Gaslighting at Work: How to Spot Manipulation and Reclaim Your Power

Our guest is Farah Harris, a psychotherapist speaker and the author of the Color of Emotional Intelligence. She's also a LinkedIn learning instructor and a respected voice on workplace well being. But today we have a bit of a different angle. We're not just talking to the expert with all the titles. We're talking to the human behind them. Farah opens up about her own painful experience of being gaslighted and manipulated by someone she hired and how it shook her confidence as a leader, when what she learned in that moment will change the way you think about boundaries, empathy and power in negotiation. If you've ever walked away from a conversation feeling drained, confused, or doubting yourself, this episode will help you spot the red flags early so you can reclaim your power. Farah, welcome back.

It's great to be back.

Yes, it's great to have you. And so let's, let's start off by just talking about where you were when we last had you on the podcast. And now what's changed since the book has come out and talk about LinkedIn learning as well. Lots of good, good stuff happening.

Yeah, lots of good things. It's been a while and I had come on pre book launch and so the book has launched. It became an Amazon international bestseller, which is exciting, especially being a first time author and since was able to narrate the audiobook, there have been great institutions and colleges that have been using my book for their curriculum and business. And there's the LinkedIn learning course which is helping folks recognize that you can't do DEI without the ei, which is emotional intelligence. And so it has broadened my reach. So it's been great to be able to not only provide support and partner with, you know, Fortune 500 organizations, but also with the nonprofits and educational spaces. So being able to support educators, teachers From K to 12 and higher learning to understand how important emotional intelligence is, even in their practice of educating students, especially our young children, because they model us. And so the better we are as adults to practice emotional intelligence, the better our future will be because our children will be modeling the same.

Love it. Yeah, it's so right. And I realize when you start to think about emotional intelligence, just like any other type of intelligence, the earlier you begin, the better. And then also just as a skill as well, we have to learn it early and it starts to become more habitual. And then also you started to recently tackled a challenge that I think a lot of listen, a lot of leaders can relate to but doesn't get a lot of shine so this would be a fun way to kind of change the direction of how the podcast typically. Typically goes by telling. Telling the story that went a little bit viral on LinkedIn recently.

Yeah. So for those who are on LinkedIn, maybe you've recognized that the algorithm has been a bit wonky, and maybe your posts aren't getting as much views or impressions. And so that has been my experience, at least. And so I decided after some time that I was going to start sharing a little bit of an experience I had as a business owner with a not so great hire that I thought was amazing and then turned out to not be so amazing. And just sharing a little bit of, you know, that resignation story really started to resonate. So, you know, all of a sudden, you know, I'm getting tens of thousands of impressions and people are commenting and people are DMing and sharing how. Yes, we often talk about toxic leadership and how leaders need to show up better to create psychologically safe spaces for their employees, how they need to have higher eq. But we don't always talk about what happens when you have a hire that actually creates a lack of psychological safety for the leader and for the team. And little did I know that, unfortunately, people have been experiencing this not only as business owners, but as colleagues and peers and managers within organizations. So I think I struck a nerve, and I'm excited to actually share more details of my story and see where it takes us.

Yeah, I agree, first of all, with the algorithm shifts. It's been challenging for a lot of people who post consistently, but if it bleeds, it leads, as they say in the news. So sharing this story, this is what hit for people. So let's not let the listeners wait too much longer. So what happened?

Oh, so I was working with the business strategist. We realized, you know, I needed to grow my team, get an assistant, worked on a. What you call it, a, A. A profile. And I was having some interviews, and when I tell you, Kwame, they were not good, I was like, okay, this is. This is disappointing. And then came this one candidate, and she was bright, intelligent. She was a bit older. She was getting her. Her mba, I believe. And she also had this interest and curiosity about emotional intelligence. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, I think I haven't found my va. I think I found someone who could help ghost write some things, create some content. Yeah. So it didn't turn out that way. It worked out. Till it didn't, unfortunately. She was really trying to impress me, but couldn't get my voice and every single time I was like, well, let's pivot. You know, I think we're hitting some bottlenecks. Let's shift. She just was not following direction and also lacked self awareness. And we know that is a key component of emotional intelligence. And it got so bad that, you know, we had some conflict between my business strategist and this new hire that I actually had to correct my business strategist because she created a psychologically unsafe space based on some communication that was not led with emotional intelligence. So I had to clean up that mess, you know, clean up aisle nine, handle that. A new hire appreciated. She was so grateful. And then I think she started to realize that because we were trying to hold her accountable for the work that we were asking her to do and, and it didn't allow her to, quote, unquote, have the freedom she wanted. She started to weaponize the words, my teachings, the work that I do against me, and ended up sending me a seven page resignation letter with screenshots and graphs and all the things. Yes. I was like, what? What is happening here? And unfortunately, even used race as one of her reasons why she thought that things had shifted in our relationship. And I think when I reflect back, we had great conversation and I think she actually viewed me as a friend and there were some boundaries that were being crossed. And then when she realized, oh, you're not my buddy, and I had to remind her, I'm not. You're my contractor, I'm your boss. Let's see how we can partner together. It. It ended up failing, unfortunately, miserably. There were tears. I'm not going to even lie. It was hurtful, the things that she said. There was a lot of character assassination that was happening, a lot of untruths in this. In this document that she gave me as a resignation letter. But, you know, I realized very soon after that it was a reflection of her, not necessarily a reflection of me. I know I operate with integrity. I even followed up and gave her additional funding, post her resignation to make sure that, you know, I crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's. And I can say with certainty that I think she reflected back that what she did was unkind because months later, she followed up with me to share some personal family news, a tragedy that had happened. And I was like, why would you reach out to someone that you, in a way, almost viewed as. I was like, I was Lucifer. You know, I went from being this angelic, wonderful person where she was just raving and praising about me. To I'm like the worst boss ever in a matter of like three weeks. So, yeah, that was the story.

Wow. This is. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing the story. And I know that as a leader, it's hard, especially when this is the first time something of this magnitude has happened. It's hard not to take that personally. And especially when you're somebody who focuses on mental health, who focuses on emotional intelligence. We're trained to be self aware and try to take accountability for our behavior. And then you say to yourself, well, if some, if what I did triggered somebody to this point to have a reaction, this, this significant, maybe there's something wrong with me. And so I want to talk through how you as a clinician who understands psychology, how you went through that process, because you talked about how there were tears at the beginning, but then you worked through it and you started to, to, to see it a little bit differently. What was your personal process to, to go through that and make sense of what happened?

That's a great question. I believe, you know, we all emote differently. And so, you know, tears can be a series of emotions. It could be the pain, it could be anger, it could be disappointment and shock. It was literally all of those emotions wrapped into one because it was very hurtful. You know, this was a person who, as I said, you know, not only did I pour into, but I felt like she even tried to pour into me with the praise, with the affirmations, with the way that she was seeing me show up in different workplaces because there are times that she sat in on my trainings. You know, she helped facilitate certain things. And so I, I come from two very hardworking immigrant parents who were big on integrity. So to read something like this where someone is letting me know that I hurt them, I'm starting to question where did I drop the ball? Where, where did I miss something? But I'm also really big on operating in clarity and in truth. So I was like, wait, let's get some perspective. You know, let's get an objective or a close to objective first, you know, point of view. You know, my husband and my friends could only be as objective as possible because they're still my friends, my husband, but you know, when I shared the, the PDF with them and they were able to give me their feedback and kind of highlight things that I was feeling internally, but putting words to those emotions, saying, she's weaponizing your work. You know, this, this. You know, I have one clinician who did say like this sounds like a bit of a personality disorder that might be happening here. Just other things that were kind of like affirming the, the thoughts that I had and then recognizing. No, I did operate in the way that I should have operated as I shared. You know, that business strategist did create a hostile environment based off her communication with my team because I had hired this great hire plus someone else. And that other person I failed to mention, the one who I actually brought in as an a va she even had some odd feelings about that other hire. And so when I told her, hey, by the way, you know, our team has, you know, whittled down a bit, you know, we're no longer going to have such and such on the team, she said, okay, now that she's gone, can I share my perspective? Perspective of her, you know, and how she's communicated, how she would show up on in team meetings. I've worked with a lot of toxic bosses and in toxic work environments. Yes, the email from your business manager didn't necessarily sit well, but I, you know, kept it moving. But the response that this hire had given made me start questioning myself. And when you called to apologize for what this business strategist did, I was like, I've never had a boss apologize for poor behavior. It mel made me feel safe. You're not the problem. The person who left was the problem. And that's not necessarily to make me look like I'm high and mighty and that I'm great. But I think it's very important for us to recognize that when we're trying to be self aware, we need feedback. And self awareness is a two way street. So it's not like, oh, I'm so great you, it's being able to ask the other folks that you're, you know, that are experiencing you, how am I landing on you? How are you experiencing me? And to be able to receive that from this other higher, to be able to get also the professional perspective of, you know, my colleagues and my peers and my close friends, it helped me to move through the hurt in a way that I think was very affirming and healing. So I do recommend that if you are a person in leadership or in a role where there's just a greater demand on you to make sure that you have a support system that is going to be honest with you and will be able to provide the feedback needed for you to be able to look at the situation that you're in in a better light with greater perspective and an objective point of view.

Yes, I agree 100% and I. I love how you've kind of mapped out the pathway to true self awareness. Right. Because it doesn't just come 100 from yourself. You have to recognize that you. The perspectives of other people matter. And also getting a decent sample size is helpful as well, especially when you're dealing with somebody whose personality is so strong and loud. It can really throw off the metrics here. And one of the things that's coming to mind, I'm hearing this happen more and more often. And this doesn't. It doesn't sound like it is directly applicable to your situation, but we can see how it is. If it were to progress, it probably would have been applicable. And that's the concept of gaslighting. And the person creates this reality and then distorts your own. And in this situation, let's kind of, we can use this kind of like as a foundation, but let's just talk about that concept of gaslighting for. From your perspective as somebody who's an expert in emotional intelligence and a clinician, what is it and how does it affect people?

It's, you know, when you said it, I was like, ding, ding, ding. Because I have not shared necessarily the details that was in the, you know, Aaliyah four page letter that I received, but there were, you know, like, I said that there were screenshots and, you know, quotes that learn that she used it to manipulate what actually happened. So when someone is gaslighting you, they are literally trying to rewrite the. The moment, the incident, which you said, to make you question, in a way, your sanity. Like, well, did I actually say that? Well, maybe I did mishear. And so when you start questioning your thoughts or your words, you start questioning yourself, and you now start to feel like you're off balance. Maybe I'm not grounded as much as I think I am. It's very manipulative. And if you experience any type of trauma in the past, if you are also wrestling with your own insecurity, it can be extremely damaging. So to be able to have, as I said in your toolkit, a community that can help you go, no, you're not. You're not making stuff up. I was there. That's not what happened. Helps you to plant your feet on solid ground. In this case, for, for the relationship I had with this, this person, it was a lot of, here's my story. This is how it happened. And I'm not saying that that isn't her perspective, but it is nice to have a third party to confirm what you see, what you believe to know is true as truth. But as I said before, if you've experienced any type of trauma before where maybe your own emotions, your own experience was minimized, dismissed or belittled, to have a person like this, whether it's a colleague, a direct report, a boyfriend or girlfriend, it can be very devastating to your self esteem and to your own well being because you just question yourself the whole time.

Yeah. And that's a scary place to be when you start to question reality because that is the foundation upon which we navigate the world. And the. I love the fact that you've given us a major tool here, the community, a community that you can trust, that can keep us grounded in objective reality so we can get out of perspectives and you could say, hey, what actually happened here? You know, as a self check. And one, one of the things that's fascinating about this because we're talking about gaslighting and how there's the nexus between gaslighting and manipulation. Essentially gaslighting is a tool that's used in order to manipulate you because with manipulation you are distorting reality or the flow of information in order to get a specific outcome that you want. And essentially they're willing to attack your brain and well being in order to get the outcome that they want, which is terrifying. And I'm also seeing a bit of a pattern as well. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this because interestingly, the person who is the master manipulator, the gaslighter, they don't want to be seen as the bad person in this situation. And so even months later they come back. But this is the key. I've seen this so many times, Farah. They come back not with an apology, but with some horrendous situation that is meant to escape blame. I am not a bad person. The only reason I did those things is because this was happening to me. Right. And they don't even, they don't even explicitly create the connection. They just put it out there and put themselves in the victim position because oftentimes the people who are gaslighting, they pick victims who are, who care about emotions and care about the well being of others. And so they put themselves in this victim position hoping that you're going to rush in and save them and absolve them of their wrongdoing.

Absolutely. And something that I would add to, they will try to find ways to isolate you. And so this goes back to why I believe it's important for you to have a community. Because when the relationship between you and that person is always just one on one. You don't have anyone to be able to say, well, no, actually I heard it this way. So it was actually beneficial that there were things that happened on team meetings, team calls, where there was another person or you know, there were, you know, group emails so that there, there was someone else to say. No, it actually happened this way. And to your point of circling back and going like, oh, but no, poor me, you're, you're a kind person. You're going to ignore what I've done in the past because you're so kind and you're so patient and you know, you care about other people's feelings. So as I trauma dump on you, you know, you'll be able to give me the support or the, the healing or the affirmation that I'm looking for. And you know, and I've seen this unfortunately, you know, not just as a clinician, but you know, a daughter in law of a mother who struggled with mental illness. And so I would see her, you know, just burn bridges and then try to rebuild them again with like some new situation that was happening to her. And you know, of course, if you have a bleeding heart, if you're extremely empathetic and sometimes if you don't have healthy emotional boundaries, you would restart the relationship again, only to then have another moment where you go from being the angel to, you know, Lucifer in a matter of seconds and you know, the bridge is once again burned. So, so you know, just to be mindful for, for the, any listeners who might recognize that they're in a situation like this to try to bring another party in, if you're recognizing that this individual tries to isolate you.

Yeah, that's powerful. That's powerful. And it is incredible to see the consistency of this pattern. As soon as you are about to hold somebody accountable, the, the trauma dumping begins. It's like, hey, you don't need to come down hard on me because life already has. In fact, can you.

Exactly, it's like, wait, wait, what just happened? Oh, oh, I'm so sorry that happened. Okay, well, you know, woo, woo, woo. Now you're, you know, you're, you're back to being the caregiver for this person. It's, it's emotionally exhausting.

Yes. And now, now let's talk about what we can do in these conversations too, because they're, what's really fascinating is that there is a very different approach that probably should be utilized in these types of conversations. This isn't a typical kind of conflict or a typical kind of negotiation. This is something much more, much different, much more sinister in a lot of cases, and challenging. And it's not just challenging situationally and substantively, it's challenging emotionally and psychologically. And when you start to recognize that somebody is gaslighting you or manipulating you, a lot of times you want to have that moment where you can clap back and then you catch them. It's kind of like those, like the Scooby Doo moment where you take off the mask. You're like, oh man, I would have gotten away with it. I guess you got me right. And then they come clean when their bags against the wall. A lot of times we don't get that satisfaction. But not just that. It is our desire to get that satisfaction that often keeps us connected and stuck. And so can, can you help us to break down this, this dynamic and, and how we could approach it?

Oh, okay. So the word that keeps coming to my mind as I was hearing you talk is ego. We really need to make sure we check our ego when we are in situations like this. Because our ego, our pride, even our understanding of self, it's like, well, no, I'm not this bad person. No, you know, we would want to almost either overcompensate, over, explain. And when you have someone who is a gaslighter, the more information you give them is more ammunition that they can use against you. So hence back to the seven page, you know, letter. She pulled everything she could along with the knowledge that she was able to, to accumulate from, you know, sitting in my trainings and my facility in my sessions that I facilitated to go, oh, you know, let me use the words this way. Let me, let me highlight this, this takeaway. So when these things happen, it's a mind game. And so you have to be smart. And I mentioned a little while ago about having emotional boundaries. Try not to let this other person trigger you so that you are now being reactive and you're now actually matching their low EQ vibration, if you want to even call it that. So you want to stay level headed and go, I'm sorry you felt that way. That is not how I saw the situation. This is what happened. If we cannot come to an agreement, then let's just agree to disagree. Because I did offer, I guess you can say an olive branch, but I don't know if it was necessarily an olives branch. I think it was just doing my due diligence as a business owner where I said, can we have a final conversation? Conversation in a way like an exit interview, because it was a very passive aggressive way of trying to leave. It was like, let me send you this, you know, large document and saying, you know, kind of like fu and, you know, hopefully your company will actually be what, you know, it's meant to be. Just very, very bogus, you know, little digs. And I was like, I want you to have the space to say what you need to say. And in my mind also allow me to have an opportunity to respond. She declined. And I said, okay, well, I'm making note that you're declining to have a conversation. I'm making note that I'm addressing these. I don't even want to say the loose ends. Like I said, you know, she, she tried to complain, oh, I did more work than, than I even billed you for. That's not my problem. You know, it's like, you, you gotta work smarter, not harder. And that was one of the issues I had with her, where she would kind of go down her own area of interest instead of doing what was asked of her. And I had to stop myself and said, you know, if this is what she wants, let me make sure that I have it documented. You know, declined having a conversation, paid X amount of dollars for, you know, undocumented, you know, work hours. And then I left it at that. The more you talk to the person, the more you try to make them see where you're coming from, it just becomes this very long, laborious dance that, that no one's going to win. You know, you're just going to get your foot stepped on the entire time and it's just not productive. So the less ammo you can give them, the better and just stand in your truth. I'm sorry you see it that way. I see it differently. It doesn't seem like we're going to come to an agreement. And so let it just be where it is. Let you know, dead dogs lie and, you know, dust your shoulders off, keep it moving.

There's so much here to explore. And I know that other. The person listening to this and me as I'm hearing this too, we're having flashbacks like, oh, oh my gosh, it's a playbook. It is a playbook that, that people run. And that's, that's one of the red flags in a work environment too, where somebody claims that they're, they're working really hard, but. And they, they talk about how much more they're working than everybody else, but then cannot provide any substantive evidence of such work and effort.

I.

This is sounding very familiar. It's wild and now a couple of things that you mentioned. I want to go deeper on there in these because they are, they're very important and powerful. And if we can understand it, it can lead us to the freedom that we're looking for in these situations. Two things you said, the ego gets in the way. And then you also said that we cannot let them trigger you. Now, yes, we understand that, but how do we do it because it's so hard in these circumstances.

Well, this is, this is definitely where, you know, my, my framework on EQ comes in, which is the three A's, the aware, assess, address. And so you have to be aware of what your triggers are. And if you're not aware, to practice that awareness is to be able to ask yourself, like, what is my body doing in this moment? Am I being, you know, am I feeling tense? Am I feeling queasiness in my belly? Am I clenching my fist? Your body is letting you know what emotion is coming up in, you know, whether it is you're reading the email or if it's, you know, a direct conversation so that you can slow down and say, this is not the emotion that is going to be beneficial in actually creating a productive dialogue. You know, anger is real, we have it. But if you're going to move and react out of their anger and you know, this being, you know, a key negotiator is that you just see red, you don't hear, you're not aware, you're not paying attention, you're just, you're just being reactive and it's just not productive for you, the conversation. The other person, again, can weaponize your anger against you. So what you have to do is then, you know, after you're aware of the emotion, assess. Why is this coming up for me? Is it that this person is reminding me of a previous experience? I felt this way before, you know, with a parent, with a partner, with, you know, another manager. What's the story that I'm telling myself in the moment? And sometimes it's not even based off of that. Sometimes it could just be the time of day. Like, man, this person hit me at 7.30am I have not had my morning coffee, I have not gone for my jog. I've not, I've not done what I need to do to regulate myself. So this is actually probably not the best time to have this conversation just due to whatever the external circumstances are. Once you've assessed that, now you know how to address, how do you effectively communicate with this person? Hey, you know what? This is not the Best time for us to have this conversation. Can we circle back? Can we, can we schedule a conversation later? Or it's. If it is more just an emotional thing, it's like, okay, I've taken a deep breath, I'm counting 10. I'm hearing what they're saying. I'm acknowledging empathy doesn't mean agreement. So you can say, I understand what you're saying. I hear where you're coming from. I see it differently. This is, this is my position. So I just really think that when it comes to our ego and our triggers, we see still need to practice the skill set of emotional intelligence, to ground ourselves, to still acknowledge the emotion, to respect that, because, you know, we want to honor ourselves, especially when the other person is dismissing or belittling or ignoring the emotion. You could even say, this is very upsetting. You just don't need to be like, ah, you know, so I think that's the issue that people feel like, oh, my anger is justified in how I react in my anger. And that's not true. Your feelings aren't facts. They're, they're, they're data. So it's like, okay, this information is letting me know this conversation is uncomfortable, or this conversation is circular and it's not going anywhere. Whatever that is that you are getting as input is to help you figure out the correct output to save your behind, you know, so that there's a lawsuit coming or, you know, you say something that you can't take back. So it is really a practice of the pause and, and really being able to center yourself when everything else is, you know, just, just walking in. That person is trying to throw you off your balance.

Yep. This is powerful. I love the framework because you've actually given us something tangible that we, that we could use here. Because understanding where you're coming from, developing that, that awareness, that self awareness, assessing why you're feeling the way you, you are, and being compassionate toward yourself in understanding that, because it's probably triggering some things from the past, whatever it happens to be, or calling into question who you are, your identity, your value, and just being real with yourself about why it hurts so much can help you to overcome and manage that pain. Then lastly, how to address it. But addressing it from a place that is grounded in reality and the. You talked about empathy talk about empathy so much and people misunderstand it because they think empathy is agreement or endorsement. No, it's not. We have to like people or, or whatever to use empathy. No, it's not. We can use it to just Simply understand. That's it. And now here's the thing. I want to get your thoughts on this. If you're somebody who practices emotional intelligence, you are empathetic. Maybe you are an empath or you want to treat people with respect to. A lot of times you almost. In most cases, this doesn't hurt you, but in cases like this, it could. You almost accept what they're saying as true to understand it. And the more you wrestle with it, the. The more legitimate it almost becomes. And so let's say, for instance, it's almost like the. The mere exposure effect in psychology, where they find that the more you're exposed to a stimulus, the more you become comfortable with it or start to feel. Feel favorably to it. And a lot of times it's not just the fact that they are telling their truth. I'm using air quotes aggressively here. Telling their truth, but they're actually selling the truth. And so if somebody is exactly right, it's like they're. They're trying to convince you. Heavily, heavily, heavily. And then by being overly empathetic, we avail ourselves to their persuasion, and it makes it more likely for us to get manipulated. So can you help us to understand how we can start to draw these boundaries to make sure that our empathy doesn't get used against us in these conversations?

Great. Great question. So when. When I teach on empathy, I help folks recognize that there's actually three layers to empathy. So there's the emotional empathy, which is what I believe you're talking about. This is where for some individuals, they. They say that they're an empath. They feel like, literally feel what other people are feeling. This. This empathy is beautiful. There's a time and place for it. But this one does lack some boundaries. You start taking on the other person's experience, so much so that you ignore how it's making you feel. And. And that's not helpful. Then there's the cognitive empathy. So this is when we are. It's just very much head knowledge. Like, I can see why, you know, Kwame could feel this way or he would think this way. We might even see this, like in a doctor's office where we kind of experience someone who gives us a. Maybe a bad diagnosis and they just move on to treatment. And they don't kind of take a beat and realize, like, you just processed that you have, you know, six more months to live or that you have to have a major surgery, that they're like, hey, I know this is difficult news. Here it is. And then they kind of move On, So it just kind of stays here. And they don't take that moment to be sensitive to how it will be processed emotionally. Then there's compassionate empathy. This is where most clinicians are trying to operate from, where you are seeing the other person's perspective. You can get why they feel what they're feeling, and you're there to help, but there is a boundary there and helps you recognize. But this is you. This is your story. So, like, in my book, I share and I don't remember which chapter, but when I'm breaking down these three types of empathies, I highlight that when I was seeing clients, it would be as if I would walk into an apartment building. Every apartment was a client. I would sit there with their feelings, hear them out, support them. Because sometimes help is just listening. Sometimes people just need that space to be heard. You know, it's not physically giving them money or, you know, buying something for them or having to do something like writing a letter. It could just literally just be present. And then I would leave the apartment building at the end of the day to go to my home because I have my own stuff. I got my own kids, I have my own husband, I have my own family. And so I think many times people end up becoming residents in the building of their clients, and it's like, no, you were there to help and then to leave. And so when we have these moments, when we have these encounters, we have to be careful that when we leave that conversation, are we taking their stuff with us? And if we're so much caught up into what they're dealing with that we ignore how we have compromised our own boundaries, we have said yes to things that we would have normally said no to. We are now hurting our other responsible responsibilities, whether that's our work or our personal relationships, because of somebody's side sob story. Yeah. That we've no longer are in the realm of empathy. Now you've just kind of are bleeding, and it becomes a bit of an enmeshment. You know, you can't tell the difference between where you end and the other person begins.

Yes. And I love this. This metaphor of the. The apartment buildings, because it's not even. It's like, you gotta go. You gotta go home. And what I recognize too, is that they don't want you to go home. They want you to stay there.

Yeah.

And then there's often a guilt tripping that happens if you have the audacity to be well while they are struggling. And so it's like the only way that you can be. What they want you to be is if they, they pull you to the pits of their own personal hell and you just exist there and feel it, too.

Yeah, I mean, I, When I had therapy clients, I would. Another metaphor that I would use was, okay, not every property has offense, but you know exactly where you stop mowing your grass, like, you know, your property line. But the issue is that there's so many people who start putting things on your lawn because you haven't said, wait, no, this is my property. That, that, that's your lawn chair. That's. That's your beach ball. Or that's whatever. No, we, I'm just even looking outside, like, yes, we might have some bushes, but there is a lot of property out there that. There is no divider, physical divider, between your property and another and the other person's property. But you know where your property line is. But they're going to want you to mow their grass, too. They're going to want you to take care of their, you know, weeds and all. I'm paying taxes on this property. I'm not paying taxes over there. So we have to just be mindful of that.

Oh, sorry. The, the. Okay, Simon will edit that. Sorry about that. I'm so eager. This is so, this is so good. Let, let's talk about the, the warning signs here, because we've, we're, we've kind of started in the middle to. Or toward the end, but it would be even better if we could start to identify when there are some telltale signs that things could be going awry. And so this isn't just in the business space. I want us to think about it in personal life, too, with our significant others, the people we might be dating or our friends. What are some patterns that we might be dealing with? Somebody who is manipulative or utilizing gaslighting.

Oh, my goodness. It's so interesting that you asked this question because I was processing this morning, like I said, oh, as I'm, you know, starting to share the story on LinkedIn, you know, what are the takeaways? And to your point, you know, what are the signs? And I, So I've been reflecting, like, what were the signs that this person was giving me to let me know something's not, not right. I think first is if there is, if there are part of me conversations that you're having with the individual where you start recognizing that they don't take accountability for something that they've said. And it can be very minor. It could be something like, yeah, you know, when I got the blue shirt and. And returned it to the store, and you go, well, the shirt was. Was. Was green. That's what I said. It was a green shirt. No, you said it was blue. I never said it was blue. I said it was green. So moments like, it could be just like the smallest thing where you go, no, you said this. And it's difficult for them to go, oh, my bad. I'm sorry. Little moments like that. And I'm saying this because I hate to call out my own daughter, but she has this tendency. She's very young, y', all, so, you know, I. I can still help her. She's. She's a preteen. But I've noticed, you know, going back to the whole ego thing, I've had to help her recognize. I said, you know, you can be wrong. And she'll sit there and go, of course I can. I'm not trying to be perfect, okay? But your accent, your actions are showing something different. If I correct you on something, you immediately have to have the last word. You. You go, well, that's not exactly what I said. I said, when you're on a receiving end of someone like that, it can be exhausting. Now, of course, she doesn't like hearing that, but that's really what gaslighters do. They twist it. They make you question if what you heard was correct. And it's never. It doesn't. It doesn't start on something big. It's usually something very small. And you're like, oh, wait, maybe I. Maybe I did mishear you. I'm sorry. Go ahead with your story. And then they go on. And then they also try to find ways to. I'm hesitant to even say love bomb you. But, you know, everything you do is great. You're so smart. You're so creative. You're so this. You're so that. Oh, I told somebody about you. And they're just, you know, giving you all of these wonderful affirmations. And, you know, almost to the point, we're just like, wow, am I that great? I appreciate that. But, like, this is. This is interesting. So you get this mix of, I know you so well. You're so great, but yet there's this tension you start feeling in conversations when you correct them on something minute. And there's this strong reaction to that correction. These are the things that are just coming up in my mind right now. I actually need to sit and reflect a little bit more on this. But I do feel like we have experienced folks like this where there's it's almost like a nice nasty, right? You know, where there's, there's these niceties, there's these moments where like, nah, they cool. Oh, but I don't know, there's just something else that's there that's kind of like, oh, that was a. Kind of a sharp response, you know. Why did you say it that way? I. I think this is where we start seeing some things and then they start building when you really start holding their feet to the fire. And you go, well, no, it didn't happen this way. Now they start coming with, you're, you're wrong, you're not nice. You actually aren't as great as you think that you are. And it literally, it flips. You know, the scripts, gets flipped on you. You're like, wait, Last week, I was what organizations needed and that every person should have me as their boss. There was even a sad story of a friend who she shared with me had a toxic boss. And I'm not going to give too much detail. She just had a toxic boss. And she said, you know, it didn't work out well. She said, I wish my friend would have had a boss like you. To then three weeks later, letting me know that I have a psychologically unsafe work environment and that she hopes that I would actually esteem the tenants and the mission and the vision of my business would actually be realized in real time. Which one is it? Am I the boss that everybody wants because I'm so great and have high eq, or is this the worst place that you can work for? So, but as I think back in process, you know, clients that I've had that have been this way, who struggle, not like they've done this to me, but I've seen how they've interacted with their loved ones and their colleagues, how I've experienced this one, you know, person, you know, as a hire, it starts off very small. The. No, I didn't say that. Or you misunderstood what I meant. It didn't go exactly that way to, you're so great, you're so wonderful. And then, no, you're the worst person ever. So it's, it's, it's, it's like breadcrumbs. But I think going back to being really present with yourself, I know that when we have a nice nasty, we will question that feeling that we have that something's amiss because that person seems so nice. Trust what you're feeling. And I know that can be hard, especially for someone who may have experienced trauma in their past. Especially if they experience sexual trauma where, you know, not only was your. You were physically violated, but you were emotionally violated. If you. If you said stop and they didn't, then you start disassociating with yourself. So when you experience this kind of sinister way of abuse from somebody else, you might dismiss that gut feeling of like, something's not right. I know that was just a little diss or a side, you know, smirk side remark. But something doesn't sit well with me, and sure enough, it will reap havoc later if you don't start creating these. This distance and these healthy boundaries with that individual.

Yes, I agree 100%. And it's encouraging to know that there are some breadcrumbs we can start to pick up on early on, because it's better to be able to identify these things sooner. And it might almost feel a little bit callous. But you have to set boundaries and be very decisive with this boundary setting. And if somebody has a really significant problem with you setting boundaries, then that in itself is a red flag. And I want to get your thoughts on this, Farah, because I'm wondering how much. Because I've gone through these types of things as well. Our background can be an asset as much as it can be a liability. Because I know for me, for. With what I do, negotiation, persuasion, communication, the background in psych, I recognize that in the past, I've taken it almost like a challenge. Like, I'm. I can fix this. I can. I can help this person. I can persuade them, right? And then the harder it gets, I'm like, well, now it's a thing. Now I cannot take this. L. And then going back to the. The kind of love bombing where the person would say something to the effect of, I have never been this consistent. I've never been this stable. I've never been this secure. I've never been this happy. I've never had a boss like you, a friend like you, whatever it happens to be. And then you're like, if those things are true, and I am also persuasive, then I should be able to figure this out, right? And. And then it just keeps. It has kept me stuck in bad situations for far longer than is necessary. So it's like, it's. It's almost like sometimes the best parts of ourselves, when attached to the worst kind of person, can put us in the worst position.

Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. And I think, too, when you are a person who is working on being a healthy and healed person that desires to have healthy relationships, I can Totally understand there being a motivation, a desire to have that other person be well too, and have that other person have that healing. And you're like, maybe I can do it. Maybe they just haven't met a person like me, and I can give them the tools and the skill set. And I also think, too, as a background, as a clinician, sometimes that can be unhelpful because you really try to go into. Well, I. I can see their trauma. They are only doing this because of that. And when you do that, you don't realize that you actually end up in a way. What's the word that I'm looking like, Minimizing yourself in the moment that person is hurting you because you're so empathetic, because you are so understanding, because you have all this great skill set. You really try to meet them where they are, not realizing that they're not trying to meet you where you are. And so you. You. You know, and I've had this in relationships before where I go, I understand why they're showing up this way, but I have to be honest. Just because I understand how they. Why they're showing up this way does not help me not show up as authentic as I can in the moment because I, too, have feelings. And though their reaction is a trauma response that I understand, that doesn't mean that I should accept it, and that doesn't mean that the emotional reaction that I'm having right now is invalid. And I think that's been a hard thing for me to even reconcile with, even people that I love, you know, So I sit there and I go, like, how much longer am I going to have to be the bigger person? How much longer am I going to allow you to, you know, operate in your. Your. Your low EQ due to your trauma while I have to sit and suffer in silence? It's. It's not kind to me, nor is it kind to you. And so we have to. And I hate to bring back the. The ego thing. We have to ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Is it, like, to yourself, like, oh, man, I can't take this. L. We gonna make this work. We're gonna figure this out. And it's like, well, no, there are just certain relationships you don't need to make work. There are just. There are just certain relationship. And. And I think it's hurtful to us, especially when it's a relationship that we have miles in, you know, where this. I. I've been friends with this person for so long, or it's a family member or someone that you've poured into. I think that's where you also feel the betrayal. It's like I've poured into you. I've. I've. I've poured time. I've poured emotions, I've poured patience. I've poured all these things. And this is how. No, we. We. For. For my sake, we have to make this work. But actually, for your sake, best thing to do is actually say, this isn't working. And it's actually eroding my trust. It's eroding my health. It's eroding my. My. My sense of reality. I will have to take this. L. Some losses are actually wins.

Yeah. And I think that's so important to remember because it. Though the win is getting rid of the problem. And I. I remember, for me, I was always, as a negotiator, we were always taught, separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. And I realized that people are the problem. That's the conclusion. I and I. And I never allowed myself to get there as a leader. But then I became a better leader once I accepted that is sometimes the conclusion. And the. The ego for me manifests itself in many ways, because like I said, it was, hey, I'm persuasive. I understand psychology. I can. I can fix this challenge. And then afterwards, it's like, it still keeps me latched in because I'm like, okay, cool, maybe I can't fix it, but I can at least get the problem to admit they're the problem. What I've found, Farah, is that problems don't like to admit they're the problem. And that's part of the problem, right? And so it. That keeps us stuck because we try to get them to. To accept it. And then with understanding, one of the things that hurts us is curiosity, because in your mind, you. You understand that you would not do such a thing. And then you're like, what would lead a person to do something like this? Why are you doing this? There maybe. Maybe there's some legitimacy to it. So we stay curious, and then they keep on feeding us a bunch of misinformation that just confuses us further. And so when you think about sunk cost fallacy, we say, all right, the more you invest in something, the harder it is to let go, regardless of how bad the investment is. And one question that I started to ask myself, that was really helpful is if we were starting afresh and I did not have this relationship and this history, but I knew Everything that I currently know about this person, would I invite them into my life right now? And if the answer is no, then I have to say no right now. Because now every moment I still have, I still retain the power to choose. And if I recognize, hey, I can choose to increase, increase the, the, the value of my life, to improve the quality of my life by removing a toxic person, then that is a win. If I wouldn't get them into my life now, why would I continue to have them in my life in the future?

That is phenomenal. That is a great revelation. I really hope that people eat on that and chew on that because that was that. That is so true. Like, if you realize, if I know now that this is all that I know now, I would say no, then why am I, Why, why is this? Why am I continuing to invest? It doesn't make any sense. And then when you brought up curiosity, I kept thinking about, you know, curiosity killed the cat. Like there's a point in time, you know, Like I get frustrated, like in scary movies, you know, A sound. What's that noise? Let's find where it's coming from. No, let's go as far away from what seems like a threat. It always blows my mind, like, why are they going closer to the threat? And this is what we do, though, that curiosity. What makes this person do this? Why do they do this? And I'm at fault for this too. I even share in the book. I've always been curious. I've always been a people watcher. I've always wondered why they do what they do, because to me, context gives me clarity. But there is a time and a place where you realize, I've gotten enough context. I don't need any more clarity like this. This is not a good story. It's not going to end well. I don't need to read the whole book. You know, it's, it's. We can stop right here, but we have to be willing to do that. And I know that sometimes people are afraid of loss even when it's a toxic relationship, because we just don't do well as a society with grief. We don't do well as a society in processing the emotions that come with loss. So some people will stay in something way past their expiration date, get used to the sour smell, because they, they don't want to deal with the emotions that come with the severing of that relationship or that thing or that experience.

Yes, I agree 100%. It's. And you almost get habituated to it. That's one of the best and worst things about humanity. We can acclimate to really tough situations so we don't feel the pain so much. And, but that often can keep us stuck and we, we can, we forget what it feels like to not have this challenge. And if you find yourself constantly after an interaction with a person, consistently just feeling drained, feeling upset, angry or confused, that was one thing I recognized. Farah. I realized in certain situations, wait a second. With all of my other relationships, I don't feel bad after talking to them and I don't feel confused as hell. Like, that's a weird, like a weird feeling to have after having a conversation where somebody providing you with information, you feel more befuddled than previously. And if that's happening consistent consistently, that's, that's bad.

I, I think you hit the nail on the head when you were talking, when we were, when you asked me earlier, like, what are the signs? I think, you know, that emotion of confusion is a huge sign because yeah, you, you go, where, where was the, where was the lines, like screwed? Like, how, how did this go from that to this? And when you have to in a way get outside of like, can I, can I phone a friend? You know what, what just happened here? When that happens in text exchanges, when that happens over email, when that happens after a one on one. Yeah, that's again, it's data. If you constantly leave walking away going, huh, something's not right there. And if it's always with the same person, yeah, that's where you need to investigate. If this is always the case, this may not necessarily be a fruitful relationship because, you know, in the case that I had with this higher, I would give her direct, you know, checkpoints, give her direct responsibilities and then get something completely different. You know, it's like going to order, you know, a chocolate cake and then someone presents you with the strawberry shortcake and you're like, well, I mean that's, that's delicious and all, but that's not, not what I ordered. And then they get upset going, like, but I spent all this time making you this cake. Everyone enjoys this cake. I don't understand how you never liked this cake. When do you know who else would want this cake? And then you're like, well, damn it, maybe I need to take the cake. You know? But then you're like, but I still needed chocolate. So that, that was the, the thing that always at the end when all of this was said and done, like, I kept sitting back going, man, she always gave me what I never asked for and then yet demanded that I be happy with what she gave. And I think we experienced this with a lot of people where it's like, I gave you this. I did this for you. It's like, but I didn't ask for that. I specifically asked for this. And now you're, you're making me feel bad that I didn't accept the very thing I didn't ask for. That's, that's cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. That's just, it's wild.

It's like they're, they're trying to steal validation and acceptance. If I, if I go into, like a store and then I give them, you know, some, you know, chewed up bubble gum and a typewriter, and I try to walk out with the most expensive item, they'll be like, what are you doing? You're stealing. Stealing. Do you see the typewriter I just gave you? I didn't ask for that. That's not how this exchange works. In what? Right. It's, it's a, it's a bizarre thing. And one, one last thing I want to cover before we, before we wrap. I want to talk about power reclaiming and retaining your power. And what I realized is that a lot of times we, our ego tries to assert its power, but inadvertently gives it all away. And you know, you're giving away your power when you don't have the right to choose anymore and when you are on the wrong side of the directionality of need. So think about it from a negotiation perspective. The classic way to analyze leverage is who needs the deal most. That person loses because they're going to be willing to compromise and give up more in order to get something, but the other person doesn't feel like they need it as much, so they don't give up anything. And a lot of times what happens is our ego drives us to desire something that's outside of our control. I need them to admit that they're wrong. I need them to see it our way. I need them to change their behavior. And so we're making our well being contingent upon their decisions and actions. But the way to reclaim our power is by retaining our ability to, number one, make choices and number two, not need them. And so if you can recognize, all right, my life can go on and in fact could get better without them. Now, I don't need this relationship. I don't need this validation. And also I'm going to be the person that chooses to move on. I'm not going to wait for them to do something that's in my best interest. I'm going to make the choice and I don't need them anymore. That's how you reclaim your power. And then you see the directionality of needs switch because now, now they need you. It's like, wait a second. That's not how my manipulation goes. I'm supposed to create this chaos and it's supposed to draw you in. You can't just walk away. And then you'll see them start to come back to you, trying to pull you back in after you've left.

Yes, yes, yes. And I've seen it happened so many times. I remember sitting with clients going, oh, I didn't know that you gave the, the. The. The responsibility of where your life will go to whatever individual. So sometimes this would be with someone that they were dating and they're like, well, no, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, you just said, you know, if, if he wants to break up, then he's going to have to be the one to break up. Okay, so he determines whether you're together or not. So whether you are happy and content doesn't really matter. He is the one who, who determines this. And I think we don't realize how much we give up when we are not taking ownership of what it is that we actually want and being able to see what we want in a healthy and objective point of view. Because there are people like, well, I want this relationship, but you're not looking at the relationship objectively because the relationship is unhealthy. So you wanting to keep toxicity, that, that, that's on you. But when we have those moments where, you know, when I'm kind of coach, some of my clients too, when they're getting ready to have difficult conversations, and I'm like, well, what is your goal for the conversation? And if they say, well, you know, so I can get the apology, so I can get, I go, don't have the conversation. Because if you are going in needing them, like as you said, to either validate, hold themselves accountable, apologize, what happens to you when they don't? More often you fall apart, you get angry all over again. They rile you up. They literally have the upper hand. They are in the ones who are quote, unquote, in control of your emotions. So I say that the best. You know, sometimes the, the. The most important person that needs to hear your voice is you. So if you're going in just to say, hey, this hurt me, I'm not happy with this, you know, this, this is how it affected Me and that person goes, it never happened that way. Or, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to apologize. It really doesn't matter. You made sure you gave yourself the gift of speaking your truth, owning your voice. And you can go like, sorry, you can't see it from my point of view, but this is where I stand and move on. So I really think we have to learn how to just go, this is not about you. This is about me. And whether you see it my way or not doesn't really matter. Because, yeah, if your health, if you're moving on, is contingent to how they respond, you're never going anywhere. They're just going to hold you hostage.

Okay, now I got to extend this. Sorry, Simone, got another question. Okay. Because this is making me realize this is going to be a possibly unpopular opinion here. Because if we look at this through the. The eyes of Carl Jung and we think about the. The world being a mirror, not really a window. When we look out, we see ourselves and what we don't like within ourselves. Is it possible that we often find ourselves in these situations because there are parts of ourselves that we haven't healed? And when we find ourselves trapped in situations with people who are toxic, who are gaslighters, or who are manipul, whatever it happens to be, and we allow ourselves to get drawn in, it's often because there's something within us that allows ourselves to be drawn in this way. And yes, these situations are unfair. They shouldn't happen to you. That, that I will stipulate to that. I've been in it too myself. But I've also recognized that as I started to ask myself, what does this mean about me or what inside of me do I need to heal as a result of what I just went through? I recognized that I did have more self work to do, number one. And then ultimately it was empowering because I realized, oh, wait a second, I have a lot more power and control than I realized and I won't find myself in this situation again because I use this situation as a tool to not only discover more about myself, but build myself in a way that is stronger and more protective.

I understand why that would be an unpopular opinion. I don't disagree with that opinion. I do believe that there are. I mean, with everything, we have to be careful with absolutes. So it's not every single situation that quote, unquote, you're the problem. Some things happen. You know, the thing is, if you have a situation similar to what the story that I'VE shared today. When you are able to have some distance from the situation, are you actually taking time to learn from it? I think what happens when we have those moments where we're always in a situation or in an extended situation, it's because we're not taking the time to step back and actually have the perspective that you do. Just shared where you start going, like, maybe I have some work to do because what, what about this is a reflection of me, you know, because self awareness requires a mirror, you know, and the thing is that oftentimes we want to. I think there's a scripture that says, you know, it's like a fool is like a man who looks in the mirror and then walks away and forgets what he looks like. And so I think oftentimes we do that. We forget that this person hurt us. We forget that just yesterday they said these things that were, you know, extremely hurtful, that, you know, was emotionally abusive or whatever. Just last week, you know, what is the line? What is it that, you know, when people show you who they are, believe them? The first time we want to go like, no, I think, I think that there's another opportunity. And I'm actually a person that gives two strikes. I don't do the whole first. You know, one strike, you're out. I go, hey, you might have met them on a wrong day. You know, they may have gotten some distressing news. Their attitude is because, you know, maybe they, they, they lost a major client. I don't know. But if the second time is just as consistent as the first, this is their character, this is who they are. And the question we have to ask ourselves is why do we choose to remain in a sense space that causes us to be confused, that causes us to be frustrated, that causes us to feel more empty after the exchange and then hoping that that same individual that's emptying us, it will fill us. And it's like you're in a relationship where, you know, there's a hole in the bucket. You can pour as much water as you want, but it's never going to get to capacity because there is, is a leak that's happening there. And I think if we are once again isolated, if we do not have our community because we can't really do self care, absent of community, this is where we suffer. We don't have people telling us the truth. We can't always see the truth, and sometimes we can't handle the truth. So. And if you can't handle it, there's no one else to. I Hate to use the word blame, but there's no one else to hold you accountable but you. And I think that's where we struggle. I, I've seen clients who have stayed in just such unhealthy relationships, and it's the lack of self awareness. It's everybody's fault. Everybody, you know, is falling short. If they would just do this, then this would be better. It's like, no, no, no, no. You're here because of the choices you've made. Every decision brought you to this point. So when people ask, how did I get here? I'm like, look at your navigation system and see what turns you chose to take that brought you to this place. Again, not speaking in absolutes. There are some things where quote, unquote, the crap finds you, but there's other times where it just seems like we are just habitual crap finders and we look for it and we are always wondering, why Again, why does it stink us around?

Me.

And it's because there are things that have expired, that have gotten sources and we have learned to just, oh, well, we'll just spray some Febreze, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll just add some potpourri and it's like, nah, the stuff still stinks. And now I'm looking at you because you don't have to be here.

Yes. Oh, this is so good. Farah, I really appreciate you and it's always good to have you on the program. And before you go, I want you to remind the listeners again about your book and how they can work with you.

Sure. Yeah. So the book is the Color of Emotional how to Elevate Elevating Our Self and Social Awareness to Address Inequities. And it's also on Audible. And I do have a LinkedIn learning course that talks about emotional intelligence and its use in diversity, equity, and inclusion. And if you want to learn how to work with me, I would love to partner with you. If your workplace is looking how to create healthier cultures, higher emotional intelligence, greater psychological safety, Visit my website, www.workingwelldaily.com.