Alexandra Carter's Keys to Negotiation Success

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Alex, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much, Kwame. I'm thrilled to be here.

Yeah, we are thrilled to have you. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. Okay. I'd love to. So I'm a professor at Columbia Law School, where I teach mediation. I'm a clinical professor, which means that I actually run a legal program. So together with my students, I mediate tons of federal, state, and US Government cases. So a bit about the course of my career. I've helped thousands of people settle their cases. And for the first portion of my career at Columbia, I was seeing people as, you know, as a mediator once their conflict had gotten pretty far, right? People are in court. Maybe relationships are really far gone. Business partnerships are too far to be salvaged. And I started to think, what if I could help people use the tools that I bring to the table as a mediator in these cases, and I could use them to help people avoid having to see me as a mediator in the first place. What if I could give them tools to help them negotiate so that they avoided ending up in Court. So I started working at the UN and at large corporations, as well as government agencies and NGOs, to give them some of the tools that I had seen work really well as a mediator for them as negotiators. So I did that. Now I've been doing that for the last eight years. And in the last couple years, I started to think that I wanted to take things further because I, up until now, I teach to people who are at Columbia, at other law schools, or at large corporations. And I started to think I'd like to widen the audience. I'd like anybody out there, whether they're in small business or they're seeking a job, to be able to have these same tools and to put them to work for themselves right away toward whatever goal they want to reach. So I wrote a book called ask for 10 questions to negotiate Anything. And that contains my very best tools that I've used now for the last 12 years at Columbia Law School and in training diplomats and executives and government agencies all over the world. And people can now have that in the comfort of their own homes.

This is fantastic. Yeah. And of course, 10 questions to negotiate Anything that's close to my heart with a podcast called Negotiate Anything. So this is great, perfectly on brand for both of us. So we're super excited for this. So, listeners, I'll put a link in the description so you can pre order and hopefully I'll update it so we can get post orders in there as well, too. But yeah, check the link in the description if you're interested in getting the book. So in today's conversation, we're going to focus on three topics from the book. The first one is the concept of negotiation isn't what we think it is. The next one is the power of open questions in negotiation. And then the last one is one that I really am interested in getting into questions that you should ask yourself. So let's go ahead and get started with the concept of negotiation isn't what we think it is. So what do you mean by that?

Yeah, Kwame, you know, I wanted to expand the conversation about negotiation. A lot of people believe, and I used to believe this, too. This is what I was taught in law school, that negotiation is a back and forth with another person over money or maybe over political terms. And over time, I started to see this as kind of a limited and reactive and pretty narrow way to think about negotiation. And this definition of negotiation creates a few problems. It actually keeps us frequently settling for yes when we could be asking for more. Why? Because that definition of negotiation leads some of us to believe that we have to be the biggest, loudest, most aggressive person in the room to do it effectively. And it's about how forcefully you can state your arguments or, you know, we think that negotiation is just what we do once we sit down with someone else. And I started to think about a definition that made a lot more sense to me, but it didn't come together until I went to Hawaii on my honeymoon and I got in a kayak and we were kayaking down a river, and the guide said, please negotiate your kayaks to the left so we can end up on that beach over there. And my brain went click. That's it. There's another definition in the dictionary way down there. It's not just a back and forth over money. It's to steer. In my work, I teach that negotiation is any conversation in which you are steering a relationship. So what does that mean? It means, for example, if I'm in a company, that I don't wait until the once a year conversation with my boss to say, hi, Alex Carter from mediation here. So I won an award. This year I published a book. Please keep me in mind when you make your compensation decision. It means that I am actively steering that relationship throughout the year, or perhaps I'm negotiating a contract. I'm not just negotiating. When I sit down as the supplier to talk terms with the distributor, I'm steering that relationship well before I get to the table, and then I'm continuing to steer it thereafter. So when we think about negotiation as steering, it's a much more proactive definition that allows us to approach all of the conversations in our life with intentionality, and it lays a much better foundation for once we do sit down with somebody else. And the last thing I'll say, Kwame, is that when we go from just the back and forth with somebody else to thinking about steering relationships, what's the most important relationship of your life? It's the one you have with yourself. And that is one of the key parts that's been missing in that old definition of negotiation. It doesn't start with with somebody else. It starts at home with you. So the book Ask for More also does that. It starts at home with you, to give you the tools so that you can then walk into any conversation with confidence.

This is great. This is absolutely fantastic. I love your definition of negotiation as it relates to steering a relationship because it's a great visual. I think one of the biggest barriers people face when it comes to effective negotiations is the fact that they have low levels of negotiation awareness. They just don't recognize when a negotiation has begun. And what you're demonstrating here is that we are negotiating at all times with people, and so we can now utilize these skills in every interaction since our awareness has increased.

I think that's so right. And, you know, so the key is really triggering that sense internally that says, you know, this is a negotiation. And so we switch those skills on, and then the effect is that we're teaching people how to value us and how to think about us long before we're ever talking about a monetary term.

Yeah, this is great. This is fantastic. And what's interesting is that your definition was so thorough and so well described that I am finding it difficult to go deeper into it. But I think where the depth is, where we can explore is when it, as it relates to the internal negotiation, how you're steering yourself. Because I think that's something that we don't explore enough because we focus so much on the external negotiations. But really, oftentimes our performance in those negotiations are a manifestation of the negotiation internally that either has or has not occurred. So tell us more about that internal negotiation.

Yeah, you're so right. And the internal negotiation is most of the problem for most of us. I like to tell my students that you only need one car to have an accident. Right. And sometimes the situation that's happening in your negotiation is happening within the walls of your own brain. So about asking ourselves questions, I had seen this be really effective in my coaching with people. And then I checked the research, and actually Dr. Tasha Yurek, who wrote a book recently called Insight, did a study on leadership and found that leaders, the most effective leaders were those who had the highest levels of internal self awareness. Now, you know, I'm sure if your listeners were to think of a time, you know, that they encountered a great leader, they would describe that person as self aware. And if you think of a time that you had a leader who was less than effective, you would probably describe that person in part as clueless. So how do we raise that internal self awareness? It turns out we do that by asking ourselves the right questions. And so that's why the first half of Ask for More is all about five great questions that people can ask themselves to avoid that one car accident. And you can see this internal conflict happen in a couple of ways. One is you get into a conversation with somebody else and you're having trouble making decisions or prioritizing, or maybe you end up going blank. That is a sign that you didn't have that internal negotiation, or maybe you're trying to make a decision and you're stuck. I've coached people before who knew they needed to make a job decision to evaluate a new offer, a new client, and they just couldn't get there. And it's because they had an internal negotiation going on. So, absolutely, the first critical step of any negotiation is to look inward. And I want to reassure your listeners that this doesn't have to take a tremendous amount of time. So I work through the mirror questions in my book, because the first five questions are what I call the mirror. It's actually looking at yourself. Not literally, thank God. You know, metaphorically looking at yourself to get a sense of your priorities and your feelings and your needs and your goals. I can do those five questions, Kwame, in 20 minutes. And when I have done them with executives all over the world, the number one comment I get is from somebody saying, oh, my God, in 15 minutes, I think I just saved myself several days worth of work. It's a little bit of focus that can really produce profound results.

Yeah, this is great. And I appreciate the fact that you really made the point to emphasize it doesn't take that long. And right now, in our professional world, there's this culture of busyness where you want to say, oh, I'm busy. And then person says, well, you think you're busy. This is how busy I am. It's like a competition. And so then when you say, hey, do you have some time for some introspection? They're like, of course not. I'm so busy. But I really appreciate that you took the time to say, it doesn't take that much time, and it's an investment of time because it can save you more time in the future.

That's absolutely right. You have to spend a bit of time to save a lot of time on the back end. And if I could talk about the busyness piece, because up until four weeks ago, I was one of those people who had annoying conversations about how busy I was all the time. I will tell you that now I do feel quite busy and overwhelmed. Why? Because like many now, in addition to doing my day job, I also have a child in the home that I'm supposed to be homeschooling. And you can tell mommy's here on a podcast. So we don't really know what's going on downstairs. But even in this pressurized and stressful environment, I want people to know that by taking those few minutes, you will improve your negotiations so much. In fact, I think the mirror is even more important for us now than ever. Why? Because when we negotiate during a time of stress, everything is affected. Our cognition is affected, our reactivity is affected, our ability to self regulate our emotions is affected. And so having a few minutes just to get set before we have a conversation is not only going to save you time to, to be honest, it's going to promote a sense of peace and clarity that I think a lot of us really need right now.

Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. I agree 100%. So let's move on to the second point, which is the power of open questions in negotiations. So tell us more about that.

Yeah, you know, I've been fascinated by questions for as long as I've been in the field of conflict resolution, because as a mediator, I've always found that my power as a dispute resolver, the number one reason people call me back to mediate their disputes and to consult with me on negotiations is not because I tell them what to do. I do not. I help them raise the right questions so that they can solve their problem. And once I saw the power of that, I started to break down what made a great question. But it didn't come together for me until I was on a beach in Brazil and I was there as a young Columbia professor. I know everybody in the audience can feel sorry for me right now. I was on a beach in Brazil, about to go and teach a lecture on mediation at a nearby university. And what I was looking at was fishermen who were in the water fishing and hauling these giant nets. And when I saw the nets pulling in so much catch, it came to me because I remembered back in my childhood standing on my grandmother's dock in Copeck, Long island, tossing a line in the water and how I would wait all day to catch one fish. And it occurred to me that, that what I did on my grandmother's dock is what most of us do with our questions when really, we want to be doing what the fishermen do in Brazil. So in other words, we're trying to ask open questions and fish with a net instead of asking closed questions. And that fish were the line. Okay, so I'll give you an example. I was counseling a startup company. They had a wellness product that they were looking to distribute throughout the US and before we started working together, they would go into their meetings with potential distributors and they would basically pitch and then ask, are you ready for our product now? Are you ready for our product? What are the possible answers to that? Right? I mean, Kwame right now is shaking his head like, oh, God, this is, you know, it's painful, right? It's painful as a mediator to hear these questions. The possible answers to that are yes, no, and maybe. And when you ask someone a yes or no question, what is the easiest answer for them to give you? It's no. And people do this all the time in the workplace. They say, you know, can we raise my compensation 20%? Again, yes. No question. The answer is likely to be no. So let's go back to the company. So this time they were going in for a meeting with a distributor who had turned them down. Twice they went in twice they thought they were getting the deal. They didn't get the deal. This time they went in and I told them what question to ask. They walked in, sat down and said, we'd like to reserve our presentation. Instead, we'd like you to tell us your view on our sector here in your region of the country. And they sat back. And when they did that, there was a look of surprise on the distributor's face. And she responded by saying, okay, so you really want to know the reason you didn't get the deals last time? Here's what I see for the sector. And she told them all of the information that she had withheld the previous two times. Why they fished with Annette. They went in with the confidence to lead with an open question that invited, almost compelled her to open up and share information. And once she did, they were able to pitch to her concerns and they won the account. So when in doubt, really tried to ask an open ended question. And how do you know if it's open ended? If it either starts with my favorite what, how? Or something in the imperative tense like, tell me. Okay. Those three types of questions are ones where instead of asking, can we get my compensation to 20%? We're going to be asking, what can we do to compensate me at a level that corresponds to my worth in the market? Two Very different conversations that arise from that.

This is great. And I think there are probably just a few listeners. Most of the listeners have been with me for a while, so they know about the questions. There might be a few listeners who are saying, hey, it couldn't possibly be that easy. But it is. It really is. And once you start doing it, the thing is, it's almost like a magical experience. It's like the conversation and the negotiation is happening for you, as you are just an observer, as one might say, steering the conversation. Right.

And, Kwame, let me say that for your negotiators, for your listeners who are expert or experienced negotiators, even more reason for you to use an open question. Because I know that with the information you get from that question, you will be able to pivot on a dime and pitch to that information. It gives you the tools you need as a superior negotiator, somebody who's flexible, somebody who can take in information and pivot on the spot. Gives you the information to close a great deal.

Exactly. I think about it as in terms of you're giving them the opportunity to give you the key to persuasion. It's like you're standing at a door with a bucket of keys. And if you're just asking or just making direct statements, it's essentially like going into that bucket and just trying random keys instead of just knocking on the door and say, excuse me, what color is the key? How big is it? What does it look like? Oh, this is it. Okay, great. And it just. It just happens. And so what if you're in a situation where you're asking the open questions, but the person is not giving you information that is helpful? It seems like they are going around in circles or it's just not becoming productive fast enough. What do you do in that situation?

Yeah, great question. So, you know, some of this might depend on the dynamics of what I was seeing. For example, you know, is the person you know, do they appear to be skirting a real issue? You know, are they trying to dance around something? And sometimes when the information isn't quite adding up, it almost looks like a story that has chunks missing out of it. I might ask somebody directly. You know, I'm getting the sense that you have a concern that, you know, you haven't felt comfortable sharing. And so I'd like to open that conversation now and ask you to tell me your concerns. You know, I'd love to hear them. And if I know your concerns, then I can help address them. And I can't tell you how often I have asked that question, tell me your concerns. And that has been the thing that opens people up. I find that very often people have concerns, but they don't share them with you. They just do what the distributor did to that startup company and they don't give you the deal. You hear? Right. You hear via the no. And so my first line of defense might be to ask that question, what are your concerns? Which, by the way, also works fantastically well if you get a no. Because some people see a no as the end of the conversation. And I see it as just the jumping off point for further negotiation. So that would be my first line, would be to ask something like, what are your concerns?

This is great. And so again, I want to push to make it as practical as possible because I like to ask questions on behalf of the skeptics as well. And so let's say you then ask the question, what are your concerns? And then they continue to dodge. So they say, okay, we just didn't feel comfortable with it, so we decided to pass.

Okay, so let's say the person is dodging. So you've tried to ask about the concerns and they're dodging. You know, maybe they've told you no. Right. But they haven't been clear on the no. I think my next question would be, you know, what are your goals for this conversation? Because I'll tell you that, you know, my goal coming in here was to find a way that we could work together that was going to serve you as well as serve me. And so that's why I'm here today. And it would be really helpful for me to know what, what your goal is for this conversation. And then I would sit back and invite them to participate in the productive problem solving.

Yes, thank you. This is great. Because the answer that you gave was not give up on the negotiation. Because a lot of times when people would ask me in workshops, okay, well, what if I do this and then they dodge the question? Then what if I do that and they dodge the question? I say, well, you just keep going. That's the thing. You don't stop the negotiation. You don't say, well, it doesn't look like we're going to get a deal and then just end it. You just keep on pushing. And I think a lot of times when it comes to the implementation of solid negotiation and conflict resolution techniques, the issue is that people are not resilient enough with it. They will try it maybe once they don't get the result that they want, and then they go back into their bad habits where they feel more comfortable because they weren't immediately getting the response. But in certain circumstances, the conversation isn't going to go as easily. But that doesn't mean the techniques don't work. That doesn't mean the right answer stops being the right answer.

That's exactly right. And I have to tell you that some of the biggest deals I've ever done were on the other side of no. And I didn't have to be aggressive or pushy to get them. I simply picked up the phone or called a meeting and asked one question. The what are your concerns? Question landed me one of the largest orders for my book of the last six months. I got a no. I asked a question. We solved a problem really easily, shockingly easily, and we got something that was of huge mutual benefit for us both. So I would tell your listeners, in fact, to embrace the no. I think a lot of the most successful negotiators are the ones who get the most nos, because it means they're trying the most. They're playing the game of the numbers they are getting out there. They are extending themselves. And if they get the no, they see that as information, and they use that to get information about what would turn the no into. Into yes. And then they start moving forward toward that eventual yes.

This is great. Yeah. And one of the things I talk about in my book is the compassionate curiosity framework. So acknowledging emotions, then getting curious with compassion, and then joint problem solving, which is just collaborative negotiation. And sometimes when somebody is dodging a question or I can tell that they're holding back, then I recognize it might not be a substantive issue. It's possible that it might be an emotional issue. And so I would say, well, Alex, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you don't feel comfortable sharing that information. Is that right? And then they say, yeah, I don't feel comfortable sharing that information because of xyz. Oh, okay. Tell me more about that. Okay. And so now they're sharing more information, but it came after you took the time to acknowledge those emotions.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. In fact, you know, in the second half of my book, when I talk about sitting down to speak with somebody else, I mentioned the power of doing what you just did, which is summarizing and acknowledging. You know, we often think that it's enough just to ask somebody a question and sit there while they speak, and that then they know we have heard them, but they don't. And when we take that moment to Say, you know, so here's what I've understood you saying. Here are your concerns. That has a powerful effect on someone. It really makes them so much more open to hearing what you have to say in return. And it also makes sure that you got the information correct. So it's really, really key. And I'm so glad you mentioned it, because if I'm in a negotiation, I try never, in fact, to ask more than like, two questions in a row without summarizing what the person has said back to me first. I find it really helps the negotiation flow much better. And not for nothing, it also gives you, as the negotiator, a few seconds to formulate your next step. Right. So if I've taken the time to summarize, I then have a second to say, all right, now I know where I need to go. Here's my next question.

This is great. Perfect. I love it. Well, let's go to the third and final point, which is the questions to ask yourself. And so now we're going to get a little bit meta here. I'm very excited as a psychology nerd. So when it comes to asking yourself questions, where do we even start?

So the place you start is not where most people think you start. I think most people, when they sit down to prepare for negotiation, jump to thinking about potential solutions or what they want to ask for or demand. And the first step to every negotiation, the critical step, is to first figure out what is the problem you're trying to solve. And so the first thing I ask myself in any situation is, what's the problem I want to solve? That is where ask for more starts. That's where we start to look in the mirror. And in the book, I talk about how most great negotiations, even innovation by companies, really hinges on whether you have defined the right problem to solve. And in particular, during coronavirus, I think this is a critical question for negotiators to be asking ourselves. Why? Because when we look around, we're confronted with a lot of unsolvable problems. You know, clients who went under, you know, events we had that vanished. It could even be right. You know, so a lot of us, in fact, over the past month, and I include myself in this group, you know, I was supposed to do a book tour. I should have been on a plane at this very moment, and all of that, within the space of a week, evaporated. Now, if I focused my time trying to solve the unsolvable problem, I would be left spinning my wheels. You know, I can't spend that energy back to get those events. But instead, I defined, for example, a problem that I wanted to solve as, how can I serve people using my skill set right now? And once I defined that problem, it set in motion everything that I wanted to do for that next month. It directed all of my action steps. I started a series of free webinars, and I ended up serving this month. That way, so many more people than I would have done in person. So before your listeners go out to negotiate, the first place to start is thinking about the problem they want to solve. You know, if you're going in even to ask for more compensation, think about what are you trying to achieve? Are you just trying to achieve a certain number, or are you also trying to telegraph an eventual leadership role you'd like at the company? Are you trying to show them that you can negotiate for yourself so that they will know that you could negotiate for the company if they put you into a senior role? So when you define the problem you want to solve, you direct all of your steps from there.

This is good. This is really good. And I really appreciate, especially that last point where it might be more than one problem you're trying to solve. And I think, again, we get too narrowly focused on a probably the biggest thing. So right now, of course, it's the pandemic. If you're negotiating for your salary, okay, yeah, I want more money. But it's more than just that. You want to be seen in a specific way. You want to achieve a different position, those type of things. I think that's great because that's going to have a significant impact on the way that you navigate the conversation, the way that you create your strategy. And so, again, it just flows right into what you said before, how not handling the internal negotiation effectively puts you in a bad position for the external negotiation.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think if people find, if they really consider, and I love that, Kwame, if they consider, you know, even the multiple problems they're trying to solve, then that's the deal that you're going to get. You're going to end up, you know, not just with something that's about compensation, but maybe something where you are being mentored into the C suite position that you want to occupy five years from now. And so this is why I called the book Ask for More, because when we don't ask ourselves these questions, we can settle for less. And that's not what I want for people. I want them to think about all of the problems they can solve and ask themselves the questions so that they can then go in and ask audaciously for what they need.

This is great. And so, listeners, I think right now you have gotten your five star point for the episode. So every time we want to shout out a point that you made that was a five star point, even though all of them have been really. I just forgot to say it until this point. So, listeners, if there was anything in this episode that Alex said that really resonated with you, leave the show a five star review so other people can discover us and get the same goodies as well. But before we wrap up, I want to give you an opportunity to go a little, just a little bit deeper on the questions to ask yourself. And you said it's the five questions looking into the mirror, Right? Can you tell us a bit more about that?

So we've talked about defense, finding the problem to be solved, and the rest of the mirror questions. Kwame, walk people through, you know, their needs, what different needs can look like in negotiation, and how to make sure you are capturing all of your needs so that when you go in for that conversation, you've really set yourself up to create the best possible deal. I also talk about emotions, and sometimes, you know, for us business negotiators, we really don't like to admit that we have feelings. In fact, I call feelings the F word in the book. But feelings are critical to how we make decisions. And so I've created a question that's going to help you really uncover those so that you can harness your emotions and not be limited by them when you go in to negotiate. And then the last couple of questions are going to help people figure out what successes they've had in the past that they can draw on for this negotiation and then create an action plan their steps forward toward their solution.

This is great, listeners, if you haven't come to this conclusion already, you need to get this book. This will be. This is fantastic. And I know you'll get a lot out of it, too, just like I'm sure you did with the interview. But before we go, Alex, let the listeners know again about the book and how they can get in touch with you.

Absolutely. So the book is called ask for more 10 questions to negotiate Anything. And this is why, you know, Kwame, we were really meant to speak together on this podcast. We are, you know, truly aligned. You know, it's being sold by Amazon, Barnes and Noble, your independent bookstores, really, anywhere books are sold virtually at the moment, because it will, of course, not be in bookstores until the pandemic is done. And as for where you can get in touch with me, I'd love for you to come visit me on my website, which is Alex Carter Asks. And you can also find me on LinkedIn and Instagram at alexandrabcarter. You know, I want your listeners to know that I want to be their partner in achieving their long term goals. And so I would invite you to get in touch. Let me know what you took from this interview and let me know if you have questions. I'd be happy to try and answer them.

Fantastic. Alex, thank you again. We appreciate it and we will see you in the sparring session.

See you then.

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