3 Tips to Get Your Business to the Next Level with Marianna Swallow

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Mariana, thanks for joining us today.

You're welcome. Great to be here, Kwame.

Yeah, it's great to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure, absolutely. So I'm Mariana Swallow. I live in Chicago, where my business is also located. And I am a professional executive public speaking coach, and I also teach presentation skills workshops in addition to being a professor of business and professional communications at Loyola University in Chicago.

Fantastic. And full disclosure audience. I wanted to have her on the show just so I could get a free consultation here. So everybody be ready for a masterclass. I'm excited for this. And so the three things that we're going to focus on today. First, we're going to talk about the importance of having the right mindset before these conversations. Next, we're going to talk about the approach to the conversations and the biggest mistakes people often make. And then we are going to end the conversation talking about the ask, which is often the most important part and a part. People make mistakes. So let's start off with the mindset.

Absolutely. So, Kwame, when people want to make a persuasive speech or, you know, something like a sales call, the common knowledge around it or the common thought is I have to convince them. And when you set yourself up thinking that I need to convince something, when you're going into a persuasive speaking situation, what you're really doing there is kind of setting up an adversarial us versus them, me versus them. And here's what I ask people to think about when they approach it like, oh, I have to convince them of fill in the blank, or I'm going to convince this person to fill in the blank. If you step back and just think about yourself in an everyday context, think about how difficult it is for you yourself to change your mind about something. How easy is it, Kwame?

It's not easy.

Right, right. Even when we want to. Right. Like the New Year's resolutions. I'm going to go to the gym every day. And then, of course, you know, we don't. It's difficult to make a shift. So when you think about how difficult it is to change your own mind about something, then I want you to take that and kind of apply it to a communication situation. How easy do you think it's going to be to convince your audience of something?

Yeah, it's going to be harder, especially when they're seeing it more as a combative type of situation.

Right, right. And I run into this with some of my students and some of my clients where they will come to me for help prepping a speech, and they'll say, okay, I want to convince my audience to blank. And I say, hang on, let's nuance that. Remember, we talked about this? You can't convince someone, so let's find another way to say that. And then the next thing, no matter who it is, they always say, okay, how can I get them to. And then fill in the blank. So here is the mindset. Here's what we need to do when we think about being in a persuasive situation. First of all, I find it really helpful to kind of drop the expectation of convince them to. Because again, it's difficult to convince our own selves to do things differently. But also, if you think about how things change, whether it's our minds, a system, a change you want to make at school, change is not instantaneous. Change happens on a continuum. Right. It's slow. There's a process involved. I mean, good example for everything that's going on in the world right now. What's the cliche? The wheels of justice turn slowly. So rather than going in thinking, I'm going to make this person go from A to Z, shift your mindset and give yourself different words that will help you frame your approach. And I recommend things like, can you help them nuance a viewpoint? Can you help them think differently? Can you help them understand? Fill in the blank. So when you give yourself a different directive, rather than, I'm going to convince my audience to, or I'm going to get them to, you know, it takes down the intensity a little bit. You use the perfect word, combative, so it takes down the intensity of it, but also it gives you more realistic expectations, takes your demeanor down into a more conversational place. Right. And when you. I will argue that when you approach a speaking situation thinking, I want my audience to understand blank, or understand the benefits of blank, or understand why this is blank, or, you know what, I'm going to share some information, and I want to help nuance their viewpoint or nuance their opinion. You're coming from a better place. You're coming from a stronger place where you will be more likely to be open and connect with your audience, and they will be more open to listening to you as well.

There's so much I enjoy about this, and I like the fact that, first of all, we're setting more practical goals, more realistic. Yeah, I think that's really important because then it'll help you to feel more encouraged because you set a smaller goal that is actually achievable pretty soon in a conversation. Now you're more encouraged to stay in it and stay positive. So I think that's a really great point. And it affects the way that other people look at you as well, because you're not saying, hey, you're wrong. Let me educate you, because I am intelligent. You are not, which creates that combative type of thing. No, this is more of a collaborative approach where we're saying, oh, maybe you could approach it a little bit differently. I think that's really powerful.

Absolutely. And I love that word, Kwame, the collaborative approach. And when you come from the perspective of, I'm on the same side as my audience, even if you don't necessarily agree with them, because I know we just had an election, political scenarios, it's very difficult. But even something as simple. As I mentioned, I listened to Jason on your podcast, a sales scenario situation. Of course you want to convince them to buy, but you want to be on the same page with them and approach the talk as if, well, this is a shared experience. We're exchanging information here versus that combative, like you said. I love the way you put it, Kwame. You know, you're wrong, I'm right, and you're going to listen to me and I'm going to convince you, and that just isn't going to fly most of the time.

Exactly. One of the things that I liked, I think it was the book Crucial Conversations.

Yes. I love that book.

Oh, it's a fantastic book. And one of the things they talked about was was deepening the collective pool of knowledge. And during the process of a conversation, what you can do is go in there with the intent to share and at the same time learn from the other person. And we are learning together. And even again, like in a sales situation, you can still frame it collaboratively because I need to learn more about your business in order to see if this is a fit at all. And you need to learn about me. Right. And so I really like this approach. And when we think about this, I think people are going to listen and they're going to say, yeah, yes, I agree, that makes sense, but it is easy when it comes to understanding it, but sometimes difficult in application. And so when it comes to adopting this mindset, what are the biggest barriers that people face?

So? Well, like I said, it is kind of the common, what I call the party line of what a persuasive speech is. I have to convince them. So having that preconceived notion is one of the barriers, but another one. And if you don't mind, I'd like to talk about the second point I wanted to make is that even if we shift the mindset, like, okay, I'm going to nuance or I'm going to share information, the next pitfall that happens is even when speakers take the time and prepare, they come out. If they haven't planned their approach, what happens is they will come out on one of two ends of another spectrum. And here's what I've seen. They will either even though they've said, okay, fine, Mariana, I won't go, I'm going to convince them, I'll take a different mindset, they still come out too stubborn is what I call it. Like, even though they say, okay, fine, Mariana, I'm not going to pretend I'm convincing anyone or I'm going to approach it the way you said, they will still plan the speech or the presentation to be fact based. This is right. This other thing is awful. I'm going to show you why it's awful. So they kind of keep that combative mindset, even though they might say, oh, yes, I'm approaching this like an exchange of information, or I want to nuance their opinion or inform them of the issues going on in our city or our district. They still then plan it with that kind of us versus them language. What's happening in my district is bad. Your politician is wrong. Mine's right now, here's all the reasons you need to vote for him. So they keep that combative mindset. And again, like, we just said after talking about the mindset you have, an approach like that is not going to work. Even if you've convinced yourself that you have changed your approach because you're still keeping that kind of combative. I'm right, you're wrong. So that's what I call the too harsh. The opposite end of the spectrum that clients come to me with is they have a goal, whether it's to increase attendance to a triennial gathering that also serves as a fundraiser or to approach a conference of social workers and find 10 social workers who will don their time to your not for profit. These are actual cases I've worked with. And when, you know, one end of the spectrum we have too harsh on the other end when we have people being too soft or too kind, I guess is what I want to say. What I see in this too soft approach is that the speaker will plan to say all the benefits and all the good stuff and why they're not for profit or why their organization is so great. And then that's where they leave it. They think if I work with this audience, you know, I'm at a conference of social workers, of course they'll want to donate time. Then the speaker goes to talk to the social workers and he thinks that by saying how great his organization is that 10 social workers will sign up at the end of the talk to volunteer when he didn't even say anything about volunteering. I've also seen this with a not for profit I worked with that was trying to increase their attendance at the triennial gathering and build up support for the fundraiser. And they even kind of jo with me that their template was we get in front of people, we say, hi everyone, we think you're great. Our organization is great. Let me remind you, you're great. Bye. And it's the same expectation. Like the person who spoke to the social workers, they're just saying how great everything is and they hope that the audience will then magically fall in love with their organization and sign up or give money or whatever. So what do you think are the problems with each of those scenarios I presented?

Well, with the first one, it's a turn off from the beginning. You're preaching to the choir. The people who like it will like it more. The people who don't like it will be just averse to whatever it is that you're saying very, very quickly.

Absolutely.

Then on the other side, people are going to say, hey, that felt good, great. And that's it, right?

It's oh, you have a nice organization. And you guys do good work and you like me. Thanks. I'm going to go get my free coffee or punch or whatever they have at the conferen. Yeah. So this is again, with these two ends of the spectrum. What people are missing is the ask, but also stipulating, why are you there and what do you want? So when you're in a situation like that, let's use these examples, speaking to a not for profit, increasing support for the triennial gathering, increasing support for fundraising and asking for money to add to the funds. You need to be really clear on why are you there. I know in that example, that sounds very obvious, but in my other example, the gentleman who, by the way, huge published author, now has had his own show on msnbc. Yes, I was his coach. He actually wasn't clear on what he wanted, even though he prepared his speech knowing that he wanted to get some social workers to volunteer with his organization, because he structured that speech around, look at how great my not for profit is. Here's the work we've done, here's the results. He forgot that the real reason he was there was, yes, to raise visibility for his organization, but also he need to have the ask in there. And because he lost sight of we need volunteers, it actually weakened his speech. Now, I'm happy to say that before he got to this conference, I did get to coach him and he did get that ask in there. And it made the speech so much stronger because it was clearer and it was more focused because. Kwame, what do you think is the issue? If, let's say, I came to talk to you about my business and I just give you this grocery list of why marianaswallow.com is such a great business. What would you think?

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable, and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly, and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more. And now back to the show. I would think that sounds great, but I wouldn't know what to do next.

Exactly. And audiences you made the perfect point. Audiences need to know what to do next. And I noticed this not just with my clients, but in all the work I do. Something happens to us as we get older and we go through school and we get our jobs done. We think that we're not supposed to be too obvious, that I'm speaking to a room full of adults. Of course they're going to know I want them to volunteer. Of course they're going to know they need to open their checkbooks, but they don't. Audiences really need you to tell them what they're supposed to do or what you want them to do or what options are available to them. And something people, aside from advertisers and marketers forget. We need to hear something three times before we actually buy into it or buy. And also, adults have a very short attention span, even more so these days because of guess what? The Internet, Twitter, phones, yada, yada. So if you think you're being too obvious, don't worry about it. I'd rather someone takes that chance. And I say to myself, yeah, yeah, I got that. Versus. Huh. That was a nice speech. What am I here for? You know? Or. Okay, I guess I'm gonna go get my coffee now.

Absolutely. And the thing that comes to mind, Marianna, is that there's a reason why people don't do this. There's a reason, and a lot of times it's going to be something that is psychological or emotional that gets in the way. And especially if somebody is on the too kind or too soft type of spectrum, what they're doing is they want to keep it very positive, but they don't want to risk rejection, because if they make that clear request, then they are setting themselves up for the potential of rejection. So they choose failure on their own terms by not making the request instead of putting themselves in a position where they at least have a chance to succeed. And again, that's the reason why we named it the other podcast, Ask With Confidence. Right. Podcast is all about that, because if you don't have that, you're not going to get much. So let's transition to the Ask. So again, we're talking about it now. What are the things that we need to keep in mind when it comes to making these requests?

Great question. So here's my advice for the Ask in a nutshell. Well, short, simple, to the point. I do want to blow that out a bit because again, we have a couple ends of the spectrum. What I like to say about the Ask is, again, first of all, when you're preparing your speech or your sales call or whatever it is, you want to be clear, very clear with yourself on what it is you're asking. So, for instance, for the one not for profit I worked with, we had a triennial gathering. There were two parts. It was please attend the triennial gathering and please support our fundraising either by donating or by asking someone else, you know, from your church to support us. And so they had to be really clear on that because again, they had spent years kind of bumbling around in this. Well, maybe if we tell everyone how great we are, they'll open their checkbooks. And it wasn't happening. And I'm happy to say that after I did a workshop with them, so much better. And they hit their numbers that they wanted to. So that's the first thing is being clear. But when you're being persuasive, the other thing to know. And a lot of people, if you're not taught this, we don't know this. I know I didn't know this early in my career, what you want to do is limit the alternatives you give people. So when you're creating an ask. And I think the one example I just gave is a great example, because it was, can you attend the gathering? No. Okay, well then can you give 20 bucks to our fundraiser, Whatever it is, give your audience an alternative or two.

But.

But limit them. Because, Kwame, let's say I'm trying to sell you my services and you and I have this great call. You like me, I like you. You like what I'm doing. But then I say something like, well, you can have a six week coaching, or you can have a three week coaching. If six isn't enough, you can have nine. Or we can get five of your colleagues together and we can do a workshop. If a workshop isn't good, get three colleagues. We'll do a small group coaching, which has different pricing, or if you want one presentation work done, you and I can meet for 90 minutes. What do you do with that?

You get confused and leave.

Right, right. And I think people often forget or underestimate how easy it is for your listeners to get overwhelmed. That's why the one not for profit. I think they had a great ask once they formulated it. It was, can you attend the gathering and. Or can you donate 20 bucks? Or whatever it was. And those were the choices. So, for example, if you look at political campaigns or any kind of political measure, even when there's like a measure coming up on a ballot locally, whenever the people who are Working on that. Whether it's the politicians or their staff, the way they message is pretty clear. If they call someone and say, can we have your vote? Oh, I already voted. Okay, great. Can you then donate or make calls? And then that's it. They don't ask you to do 25 things for the candidate. There's one or two. It might be something as simple as.

Well.

Will you please join our email mailing list? They always limit it because if you dump a bunch of stuff on your listener, no matter how much they like you, you're going to overwhelm them. So keeping the ask clear and simple, giving alternatives, but limiting them, I think even three might be pushing it. Two is my favorite number with that. Five. Way too many.

Exactly. It reminds me of the studies on the paradox of choice where they talked about. The study was with jellies. They said, okay, here are the jellies. You have one choice. And then it showed a certain success rate when it came to the amount of sales that they got. And then said, here, here are seven choices. And people were like, oh, wow, seven choices. Fantastic. And then at the end of the day, there were significantly fewer sales. So a lot of times I think it's born of good intention. And strategically, it makes logical sense. But we have to remember we're not logical beings in that strict economic type of way. That's why we have behavioral economics, which is the blend of psychology and economics. And so a lot of times we will respond in surprising ways. And so simply reducing the choices that people have, one of the easiest ways to make it more likely for them to actually make a choice.

Absolutely. It's the way you phrase that, and it's right. I like being able to limit the choices. It reminds me, you have kids, Kwame, so you know how this goes, goes. You don't ask your kid, what do you want to do today? It's do you want to go to the park or do you want to fly a kite? That's it. You give them a choice. Two choices. Let's go.

Well, I would. In that situation, we have to at least put naps somewhere in there.

Right? Right, Right. Oh, that's a given. That's a given.

Exactly. And again, I'm biased here, but my undergrad degree is in psychology, so I love nerding out on these topics. And when it comes to negotiation, conflict resolution, communication, the more you can understand psy, the more you're going to understand yourself and other people. And you can create strategies and tactics on the fly based on what you're seeing so strongly recommend that. And with the time we have left, I want to give you an opportunity to give the audience a bit of a challenge because we've talked about a lot of great things here. If people want to be more persuasive in their communication, what is one thing that you would suggest that they do.

To start, Ooh, there's so many that come to mind. Because I thought of two right away, I'll start with one and if you want to hear one more, I'll give it to you. My first challenge would be look at something you have coming up down the road, whether it's next week, next month, or within the next three months, within the next 90 days, something work wise that either you have been afraid to ask for or avoiding. Try that. Give yourself a tiny challenge. My other suggestion would be if you have something coming up at work, might be outside of work, like maybe you're involved with your children's school or a place of worship. But any point you want to get across, whether you have a presentation coming up or you'll be part of a meeting or a discussion soon, I want you to challenge yourself to see if maybe there's something you can ask for that might seem a little difficult right now. And this could be something work related or maybe if it's something you do in your free time, like the PTA or sometimes they're called the PTO or something. @ your place of worship, if you're on a committee and you really don't have time for it anymore, talk to someone about joining or helping you. If you need help around the house and you haven't asked, asked, because this is another thing, Kwame, that most people don't see. Unless again, we're taught this. Even when you ask for something simple, you're being persuasive. So we're persuasive all the time. We just don't know it.

Exactly. I love it. This is great. And so before you go, let the listeners know again how they can get in touch with you and the work that you doing.

Absolutely. So my website is marianaswallow.com that's M A R I A N N A swallow like the bird S W A l l o w dot com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn.

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Kwame. This was a joy.

Congratulations. You've just joined and Elite Club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you. You'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.