A Life of Progress, Not Perfection With Monica Packer

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I. We believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. So, Monica, how would you get us started? By telling us about yourself and what you do.

First off, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome coming on for me because I love your show and I've been listening to it for a while, you know, in preparation for this, and your guests you have on are just so incredible and just have, you know, these amazing resumes and, and I can feel a little bit inadequate coming in. So I'll just start by saying I hope that this will help reach someone who also is like, what about me? Like, do. Am I at the caliber of even just listening to the show? Does. Do I qualify? And yes, you do. And you know, my. My primary work is I'm a podcaster on a show called About Progress, and we're a personal development show. But people might not know it's not podcasting. It's a business and it takes a lot, a lot of work. And I've been kind of in my own little business school for the past six, almost seven years now of making this business happen. But as part of that, I'm also primarily home with four little kids. I'm about to have my fifth and so I've got that as well. Those whole set of responsibilities that can make my time extremely limited and, and flexible and all those things. But I love what I do on all sides and I love what we get to talk about today because it's totally changed every part of my life, business included.

This is great. And listeners, I wish you could have heard that first episode because we. It was magical. And what we're going to do is we are. We're not going to recreate the magic because that's not possible. We're going to make new magic today, and it's going to be even better. And so today we're talking about perfection and the myth of perfection. And when it comes to negotiation, there are a couple of aspects that I want to explore here. Just first of all, recognizing that conversations, human interaction, relationships in general, these are messy. And perfectionism will hold us back because when we see a little bit of that mess, we'll assume something's wrong. So that's one thing. But then we can say, all right, I can see how perfectionism is holding me back. How do I overcome it? And then this approaches the other angle of negotiation, which is the internal negotiation that you have to have with yourself to overcome that and make those changes. So there are going to be two angles that we explore here. So, Monica, how would you start us off with just your thoughts on perfectionism and share a little bit of your journey?

I think it starts with my story because that's honestly was the. The fork in the road for me and even getting down this path and now becoming, you know, an expert in perfectionism. I was totally the stereotypical Perfectionist the first 20 years of my life. I thought it was a thing to aspire to, you know, the thing to put on the resume or the thing you say in a job interview, like, tell me something good about you, like, what are your good qualities? I'm a perfectionist. You know, that was one of the top things. I really think I aspired to be one all out of good intentions. I just wanted to be a good person, a good fill in the blank, you know, whether that was a student, eventually a teacher, you know, a mom, like, all those things. But what I learned in my young twenties is perfectionism. It follows a model, and it follows an all or nothing model. How many of us say that I'm all or nothing? Right? And again, we think of that as a good thing, but it truly isn't. And we're going to talk a lot more about why that is. I'm just going to start with the story part, but that all or nothing model came at a high cost for me. Like, yeah, I was basically a straight A student at a really hard university. Yeah, I was like, top of my. Top of my field, I guess, and all my extracurricular activities, you know, I, yes, I could perform at high levels, but I paid a really, really heavy cost. And that cost was almost my life. I got to this Point where I had really, and I'm going to say it honestly, like life threatening eating disorders, mental illness, that all came at the cost of this high achieving mindset that I was in. And then from there I went into recovery zone. Like I was wanting to get better. I didn't want to pay those prices anymore. But in my pursuit of that recovery, I went to this other side of perfectionism that I didn't know was perfectionism. And for me, that was standing on the sidelines of my own life. I could still fulfill my responsibilities, you know, as a professional and within my roles at home, but for myself, for my own aspirations and ambitions, for my own goals, personal growth, everything was left on the sidelines because I thought the only way to change and to grow in huge ways that I really wanted to, I thought that could only happen through the all or nothing model. And that cost was so apparent to me, and I. And I didn't want to pay it anymore, and I couldn't pay it anymore. I literally could not do it without sacrificing my family or my job. Like, you know, I knew the other costs could come not just internally, but then I got to another fork in the road where I again was extremely depressed and in scary ways again. And I was really confusing because I thought, like, what gives? You know, I'm. I'm trying to just be realistic and have no expectations. I'm still trying to be a good person. But what was happening is I was still lost and stuck to perfectionism. And it took a really good therapist who pointed that out to me. I didn't think I qualified anymore because I wasn't achieving. You know, and really what it was was I was on the nothing side of the all or nothing model. But the roots of both sides of that spectrum and everywhere in between, the roots are the same. And that I was placing my identity and my worth on my outcomes, whether I had them or I did not have them, they replaced me. I think a lot of people can relate to that. And a lot of people may be surprised to hear you might actually be dealing with perfectionism a whole lot more than you think. Whether you're on that hamster wheel of just trying so hard to constantly bring up achievements and reach certain targets that, by the way, even when you do reach them are fleeting and they go away. You know, they don't stick around forever, or you're just waiting on the sidelines and, you know, figuring that out for myself came at that pivotal time in my life where I knew I didn't want my life to necessarily look different. Like I wanted my same responsibilities, I wanted my same children. Like I wasn't ready to like, jump ship, you know, but I wanted it to feel different. And in order to do that, I had to find a new way of thinking and being and striving. But outside of that all or nothing model, that was really terrifying. But the nutshell version of what's come from that after, you know, seven years of this, now this grand, what's turned into a grand experiment, it was totally accidental, is I can honestly tell you I have grown exponentially, exponentially outside of the all or nothing model than I ever did as the overachieving perfectionist. And of course, as I ever did as the underachieving perfectionist. It's advanced every area of my life and some that are pretty surprising, like, I never counted on first.

Monica, I want to say thank you for sharing that. I know it's probably not easy to always share your story in such a vulnerable way. So I appreciate that. And it's like a part of you that you can control, you can manage, but I don't know if you feel the same way, but it's almost like you can't fully shake it. It's just about learning to recognize it and put it in its place when it comes up. And one of the things I want to explore briefly is what impact did perfectionism have on your relationships?

You're bringing up the surprising way perfectionism affected my life the most. When I was that overachieving kind, I was on a pedestal. That really felt good, but it was also very separate from people in my life. An example of this is when I did hit rock bottom. You know, as the overachieving perfectionist. Nobody knew. Literally no one. My roommates, my best friends, my parents, my. My future husband, who we were best friends at the time, you know, I. It was. I just kept people at arm's length. I didn't want them to see anything but the straight A's or, or how good I was at certain things or the way my body even looked, you know, but then that was true later on. What the. The price I paid for perfectionism. Even as an underachieving perfectionist, what were my relationships? When I talked about some rock bottoms I had, those rock bottoms were the way I was showing up to my little kids. Like ways that are totally not my personality at all. I'm not, I typically not like really a high strung or prone to tempers or, you know, anger, but I was, it was just like, it was just like a Different person. I didn't recognize who I was. And at the same time, at the same breath, I was still putting people at arm's length, you know, they weren't allowed totally in. And that's been. What has shifted so much in my life is I know better now that it's showing me and in, you know, in within my relationships that makes a relationship. That's. That's been the surprising shift, too. There is. That's the part of my life that's way better. Like, that's. That's the. The part never expected. Like, wow. Like, getting off that perfectionism train is. It's going to dramatically change my relationship. But it has.

Yeah, it's. It's really shocking, honestly, because I think with perfectionism, it forces you to focus on yourself. It's in a lot of different ways. And we don't stop and recognize the impact that our mindset is having on other people. And I know with a lot of people who struggle with perfectionism, I know I've done this in the past too. It's you. You have this really critical internal voice. But then that critical internal voice turns into criticism of others as well, because you start to hold them up to unrealistic standards, and if they, It's. If they're not living up to those standards, like that same criticism that you give to yourself, you start to give to others. And there's almost like a sense of jealousy of the freedom that other people have. You just messed up and you are emotionally. Okay, hold up, let me criticize you. You cannot be okay with this.

That's true. And you know, my husband and I were actually talking about this the other day because there's, like, been some behind the scenes stuff happening on my podcasting, you know, path right now of people just, like, not owning their mistakes and it just being, like, really hard to work through. We just talked about that. That's part of it. Like when. When you get off that perfectionism train, you can own your mistakes better and just say, you know what? Like, I actually did this yesterday. I forgot to pay somebody and they texted me and said, hey, I didn't see that come through. I was like, oh, my gosh. And instead of being like, oh, my assistant, you know, that's her job. I. I'm sorry, or oops, you know, I tried and it didn't go through. Like, no, I'm just gonna say, you know, I forgot. I am so sorry. Let me take care of that right now. And just like, how much better that feels on both sides. But that's what we do with that shielded perfectionism. We just, we want to hide all the weakness, but instead that just, ugh. It doesn't feel good on both sides, but it's also just setting yourself up to fail in bigger ways. And as we know with within life and business relationships, that's the heart of all of it.

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There's like, that's a snapper one right there. I that needs to be cross stitched because that's so true. It's so sneaky perfectionism. And I feel like people get caught up in that cycle on both sides. You know, like if they're on that hamster wheel and they get there and then they're like, I can't stop. I have to keep going. And it has to be at this rate because that's what I did to get here. And in order to stay or to get to the Next point, I have to stay here or for the people who are on the sidelines, who are like, that's going to come too high a cost. So I'm not going to try like that, because then that means I have to maintain it. You're right. That's a really sneaky one.

And it's one that people don't see. And the. The thing that we have to do is we have to. We have to work through it in some way. It takes work in order, in order to overcome this. And especially when you think about it just from a psychological perspective, we have the phenomenon of neuroplasticity. So the more times your brain goes through a certain thing, the more your brain is able to do that thing in a more effective kind of way. It's like your brain literally changes with activity. So what we're going to do is we're going to run to run into a situation where we have 20, 30, 40 years of repetition. Perfectionist. We are well practiced. And so now we have to undo all of those neural connections by creating new pathways. And it is really tough. And so can you walk us through that journey of how you were able to make those changes?

And it's really reflective of the journey that I help. I coach primarily women who are on that path. And, you know, it can take on a couple of different shapes, whether it's professionally or just personally. But, yeah, I see this every day. I work with people who are at the beginning, in the middle, and advancing through it. And I was just talking to a woman about this last night who was really struggling with just the very first step, which is wrapping your head around there being a different way, that if you start with compassion and acceptance, if you start with allowing failure to be not only a part of the process, but one of the most important parts of the process, if you're willing to see that the small wins building over time is how we change deeply and in dramatic ways. That's the very first step. It's that mind shift. And that, honestly, is the hardest part, I think, because we are holding so firm to the models we've been both taught and. And given or modeled. I guess the models we've been modeled that this is the way we change. This is the way you become a success. It is. It's like trying to swim upstream, you know, in a really, really rapid river. I'm just like, thinking of, like, if you've ever been river rafting, it's like, basically, it's really. It seems impossible in the beginning, and it kind of is right. And that's where you really do need to start. And I know that, to be honest, I have a hard time when people only talk about mindset. I think it is so important, but we need the practical side to it. So don't worry. We're going to get there. But that is where we have to start. And the reason why is because if you don't believe in something, you're not going to do it. So the first place I start with people is they both have to believe in and practice what I call the process. And the process is so simple, but it's small. Wins build over time. And this is what is the progress model. It's growing outside of perfectionism. And as part of that, like I said before, these mindset shifts of allowing failure to not be just part of the process, but an essential part to the process. How that looked personally for me was, you know, seven years ago when I was like, oh crap, I'm still a perfectionist. And it's ruining my life. Every part of my life, like the most important parts of my life are still being distracted by this. I just, you know, I know I had to change for me. I. I decided, how about I lean into mediocrity? Like, what if I just say I'm going to put on mediocre Monica? Like, that's my goal. I'm just going to do things without the outcome being the point. I'm going to try. And that alone is what just that mindset. If I'm allowed to just try, I'm allowed for things to not go well. I'm allowed for nothing to be successful. That alone is what started the bigger picture of my life changing completely. So let's start with the mindset. Own. Own what it really looks like to grow outside of perfectionism. It's. It's the truer, more sustainable way that belief has to be. It has to be part of it.

100 and you're so right. And going back to your metaphor of the stream, I think that's so powerful because it's difficult to swim upstream. But I think what makes it even more difficult is that a lot of times we don't even realize that there's a stream going in this one direction, not even realizing that there is another way that is possible. So it's such a massive paradigm shift that I think people can be almost blind to it. It's like, how do I change something that I didn't know was changeable? Right? And I think just bringing that level of awareness to some of those cognitive distortions and the mindsets that we do have is the first step recognizing that there's another way. But we often miss it.

Friends, this isn't just Monica. Like, I hate talking in third person, but it's not just me. Like, it's not just me. Like, oh, I tried this out and you can trust me. This is actually science research backed, like the best scientists of our times, the best sociologists, the best psychologists. And let's go back to one that is like. Like one of the fathers of psychology is Carl Rogers. This is what he says. Okay. This is what he says. Quote, the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change. That's why that belief matters so much. Like, making space for the humanness in us does not prohibit us from growing exponentially. It's actually the very way to change in the ways we want.

This is so great. And so a couple things. First of all, I agree. And second of all, I love that you're citing Carl Rogers because of course, he's a Buckeye.

Oh, I didn't know that.

People don't know that, but he is an Ohio State grad. That, hence brilliance, you know, it explains everything.

Yes, yes.

So this is great. You're spot on. And I think it's really important to talk about the science too, because it's not just the fact that, oh, this is just something I think or you think or something. No, this is peer reviewed, extensively researched. That, like the process that you're talking about, like, there's science behind it. So, so important. And so you talked about like the mindset part and then you mentioned talking about making it more practical. Let's talk about that practical element too.

Okay. This is where the rubber meets the road. And it's where that belief is really going to be challenged because right away you're going to want to go for the big steps, the big action. And I think a part of that is because there's something so alluring about the idea of overnight success. And to be honest, that's part of the upstream, like the upstream swim I still have going on all the time. I'm like, oh man, I would sure love to be an overnight success now. Like, it would be so nice for that to happen. But that's a false idea. It really is. If you really break down people and their success, there's a whole lot more story to it. And also if there wasn't, there's a big fallout pretty darn quick after that. Overnight success. So anyway, let's talk about that another time, but that there's science behind that too. But the rubber meets the road is where you have to take that belief of small wins building over time and failure being a part of the process and put it to action in that same way. I mean, it's actually quite simple. It's not rocket scientists. It's putting in small action. Now I've actually gotten really into habit formation as part of this. Never expected to or to be honest, wanted to. But that's an example of how this really does work. If we're going to just talk about, like, one piece of this puzzle, right, is if you want to have it to really stick, you don't start with the end version of what you want. You start with a much smaller version of it that creates a foundation that allows for consistency and growth over time. And that's how you create a habit that actually sticks, is by starting with a smaller version of it, one that requires very little energy. And, I mean, that's just one example of this. But if I were to just tell people, like, maybe more of a big picture way of practically doing this is, you know, this is gonna be a scary way of saying it. So maybe you can just take the language and make it your own, but be willing to lean into the mediocre a little bit. You know, just try it on, test it out, actually just do an experiment. Like, I accidentally did just say, like, what would it be like if compassion were part of. Of the way I worked on myself or my business? What would happen if I decided the small ways that I worked on myself and my business could count and that I could, like, objectively look at my mistakes and. And help them and let them teach me what I need to do differently instead of getting down that shame spiral. And what could that look like? And just even the smallest ways. I mean, let's go to Greg McEwen. I love his book Essentialism, but Effortless I love, too, because that one really helped me simplify a ton of what I was still overcomplicating of what was essential in my life. And really, he sees the heart of it there is. Let's. Let's make it easy. What if it didn't have to be so hard? Like, what if we really asked ourselves those questions, you want to have it? What if there was a simpler version of that habit that would create the feeling that you're still needing or the support you're needing? What if you need a business plan? Well, what's a simple version of that business plan? What if, you know, you need a pitch that you can have? But what would the simplest version of that be? Let's. Let's start there with that kind of experiment.

This is. This is great. And I'm smiling a lot because it's just, you know, the. The perfectionist inside of me is just.

Freaking out a little bit.

Yes. And I think back about what you were saying about habits, and I think I mentioned this last time we chatted, too. Like Charles Duhigg, the Power of Habit. We have atomic habits. James Clear. Like, I read all of these books, and they say, yeah, you could probably build, like, one or two habits, really, in the course of a year. And I was like, that's cute. They didn't study Kwame Christian. I'm going for 10. And then at the end of the year, I had no habits. The thing that's so frustrating. And I remember specifically James Clear saying in the book, he said, sometimes the best way to start a habit is by lowering your standards. And I was like, oh, I feel nauseous hearing that. But that's the perfectionist. But we have to recognize that the perfectionist isn't there to help us to improve. That's what it seems like is really there to keep us trapped and unhappy ultimately. And you're right, simply lowering your standards strategically so you can actually do something is really the secret sauce in so many of these situations. So when you think about the episodes that we have on the podcast that are practice sessions or sparring sessions where they're completely unscripted negotiations with the guests, I tell my team, don't edit them. There's going to be silences. People are going to miss.

Makes me so happy that you do that.

Yeah, no, these are going to be ugly and dirty, and I'm going to be absurd in them, you know, because I want people to see that negotiations aren't always pretty. They usually aren't. Like, human interaction is messy. And if you have this idea of what a perfect negotiation is going to be, then you're not going to have the negotiation because your standards are unrealistically high. It's just our fear masquerading as perfectionism in order to hold us back from doing what we need to do. So I really want people to really embrace the reality that sometimes you need to lower your standards so you can actually perform.

There's two parts of that that I like, I could talk to you about for a couple hours, but let's. Let's go one path, and that's, you know, the practical side how this plays out. We talked about perfectionism relies on the all or nothing model. All nothing, okay, no, in between. The progress model relies on this whole idea of do something, you do something, not all, because that does come at a cost that is not sustainable. If you, even if you're just going to think about this logically, is it sustainable? No. So you're setting yourself up for bigger failure, going with the all. Okay, so that comes at a cost. But let's not do nothing either. Let's do something. And again, going down the science track, this is just energy, this is just physics, okay? When you do something, what you're really doing is creating momentum. And momentum is this, this energy that keeps building, it's ever building energy when you do something. And that's part of the habit too. Like if you have a, an expectation that is wise, I don't like to say lowered expectations, I would say a wiser expectation. When you have that you're doing something, it creates the momentum. You need to probably do a little more than you expected to. And you can ride that momentum wave that ever giving increasing energy, either in the moment or even in the bigger picture because you're always in movement. Instead of staying on the sidelines and waiting for this grand burst of what we call motivation, which is really just energy, instead of waiting for that big source of energy, you're creating it by doing something which will give you more energy over time and get you to where you want to be. So if you're thinking about this practically, like, if you're like a how person, like I am like how girl. I'm the Hermione Granger of like a classroom where I'm like raising my hand and wanting to know how, how does this work? I get you. Let's start with that mindset shift and then let's focus on taking action in that do something model and let that momentum, like let it teach you what, what you're actually capable of over time. It's pretty incredible.

I love all of this and I'm going to make a, an interesting turn in this conversation. Think about the level of power or how empowered you feel as a person today versus how you felt when you were just in the throes of perfectionism. How does it differ?

I just love talking to you because you cue into all these like secret parts of what it looks like to both recover, like work on perfectionism, but the benefits of doing so. This is another huge piece of the puzzle. It's identity. You know, I actually mentioned that earlier kind of sneakily like that my worth was based on the outcomes. That was my identity, which means my identity was always on this faulty, shaky ground. Another surprising benefit of growing outside of perfectionism is that my identity is totally separate from those outcomes. It's not to say they're not challenged. Like, I've had some of the biggest disappointments of my career this year in ways that me, as a non crier, cried for like two days straight and my husband was like, what's wrong? You know, I only see you well up with tears like once a year, you know, but it's still, I have this foundation that is so internal, so separate, so based in values and, like, richness and depth that helps me continue in this process. So it's identity. If you want a bigger picture reason of why, why let go of the all or nothing model? It's that it's having this foundation inside you that helps you ride through all the storms. And I'm talking both professionally and personally. I have two kids with really significant special needs. Um, we've been through some really hard financial things the past few years. You know, like I said, big career disappointments. But I have felt like myself through it all and been able to. To move through it in a different way than I ever would have been able to before.

Yeah, it's. It's remarkable because it's almost as if by letting go of control, you gain more control. By not trying to reclaim all the power for yourself, you actually become more empowered and you are allowing yourself to see yourself objectively and accept yourself through the process, which allows you to be more accepting of others. You know, and so the ripple effects of overcoming this just reverberate throughout your life. And so I really want to hammer that home. And so people are like, but I thought this podcast was about negotiation. Yeah. Listen up. I'm glad you made it this far. It is, because it's going to have an impact on the way that we negotiate, the way that we interact with the way that we resolve conflict. And so you can think about, if you have this mentality and you go into a conversation, you're going to be more critical of the other person. You're going to be more critical of yourself. You're going to be less vulnerable and willing to share. They're going to feel that they're not going to reciprocate with that vulnerability. Now there's less trust in the relationship. You've made this, on this negotiation unduly difficult. And so I think what people need to realize is that this is one of those secret types of things with your mindset that changes the game when it comes to your negotiations. You come here looking for tactics and strategies exclusively. You're not not going to get it, because you'll get the tactics and strategies and wonder why they don't work because you have the wrong mindset. So that's why it's so important to listen to these types of messages. So, Monica, I just really appreciate you coming in and for the second time.

I truly loved it. I think this is really great opportunity for me. So thank you.

Yes, it's my pleasure. And so people are probably saying, listen, I like this Monica lady. How can I get more of her? So can you let them know how to get in touch with you and remind them about the podcast too?

Of course. Yeah. I feel like I'm just getting fired up too. Like we're just about to get some spicy version of me coming out. So if you'd like to learn more, I join me in my podcast. It's about progress, and the whole purpose for that was life is about progress, not perfection. You know, I sure wish maybe I thought of a cooler name, but it really is symbolic of everything I love and teach about. So go there. And for the women in particular who are listening, I have a whole free class for you. The men are welcome to take it too, but it's about why women in particular must do habits differently. And like you've probably learned in our conversation is I like things to be research back, just not like a quick Google search or Monica experience back. There's a whole lot of research. And I'm not just saying, you know, a couple years, decades and hundreds of scientists of research about why women in particular have to do habits differently. And it's not because we're we. It's because we're not robots. And I think, again, this transcends just our gender, too. It's. It's for everybody who has to have flexibility in their lives. They can find that class@about progress.com habit class. I'd love to have them in there.

Appreciate it. Monica, thanks again for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

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