, counting every calorie, trying to be as skinny as possible. And I just. It just wrecked my body. I wasn't healthy. And so going back to how do I feel? I started on this path of, how do I. What are the things I can do and how do I feel when I do them? And I got to lifting weights. I tried yoga. I tried all these different things. I got to lifting weights, and I was like, whoa, this feels good. And so I was like, cool, I'm going to start doing this every day. And I realized that my working hours now was the start to me feeling like a badass at the beginning of the day. So I was like, great. This makes me feel great. I tried it in the morning, I tried it in the evening. I realized I loved working out in the mornings. It got me started. I tried a bunch of hairstyles. I tried a bunch of jewelry. The reason why I ended up, like, kind of with my stuff that you see is I tried little dainty things. I was like, I don't feel like I want to be powerful because I felt so unpowerful, like, so insecure. I was like, I just want to feel good. So I tried a bunch of things. And the more. The bigger my jewelry got, the more like, ah, I feel like I'm suiting up. I'm putting my armor on for the day. And so because I tested a bunch of things, I got to the, oh, I love big watches, I love big jewelry. So I started to do that as my morning routine as I was suiting up. So everything I do became tools in my tool belt. To know when I want to feel a certain way, what tool am I going to get? Because sometimes I want to feel soft. I don't want to be in business. I don't want to feel like a toughner. I want to feel like a complete softy and have my husband hold me in the most sweet, romantic, you know, emotional way. Okay, well, if I've just suited up, like, I'm going to war every day, how do I unsuit so I can be soft and be the nurturing wife that I also want to be as well as the badass in business. Going back to another disbelief that we were told that you can't be both. And I just realized, oh, I can hold two of kinds competing ideas in my head. I can be a freaking badass at business. No one can cross me. And also, I can be a complete softy and a total worse around my husband and, you know, like, feel like I just want to be cuddled. And so finding what those tools were. So the jewelry was the suit up and then the suit down was actually the un. A. The undoing of the jewelry, but also fabric. I realized that I'm very attracted. And the fabric makes a difference when I feel it on my skin, believe it or not. So I realized when I was wearing fluffy pajamas, I would feel like a young kid again, and I would be like. I would let all the, like, the seriousness and the masculinity roll off me. So I was like, oh, interesting. Okay, well, what fluffy things can I get? And so I now have. You're gonna laugh, Kwame, but you know, I'm telling the truth. I've got fluffy Wonder Woman pajamas. And so at the end of the day, I take off my jewelry and I put on my pajamas so that when my husband finishes work, I'm now in super soft, sweet wife mode. Everything is deliberate. All of these tools that I tell you has been evolution, has been me figuring out how I feel when I do these things and then how I use them to enhance what I'm trying to get to. And that all starts with a goal and then a strategy and then experiment.

My mind is blown. Lisa, this makes so much sense because that was one thing I admired about you, because your style was all. Always. It was so unique. There's no other. Unless there's somebody who saw you and is trying to copy you. There's nobody who has your style. And I. I was wondering if that was kind of like a character you created for your show. But then now, knowing you like that, I know this is who you are. And I was like, but there. How do you get there? Because it's so you. But everything was done intentionally. And I love how you. You've essentially. And this. This goes back to your. Your gut health thing, too, because you've turned your. Your life, who you are, into your own personal experiment where you've given yourself the license to say, okay, I'm going to try this. I'm going to see how it feels, and I'm going to be 100% honest with how I feel about this. And sometimes you were kind of surprised by what you discovered about yourself, but then you also gave yourself license to be yourself. That. It's just so fascinating, and I think there's a lot we can learn about this. And now this is my first time saying this at. I have this.

We.

I have this dragon onesie.

Let's go. Next time you come over, Kwame, we've got to do a onesie.

So funny. And it's this. I. I think it's so cool, because You. You say, what do I want to feel? What helps me feel that way? Sometimes it's environment, sometimes it's a person, sometimes it's clothing, whatever it is, and then giving your license to be yourself. Oh, my goodness, this is so good. So good.

Oh, thank you.

Before you go, I want to give Simone an opportunity I always want. He. He's listened to every podcast episode, and he'll never say this, but he. He has the top Spanish negotiation podcast. And so I always give him an opportunity to come in and ask a question, because he's always, always listening. Simone, what you got?

Let's go.

My question is about resilience and motivation.

Okay.

Because we can feel motivated to do something, but after a big, big failure that maybe we have invested so much time and money and we fail, we see that the thing that we thought it was a big success is just failed. Have you had this experience of a big, big failure, something that you thought it was going to be a success? And how did you recover from the that?

Oh, I've had a lot of failures, so there are just too many to list. But, yes, I definitely have. And I think it goes back to the idea of what. What is more important to you, your mission or your ego? Because when you fail, it is purely an ego thing. Is like, this sucks. This makes me a failure. This makes me feel bad. This makes me feel like I've wasted time, fill in the blank. And ultimately, it's like if. If you just don't want to get back up and you don't want to start again, to be honest, and that's your decision. But if you say that you actually care about what you're building, that you actually care about the mission, then the only option is to get back up. And that just means you have to find ways to soothe how you feel about yourself. So, for me, there are certain things that I do. So, for instance, I know that I can get lost in my emotions. And so in those moments, I give myself a time frame. So depending on how epic the failure is, then dictates how much time frame I give it. So, for instance, if it's quite a big failure, it may take you two weeks to even think about. Even think about getting back up. And in that moment, I will give myself the grace to say, right now, you're not even in a position, because to your point, right when you fail, you're like, I can't even think about getting back up. It's so painful. So in those situations, I say, okay, give yourself two weeks in two Weeks, you're going to cry, whatever you fancy doing. I'm just going to give you my list. Cry, watch sad movies, listen to sad songs, put Celine Dion on repeat, tell yourself that you're terrible, right? Like all these things, you're gonna let yourself do all of that, Lisa, in two weeks. But on this date, give yourself a date and then give yourself an action to do. Because you can't just say you're gonna start again. That, that you just push that, right? Start again. What does even start again mean? I would say on this date, I am going to send 10 emails to X, Y, whatever the thing is, but actually put in something actionable so you can't hide from it. So now that you've gone, you've licked your wound, you now have something actionable that you can do. And maybe you do that for a week and you say, okay, for the first week that I get back on the horse, I'm just going to send 10 emails a day. I'm going to finish at 2pm Right? Because again, getting all the way back on may be just too much for you. Ultimately, it's about writing out the action plan for you to follow so that you don't get caught up in the emotions. And then the other part is absolutely making sure that you give yourself grace to lick your wounds. Now look, I'm saying that from what I need and what I want, my husband would hate that advice. I'm just going to be honest. He would hate the advice I just gave you. My husband, he would tell himself very negative things. He would say, come on, you promised your wife that you wouldn't back down. You promised. You're right. But he would use guilt in himself to propel him to move forward because that is what motivates him without bringing him down. That's the important factor. So he can do that and it won't bring him down. If I do that and I just talk the way he does, I will. Will make things worse, not better. Excuse me, I will make things worse, not better. And so the advice I just gave is absolutely for someone that finds it hard to immediately get back up, but again, there's so many different ways that you can do it and trying a bunch of things and knowing yourself will be the one that eventually ends up working that you'll keep repeating. But if I put in the action things again, removing the emotion, I'm able to now incrementally get back up and take the first steps.

This is so interesting, the advice that you just gave, because the. There's only one other person that I've heard give that same advice, and that was Lauren Williams. You remember Lauren. She's. She was an Olympian, the sprinter. She's actually, I think, the only person to win a gold medal in the Summer Olympics and the Winter Olympics. And so that was one of her pieces of advice. She said, like, whenever I lose or have a hardship, she's like, I give myself an opportunity to just have a pity party. Just let it. Just feel it. And I think that that's so smart, but also very strong for somebody to be ambitious and also just say, I feel bad, and I'm going to allow myself to feel bad, but I'm going to schedule my recovery. I love that.

Yeah. And tell the people in your life, by the way, that right now you're in feeling bad mode. Because what I don't want is for my husband to try and do me a pick me up. I'm like, no, right now I'm in. I'm in the wallow mode. I've given myself permission to wallow. So I don't want you to fix it. I don't want you to ask me if I'm okay. Like, I just need a couple of days or whatever. So being even able to articulate it, there's a weird confidence around it. Like, in saying it, it kind of then gives you a bit more confidence because you're like, yeah, I'm just going to own that this sucked. And there's a. It's just like. I'm not even sure what psychology would say about that, but it's a very interesting encouragement that when you say it, you feel less bad about it.

Oh, that's so good. I love it. I love it. Lisa, this every time we talk, every single time before you go, okay, what is the for. For the person who's listening, for them to become the superhero of their life, what is one little action step that they can take today?

You have to set a goal and make it concrete. So the goal is the what, the what is it the what, the how much and by when. So because you're going to try and run anything else I say, you're just going to give yourself an excuse. But if you actually write out the goal, the what, the how much and what by when. Now you've got your own cheat sheet, and now you just have to go, okay, what am I going to do? In order to try and get there? So you can get in your emotions, you can get into the. All the reasons why you shouldn't try something or why you can't try something or why someone else thinks you shouldn't do something. But ultimately, it's like it's your life. You make the decision, and the only way to get out of it is to give yourself some form of blueprint so that you don't get held up in your emotions. And I know that was a bit of a little long answer, but.

But I think that that last part is so important by when? Because if you don't have a deadline, then you're always on time.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, that's so true. That's a good one.