3 Tips to Better Understand Your Counterpart with Will Mahon

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Will, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, man, we're excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So right now I work as a senior training manager for Index Exchange, a tech company. We help monetize the Internet, essentially. I've worked in the L and D space for, gosh, a little over 15 years now, focused on sales, coaching, personal development, leadership development. So I'm really excited to dive into a conversation with you on, from really from a trainer perspective on motivators and kind of how that can help with the negotiation process. And super excited to see you again.

Yes, likewise, my friend. Yeah, it's like the roles have reversed this time because last time I was there training you and your team at DraftKings, and now here you are training all of my audience. Audience here. I'm excited to give my folks an opportunity to hear from you.

Full circle moment. Yeah, I'm excited. Thanks.

Cool, man. Well, today we are going to talk about motivation as it relates to negotiation. And I think this is something that's so important, but really not explored as much as it can or could or should be. So let's just get an operational definition on the table. When we're talking about motivation as it relates to negotiation, what does that mean to you?

Sure, I think we've all had an experience, whether it's negotiating with somebody or even just trying to sell your idea, trying to get on the same page. And we've had A conversation where we go, hmm, that didn't go so well. And then we've had those conversations where just immediately, Kwame, you and I might get on the phone together, hop on a zoom, and right away we're on the same radio frequency, we're speaking the same language, and I might have delivered the same message to you and to the person who we're on different radio frequencies with, and you say, hmm, well, what worked in that first conversation that didn't work in the second conversation? Maybe my sales pitch. My idea was the same, but it was received in two really different ways. And so the idea of bringing motivators into the negotiation process says if I can understand the values of the person opposite me, if I can understand and recognize what drives you, what excites you, what motivates you, what inspires you, and then if I can change my sales pitch, my product pitch, my idea pitch to make sure that we're on the same page, we're speaking the same language, we're on the same radio frequency, you know what's going to happen? We're going to have a really positive interaction that's going to be mutually beneficial for both parties. And hopefully we'll avoid those circumstances where you end that meeting or end that phone call and you go, hmm, it didn't go so well.

Absolutely. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And I think what's really interesting is that a lot of times we make the mistake of trying to use a one size fits all approach to persuasion and negotiation and communication in general. And again, what we're recognizing is that it takes a little bit of work to motivate and persuade effectively. And so in order to start adjusting your approach appropriately, what would you say is the first step?

Sure. I think the point you made there is worth repeating. Putting in bold, large font that a one size fits all approach to anything is limiting. I wouldn't say it's wrong, but I would suggest that it's incomplete. And we see that oftentimes with leaders will deliver a keynote or they'll have a team meeting or things like that, and it's me delivering my message to a variety of different people. And my message is going to resonate with people who are perhaps motivated by the same things that I'm motivated by. And there's going to be a percentage of the audience where maybe that message just isn't going to click. And that's just. That's par for the course when you've got a format like that. So really, I think part one is understanding that your sales pitch, your idea, your communication needs to be tailored to the person opposite you, no matter what. If it's going to be complete, absolutely. Yeah. And part two is to listen to really listen to not just what people are saying and how they're saying things, but to keep an ear out for some keywords, for some key clues and drivers for the person opposite you. People will tell you who they are. You've just got to pay enough attention to listen. So I'm a big believer that people will give you clues all along the way. But if you pay close enough attention, you can use that information to craft a really well rounded sales pitch, really well crafted idea, project pitch that'll land with just about anybody.

I love it. And it sounds like what we need to do is start with understanding. So we need to figure out what motivates them, what are their drivers, those type of things. And when you're observing somebody or listening to them or communicating with them, what are some of the things that you're looking for?

Oh, sure. Well, you know, the first is I'm a firm believer that people are much more likely to listen to you once they've been listened to. And that is exceptionally true in the negotiation process. How can I understand how to best serve you unless I've listened to you first? And it's our natural inclination to want to speak first. I've got this great product, I've got this great idea. I want your buy in, I want you to get on board. I'm so excited for this meeting that I've been preparing for and looking forward to. And I just want to talk and share with you. And so it's important to take a step back and to really make sure that you listen first. Because to reiterate that point, people are much more likely to listen to you and what you have to say once they've been heard. The second thing is, in that format, you'll get a lot of the clues, kind of the breadcrumbs that will help you craft a really thoughtful sales pitch, project pitch that'll resonate in the person opposite you. We tend it's natural to try to motivate others in ways with which we're personally motivated. So there are things that are motivating to me, and that is kind of my go to approach. And what I might find is, Kwame, if you open up the conversation and you tell me a little bit about who you are, your needs, your experience, your values, I might find that I've got to be a little bit nimble. Here, perhaps what I had planned to share with you, that might not be a good fit. I might need to be a bit flexible in crafting a message that's going to land with you and with your specific motivators.

Yeah, okay, this is great. Let me put you a bit on the spot here. Oh, sure. Let's use you as a case study. So let's say we are trying to sell you something or persuade you, motivate you, whatever it happens to be. How would you describe your personality type or your major motivators? And then how would that manifest itself in a persuasive conversation with you?

Sure. So typically, as I said, we try to motivate people in ways with which we're personally motivated. And what'll happen is, if there's a match there, magic happens right away. You click you're on the same page and you go, wow, that was a really easy sale. That was a really easy conversation. Sometimes you might find, okay, you know what, this is a bit of a struggle. You might find five or ten minutes into that conversation, like, this isn't going as I'd planned. Time to pull out plan B or plan C. The framework that I use and the framework that I teach actually comes from a gentleman named Edward Spronger. Edward Spronger was a German philosopher and psychologist back in the 19th century. So he wrote a book back in, gosh, I think it was 1920, titled the Types of Men. And what he found in his research at the time were that there were six main drivers and six main motivators of people. There's power, so influence, status, control. There's economic, which means money, but it also means return on investment. So it means if I give you my time, my energy, my efforts, my talents, what do I get back in return? That can be a sale, a commission. That can be praise, recognition, a promotion, a pat on the back. So some folks are motivated by that motivator. There's one called regulatory, which says it's important for me to have rules, processes, guidelines, there's a right way to do things, and it's important for me to be able to operate within these guidelines and within these parameters. There's altruism. So it's important for me and it's motivating for me to be able to use my energy and efforts to help the people around me. Servant leadership, that type of thing. There are some folks who are motivated by what's called the aesthetic motivator, which is creativity, balance, harmony. It's really form over function. Folks who like to Literally stop and smell the roses and have balance, creativity and harmony in all that they do. There's also a motivator called individualistic, which says it's important for me to have freedom, independence, autonomy. It's important for me to kind of be my own person and have a strong, well defined identity and perhaps go against the grain and really be my own person. And the final motivator is called theoretical, which is knowledge, facts. The more I know about a problem, the more I know about your solution, what you're trying to sell to me. The more facts, the more data that I have, the more likely it is that I can influence my environment for the positive. And so for me, it's important to gather facts and data because I can make a well informed decision that will help me in the long run. So those are the seven motivators according to Edward Spronger. And what I like to do and what I like to teach is to say, gosh, Kwame, if you and I met for the first time as I'm doing my research about A and I, let's pretend I'm selling you something, I would do my research about A and I. I would see the language that you use on your webpage, I would check out your LinkedIn profile, I would check out that about paragraph. How do you speak about yourself? How do speak about your business? What's important to you? I would very likely see some of those motivators come through in just how you write a blog post, how you describe your company in your LinkedIn posts. And if I got to the point where we're about to have our meeting and I'm like, I'm really not sure, I would craft a pitch that would include hints of all seven of those. So for instance, I'm going to perhaps turn the table on you a little bit here, if that's all right. Kwame, let's do it. I'll use ANI as an example. So if I were selling Ani and I was saying, hey, here's why you should partner with me and the American Negotiation Institute, I can say we are the best at what we do. It's power, influence, authority. We're number one, we're winners, right? Here's the return on investment that you and your employees can expect if you partner with us. So if you give us whatever the fee is, here's what you can expect. Here's the return on investment. Here's what you're going to see in your results for your company as a result of partnering with us. I could Say it's a passion of mine to help people. I want to help your employees be the best salespeople possible. And it is my mission to help you and your company have well developed salespeople. And just being able to help your team is a reward for me. And that's altruism. You can say, we've got certain guidelines, processes, structures that are tried and true. And if you implement what we teach you in our courses, these approaches are time tested. So if you stay within these guardrails of what we teach you, you'll see results. And that's, that's regulatory. And say everybody on our team has this level of expertise. We've been in the industry, we've been working with companies just like yours for this amount of time. In fact, we've worked with brand X, brand Y, brand Z. So we've got the knowledge to help your team grow. So that's that theoretical. And then you can say, each company is different. So the product at A and I, it's not off the shelf. We would customize our solution for you and for your needs. We would put together a program and a package that's going to deliver for your company specifically so you won't get the same negotiation training that the next company gets. We really want to work with you to deliver something that's customized so that's individualistic. And then the aesthetic piece could be. We would put together our training deck on your PowerPoint template. We would use your colors, your acronyms. So we would implement practices that fit into kind of the ecosystem of what you've already got of in terms place from your other sales programs at your company. So I would craft a sales pitch that touches in some way, shape or form on each of those motivators. And I know I'm doing a lot of talking, so I apologize. But then after I craft that pitch that hits on all of those, I would stop and I would see what the person opposite me responds with tell me more about. And how they finish that sentence will give you a clear indication of what is motivating to them or what they value. And you can take that and you can kind of run with it and craft the rest of your sales pitch.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict Resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. This is great. And I there are two main things that I want to follow up on there. The first one is this episode just became required listening for our sales team. So I appreciate that. Professional development for the sales team. This is great. The second thing is I love how you started broadly. If it's a situation where you're not 100% sure what would resonate the most with them. So you started broadly and then what you do is you wait to see how they respond and then you can follow focus from there on so which motivator seems to resonate the most with them and then you can double down on that one as you proceed because you're gathering data and refining your approach as the conversation goes on.

Exactly, yeah. So do your research upfront. You know, people will give you those clues if you do your research. Check out their blog posts, their LinkedIn page, their company page, check out a mission statement. You know, so do your research and come with a well informed perspective and kind of have that as plan A, but as plan B, be ready to pivot and be able to think about how can I take what I'm trying to share to sell and what does that look and feel like through the lens of these other motivators. It'll actually help me become a more well rounded salesperson, a more well rounded communicator, because I can deliver my message and I can have it prepared in a myriad of different ways rather than perhaps just the one way that I planned plan A. It's always good to have plan B through F, right?

No, that makes a lot of sense. We've talked a lot about the benefits of understanding the personality styles and major motivators of others. What benefit is there for you to get a better understanding of your own motivators?

Oh, absolutely. So I will share with you because I think this was the question you asked that I didn't actually answer. So my main motivator, my highest motivator is the individualistic motivator. So I recognize in myself it's important for me to have freedom, autonomy, self expression. And my second highest motivator is aesthetic, which is creativity, balance, harmony. And part of the Reason why I do what I do is I love the creative component behind it. Every time I'm delivering a training, if I'm having a coaching session with a coachee, it's different every time. And being able to speak to your listeners today is different than how I would deliver this in a classroom session. So it gives me the ability to share information, but in a way that's really true to my style and approach and it gives me that creative component. There are folks who are in the education space, learning and development space, who perhaps do it. They may have the same job title, the same role, the same responsibilities, but they come at it from a different motivation. So perhaps it's oftentimes it's altruism. You'll see a lot of altruism in the L and D space. I want to help you. Oftentimes you'll see it from the theoretical lens, like, I just want to pass on this knowledge to you. I've got this knowledge and I want to make sure that at the end of our time together, I've passed on this knowledge that's going to help you grow and develop. So it's interesting where you start to see people drawn in different ways or respond to things differently based on their own motivators. So I also know some of the shadows of being high individualistic are when my freedom or self expression is challenged. That gets me bent out of shape more than the next person. So I recognize at times when perhaps I'll have those moments where I feel a bit wrinkled or bent out of shape and I can take a step back and refer to my motivators and say, you know what, my motivators, what drives and excites me, what I value is being challenged in this environment right now. And so I'm not going to take it personally, but I'm going to recognize and identify this as my motivator and look at it with a sense of appreciation. So it's important just from a self awareness standpoint to go when I'm in an environment that I feel isn't optimally motivating, can I connect it to my motivators and perhaps identify where I'm not getting what motivates me in this space?

Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And self awareness is key, just in general, right? In general. And of course it's going to be helpful in these conversations as well, because the more you know yourself, the better you're going to be when it comes to leaning into those strengths as appropriate.

Absolutely. Having a framework like this allows this framework to operate as a neutral third. So if I'm in that negotiation, rather than it being you and me or Kwame didn't get me, or this negotiation went south because of you or me, you can use this framework as a neutral third party and say, my power motivation. I'm not getting the influence or the authority that I desire in this conversation. It's not Kwame, it's not me. It's this motivation. And now that I can use this framework as a neutral third party in that dialogue, it becomes less emotionally intense.

Yeah, absolutely. Because it helps you to not take things as personally, too. Right. Because if you're not getting what you need, hey, we can almost blame it on the motivator that you have. And then, of course, if you're. Let's say you're negotiating with somebody who is motivated by power, you can say, no, this person doesn't just want to dominate me and the situation. This is who they are. This is their motivator. I understand that. It's not about me. This is what they need, and this is what they want. So let's see how we can try to get them a little bit of what they want without infringing on the things that I want as well.

Yeah. This is a cheesy trainer line for your listeners. But there's the old saying of the golden rule, which is treat people the way you want to be treated. And above the golden rule, above gold is platinum. And they say the platinum rule is treat people the way they want to be treated. And that's one of those cheesy trainer lines. But it's always stuck with me. And I think it's especially true in negotiation. You know, if you can treat people the way they want to be treated, if I can adapt my message, my approach towards the person opposite me, and if I can give you what you want, what you value, what motivates you, if I can incorporate this, then this is going to be a more productive dialogue and very likely a more productive end result for both of us.

Yeah. I love it. And for a second there, Will, I thought you were going to say the other golden rule. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. The person with the gold, the person who has the gold makes the rules.

I've never heard that. I like it.

Somebody who, motivated by power, would say that this was really helpful. We really appreciate it. Before you go, what would you say is one tip that you would give the listeners right now that they can use to be more persuasive in their next conversation.

Yeah. You know, I think the tip that I would reiterate to everybody who's listening is to think about having your sales pitch, your message, whatever it is that you're delivering, and have it tailored in a few different ways. Have plan B, plan C, plan D in your back pocket, because oftentimes you get one shot. We all know you get one shot to make a first impression. More often than not, you get one shot to make a sale. If that first conversation goes awry, you might not get the second chance. Being able to pivot on the fly and to adapt to a variety of people opposite you is much easier if you think about how you can craft your message in a few different ways that speak to different motivators and have those at the ready so that you can be rehearsed and hopefully really well prepared in the event that the person that you're meeting with is motivated really differently than you are. And you might have to go to plan B or plan C. Love it.

Well, thank you, my friend. Really appreciate it.

Kwame, thank you for having me.

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