Adjusting the Conversation: The Power of Reading Body Language with Carol Kauffman

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Carol, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you. I'm glad to be here and we.

Are excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure, I'm a bunch of things possibly chronically confused with my identity. But among the hats I wear first is a leadership coach. And I love coaching leaders and working with their teams and talking to their teams, as you know. And I also work part time at Egon Zender, a search and management consulting leadership team. I also started the Institute of Coaching. And in my spare time, I have been teaching at Harvard for 30 years.

Years.

I live out in Lincoln, Massachusetts, a half hour outside of Boston, married with two grown children. And my biggest tidbit for the moment is in 10 days I'm heading into the Amazon for two weeks. Whoa, hold on.

We need to start there. Forget the negotiation stuff. So which part of South America you going?

Peru. Go. Start out in Lima, then go to Iquitos and then take 10 days going up the Amazon to the headwaters or whatever of the river and then meeting with indigenous people along the way and stuff like that. So I Just find that kind of trip very fascinating. And no, no grid. There's one satellite phone on the boat. That's it.

Wow. You will come back enlightened, I'm assuming. This is incredible. So my mom is from Guyana, so we have a bit of the Amazon there. And then I studied abroad in Ecuador, so. So, yeah, that. Fond memories in the Amazon, but kudos to you. That sounds like it's going to be a blast.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. A little nervous that I'm kind of shot in the world.

Yeah, I think it would be weirder if you weren't a little bit nervous about a trip like that. There's so much to explore and then not being connected through the technology. Yeah. I'm excited. We'll have to have you back to debrief, and we'll see your glowing aura and everything.

Okay.

This is great. And Carol, my humble friend, can you please tell the audience about your book?

Okay. It's called Real Time Leadership. Find your winning moves when the stakes are high. And I wrote it with David Noble, who I've been working with and good friends with for coming on a decade now. It's been a wonderful experience writing it and talking about it and kind of being an evangelist for the material.

Definitely. And when we were chatting beforehand, you were talking about the fact that this really became a calling for you in a way you didn't expect. Can you tell the listeners about that, too?

Yeah. What I assumed is that, you know, I. That the book would be a really good calling card and that, yes, I would talk about it. But one day I asked myself, if my book were a sentient being, what would it want from me? And things really shifted at that moment where I felt the book was calling me to represent it and talk about it and this with you on a podcast. And I think I shared with you. I thought I was going to go towards the keynote route. And I know I won't say no to the keynote, but what I have found is the most exciting calling is speaking with executive committees and the people that report to them, the people that can really shift the tone of an organization. And so that's where I've been playing with just recently. Just started that within the month, and I've got another couple of places I'll be doing it, and then I want to grow that part of what I do.

I love it. Yeah. And it's really interesting how the book can change you as you're going through the writing process and the promotion process, too. I remember my book Coach was telling me that if you want to write a transformative book, it has to be a transformational experience for you as well. And it seems like you're recognizing that too. So that's exciting to see that development.

Yeah. What made me fall in love with the book is a little bit embarrassing because, I mean, I'd written it already, for Pete's sakes. What I have found is I've had two very, very, very challenging situations. You could call them negotiation situations, but one of them was so tough that I actually used the book to help myself. So what happened? Which I thought was kind of pathetic because it was really, really helpful. And I'm like, seriously, Carol, you're now excited about your book because I've helped you, But I had a business partnership that could have broken up. And what happened was the person who is great in some ways was not responsive at all in others. I mean, it got even extreme. Like I was in the emergency room and they didn't get back to me. So. And then what happened is I. So I started asking around for someone else who did this similar kind of function. And a friend wrote me back and in blazing capital letters in the subject line said, I think I found a new business partner for you. Not knowing current business person, BCC on the thing. So, oh, no blood curdling texts. You sneak you this, you that. So it's easy to, you know, have one of these conversations when you have the moral high ground or you've been when brought, but when you're like the equal or more culprit. So I thought, okay, we'll talk the next day. And so before this, I was really nervous. I mean, I really was getting a lot of texts and capital letters, and I knew I was going to get hammered. So I sat down on the couch in this office and thought, okay, I need help for my book. So one of the things in the book is. So this acronym MOBE&M stands for being mindfully alert to what you need to do, who you need to be, and how you need to relate. Because the whole concept of the book is from Viktor Frankl, who basically talks about how between every stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space is our freedom to choose. Real time leadership is fine. Make that space for yourself, then know what to do for optimal performance in that space. One piece of creating that space, which is not part of that move acronym is what we call the five Cs, which is borrowed from the work by Dick Schwartz on internal family systems, which is how can you be like, you know, you're operating at your best in any situation, obviously in a negotiation situation, in any situation, is to check yourself on the five Cs which are. Are you calm, clear, curious, compassionate, and courageous. So I started out like, okay, I got to make a space because, like, I'm afraid to talk to this person. So I was, okay, calm. On a scale of one to ten, how calm am I? Like ten? Super calm. One. Frenzied. I was like two or three. I thought, okay, Carol, what can I do to get calm so I can sort of breathe, center myself, think about, what are the things that are going to get me triggered during this conversation? How can I manage them? Okay, check. Calm, clear. Some people under fire are super clear. I can sort of blank under fire. I was once in the middle of a big fight. Here's a really great negotiating technique. I was in a big fight. It's like all the messiness. This is a housemate when I was young. And she was, like, splendid in her anger and then was, like, waiting for me to. To like, my counterpoint. And I went, I know I have a point. I just don't know what it is. And that. That was. That was it. Fortunately, she laughed so hard she forgot that she was mad at me. But I know that's me. So I wrote down, you know, just, okay, what are the three main things I need to say that no matter what I hear, I can. Then curious. It's like, okay, I know I'm going to get yelled at. How can I ask one more question? How can I be curious and listen more and then compassionate? That's easier for me. It's like, I can see why she's upset. And so how to cross over the bridge to the other person and see the world as they do. And then courageous, like, hi, it's my business. I can do what I want. Really. But okay, so, fine, so I got those. And then the first part of M, the mindfully alert. Okay, what do I really need to do? What do I really want to accomplish? And it was like, I want to save the relationship, transition the relationship, but keep it. This person kind of was like a web through everything I do. But then was the moment of honesty as, what is it I better not accomplish? Because what did I really want to accomplish? I wanted to put her nose in the pee pee, and I wanted her to feel as bad as I did. Like, there I was in the emergency room in another country, and you didn't text me back and you didn't do this, and you didn't do that. And I'm like, no. And that was really helpful because that's just not going to happen. And then I thought, who do I want to be? I want to be someone who can be in charge of my own emotions at this time and who can be calm under fire. And then how do I want to relate? I want to relate as she needs me to, not as I feel like. So we get on the phone. First of all, I hardly recognized her. She just looked raised. I mean raised. Her hair was all messy. And we super activated. And she started out by just like slamming me, which is what I expected. And I was able to stay sort of calm. And then she actually is the one that tilted it in a good direction because at one point she said, I shouldn't even be talking to you now. Like, this is just ridiculous. We shouldn't even be talking. I'm just being defensive because of so many. Then I went into curious and compassionate and I said, so, hey, wait a minute, let's take the word defensive and let's just put that to the side. Let's just name right now. You are not being defensive. You are telling me your experience and I need to understand it and I need to know more. And so she started telling me more and we started sort of working it out. And then what hit me is from the compassion sign is the things that she was really failing me on. She had told me she didn't like to do that. And so what I realized was I said, okay, listen, as my blank function. You're not doing it. I need it done. You're not doing it. How about this? You find someone who can do it and you find them by the end of the week and you become their boss. And I just saw this person molt back into their best self. I swear her hair looked like it combed itself. Just became her core self and her power self. And she was in there and she did. She found someone to replace herself. Okay. I didn't really need to wait. It was a couple of weeks, but it's been very helpful first. And the issue of what she does, it happens still, but it doesn't affect my bottom line and my day to day. So that was really using the book and using it in real time. That just helped me and I hope it helps other people in similarly difficult situation.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations. At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. This is an incredible story for a number of reasons. First of all, I'm glad I'm not the only author who forgets what he writes sometimes. And I was like, we, I know what to do. But to me, this ties back to the tagline of the book finding Winning Moves when the stakes are high. Because when the stakes are high and the pressure is on, it's not that you don't know what to do, is that you don't know what to do in that moment because you can be so triggered. So taking that time, utilizing the power of the pause, and becoming mindfully aware of not just the circumstances, not just your feelings, but what you want to accomplish and what you don't want to accomplish, that's really important. And I think when it comes to preparation, a lot of times we miss that other part. Like, hey, let's make sure not to do this. That's really important so you understand what you should do and what you shouldn't do. And I think the thing that's really exciting about this is that the moves that you made under pressure, it wasn't something that you needed a PhD to do, even though you have a PhD, right.

Couldn't help with this. Right.

What you needed to do was relatively simple, but what made it so hard were the dynamics surrounding the decision. So the structure that you've provided is really beneficial because it helps us to understand not just what we should do in a situation like that, but what we need to do beforehand to make sure that mentally and emotionally we are capable of doing what we need to do in the moment.

Yeah, yeah. One of the CEOs I work with, he's like when we talk about preparing for a meeting and I'd say, okay, so what are you doing in terms of the people part of your preparation? And he was a lovely human being, by the way. He said, oh, I should do that. And he really didn't know that. Okay, so maybe it's a 70, 20, 10 or something. But 70 may have been on the content, the strategy, etc. But 20% of that prep needed to be on the people. And what was needed. And then 10% also really being clear on who you wanted to be in the emotional regulation because you know this leaders are under the kind of pressure that would just crush an ordinary person. I mean, they aren't the way they are when they're not good because they're not good people. They are that way because they're being crushed and stuff is coming out sideways and how to A, help them know that, but B, it's just as important working with their team to have the team be practicing this as well so that they can be thinking, okay, with my CEO, who do I need to be? What do I need to accomplish? How can I create psychological safety for my boss? Not just how can my boss create psychological safety for me?

Yeah, I think it's, it's such a nuanced point because we often don't look at it in that direction. Sometimes it can be, we can be intimidated, we could be frustrated, whatever the feeling might be. But whatever it is, it doesn't lead us to be empathetic to the people who are under that type of pressure. And we've all seen situations where we might see these behaviors in leaders and we say, this person is ruthless. They're so mean and everything like that. But then you talk to their friends or their family, oh, they're a sweetheart, they're so nice. Then who is this man in front of me? Because that's very different. And I think once you recognize this, it creates another layer of analysis for us. So we could say, you know what? Perhaps because of the pressure of the situation, I'm not getting the best version of the leader that's in front of me. And so understanding that sometimes it's our responsibility to create some of that psychological safety for our leadership, I think that can be really helpful for a lot of people as they go into these conversations.

I think that where, you know, you probably have worked with a number of people who are in partnership organizations and they're vying to be partner, whether it's, you know, management consulting or this or that or this or that. And I like working with the high risk people think aren't going to make it, but I think they can. I just, I don't do that as a regular practice, but it's a subset of. And one of the things I share with them is that you can go into this feeling like you're being, is judged and you are being judged, you're being assessed, but what for? And basically it's, the partner wants to know that if I make you a partner, I'm going to be safe. We're going to be able to make a contribution that will make our family safe. You need to be a hunter who's going to bring in the game so that we can feed the young and take care of the old. And again, that's how do you make the people judging you feel safe with you. And it's a very different headset, that element.

There's so much depth behind this, so much we could explore. But I think it can be really helpful because especially when we are triggered, if we're under pressure, those type of things, we start to focus predominantly on the threat. What is it that scares us? What is it that we want to avoid? And it makes it harder for us to be compassionate. It makes it harder for us to take the time and empathize because we're so concerned about our well being and our safety that we forget to care or consider the safety or well being of other people. And again, especially if we see the person as very accomplished and successful, we might not even think about safety. It's like, what do you have to be afraid of? You're good regardless. But that doesn't change the fact that for them this is a very scary situation.

Yeah, I think about starting something called the 3 o' clock a.m. club. I was working with the CEO of a organization. I can't actually say it's market cap because people could retro figure it out, but we'll say it's above 250 billion, significantly above. But he will wake up at 3 o' clock in the morning. I pop awake with everything that's going on, ruminating and can we all do this? Can we make it? And what I tell him is what I tell all the others. Like they're all waking up at 3am if you are a CEO or a leader of any stature or athlete, you're going to have the 3 o' clock in the morning, you know, experiences. So for every person, yourself, be okay with yourself when you're awake at 3 o' clock in the morning. But when you're talking to your leader, you can be pretty sure he or she's awake at different days at 3 o' clock in the morning. And I think one reason I've worked so well with CEOs is I really care about them. I often really care about the ones that like scare the blank out of everybody because of the way that I understand what's really going on. And they have so few people that actually care about them without an agenda. I mean they just a lot of times I'm the only one. But again, I just think for when you're working with a team, how can you make everybody safe? Your peers, your manager, the CEO. The CEO then has to worry about the board. Then the people on the board are wondering, how am I being judged on the board? I mean, just sort of doesn't stop that. I just think that's really, really important to be able to center yourself and think through what do I need to do? Who do I need to be? How do I need to relate? And relate part is the platinum rule, not the golden rule. Golden rule is I treat you is I would want to be treated. That's really good. If you're just like me. Instead, I need to treat you as how you want to be treated. Which may be very different from what would work for me.

Yes, I love this introvert situation. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Because I was going to ask you for an example. So let's go a bit deeper onto that because again, this is something that people miss but can make all the difference in those conversations.

Yeah, I used a kid. I was going to write an article, which I never did. Maybe I will. Which is, are your people llamas or puppies? So, in other words, a llama looks soft and fluffy. But if you want to train a llama, look at the llama. And if you want it to keep doing what it's doing, you do this, turn your back on the llama and it's like, so happy. Because it's an ultimate introvert. It's like, I only look soft and fluffy. Leave me alone. As opposed to you got a puppy. The puppy does what you want. What do you do? Good puppy. Love you, puppy. You're the best dog ever. So you have an extrovert boss and an introvert report. The introvert report is in trouble. The extrovert report thinks, surely this person needs a pep talk. I should go in the room, I should connect with them and help them through. And the introvert's going like the llama just like, give me space to think. That's what I need is safety and space. Okay, now reverse it. You've got the introvert boss and the extrovert report. The extrovert report is having trouble. And the introvert thinks, oh, surely the person just needs some space, so I'll just give them some space. And the extrovert then feels abandoned, left alone, etc. So the golden rule doesn't work. But then we need to be aware of that. And I would think in direct negotiating, that would Be very important because you need to connect and speak in the language that the other person can hear rather than the language you tend to speak as your own default.

I love this. And again, it's so easy for us to miss when we are focusing on ourselves the whole time. And a lot of times we use what I call egocentric persuasion, where we say, all right, what would persuade me in this situation? So I'm going to regurgitate that in the same form and fashion that I would. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so let's say there's a listener here saying, all right, Carol, I'm on board. That makes sense. But how do I know what they want? What advice would you have for them.

Of reading the person? Like, how do I adjust? Look at the body language and look at their eyes. So basically, if when you're talking to them and their faces, they kind of light up or you can see that the energy is working, just notice that. And so it's like, okay, that seems to be working. But if the person looks like their energy is going down, you can, like, start downshifting. So, for example, let's imagine you're my client. So I had this guy, this guy, he's great, great client. Had a big PR type firm and kind of energetic. And he's like. So I would. I'll call him John. So I get on the phone and I go like, john, hi, how are you? He goes, I'm fine, Carol. Oh, rats. Says, oh, listen. Well, listen, John, I'd love to hear about your work. Could you tell me about, like, what's been going on for you lately? So I just take all that extrovert energy and go down check so that I can talk with that person. Or you can imagine the reverse. You know, if the person's all bubbly, how do you. You may not match their energy because you can't be who you aren't, but you can at least do some smiling and nodding so that the person feels like you're connecting to them.

I love it. It's again, one of those things. Once you hear an example like this, you say, oh, that's doable. I could make that read. You don't need to be an FBI trained analyst to be able to make these reads. But you just need to be aware of the concept and then be aware in the moment. Just learn to recognize these things and be willing to adjust as necessary in the conversation. So this is really good.

So let me pick up on the adjust part. The O. So M is to be mindfully alert, mindful as in noticing and not prejudging alert like an athlete. O is to be an options generator for any situation. You should be able to adjust between four pathways forward. V is to validate your vantage point. And here the enemy is ego. If you think you're automatically right or you automatically doubt yourself, you really need to kind of look at what we have a checklist on. What is an ideal vantage point, how can you figure it out, and what can block you? And then E is to engage in effect, change. Moving back to options generator, David and I wrote an article in HBR January, issued this year called the Power of Options. And what that is. Because remember, all of this is about creating space between a stimulus that is thrown at you and your response, right? Make the space and what you do in the space. So what you do in the space is you practice the M and the O and the V and the E. The O is for any situation with four reflexes, four main reflexes, fight, flight, freeze. And a newer one they're understanding is called befriend, which is like, grab the kid in the oncoming traffic without thinking. And then I've translated these into the four stances. So if you think of a tennis player, there are shots coming to your forehand, you set your feet a certain way to do it. Backhand, you set your feet a certain way. So what are our stances? So when something comes at us, what's the ideal stance to take? And what we say is, whether it's business or interpersonal, there's four stances. So there's lean in, which is roll up your sleeves and get very involved. Be direct. It may be confrontation. It could also be leaning in with enthusiasm or joy. And you can lean in like a rugby player, you can lean in like a dancer. But do you lean in or is what's needed for you to do is lean back, which is. Okay, let's go. I'm going to go into inquiry mode. We're going to collect more data, let's get the facts, let's have the overview. You know, let's think this through, due diligence, et cetera. So do I need to lean in or lean back or lean with, which is connecting, caring, nurturing, and all of this scales to an organization level. And it would be sort of culture and people. So do you lean with? Or then do you have the capacity to say to yourself, don't lean? Something's coming at me, I don't have to catch it. I just need to have the capacity to not be triggered. You can apply that to a merger and acquisition. Do we go in gangbusters? Need more due diligence? Let's work on people and let's work on our signals. Or as we described earlier, in that interaction with the person I was talking about, do I lean in and really engage? Do I lean back and go through? Well, these are the 75 things that happened here and the 20 things that happened there. And here's the ways you went beyond, you know, lean. What I did was try to lean with. Try to connect, you know, and then to do that, I had to kind of not lean first, which is, okay, I'm not going to lean. I'm just going to pause. And then I used the book to help me with that. The five C's.

Carol, this is incredible. I wish we could keep talking about this, but I know we. I have something coming up at the top of the hour, so I've got to run. But before you go, please remind the listeners about the book, where they can find it and the best way to get in touch with you, too.

Sure. So if you see my name there, Carol Kaufman 2x1n and you add.com, you get to my website. On there, you can see an interview with me and Marshall Goldsmith about the book. You can also just Google Real time leadership and the book will come up. But I'd rather you visit my webpage and you can give me tips because I'm about to redo the webpage, the whole website, so. And of course, Christian, you can always ask me back.

Yes, I would love to. This is great. And I believe we're just getting started because there's so much, so much to explore here. Carol, I really appreciate you taking the time today and. Yes, please, please come back.

All right, I shall obey. Thank you. Thank you. This was fun.

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