Becoming an Advocate: Mastering Negotiation on Behalf of Others featuring Derek Burtch and Amelia Gordon

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And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Amelia and Derek, thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, excited to be here.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, it's great to have both of you. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Amelia Gordon and I was a high school English teacher in Columbus, Ohio for Columbus city schools for seven years. Recently moved to Washington D.C. and now I'm teaching sixth grade world geography and co founder of Erase the Space with Derek.

And I'm Derek Burch. I teach English and on tangy local schools and have been doing that for about 13 years. And yeah, I'm the co founder of Erase the Space with Amelia and it was a project that we built across our classrooms when she was at South High and I was at Liberty High School.

Fantastic. So let's talk about that for a little bit. What is Erase the Space and what is its purpose?

Initially, Erase the Space was a project for our students to engage in learning together outside of the segregated schools that we have. A lot of it came from Amelia and I's kind of observations and collaboration together, but it started as just a class project that we designed for our students to have authentic discourse outside of these siloed and segregated classrooms that they're in.

Fantastic. No, that makes a lot of sense and I think it's admirable. And for those who are listening who are saying segregated classrooms, but Brown v. Board was in the 1950s. When you say segregated classrooms in the modern day sense, what does that mean here?

It means the same thing it did in the 60s. Reports say that we are more segregated than ever, and if not just by race, but also by class across the United States. And that was certainly the case in our. Our two classrooms just 20 miles apart in Columbus, but worlds away. And part of what Derek's talking about in terms of, you know, helping our students understand discourse was not only did they not ever talk to each other, they rarely saw each other, they weren't even going to the same places in the city again, even though they were only 20 miles apart.

Yeah, and I think that's pretty surprising to a lot of people. But then when they take a step back and think about their experiences growing up, where their kids are going to school and what those classrooms look like, then you start to say, oh, wow, yeah, integration was a great idea, but we haven't fully realized the dream about 70 years later. So I admire what you're doing, and I think it's really important. And with this episode, what we're going to focus on is the concept of allyship. We're hearing that all over the place, all the time. And so really, I think we should start off by getting a definition on the table. But once we get beyond that point point, we're going to talk about some of the main ways that you're seeing your allyship pay off in what it is that you're doing. And so the first one is going to be negotiating for resources as an ally. And then we're going to wrap it up with two case studies. So essentially story time. And so we're going to talk about how some of these conversations are difficult and what things look like in the past pre training. And then we're going to talk about a. A conversation that went well because of training. And so we're going to essentially break those case studies down to talk about what was done well, what was done poorly, what we could do differently next time. So it'll be a great learning opportunity for everybody. But before we get into all of that, allyship, when you think about the word allyship, what does that mean to you in your world?

When I think of allyship, I think of how much my idea and understanding of that has changed since I've started to engage in and social justice work through education. For me, it is being consistent. Whether I'm talking about it in class or I'm in my life. I need to be living it. I need to be about making choices that will not perpetuate structures that still continually impact people of color and women. And we're talking like social classes. And so being an ally not just isn't just showing up when a Facebook event happens, but it's being there day in, day out for students. It's making decisions to stand up and say something, to push the boundary when somebody else doesn't, but it's also understanding my positionality and using my positionality to amplify voices and to be quiet and create space as well. So to really stay in my lane and understand that I'm part of this net and that a lot of. I think what I talked about, what I've learned over the years, is that I could come in as a bulldozer and I could come in and say, this is what I think because I'm energetic and I get real excited about things. And I think an ally is a really good listener that then is able to connect and take action.

All that I would add to what Derek brought up, particularly the points about how we live our personal lives. Teachers get to have sort of this duality, right? Like who I am at school versus who I am at home, you know, and depending on how you teach and how you live your life, sometimes those two lives never cross, really. And being an ally extends beyond the classroom, like Derek said, into your personal life. And I like to think of Dr. Bettina Love's definition of co conspirator, you know, asking to move beyond allyship and to be willing to lose something. And as a white teacher, as a white woman, I really try to think about when there are opportunities for me to put myself on the line so somebody else doesn't have to. What am I willing to lose, per se, for what I think is right? It's very easy to say I'm an ally and put something on social media or put a sign in your yard, you know, but are you willing to stand up when it's uncomfortable, when you might make somebody angry, when you might get some backlash from parents, from your colleagues, from your family? Those are often the hardest opportunities to be the ally that we want to say we are. And another part of that is also redistributing wealth when you can, you know, using. And we're going to talk about resources, but when resources come your way, when you have resources, how you distribute those resources in a way that reflects your values.

That's great. Yeah. And let's use that as a segue right now, because when I think about the trainings that we've done with ANI recently, it's a lot of it, of course, is with negotiation and conflict. Resolution in general, but now difficult conversations about race. That's coming up more and more often. And I'm recognizing how few people think about allyship through the lens of negotiation. Because, again, the way that we define negotiation here at the American Negotiation Institute is any conversation where somebody in the conversation wants something. And then when you think about it that way, we're negotiating all the time. And when you put that lens, that strategic lens over these interactions now, you can be a lot more intentional about the way that you're approaching these conversations, and you can be more strategic and persuasive through it. So now, as we think about negotiating and allyship being essentially inextricably bound together, what does that look like in your role when you are an ally and you're advocating and negotiating for these resources in your experience, what has that looked like?

I think to go back to our original project that is now replicated in other classrooms and has shifted in some of its focus. We go back and think about all the things that Amelia and I negotiated when thinking about our students and how to engage them in this work. The entire project was a process of two teachers and teaching in different situations with students that have different realities in front of them. And our job was to make sure that they were able to engage with each other in a way that wasn't dependent on power structures, that wasn't dependent on things that separated them. And we had to really think a lot about how we created this space for conversation. We'd seen a lot of things that had not considered this and had not negotiated the differences beforehand. And so when we're talking about negotiating for resources, it started with us thinking about the people in front of us and really looking at what the need was. So one of the needs was to have a space where both felt slightly uncomfortable but could identify safety. So we picked a library because we didn't want them going to each other's schools. It was an issue that Amelia and I negotiated and thought about and came to a decision that then allowed us to then say, okay, now we gotta find some money. Cause we need to feed students when they're there. And so we started to have negotiating for resources. And our role as allies were as teachers. Okay, we were attempting to not just negotiate the resources, but the structures through which those resources were given and the shared experience with them.

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No, this is brilliant. I really like this point because I think this demonstrates just how challenging this is, while at the same time demonstrating how many unique negotiation opportunities exist when it comes to being an effective ally here. Because, like you said, in this situation, you want to create a space where people from different backgrounds, different schools, who don't have an organic opportunity to interact, can have these conversations so they can learn from each other. So it's a. It's a really admirable goal. But then you say, hey, your turf, my turf. Where do we go? And so that's a challenge that was identified because you were listening, right? Because on the surf, from the outside, you might not recognize that this is such a daunting experience for somebody going into a new environment and then having to have a difficult conversation on a challenging subject. And so once you took the time to listen, when the students express that concern, then you can say, all right, so this is the negotiation. Now we have to answer the question where and when it comes down to negotiation, Essentially, this is just creative problem solving. And so you're bringing all the voices to the. To the table and having this negotiation to see how we can meet everybody's needs. And then the next part is, all right, now we have some actual logistical challenges, but also some resource challenges as it relates to paying for these things. I think that's what people go to as the obvious negotiation. But sometimes you have to have these other things in place in order to get to the right negotiation, too. And so kind of continuing this conversation on negotiating for resources. Amelia, can you tell us a little bit more about how you were able to make sure that you were negotiating for the right things?

When Derek's talking about the beginning of our project, the needs were pretty apparent because it just was two classrooms, right? It was like, we need food for the kids. We need a space to meet. We need transportation to get them there. Although not as simple as it seemed. Right. And something we just pointed out. We needed a neutral location because we didn't want the you're hosting, I'm visiting. Let's look at each other's schools and make assumptions. We didn't, we didn't want that. We didn't want people bringing their lunches or not. So we wanted to provide the same food materials because the kids were making posters together. We, you know, we didn't want them to show up with different materials. We provided everything the same, best we could. But again, like that was pretty contained because it just was two class, our two classrooms. But once we started to bring in other teachers into the mix, we realized, of course, people are on different points in their journey in terms of their beliefs around allyship or co conspiratorship and what it means to be a teacher leading this kind of experiment between students. And so what we really decided we needed and that we was our greatest resource need, I would say, Derek, you can correct me if, if you disagree, was to outsource our education as teachers to people in our community who were already doing this work around anti racist, anti bias education. How to have difficult conversations, the history of our community. All of a sudden it became very apparent that the teachers leading this project needed to have some strong background in not just how to have difficult conversations, how to lead students through different difficult conversations, how to have those conversations in the moment. Because it doesn't, you can't go home and think about it all the time. It has to happen sometimes right then and there, as well as some history on this community and why we were doing this project in the first place. So we really shifted away from markers and, and food, we still need that. Right. But to fundraising and grant writing so that we could pay people who were already doing this work to come in and work with our teachers. And you know, almost five years later, I think we remain pretty steadfast in that being our most valued and important resource.

Yeah, this is great because when you think about negotiating as an ally, it's easy to think about us versus them. Whoever them happens to be in the moment. It's the people who don't agree with us, the power structures, whatever it is. But what you're, what you've identified here is that the people with whom we negotiate the most are the people who are closest to us. And so this is how it is in general with negotiation. And so again, if you don't identify these conversations with your fellow allies as negotiations, it's really easy for people to get disenchanted, frustrated, and vilify each other because we're saying, no, I want to do it this way. You want to do it another way? Are you bad? Am I bad? What's happening here? But if you take the time to say, oh, this is a negotiation, we have a challenge, and we're going to jointly work together to address that challenge now. Okay, now we can find some strategic and cooperative solutions to this situation.

Early on, when we started to tell people about our project, we got some early offers to come and, and talk to other teachers about our work almost in the anti bias, anti racist training space. And I think what you're bringing up about us versus them, initially it became we were concerned that all of a sudden we were being thrown into another pot of people doing sort of the same work, and that we were competing somehow for resources or money or with other people in the community who were already doing this, had been doing it for a long time, were much better suited to the work. And we wanted to immediately remove ourselves from that pot and to see ourselves more as in conversation with all of those people. We were not competing with them. Rather, we wanted to partner with them in this large project to benefit youth and teachers. And I just think you're absolutely right in terms of negotiation, especially once you have something that people are interested in, a project, an idea, something that people will put you in competition with other people instead of thinking of it as you're part of a larger web, a larger community.

Yeah. And essentially what you're demonstrating here is it's addition through subtraction. Right. You could have inserted yourself in that position. But then you think about it strategically. What is my unique value add? Oh, there are other people already doing this. Well, let me amplify what they're doing and then be that connector. And it takes a lot of humility and self awareness to recognize that, because especially when you're ambitious, you're trying to create change and work towards equity and justice. You want to do all the things, but sometimes the best strategic decision is for you to say that person should be doing this thing. And that's another negotiation that you're having.

As well with yourself. It was a lot of conversation between Amelia and myself as we have started to grow to, to continue to stay in our lane. Because we know that as connectors, we can be part of that web and then not compete for resources and take them away or take up space from people who are the people for that position. And I think just that that also brings it back to the original. You know, I'm working part time for a race to space, but I'm teaching part time as well, because part of the, the allyship for us as teachers in our positionality is doing work in schools. It is going and talking to administration.

Right.

It is trying to make sure that you are teachers are oftentimes procuring resources in really creative ways for students. So I think that a part of what we've been doing, we were talking about our nonprofit work, but that stems from the creativity that we've been doing for a long time in the classroom. Just experimenting with meeting students needs and different strategies to do that. So yeah, allyship can be creative as well.

Absolutely. And again, we have to go back to what's fueling all of this. You wouldn't be able to recognize what your lane is and what other people's lanes are if you weren't listening. And that's one of the critical elements of effective allyship. And so I think what we can do now is shift toward the case studies that we discussed. And so Amelia, I'll let you take the lead here and kind of set the stage. Let us know about the situation and then we'll analyze.

So this was our first year, our very first eraser space project. And the very first assignment for students is to write a letter of introduction. And we just leave it at that. Kids can write whatever they want, however they want, share as much or as little as they want to with this unknown person at another school. They don't even know who they're writing to quite yet. And we also allow them to share a picture or an emoji or a cartoon character, whatever they want to represent who they are, or they can choose not to share a picture at all. And I will add this is an interesting just fact that first year that Derrick students overwhelmingly shared pictures of themselves. And just for context, these are largely white suburban students in Columbus largely shared pictures of themselves. And whereas my students, predominantly black students in Columbus City, decided not to share pictures of themselves. There were a lot of cartoons or you know, other clip art that was shared instead. And so the very first event after writing their letters is they get the, their partner's letters in the classroom. It's super exciting. Like kids are always, you know, we tell them to be quiet, like read their letter and like reflect, but they're, you know, they're shouting now they want to read parts of their letter they're sharing with their friends. It's super exciting. And I had one student who looked at her letter from her partner in Derek's classroom, looked at the letter, looked at the picture, like turned it over and body language just, you know, sat Back, arms crossed, not happy. And so I went up and I said, you know, what's going on? She said, I don't like my partner. And I said, why? And she was like, I don't like the picture she shared with me. And this was an actual picture of the student. And she is posed in a basketball jersey and is sort of throwing up signs, like, throwing up her hands or like a peace sign, upside down peace sign, like, with her hands, and kind of has like a. Like a sassy look on her face. I don't know how else to describe it. And my student was like, I don't like this picture. I don't like that she shared it with me. So to clarify, my student. The student I'm talking about is a young black woman, and her partner is a young white woman. They're both ninth graders at this time. So just for context. And so my student says, you know, I don't like her. I don't like her because if I had sent that picture to her, she would have thought I was ghetto. So I don't like that she sent it to me. And at the moment, you know, I'm in the classroom, there's other kids. I'm having this conversation at my student's desk. And in the moment, I didn't know what to say. I understood what she was saying to me. I agreed with her. That was very. That was a very real, very true statement. And that's something that Derek and I unpacked about this process later. Both about the images kids share, the way they write, and the things that they share in their letters, that all of this, of course, has an impact. And because they're not sitting together, the way another student receives that information is, we don't know how it's going to go. And so what she was saying to me at the moment, I remember thinking, absolutely right. But I hesitated because if I'm honest with myself, I didn't want to derail the project. You know, I wanted it to continue. So my ego was definitely there. You know, we were just starting. I was like, oh, no, is this going to unravel right here? And I didn't know how I think, to say, yes, you're right, without vilifying the other student. But I also didn't want to say, oh, I'm sure she didn't mean it that way, because I didn't know that. And I felt like that was also, as a white teacher, sort of giving that other white student the benefit of the doubt and minimizing the concerns of My student. So instead I just didn't say much at all. I said, we'll talk about this later. And I took a step back.

This is a powerful story and it seems so simple from the outside. But then once you go deeper, you recognize there are a lot of layers to this, a lot of layers. And what's interesting too, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it as well, we're recognizing the discrepancy between the two individuals in the interaction because different people bring different things to every single interaction. Right. And so for the student who sent that picture, they probably thought about it as this isolated type of thing. This is a picture. Maybe, who knows? Maybe they say this is me trying to build rapport. We don't know the intent, but regardless, it was probably localized in this moment. But then for your student, the African American student, she probably brought a lot of history to that interaction. And so when that's happening, what are the challenges of managing that type of complex interaction?

You're managing your existing relationship with that student. You're managing a relationship with your other teacher in the other classroom. You're managing your relationship with that student in your partner's classroom as well as probably it's impacting the way you're thinking about and negotiating those other partnerships. There's a lot that's woven in here, and it was something that Amelia and I spent a lot of time talking about and thinking of how to essentially create a life enriching situation for both students. This is some of like the nonviolent communication language that we have learned and try to utilize. I think of that as a negotiation. It's just trying to find the win in it all. And it meant that Amelia and I had to circle back and close the loop, that this was not going to be something that.

Was.

Maybe there's a 1 million chance that, that if we didn't step in as allies and teachers in our positionality to re engage the conversation, that it might have happened. But without the people that have that position going to both of those students when they're sophomores, which we did, and say, hey, I had to go to my student and say, hey. This happened because I chose not to say anything. I didn't know how that was going to take. The way that they came into a room together, which we can probably can say now after Amelia's story that when they got into the room together, they like, loved each other and were able. They texted each other afterwards and are both freshmen in college now and are still in contact. But if we didn't a year later, because we're still thinking about it, because it's necessary. Go back to those students and say, I go to my students, say, hey, this happened, and we have an opportunity. If you'd like to, like, sit down and have a conversation about it and how you move forward through that and how it reframes your experience now that you know that. And Amelia goes to her student and says, I think that your partner is willing to sit down and chat. Is this something you want to do? And so it was a big pivot and learning experience in a way that one that a failure doesn't mean it's over, that it just means there's an opportunity and more hard work probably in front of you to figure it out. And that when students tell you these things, it's a diamond. It's so valuable for us to take that seriously and then put it into our practice. It's not just so that we can know more about that student. It's so that we can connect with them and then alter our behavior as allies, as educators, as anybody that's working in social justice or with young people in general. It's that very valuable feedback.

Yeah. And so let's break this down. So let's start with Amelia, what you said about your ego. And so when you have your ego, essentially what's happening is you're focusing on you, your needs, your emotional needs, and sometimes your substantive needs. And so emotionally, you wanted this to really go well. That was the focus. And then you wanted the program to go smoothly externally, so there was an internal need and an external need there. But that focus on your needs would make it difficult for you to fully appreciate the complexity of the interaction. And so when it comes to effective communication in general, and especially when we're trying to be effective allies, we need to put the other people first in order to get a full understanding. And then, Derek, one of the keys that you said that I really want people to focus on is the word opportunity. Opportunity. Conflict is an opportunity. These difficult situations provide us with opportunities to create connection. And a lot of times the mistake that people make is that they shy away from these opportunities because they're afraid, and these fears are legitimate. But once you have those skills necessary of difficult communication, nonviolent communication, and persuasion, those type of things, then you can re engage the situation in a way that makes it more likely for the relationship to be intact, and that's really, really powerful. And I want to highlight the difference between the way that, Derek, you engaged your student in that situation. And, Amelia, you engaged your student because, again, it shows a very interesting nuance because, Derek, what you said was that you said, hey, this happened. Just state the facts of what occurred without adding a value judgment to it. Very difficult to do, by the way, just stating the facts as it is and say, we have an opportunity. We can fix this. And then, Amelia, when you go to your student, you say, this happened. I acknowledge the fact that this had an impact on you and you didn't like this. What would you like us to do? Because you don't want to put a position. Put somebody in a position where they are the aggrieved party and say, now you are forced to engage if you don't feel comfortable. So, Amelia, I want to step back and get your thoughts there.

Yeah. The only thing I can give myself credit for in that interaction now, five years ago, was that I did say, you know, you don't have to continue with this if you don't want to. And if you want to not do this, that's okay. If you want me to find you a different partner, that's okay, too. And that I took a moment, and I can talk about that and how that's informed my practice sense, but taking a moment, I think, is okay. Now, I took too long of a moment in this one. It took too long for us to circle back what Derek brought up. My student graciously said, I'll continue with the project, which gave her and her partner an opportunity to connect a little bit more. Like Derek brought up, when they eventually met, they got along, but we didn't have this conversation with them until a year later because they had stayed in contact, and they had stayed in contact with us. So that relationship was there. It should have happened much sooner. And what you're bringing up to my role as my student's teacher was to give her an out and then to also address the situation myself. It was my job to tell Derek to address this with his student. Or for me, if it had happened in person, it would have been my job to address the harm, whether it was meant to be harmful or not, to address that incident right away and relieve my student of any responsibility of doing that. To address it, to educate, to make somebody feel better if they feel bad about what has transpired. It's that impact versus intent conversation. Right? Your intent just doesn't matter. The impact does. But to Derek's point, it is an opportunity. And in a negotiation, it's important to remind yourself it's an opportunity, it's a gift. If Someone trusts you enough to come to you and say, hey, this is upsetting me, particularly when we talk about racial. I'm saying this with quotations, microaggressions, because they're not micro, but particularly when we're talking about race. If somebody comes to you and is. Is able to say, this is. This happened and this was upsetting to me, it's a gift. And the way that you respond really is going to make or break that relationship moving forward, whether it's student to teacher, adult to an adult, you have to recognize that if somebody's willing to address you in that way about race in this country, then you are being given a really big gift.

Absolutely. No, I think that is great. I think it is great. And then, Amelia, one last thing. Revisiting the pause. Because giving yourself feedback, you say, all right, one year is too much of a pause, right? And so in that moment, if you could go back, what would have been an appropriate amount of time for you to gather yourself, gather your thoughts, think through it, and then re.

Engage the conversation, I would have given myself. I mean, in the classroom is not the best time to have a reflective space when you're in the middle of teaching a class. So I would have given myself overnight, especially if I was the teacher then that I am now. I think that's hard too. You know, it was my third year teaching, fourth year teaching, and any good teacher will admit that, like every year you get a little bit better, but every year you're also overwhelmed by all the things you don't know. And I think now I give myself at least 24 hours when something has happened, to address it in that impactful way that I want to address it now. That means still in the moment. It doesn't mean you don't do anything in the moment. You know, if it's happening in your classroom, if you're seeing somebody say something offensive or racist in your classroom, you can't say, we'll talk about that tomorrow. You have to shut it down in the moment. But in terms of repairing or discussing, I do give myself now an overnight time. That's translated also to the expectation now, and I think it's the right one, that we're talking about current events in our classrooms, that there's been a huge push for every teacher to be talking about anti racist, anti bias education and to inform their practice that way. But that means having difficult conversations in the classroom with large groups of students. And the way that our country is, it means that those difficult conversations are happening seemingly every week. Like, they seem to happen all the time. And for example, in this last couple weeks here, with the rise in anti Asian racism and the events in Georgia, I came to class the next day and I told my sixth graders, like, I'm really upset about this. This is really bothering me. I'm not in the space to talk about it right now, but I do need you to know that this is happening. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, if you look at the news and I opened up a padlet, which is like an online sort of sticky board where they can like put little post itself. And I said, if you want to say something right now, you can put it in the padlet. I'll read them and then we'll talk about it. And I gave myself. That was like, that was on a Thursday, so that I gave myself till the next week. And I had a lesson plan ready to go. Because sometimes you just, you need, like you said, to attend to your own individual needs first before you can effectively guide other people. If you're in a position of, like.

Being a teacher, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And again, I think people make the mistake of putting too much time or putting so much time to the point where the issue becomes moot. And then they say, oh, guess it's okay now. It's just a way out. And I think that 24 hour shot clock is really good because you can gather yourself, think it through, and approach it in a more intentional way and with a little bit more clarity as well. And then I really like the distinction that you made where you talked about. But if something is serious that is currently occurring in this moment, then you really have no choice but to take action in the moment too. Right? So I like that distinction. And then now, with the time we have left, Derek, I want to throw it to you with your case study on the importance of listening as an ally and also the difficulty in listening effectively in general, but especially as an ally. So can you tell us about that?

Yeah, I think that listening as an ally means that there's always learning, especially when you're interacting with so many different people, so many different students, um, that listening and pausing like Amelia's talking about allows one for the phrasing I like is to. For me to not think about what I'm going to say next. Just listening to what that person is telling me helps me connect with them and it grounds me in conversation, but it also allows me to. The pause that Amelia's talking about allows me to, to take Some time as the conversation, as I'm feeling my body maybe react. I now have this vocabulary of feelings and needs that we've worked on with Erase the Space to hone our practice. It's something that comes up in my personal life now as an ally. And the case study that you're referencing was a phone call I got in June of 2020 from a former Erase the Space student who has been very involved over the past four years and still continues to stay involved through conversation. But it was a phone call that I wasn't expecting. I thought that I was doing really great work. I thought that I was, you know, checking all the boxes and that I had considered everything. At least that's how I was operating. And the student said, hey, like, is school over? And I was like, what she's like, is, so you're not. We're not teacher student anymore? I was like, yeah. She goes, okay, let's talk about Erase the Space then. And it was just like this gut punch. And I could feel it in my body because I'm like, I know her tone. I know that she has something to say. And I had this. I had this moment to make a decision. Do I lean into everything that Amelia and I have been learning and trying to provide for our students, where I. I lean into the tension, and I understand that on the other side of that is something wonderful, or do I clam up and protect this thing that I've worked on for four years and not accept the feedback and these diamonds that she's about to offer me? And it was a fight. It was really. I could feel it as a. Like, a tension in my body. And I had to say. And I had to, like, think, like, you're feeling. You're feeling anxious, you're feeling protective, and, like, that's okay, but you need to shut up, and you need to just listen to what this person has to say. So I did. And I could feel my body kind of, like, calm throughout the conversation. And what the conversation entailed was just a real honest asking for both. For me specifically to consider what it meant for me as a white educator to be running and co running this nonprofit, Erase the Space with another white educator, and to consider my actions in my building because she is a student that went to school in my school and was involved in those activities. And she called me to courage to not dance, in her words, not dance around white people. So to really negotiate with them and actually get into the arena and to have these conversations rather than to have these conversations in a Large structural level and avoid them in my building. And it was something that I. At first, like I said, I could feel my body clamp, like, you know, putting a shell on. And throughout that conversation, my heart just opened up. And it was just this transformative conversation, because then I called Amelia, like, hey, I just had this conversation. I need to talk about it. And we both said, like, that's actually sounds like the direction we need to go in, and we need to call ourselves to higher ground when we're. When we're asking other teachers to join us there. And we. We reshaped. Erase the space. 20, 20, 20, 21. Around feedback from the student who had the bravery to. I mean, I. I gave her her diploma to bravery to call up and say, like, I got something to say to you. And it happened because after the case study that Amelia referenced, we went on this journey to continually consider these things and seek out community educators that could help us do that.

This is great. I love this case study because it validates my experience as somebody who's trying to get better at listening. I have an ego that kind of puts me in a difficult situation sometimes in these conversations, when I'm listening effectively, it hurts. Like, it's something that I can feel. I don't like the feeling that I get when somebody's sharing something that I disagree with or something that's hurtful, something that makes me feel defensive. And I think really, one of the key takeaways is that you can become a better listener. Listening is a skill, but that doesn't mean that listening effectively will always feel good, because in that moment, that hurts. It really hurts. And again, going back to something Amelia said earlier, the ego can get in the way, because when your ego is feeling threatened, you're focusing on yourself. And Derek, in this situation, it would have prevented you from focusing on the gems that you were about to get and really going back to something you said earlier. Derek, I believe you said that being an ally is being willing to learn, right? And so it's two steps. It's being willing to learn and then put that learning into action. And so this conflict provided you with an opportunity, an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to see things from a different perspective. You absorb that learning, and then you use that to make the situation better. And what's very interesting to me is that part of this program that you've created for these students is all about having these difficult conversations and encouraging them to do so. So in reality, you essentially gave that student the skills to have this difficult conversation with you in a meaningful way.

Yes. And at the same time as I was learning. So she was part of the first group to go through it, just like those other two students. She was getting those skills to speak her truth while I was getting the skills to listen. And as a teacher, it may not be the most loud thing that's pronounced as it is as important to the job, you know, knowledge. And it's all about, like, what you know, it's really, how well do you listen?

That's great, Amelia. I see. I see you nodding.

Yeah, I just. I mean, I love that it is how well you listen. And then when you realize that you don't know something which a good teacher knows, that they, like, don't know a whole lot, honestly, you know that all of your students are different. You don't know that much about them. You know, and when you do learn, when you do get called to action and you know that you need to learn more, do you go out and learn more and try to effectively respond to what your students are asking you to know, or do you say, I already know it all or I'm not interested in knowing that, you know, that's not. You're not that important to me. I don't need to learn that much about what you're asking me to know. And we get. Because of our position. I think a lot of teachers get caught up in feeling like they have to know everything before they embark on any difficult journey with students. And the minute you can let that go and just know that you. You won't ever know it all. And it won't always like what you said, feel good or be easy. And as long as you're just willing to keep trying and to do right the best you can by your students, it'll be okay.

Exactly. Oh, this is great. And again, one last point there. It really shows the power of your continued education in this role, how to be an ally, learning these communication skills. And really, one of the things you mentioned earlier, Derek, was the fact that if this conversation would have happened four or five years ago, it probably wouldn't have gone as well. But because you've gone through these training programs, it improved your ability to be a good ally because you're able to sit in the discomfort of these conversations and. And listen effectively and then do what you need to do in order to be an effective ally on the back end.

And that's really the. Our work that we have been doing with the Race to Space. We started as a project, and now we have this network of teachers that are working with us because we're trying to push against systemic inequality and systemic racism and segregation, housing segregation. Those are the structures that we identify as things we're pushing against. But if we aren't living, I'm going to drop Adrienne Maree Brown's name here because I love dropping her name because her writing is wonderful. If we aren't living fractally, if we aren't living the same way in our personal lives that we want to live and do an impact on this larger scale, then it has no foundation underneath it. And so these case studies, just these experiences and reflecting on them are all something that build to this larger idea. And just I'm glad we got to talk about them because a lot of times we're talking about these larger things that we're. We're aiming at, but it's so important to see these stories on the ground.

Absolutely. Well, I really appreciate you all coming in and talking about this. This is really helpful, and I feel like this episode can be a major part of somebody's allyship toolkit. You know, I think you've helped to equip a lot of people about how to have these difficult conversations. And before you go, can you just give one last shout out to Erase the Space and let people know how they can get involved, how they can support and connect with all of you?

Sure you can find us. We are most active on Instagram. We've employed our Gen Z students to help us with running an Instagram account and redoing our website, which is erasethespace.org and there you can find Derek and I's contact information. And you can support Erase the Space by following us on social media and amplifying the work of our students. And if you're willing and able to donate to us through our website, that money will go directly to the teachers who are learning and preparing to implement Erase the Space in their classrooms next year and to our community educators who work with our program.

Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks. Kwame.

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I'll catch you later, Sam.