3 Steps to Facilitate Difficult Conversations And Improve Communication With Colleen Byers, JD, MBA

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Colleen, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thanks for having me.

It's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. Thanks. I'm a bridge builder and a lifelong learner. I used to litigate business trust and estate matters for clients and now my primary focus is on mediation and interest based negotiation coaching and training. I also enjoy being a registered yoga teacher. So I teach yoga weekly and I'm a wife to Sean and mom to Madison and Elena and our rescue German shepherd chief.

Very nice, very nice. And everybody listen, something Colleen didn't say is that she is incredible on LinkedIn. So we'll put her profile into the description. So make sure you give her a follow too.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

No problem. So today we're going to talk about facilitating difficult conversations. And so we're going to cover three tools to keep in mind when you're facilitating different difficult conversations. But before we get into those three steps, I want to start with a definition. So when we think about facilitation, it's a term that we use all the time, but let's get a definition on the table before we move forward.

Yeah, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the definition. I like to think of it as a guide. Right. I mean, I am just a conduit and I guide whoever is in the conversation to help them reach their objectives.

Yeah, I think that's a great way of thinking about it too, because when you think about it as a guide, a lot of times you might be picking the destination but you also might just be, dare I say, facilitating. You might be helping the other person to accomplish their goal and letting them pick what the destination is, but you're showing them how to get there, too. And whether it's a situation where we are a third party trying to facilitate a conversation on behalf of other people, we're not actively involved in it. But I feel like we can facilitate conversations if we are one of the participants, too, if we bring the right mindset to the conversation.

Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. And I think anytime there's a relationship, usually there'll be a little bit of a leader and a follower. Right. In that dynamic, and you may sometimes switch roles. But I do think that it's important that sort of you can guide from the outside, where you don't have a stake in the outcome, but you can also facilitate and guide when you do have a vested interest.

Yes. Okay, so let's go a bit deeper here, Colleen. So when we're thinking about facilitation, we gave our definition. It sounds very nice. A lot of times when I'm doing these presentations and trainings, people would say, hey, Kwame, how do I control a negotiation? So controlling comes into mind. So how would you distinguish or differentiate between facilitating a conversation and controlling a conversation?

Yeah, that's such a good question. And whether we are the lawyerly type or not. Human nature, Right. We want to control things. We want it our way. And I think. I think the word I'd like to suggest that people consider instead of control is responsibility. Right. Who has responsibility for what? As the facilitator, I have responsibility for the process, for the guardrails that we put on, like the bumpers and the bowling alley. Right. But I don't have responsibility for how many pins you knock down at the end of the lane. And I have found that the better outcomes, when I'm involved in negotiating, whether I have an interest in the outcome or not, the better outcomes are the ones where I take the time to let the reins go at least long enough to get input and data points and options put on the table by the other people involved in the discussion.

Yeah, well said. Well said. And I always think about this example. So I was doing a training one time, and I asked the audience, hey, what do you want to get out? What do you want to get out of this? And this guy said, I want to learn how to impose my will on others. I was like, ugh, no, stop. Nobody wants that. And when I think about the term control, how do I Control a negotiation. If I'm on the other side and the person is trying to control me, I don't like feeling controlled. And then oftentimes if you just from a human psychology, psychological perspective, if you try to control somebody now, they feel almost obligated to try to pull that control back. Right. And so what you've demonstrated with the way that you distinguish between control and facilitation is that, yeah, we're still leading the conversation, we're moving in a productive direction, but we're doing it in a way where it's still collaborative. And I love the term responsibility too, because we can have the two extremes. We can have people trying to control inappropriately during the negotiation, but then on the other side we can have a complete abdication of responsibility where they say the reason that this conversation failed is completely their fault without taking some time and thinking, what kind of guardrails could I put on this conversation to make sure that it goes in a productive direction, like you said?

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think perhaps if we're trying to control an outcome, we're looking for that immediate instant gratification, the instant result, as opposed to what if we really paused? Most of us probably want and need a viable, sustainable, long term solution and, or working relationship with the people that we're in negotiations with. Right. Think of a business context. Your team is, you know, it might be great for you to impose your will on one particular day, but if, if you're working with that team over a long period of time, really the best solution is going to be one that enrolls everybody, everybody feels heard, everybody has a say to choose and buy into the solution. And that might make for a sustainable, long lasting relationship that you build upon for all the future negotiations that you're going to have.

Exactly, yeah. I think when you have that mentality, it puts you in a better position for success not just in this moment, in this particular conversation, but also throughout the relationship going forward. Because most of the time these aren't just one shot negotiations. It's not just like a car negotiation. You're probably going to work with these people or live with these people for a longer period of time. So it's a much more sustainable approach. This is great. Well, let's get into our top three tips. We have, number one, prepare, number two, anticipate objections and number three, stay curious. And so you're taking a slightly different approach on preparation because you're not just talking about it from the research and strategy perspective. There are some other things that you're addressing, too. So what are the things we need to keep in mind when you're thinking about preparation?

Yeah. So it always surprises me. I was guilty of this before. I really sort of came up with this process. But it always surprises me when you ask a question, like you did in your training, of, you know, what do you hope to get out of this? Or what would a successful conversation look like? So we project out, you know, to the end of the conversation, and people just stare at you like, oh, I never thought about that. Like, what do you. What do you mean? You came into the conversation, but you have no idea what you're hoping to get out of it? Like, do you regularly get on a plane and you don't know where it's going? You know, so the prepper preparation is one of the pieces, is just some of the real basic, practical. Forget the technical, forget the substantive, but big picture. What do you hope will come out of this conversation? Because you can't figure out how to chart a course somewhere if you don't.

Know where you're going exactly. And what's so funny about this, Colleen, is that I know I've been in difficult conversations before where I ask that question, and they essentially say, well, I just want you to hear me. I just want to be heard. And I would have gone in there trying to solve problems, saying, did you try this? Did you do all these different things? But then when I realized, oh, you just wanted to. You just wanted somebody to listen. Oh, this conversation that I was allocating 45 minutes to is just me listening for 11 minutes. They feel good, and we go our separate ways.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And that sort of dovetails with the other piece of preparation, which is sort of the emotions. Right. Like managing. So I've heard it said. This is not original to me, but I've heard it said that in every conversation, there's at least two conversations going on. Well, there's probably really three. So in our conversation, there's three conversations going on. There's the one that your listeners hear between us, there's the one going on between my ears, and there's the one going on between your ears. So, you know, preparation. The other piece of preparation for me is to manage the conversation going on between my own ears. And one of the ways that I have found to do that is with meditation and a mindfulness practice, which is, you know, a daily practice for me that helps me sort of create the clearing to be able to have difficult conversations, to be able to notice when I'm getting triggered to be able to perhaps see cues or clues from somebody else in the conversation that maybe they're getting triggered. And there's all sorts of MRI studies that show how effective mindfulness is on increasing creativity, improving our ability to problem solve, improving our memory, you know, those types of things. And then just instinctively, I think we can feel the difference between when we're cool, calm, and collected and the types of conversations that we're able to have in that scenario versus when we're irate or we're really pissed off. You can just see the likely effectiveness of the outcome is very different. And so preparation, One of the essential pieces of preparation for me is trying to manage my own headspace so that I have the most likelihood of having a positive result come out of a conversation.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year. If you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I know for me, I always say I need to meditate more, because after I meditate, I always feel better. And I say, why don't I do this more often? It's just we need to prioritize it and make time for it. And so for people out there who have said, listen, Colleen, I've heard so many people talk about this woo woo psychology thing, but, you know, I just go in there, I write down my things, I go in and have my conversation for that person. How would you describe your headspace before having this meditation and mindfulness practice versus after? What changed?

It's a great question. I would say clarity and efficiency, right? So I think that those of us who are real, you know, when you. It's so funny, I hear people say, I don't want to be woo woo all the time. And we use this woo woo term. But ironically, most of the time when people say it to me, it's because they actually do want a little bit more of that in their Life. Right. They just don't want to admit it. Because I think what we are after is peace and calm. I think that the difference for me is that I can get to a similar place, but it's how exhausted I feel getting there and how much time and effort it takes to get there versus if I have meditated. And it really doesn't take long. Right? It's just a few deep breaths. I did it before this interview. Just a few deep breaths. I sit in my car. If I get to a particular destination, I sit there for just a couple minutes and take a few deep breaths. That's all I'm talking about. It doesn't have to be some grandiose, guided guru thing, but it's enough to help improve my effectiveness and how quickly I can help guide or get to a productive outcome.

Agreed. Yeah, I agree. And I can tell the difference between days when I do meditate and the days that I don't meditate. It's pretty clear. And when people say woo woo a lot of times as it relates to meditation and mindfulness, the term that they're searching for is neuroscience, because that's really what this is. The science has validated this. Like you said, we have the brain scans to prove it. There's a significant before and after, like, increase in gray matter, actually shrinking of the amygdala, so it's less responsive. All of these different things. It's really miraculous. I heard it described really well one time where they said if meditation and mindfulness, if they were a pill, it would be the most effective pill for our mental health out there. Really? And it's there, it's free. It just takes effort and it takes discipline and it takes practice. But once you start to do it, the response is palpable. So I really appreciate the fact that you are approaching this preparation not just, again, from the strategic side, but also what do you do to get your head in the right. I feel like I'm inadvertently shouting out all of these apps because we talk about Calm, which is an app. We talk about Headspace, which is a meditation app. That's the one that I use. But we're putting ourselves in the right position to succeed mentally because you can go through and do all of the appropriate preparation steps. You can have your strategy in place. You can know what you want to say, why you want to say it, and all those things. But if you lose your cool during the conversation, it's not going to come out right. And all of that preparation would be for not.

That's right. And you know, it's funny because I don't hear anyone questioning phenomenal athletes about their visualization practices or, you know, the way that they meditate and get their head in the right spot before a big game, but yet we somehow can't quite seem to entirely embrace it in a different context.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I love the fact that you simplified it too by saying sometimes it's just taking a couple of breaths. And when you really understand what meditation is, it's just choosing to focus on one thing and focus on, for instance, your breathing, for example. That's your centering thing, right? You can meditate in the middle of a conversation and sometimes, I mean, you should probably do that multiple times, especially if it's a really heated conversation. I know parents out there can relate to that. And we talk about it as the power of the pause. I know that when I get emotional, the first thing that I want to say is usually the wrong thing to say. And so when it's my turn to talk and I have that opportunity, I turn that into an opportunity to meditate, to center myself and look at it a little bit more objectively. And so I can approach the conversation in the way that the situation calls for.

Yeah, I think that's spot on. And I think that I have no better teachers than the 7 year old and 4 year old who are in my home constantly calling me on it when I do lose my cool, because they fortunately have social, emotional, learning classes at school and they know starfish breathing. So, you know, my little seven year old holds up her, her palm of her hand open like the five fingers are your starfish. And you know, taught me how to breathe in and breathe out and you know, and it's just comical when she says, mommy, you should have done your starfish breathing instead of getting angry like you are, right? And I feel about 2 inches tall and I don't want to feel that way again. So I am really going to recommit to my meditation practice because I don't want to feel like a completely horrible parent.

Listen, I know the feeling. Actually, I have a story about this too. And this, this will be a LinkedIn post eventually. But I remember when a couple of weeks ago, we were getting ready to go out in the car somewhere and so I asked Kai to run inside and get me a bottle of water. And so Kai's shoulders slumped and he's like, daddy, why do I always have to do things for you? But you don't do anything for me. Oh boy. Things I wanted to do.

And how was your mindfulness practice that day?

Oh, my goodness. I was not ready. But I felt a mistake coming from the pit of my soul. And so I just stopped and took a deep breath and I said, kai, can you think of any time that I've ever done something for you? When do I do things for you? And he's like, all the time. And then I took another deep breath and I said, so Kai, what was your question? Nothing. Then he goes and he gets the water. And everything that I would have said would have been wrong. I just had to ask two questions, time it the right way, and everything went the right way. But I had to take a step back and observe my level of emotionality. What is causing me to want to say what I'm about to say. I don't think that's a strategic thought. I think you're about to emote inappropriately. And again, being able to pause and observe what's happening internally more objectively, that was the key to success in that situation.

Yeah, that's right. I've heard mindfulness described as it's just the gap between the stimuli and the response. Right. And we're just trying to elongate that gap because most of the time we instantly knee jerk react. And if we can just elongate that gap. A few seconds is all you needed in your pause in that moment with Kai to choose your response and to ask two questions instead of how dare you say that I do so many things for you or whatever that was going to be. So I really liked sort of thinking about it in the framework of we're just trying to increase the gap between the stimuli and the response.

Absolutely. Oh, I love that. This is great. Well, let's move to anticipating objections. Yes. So this is something that comes up all the time in a different conversations. People are going to object, they're going to resist and we need to anticipate that. I think one of the most, when we're not in a difficult conversation, I think it's okay to admit that it's comical. We have these conversations and then somebody resists and we're like, what? They're resisting? I never would have seen this coming. Unbelievable. So let's talk a bit about anticipating objections. What is it that we need to keep in mind here?

Yeah, so, you know, the biggest shift for me was when I got out of my own way. Right. Like I shifted from viewing any negotiation from only my perspective to viewing it from the perspective of the other person. Right. So it's not why should they agree with me? Which is sort of, you know, my worldview of this is a great option. You should agree with me. Let me try to convince you of all the reasons why you should, which is really just a nice way of saying what your person in your training seminar wanted, which is, how can I control the outcome and impose my view? Right. That's only going to get us so far. We're going to hit a roadblock. We're going to find somebody like my brilliant, lovely husband who is very good at saying, no, you're not going to tell me what to do. But instead, if we look at it from, why shouldn't they agree with us? Why might they not? You know, what would be their objections? What would be their hang ups? What's going to get in the way of them saying yes to what we're proposing? And then, you know, classic debate style, you preempt their objections and you lay out the different reasons why you can overcome their objections.

Absolutely. And you know what's funny? As you said that because I'm a lawyer, I do this type of stuff, there was that little twinge inside of me that's like, ugh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to think about why they might object. And so it was a really interesting little psychological and emotional thing that happened within me even as I'm having this interview with you, because there was resistance. There's not even a difficult conversation happening. And I was already saying, colleen, I don't want to do this, but why I think for me, and this might be similar to other people, is that there is going to be an ego issue too. I think that my position is so superior that it is belittling to me to even consider opposing viewpoints. So my ego can get in the way of anticipating objections. And then we also have a self serving bias. Hey, I like that Kwame guy, think he makes some good points. So before I even think about somebody else's points that might be counter to my own, I'm saying, no, I'm not even going to do that because I know my points are so superior. Kind of blending that ego with that self serving bias. And so when you take a step back and think about it objectively as to why people don't take the time to anticipate these objections because they will come. I think there's a lot of soul searching that has to happen in our preparation, like we discussed before, to understand what our objections to anticipating their objections might be.

Yeah, man, that's deep it's important work, though. It really is. You know, and when you said ego, I think you're right. And also what came to me is identity. Right. Like, in what way does that challenge who you say you are and how you want to show up in the world? Right. Do you have to sort of acknowledge that there may be chinks in your armor to even begin to consider the perspective of the other person?

Yes. It's a humbling experience. It really is. It really is. And. And I know sometimes where. When I go through this type of process, when I'm actually preparing for a difficult conversation, I think one of the most humbling things is I might recognize that I'm wrong or I'm not seeing the complete picture. And I think it's important to try to get to that before the conversation happens, because for a lot of people, because of their ego, it's difficult for them to be vulnerable enough to make that adjustment during the conversation in front of the other person.

Yes, you are so right. And it made me think of our destination conversation earlier. Right. Which is to say that just because we plan our chart, our course, and we have our destination in mind, we cannot get so anchored and attached to our destination and our particular path that we are unwilling to adapt and flex and take a different route.

Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah. This is good. This is really good. And again, listeners, this is one of those things that's much easier said than done. It takes a whole lot of practice. And one of the things that I've found to be helpful is that if I'm able to make adjustments in my position, my stance, and my trajectory during the conversation, when somebody says something reasonable to me, it makes it a little bit easier for me to overcome their objections because they're less resistant because they say, well, I made a reasonable point, Kwame adjusted. Now I feel like I can do the same. I feel safe enough to do the same, too.

That's exactly right. Another piece I was going to talk about with anticipating objections is to concede where you can because you seem infinitely reasonable. And hopefully that gives you some credibility and some credit. You have a little bit of credit in the bank for when you need that reciprocated to you.

Yeah. And this could happen within the conversation or it could happen within the relationship. Because I think, again, if we get into this mindset where it's always zero sum, it be has to to be my way or your way, one way or the other, then we dig in our heels, because especially if we go back to the identity type of thing. I think we can blend these two points together. It's like I feel like I'm losing a part. If my ego is wrapped up in my position, then I feel like I'm losing a part of myself if I make a concession. So it hurts a whole lot more. But if I can show the person that I'm genuinely trying to solve this problem and work with you collaboratively to figure out the best way forward, I might, in the midst of that conversation, recognize the way that I thought was the best way actually isn't the best way. And you helped me to see that. I appreciate that conversation over down the road, they're going to be much more willing to reciprocate because they say, no, I don't need to fight for my value as a person. My self worth isn't wrapped up in this because I saw what this person did in this situation and I can do the same. It's less scary.

That's right. You know, I think the zero sum game only works in a transactional setting, right. If you're just a one and done. Because if you're constantly trying to win and by definition and zero sum, the other person has to lose, you're setting yourself up for an awful ongoing relationship, if it's even possible. Right. So anytime we have any sort of ongoing relationship or dynamic, we have got to think of ways to create a win win, maximize the pie, expand our options, or we're just setting ourselves up for awful relationships that aren't going to work.

Yes, yes, awful, unenjoyable relationships typified by unenjoyable conversations. It is not where you want to be. And then now, being mindful of time, we have our last point of staying curious. So this is something that the listeners are familiar with. Let's talk about how curiosity plays a role in facilitating good conversation.

Yeah. So I mean, I think it goes back to our ego and our identity of being willing to consider that we don't have all the answers, that we may not have the best answer. Right. And inviting, having wonder and curiosity and inviting other people to join the conversation of what are your ideas to solve the problem? Right. I wrote about this on LinkedIn. My 4 year old had a nightmare and she said that there were bees in her bed. Okay, it was 2 o' clock in the morning. I know there are no bees in her bed. Right. But denying her reality is not going to help me get my goal of getting back to sleep. So I said, oh wow, I just asked a question. I said, there are bees in your bed. And she said, yeah. And I said, well, what do you want to do about that? Right. Not, there's no bees in your bed, go back to bed, Right? That's the impose. That's the impose. My worldview, how do I coerce somebody? That's that perspective of, there's no bees in your bed, go back to bed. But then she'd cry and I wouldn't get to sleep, right? So instead I just confirmed her perspective. I didn't have to agree with it, but I acknowledged, right? Oh, you know, you think there are bees in your bed. Okay, well, what do you want to do about it? And she said, well, I want you to shoo them away. Which is a solution that would have never occurred to me, right? But here I am shooing imaginary bees out of her bed, and she was satisfied. And again, with the efficiency that we were talking about, I quickly got a solution that worked for her. It's not how I would have solved the problem, but it was no skin off of my nose to solve it the way that she wanted. And then we both achieved the objective of getting back to sleep quickly.

Wow, Kudos to you. As a father of a son who has nightmares all the time, your performance was impeccable. In the middle of the night. I have no skills. In the middle of the night, get out of my bed. Why are you here? That's really great. But I think it's a really great example too. Because what's interesting just in life, we always try to find the right answer or we try to find the truth, but that's kind of messy. There's a lot of perspective built into that. And so a lot of times people could look at the exact same situation, see it completely differently, but it's the true reality for each person. And so it's kind of like those dreams. I'm not in your head, but it was very real to you. But you think what I was talking about was a dream. That's what it is to you too. We don't necessarily need to be perfectly aligned in what the reality is. I just need to take the time to humbly accept what you believe to be true to show that I understand you and I've listened to you, and then we could still find a solution that works, even though we might disagree on the specifics of the situation too. So that was a brilliant example.

Yeah. And I think a lot, you know, it's important to deal with what is, but I think when we're trying to facilitate difficult conversations, problem solve, and move towards the future, and our future relationships. It's, you know, we don't necessarily have to resolve our different experiences or perspectives. Right. We, we need to get to a place where we can honor, acknowledge and hear and see each other's perspectives without necessarily having, well, one person's is right. You can both be right in your perspective and your experience and build on, well, how do we go forward from here? Which is sort of what I try to do in my work is I'm not going to resolve a long standing family dynamic from 30 years ago, but I can help you solve this particular problem so that we can move forward and look into the future. Right. I'm not going to try to convince my 4 year old there are no bees in her bed, but I'm going to enroll, I'm going to ask her how do we solve this problem. And if she gives me an idea that's workable for me, then great. Right? And I'm also teaching her that she can solve her own problems in the future so that she doesn't have to come to me each time. So that's the other piece about imposing our perspective or our will on somebody is if we're in a team, we're not encouraging them to take ownership and responsibility to solve their own problems or propose solutions to the team in the future.

Yeah. This is so good, Colleen. I really appreciate this. I want to keep going, but I promise the listeners I keep it around 30ish minutes. So that just means we'll have to have you back on, my friend. So, so before you go, can you let the listeners know again how they can get in touch with you and about your company too?

Yeah. Thanks, Kwame. It's been great. You can follow me on LinkedIn. ColleenByers on LinkedIn. I have a website, byersmediation.com and then my email and contact information is on that website as well.

Perfect. Colleen, thanks again for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thanks so much.

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