Ariana Tadler: Mastering Empathetic Stoicism in Negotiations

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Arianna, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me, Kwame. This is really such a fun opportunity.

Yes, yes. I like using this as an opportunity to catch up with friends while sharing a good message to the world. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. My name is Arianna Tadler. I am the founding partner of Tadler Law LLP which is a women owned WBENC certified litigation boutique. We're principally located in New York, although we have a national legal practice and we focus on complex litigation, class action litigation. We also have specialization across the entire team in an area called electronic discovery which deals with all of your data that you have. I am also the co founder of a company by the name of MetaDiscovery, which is a data hosting, management and consulting company.

That is fantastic and very impressive. And you must be pretty busy I'd assume.

I definitely am able to fulfill all the hours in the day. The word busy is one that I think I struggle with because I sometimes think it has negative connotations and so I'm trying to find a word in 2021 that encapsulates what does it mean to fill all those hours in the day and still have more things to do?

Oh, I like that. Yeah, I think that's really the balance that a lot of us are trying to figure out. So if you figure it out, let us know. We'll have you back on the show.

Absolutely.

So today we are talking about empathetic stoicism. And you might be saying to yourself, what is empathetic stoicism? Well, it is something that Ariana and I made up in our pre interview chat. And I had to sell you on this too. Right, because can you tell the audience about your initial perspectives on stoicism when I mentioned it?

Absolutely. So when I was much younger, the word stoic was sometimes used to describe me in my youth. And I took it as meaning something where the person was unemotional, very static, very quiet, perhaps very introspective. And so it wasn't something that I thought of in a positive light. And then you and I had a discussion where you really enlightened me about the depth of that word and the history of that word. And so I think this is just such a great opportunity for us to really explore where that goes.

Exactly. Yeah. And so for me, when I'm thinking about stoicism, I'm thinking about the classic stoics like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, all of those philosophers from back in the day. So I'm thinking about the philosophy of it and how it's about controlling your emotions, fighting temptation, and having clarity of thought so you can make better decisions. And I think if we take that philosophy and blend it with empathy, so it's not just understanding and managing our own emotions, but being aware of other people's emotions and managing those too, then for us as leaders, lawyers, negotiators, and just everyday communicators, it could be really, really powerful in terms of our ability to connect and persuade.

Well. And the timing could not be more perfect. Right. I mean, just coming off of hearing some of the messaging with this new chapter in our nation and talking about unity and empathy and all of the things that we can do to be collaborative, inclusive, trying to make sure that all people are heard. And the truth of the matter is, I find at least that when I listen to others before I make a decision about taking an action or responding, I find that whatever action or decision I make ends up being a better action or decision because it's more informed. Right. It's almost stating the obvious, but I think the world has found itself on this super fast pace that we lost the significance of taking a step back and just maybe a breath to listen.

Exactly. No, I agree 100%. And so, audience, the three things that we're going to talk about. First, number one, we're going to talk about stoicism, what that means in this context and how we can start to master that in our lives. Next, we're going to talk about recognizing what's in inside of us. And then we're going to wrap it up by talking about recognizing what's inside of the person on the other side. So when we think about stoicism and controlling emotions and things like that, what are the things that come to mind for you.

In terms of being controlled and still being creative? It means having some quiet in your mind, trying to make some space, right? To take a concept that's being positioned before you and giving it, as I said before, a minute, let it settle. You know, sometimes things just need to settle down for a minute so that you can have a better understanding of what is its actual scope, what is the real meaning or what is the intent. And I think one of the books I mentioned to you is this book called Leadership and Self Deception by the Arbinger Institute. And, and it talks about this concept about living your life in the box or outside of the box. And when you're in the box, you're really just in your own head, you're in your own space. It's as if nobody else matters or has any kind of impact in your life. And of course, that's not true every day. And every, pretty much every thing that we do has some interaction with somebody or something. And so when you take that minute to think about, well, what if I took myself out of the box? What if I looked outside of the perimeter to see is there a different viewpoint or is there a different angle? That if I looked in from that angle, I would see this situation, this concept, this thought very differently. It is hard right now. It's very challenging when we're so accustomed to that immediate gratification through technology, through the television, through just the way information and the people in our lives are moving. And yet I find so frequently that if I do take a step back, things seem to calm down. I feel much more comfortable in the decisions that I make. I feel much more comfortable in those intense moments when you're having a conversation with somebody, which might not be the lightest of situations, when you just let things settle a little bit, you find that it takes some of the intensity or the heat out of it. Right. We know. I don't know if you like to cook. I like to cook. Sometimes when you're throwing things in the pan, it suddenly gets so super hot, you know, that if you just take the pan off that flame for even a few seconds, things settle down and you can go back to making whatever hopeful masterpiece you were trying to make. And so I think about it in that way.

This is great. And let's continue with this metaphor. As the person who cooks in the family. That's what I. Well, I used to do it more. Now mom lives closer by, so we have assistance now, which is really nice. But I remember, and I think about the reality that not all mistakes are created equally. Right.

And.

And so I realized, okay, if I burn this food, we are done. I can't come back from that. But if I'm a little bit under, okay, I can recognize that. Then I can put a little bit more on. And so if we think about this in terms of the heat of the battle, one might say, or a difficult conversation where there's high level of emotionality, we might find ourselves in this conversation, and we say, okay, let's take a moment. Let's pull ourselves back. But then sometimes we might make the mistake of overestimating our abilities or getting too caught up in the heat of the moment. And then we say or do something that we can't recover from. And that is the burn. Right? And you're done.

Yes. Well, that is definitely the burn. When you go too far, you say too much. Then we also wonder, what is the impact of saying nothing? So my husband and I just recently had a situation in communicating with some folks, and things got very hot, and everybody just stopped communicating. And I left that conversation, if you can call it a conversation, feeling that it was not complete. People had not finished saying what they had to say. Then again, if they did say what they really wanted to say in that moment, Being reactive, which you and I have spoken about. I don't like to be reactive. I like to be responsive. And in this particular situation, the communications just stopped. And I have continued to dwell on that. I'm not a dweller, but I have dwelled on that, thinking I feel like I have something to say. There are so many different personalities involved. I am, to some extent, one step removed from the key participants in the conversation. I'm a participant. I was invited into be part of the conversation, but there are some key players in the conversation. And I was concerned that if I spoke up, that because of the position I had, I Might have created more friction than we wanted. That was my thought. Then days passed and then I started thinking I didn't close that. It turns out something else has now come up in a communication with the same players. And it looks as if we're going to now move forward and we're going to leave that difficult conversation behind. So I'm okay with it now because of how it's played out. But I will say for the last number of days, I really was sort of fixated on it. You know, I really should say something. I should say something. Sometimes you shouldn't say something, especially if you're not among the key players. Sometimes there's a role for you to play that by being quiet. The fact that they invited you in as sort of round two, maybe the hope was that by your being quiet you'd help things settle down a little bit.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the arts with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yeah, that's so powerful. And it's so funny because they said that was an example that they gave in the book on stoicism that I just read. The book is by Ryan Holiday. Stillness is the way. And they were referring to, I think the guy's name was Fabian fighting Hannibal way back in the day. And so everybody wanted him to be more aggressive and actually engage in the battle. And he said, no, actually what we need to do is wait and his army will become depleted. And then we would, it would be much better for us to attack when he is weaker. There was power in restraint, in doing nothing. And that's a big part of it. And I know this is almost going to seem contrary to what we often say in the podcast because I'm always talking about being proactive, engaging, having the conversation. But that is the. I think there's an appropriate bias towards being proactive and having these conversations leaning in. But we also have to be able to slow down, pause and think through it so we can then implement the proper strategy. We can't really trust ourselves in the moment when we are flooded with emotions to make the proper decision. Let me take a day, maybe even two, to think about what the right approach is. And what you came up with in that situation is the right approach is to not approach and let this play itself out.

Right? Right. Recognizing again, what role are you there to play in that particular circumstance or that particular situation? Some of the work that I do, obviously I don't have the benefit of days, let alone even hours or sometimes minutes. I think about when I'm appearing before a judge and you're really on the spot. When you're in that communication and the judge is trying to figure out how to resolve a dispute, he or she wants an answer. I always, though, try to say a few sentences in the course of the discussion so that I'm still thinking in the background and saying, okay, where's this going? Where's the intensity? Where's that middle ground? Where does this judge, arbiter, mediator think we're going? And if it's not the direction that I want to go, how can I help to move that needle, even just slightly? Because just that slight movement could change the tone of the conversation. And when the tone changes, people start listening again. Right. When people start yelling or people become nasty or intense, I feel like sometimes people's ears just shut off. They forget that in order to converse, even to really have a good debate, anybody who's done debating work knows you have to listen. That's the whole point. Because otherwise you're just talking and you can't possibly win the debate because you're not responding point for point. And so you have to come up with some mechanisms so that you can better manage the situation and allow your brain to. To process what's really happening here, both audibly as well as tone, temperature. And then sometimes realizing that whatever that intensity that's coming at you may have nothing to do with what we're talking about at all. It may be that that person just had a really crappy day or something bad just really happened moments ago, an hour ago, two hours ago. And so they've brought the heat to this conversation. Well, you know, this plays right into that empathetic stoicism. Right. So trying to have an understanding of where is this coming from? Why is this person behaving this way? Why is he or she saying it the way he or she's saying it? Because maybe when we get right down to it, we're really just talking about X. Let's get to X.

Exactly. Oh, this is great. And I like what you talked about at the beginning when you were talking about the pause. But sometimes we don't have the luxury of days, hours, or even minutes. But even injecting just a simple deep breath before responding can work wonders. And for me, as a mediator, that's something that I have to deal with, especially when somebody says something that is way out in left field. I just need to take a second and think through it. And then sometimes you can almost make manufacture this time because you can say things that can give yourself a little bit of time, like you said. So, for example, one of the things that I like to do in these types of situations is ask for clarification. Even if I know, I know what they said, I understand it, I might just say, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Can you explain that? Or I might focus in on a specific word. When you say blank, what does that mean to you in this situation? Okay, tell me more. And so I'm still listening to a certain extent, but I'm really strategically asking that question to give myself some time to process a little bit deeper.

Right. I mean, just think about our prep time and talking about the word stoic or stoicism. And you saw the reaction from me right away, even just in body language, because we were doing it via video teleconferencing. And then when I shared with you what that word meant for me, we ended up having this really phenomenal conversation about how that can really be broadened. Especially when we add empathetic to that word. It becomes much more inclusive, thoughtful, creative, inviting, inviting. This opportunity for people to communicate better, more clearly, more in a more understanding way.

Absolutely. And I think again, going back to how we define stoicism, whether it's the philosophical way or the kind of common approach to stoicism as like a descriptor, I think a lot of times people might take stoicism and manipulate it for their own purposes in order to disconnect. So, for example, let's say it's somebody who is not really in tune with their own emotions. And they might say, kind of almost contrive this in a way to say, yes, I'm operating on a higher moral order by not connecting emotionally with you in this moment or showing any level of vulnerability. And they might say, this is the way that people should operate. And I think, again, that's a bit of a perversion of what stoicism is meant to be.

Right.

Because then you are not fully engaged and wholeheartedly engaged in the Conversation, because the emotional aspect is a very real component of the. These difficult conversations.

That's right. That's right. I mean, we all have to understand that every person has their own story and their story has chapters, right? So you might know a particular person and think, oh, well, her story is that this is how she grew up. This was her family. She was either privileged or underprivileged or had bad things happen in her home, or her life was just a beautiful bucolic life, no problems. You never know the real story until you actually start getting to know somebody. And I'll give you a very pointed example, which is a very personal example for me. So I grew up on Long island in a town on the North Shore, went to the, you know, local public schools through the local public school system, and loved going to high school there. I. People tease me all the time. They're like, you still love your high school days? I said, I absolutely do. I had this wonderful experience. So I have a best friend who's been a best friend of mine since I was 13, and she did not know until about three or four years ago that my father was an alcoholic. She had no idea. And when I told her that, she said, what are you talking about? You mean that happened like at some point after you went to college and we had lost touch for a while? And I said, no, he was an alcoholic while we were in school. And she said, how could you have never told me that? And I said, because that was something that I kept very close. Right? I didn't tell anybody. I just worked through that. And of course, I thought I had handled it so beautifully. It wasn't until many years later that I realized that was something that weighed very heavy on my heart and I had to work through that. It goes to show you that somebody who's even your best friend might not know something about you unless you tell them, just might not know.

And with the time we have left, I want to get to the other two things, because we have recognizing what's inside of you and then recognizing what's inside of them. And we've touched on these a little bit. But I really want to dig deeply into this too, because this goes toward, yes, stoicism, self awareness, that part of it, but also self directed empathy, getting an understanding of how you see, think and feel about this. And let's go a little bit deeper in terms of how we can actually operationalize this in the moment. So if we find ourselves in a difficult conversation and then we recognize, oh, I'm feeling Something. What is it that you've been able to do in order to get an understanding of yourself while still staying in the moment and negotiating effectively.

Very quickly, trying to think. And you have to be, you know, fast on your feet, if you will. Why am I having a visceral reaction if I'm having a visceral reaction? And when you. If you're able to pick that up right away, that immediately will put you in a position of saying, well, I already know from my own experience that if I go that direction, that visceral reaction direction, that's going to push me in a way that I already know how that could play out, because I've seen it before. It's, you know, rinse and repeat. And so if I. If I know where it's coming from, if I can tap into that right away, it gives me some courage to say, how would I like it to look differently? What could I do right now? Even just to put a quick pause or a quick breath, a quick. Another sentence or two so that I can strategize a little bit. And maybe if I say something differently, more calmly, more thoughtful, or sometimes, quite frankly, more harshly, the conversation could go differently. And I will tell you that I've had to do that, just like many people. And I can think of a particular conversation with my dad again, whom I absolutely adored, and I think positively about him every day. We had a conversation where he was so accustomed to being the patriarch of the family and running the show, and everybody just kind of fell in line, and he had one of these moments of being loud and demanding. And I just took a breath and said, no, I don't want to do that anymore, and I'm not going to. And there wasn't screaming, there wasn't yelling. I just said very matter of factly, I'm not doing this anymore. And if you continue to behave that way, what will happen is we will not be having conversations, because I'm not interested in having that loud, screaming, yelling situation. And it didn't happen all the time, by the way, which is going right to your point, right. Thinking about, why did that happen the last time? It doesn't happen all the time, but if you can quickly remember, oh, that happened. And every time I react that way, things go in a bad direction. And for this, it was an absolute pivotal moment, not only in my relationship with my father, but it was a pivotal moment in my relationship with my husband and my children, because no longer was I walking into situations that sometimes might have been intense, where they were kind of on pins and needles worrying because I just had a new sense of peace. Like, I'm not going to do that anymore. I don't want to do that anymore. I don't have to do that anymore.

This is so fascinating. There are so many different angles we could go with. And so let's start off with this one because I think there is an assumption that a harsh action or harsh words need to be met with a similar level of emotionality. And I was actually on a podcast episode where they, where they asked about that this morning, actually, so pretty recently. And again, your response was incredibly powerful. You did not meet him with that same level of maybe, let's say aggression or volume in this situation. You were very calm. And so what I like to do is focus on not just the conversation, but also the conversation behind the conversation that doesn't involve words. And so forget the words that you said through your demeanor and through your controlled approach. What did you show him in that moment?

Right, so I spent the better part of my youth slouched, even though I was an athlete for all through high school, all through college, just slouched. And now when I look back on that, that was my curving in. Right. Protective mode. And in that conversation, I walked in, shoulders back, head on, head held high, and looked at him and just said, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm sorry if you don't like that. I'm sorry if that makes you feel uncomfortable, but I need to say my piece. And I said that. And there was potentially maybe two seconds, three seconds, maybe they were three seconds where he could have said something to bring me back into that heat. I had already 180 out the door. I was already out. Now that's an intense conversation. And again, I don't want anybody to walk away from this conversation thinking poor things about my dad because he was very highly functional. Highly, highly functional and successful. And again, I loved him so much. I have had other conversations with people where again, you look back and think, well, why did things play out that way? Why did they feel that they could speak to me that way or treat me that way? You play a role in that too. You know, I don't want to say that like the victim psychology, that's not what I'm talking about. But if you don't hold your ground, if you don't show a sense of self control, not in a way that is overly manipulated or restricted, but self control in terms of who are you? Who do you want to be? You know, we talk about, we think about all these people, whether it's, you know, executive coaches or evangelists, you know, you have to. You have to actually vocalize and visualize who you want to be. It's actually very powerful when you do that. When you think about situations that have involved difficult conversations, if you visualize how you wish you had been, and you kind of refer to that from time to time, over time, you can bring that to bear and make that who you are very naturally. It may not feel natural to people who've known you for a long time, but over time, they'll see that you're an evolving human being. God willing, we're all evolving. I hope we are evolving for the better. That's certainly my personal aim.

Yeah, exactly. And the word that you said that I think is most fascinating here is role. We played a role in that. And if we think about a role in a TV show or in the theater or something like that, you have a character and a role that you're playing, and you interact with other people and they have a role, and the balance of the play is contingent upon people staying in their roles. And so really what you did in this. And you said you were saying that we're changing the pattern, right? Yeah, I used to play this role, but that's not the role I'm playing anymore. This is the role I'm playing in this play. Right now I am going to be in control, and I'm not going to be dominating and controlling of you, but I am certainly going to be in control of myself and the situation and what happens to me or doesn't happen to me in this situation. And if you don't assume your new role, then I will exit stage. Right. That's what you did.

Yes. Right. And we just had a conversation too, recently about, you know, my finding a new voice. I do feel that you go through these cycles in your life where if you're listening to yourself, if you're paying attention, you may have an opportunity to make some kind of turn or transition. And just now in my career, after having left a firm practice that I had been involved with for, you know, nearly 25 years, and now out on my own, I want to make sure that I am having my own voice. Not a voice that is filtered or somehow kind of cornered or not even sure what a good word for it is, but kind of this perimeter on it, because you're working in that context with those people, and you have a role to play in that construct. Well, that construct is not just Ariana Tadler. That construct is a firm with a lot of people, a lot of different personalities, a brand. Toddler Law says it all. Right. Toddler is me. And so I want to make sure that now I'm having the voice that I want to have, and I have much greater ability and opportunity to do that because I'm in a very different kind of construct. At the same time, though, I have to be very mindful. Tadler Law is not the Ariana Tadler show. Right. Tadler Law has its own construct. I have a phenomenal team of diverse people who make what we do every day work. And I am so grateful for them. And I'm still mindful that when I want to have perhaps a different voice than people are accustomed to my having, maybe being a little bit more human and a little bit more sharing some of my emotion in a positive way, obviously I have to be mindful that I have these people that I work with who I consider my team, and I want to be respectful of them. And I don't want to be doing something that somehow is going to be negative or negatively received by them. And of course, that's true for my clients as well. My goodness. You know, want to make sure that I connect well with my clients and that they see me as true and authentic and that they know who they're really dealing with.

Absolutely. And so thinking about that, right, from the authenticity perspective, we often need to do a lot of introspection to figure out who our authentic self really is and then how that authentic self manifests itself in different avenues of life. At home, at work, with clients, when you're speaking and things like that. And that is often going to depend upon the people around you, which parts of you you bring to the fore. So, for instance, I'm a father of a five year old. Okay. That's a different version of myself. Still authentic me, but still different. I don't act the same way I act with Kai when I'm with opposing counsel in a negotiation. That will be weird and not very effective. Right. And so I think this segues really well into our third and final point, which is recognizing what's inside of the other side. This is the empathetic side. Right. And so we're seeing how our authentic self expression will be in many ways moderated by the people who are around us. We're going to adjust ourselves still being authentic based on the people around us. And so can you tell us more about the heart of this port, this part where we're talking about recognizing what's inside of other people?

Yes. And I love that you give that example with your relationship with Kai versus when you're, you know, managing a negotiation or in a. In a case matter. Everybody, remember what I said, everybody has a story. And in the story there are chapters. And when you think about a book with chapters, there are also characters. Well, Kai is a character, a beautiful character in your life, right? There are other people in your family that are beautiful, hopefully all characters in your life. And similarly, you have people in your work life that hopefully have a very positive experience with you and through you. And then you probably, you know, from time to time manage to meet one or two people who are negative characters. We have to figure out how do we work with all of them. You know, one of the things that I tap into when I'm dealing with somebody who's difficult is, is people that bring me joy. I, as you know, have two children who are now hard to believe, 21 and 23. So using the word children is almost feeling uncomfortable. They're young men, and by the way, they're not always the easiest to communicate with or negotiate with. You know, they have their own skill sets, but they're great examples, too. I have to look at them and listen to them so that I can have constructive conversations with them. And I do think that being a parent made a big difference in how I listen to other people. I really have come to the realization that you really don't know what has happened in somebody's life over time. Last week, today, anything could have happened, and it could have happened in their home life. It could have happened on the subway, it could have happened on the street. It could have happened in a conversation two minutes ago. And so I really like to start out conversations with people saying, so how are you? How are you doing? You know, anything new and you never know, that could be something positive or somebody who you don't even know that well, even somebody I could be on the other side of a dispute with might say, oh, you wouldn't believe what happened today. And they do a 30 second, you know, unload, if you will. Well, you suddenly realize, wow, there's a lot more going on there than what we were set to talk about. Maybe another 30 seconds or another three minutes of conversation will lessen the load there and we'll have a very different conversation as opposed to we just launch into what we were there to talk about or fight about or argue about. You know, when you're trying to put a deal together, people feel very entrenched in their positions. When you're Open to where somebody else is coming from. I just think you end up with a better result in the end. And I think when we focus on the term result, we sometimes are too finite. You could be doing a deal or negotiating something with somebody and focus only on that one element. And the truth of the matter is, depending on how you handle that discussion, that could impact a relationship for the rest of your life. You may end up having a relationship with that person that you never anticipated. You thought you were going to come in that room, resolve that issue, and never see that person again. And then it turns out that because of how you handle that conversation now, that person is going to refer business to you, or that person's going to say, you know what? I'd really like to grab a cup of coffee and get to know you better. I love to meet new and great people. I think the more people that we meet, the more we learn about humanity, and the better off we are, the better we can serve the roles that we're intended to play as we walk on this earth.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it goes back to timing, too. You'd be really surprised at what information you can get when you just ask that question. How are you? And sometimes the information comes in the words that they say. Sometimes it's in the way that they respond, right? Oh, everything's cool, or, yeah, everything's all right. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What was that? You know, especially with clients, sometimes when I'm. When I'm working with clients, I say, okay, we're pausing this conversation. What's going on? You know? And we dig deeper. Oh, let's address that issue right now. That's something I could actually help with. You didn't think I could, but, yes, this is something I could help with. In the context of a more heated business negotiation, they might have something going on where you just say, listen, it sounds like you have a lot of. A lot of stuff going on right now. Just take a second. Let's. Let's chat about this tomorrow. No rush. Because if you look back over the course of your life, there are some days where it doesn't matter what somebody does or said. They are in your way. You're a freight train. Like, huh, okay, there's my target. And it's like what they always say, Hurt people. Hurt people, right?

Yes.

So you don't want to be on the other side of that unnecessarily. So it's important to do that, intro that. That investigation and genuinely absorb the information, because that's important data that you can use to make a better decision.

100%. And I find that when you apply this type of approach, and I don't even like to put that word approach on it, it's, you know, a style or because you don't want it to be manipulative. It's not intended to be manipulative, it's intended to be authentic. I find that the majority of the time you learn something new, you learn also something that will facilitate what it is that you're trying to achieve either indirectly or directly. And that's great. And I said the majority of the time, let's not kid ourselves. There are some people out there that are just really crappy people. They just are. You know, for me, it takes me a long time to figure out that somebody is really not a good person because I am an optimist. I believe in the best of people. But sometimes there are people who just, you know, they're never going to change. Doesn't matter how pleasant and nice you are. That's not going to deter me from being who I am naturally. And I actually really embrace that and remind myself or validate myself that that's a really good part of who Ariana is, that nobody's going to deter me from being that person. I like that person.

Right. And a couple things there, because it can sometimes turn into a self fulfilling prophecy in your situation, a good self fulfilling prophecy when you are essentially giving people the benefit of the doubt. And in my book Finding Confidence in Conflict, I have a section called the Benefit of the Benefit of the Doubt. And we don't just do that because we're naive or anything like that. We, we do that because that helps us to perform at a higher level. And then let's say after numerous interactions, you just say, I gave a lot of chances here. This is just one of those few people, as my son would say in his book a Bad Egg.

I use that term.

And so that's important to know. And so when we think about empathetic stoicism and the empathy required to understand where somebody else is coming from, sometimes people are just coming bad places and you need to know that so you can adjust accordingly.

Yes. And you know, you and I have talked about issues pertaining to diversity and inclusion and I, I've shared, you know, examples of things that I've encountered as a woman. I'm not a person of color, so I can't presume to, to know some of many of the experiences that my colleagues and friends have had. And then I Have lots of colleagues who could never presume to know some of the walks I've had to walk in terms of being a woman, a female professional, and some of the things that I've experienced. And in some cases, I've seen such amazing change, really, because of changing the dialogue, changing how we come to the discussion, changing how we listen, giving it an extra minute. And then, you know, there were some people who, yeah, they're not going to be moving forward with us. They're just not. They're stuck, you know, decades back. They like it there. Nobody else likes it there. I'm not going to make any more effort to try to pull them out of there. They're just where they are. And I, you know, make myself feel better because I say to myself, you know what? It will come back to roost. At some point, you're going to have something that happens in your life, whether it's because you have a daughter or you have a granddaughter or, you know, something happens to somebody who is a female colleague or friend of yours, and suddenly you're outraged or you're incensed or you're so sad. How come you weren't like that? Just engaging with any woman? Why? And will that be a learning opportunity for you or not? Some people. Absolutely. Some people know. And when you know that, it's a no. You can stop trying. It's okay. You can stop trying. I'm a person who's pretty diligent. I stay on the path for a long time. I do keep trying. But at some point, you do realize with certain folks that it's time to move on. You don't have to keep going to that well. That well is dry.

Yeah. And think about it. Great negotiators know when to walk away.

Yes.

That's one of those situations where you just have to say, all right, well, I did my part and this is where we are right now. So this has been incredible. And I know we are way over time for what an episode usually is, but this has been great. And I think we. We've explored a lot of cool topics and explored them in a different way. A different, like a hybrid approach, stoicism and empathy, blending those things together to have a really powerful approach and mindset that we can take in our difficult conversations. And for the listeners out there who want to get in touch with you, learn more about your practice, your business, the work that you're doing, what's the best way?

Best way is via email@Atadleraddlerlaw.com or if you're in the need for data management consulting, hosting type services. You can get me@ataddleretaediscovery.com and also just go to one of our websites, toddlerlaw.com or meditediscovery.com and you can find phone numbers too. You know, we like to talk to people. We're in the service industry, so we want to have a connection with you and make sure that we're listening to what your needs are and satisfying them.

Fantastic. Arianna, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

Thank you.

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