Becoming an Authentic Persuader with Jason Cutter

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Jason, thanks for joining us today.

I'm so excited to be here. Kwame, this is going to be exciting.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I'm returning the favor here. You had me on your show, which was a lot of fun, and now I'm really glad to have you on mine.

It's interesting how much of that intersection negotiating and what you focus on and sales, and obviously most people realize that, but you know, how many actually do it well. And you're amazing at the negotiation side. So this. I'm excited.

Well, thank you. And I'm excited for you because you're amazing at the sales side. This is perfect. So how about we start off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I am currently a sales success consultant. So I help individual sales reps and companies improve their performance, transform their sales teams, increase sales effectiveness. I've been in sales for a long time, and my focus is really anything that would help somebody perform better, whether it's scripts or training, mindset, coaching, lead generation. You know, that whole part, there's so many different factors that come into play for salespeople to be successful. And, you know, there's a lot of ways that I can help.

Fantastic. Yes. And you have a book coming out, too. Can you tell the audience a bit about that?

Yeah. So what I did was I synthesized what I have done to be successful in sales as well as the hundreds and hundreds of salespeople I have seen come and the masses I have unfortunately seen go from sales careers where, you know, it wasn't a good fit or they didn't have the right tools. And I have put that together into a book, and it's called Selling with Authentic Transforming from Order Taker to Quota Breaker. And really the premise behind that is me. And we'll probably get into this somewhat, but I'm an awkward, shy, only child who has a degree in marine biology and spent years tagging sharks. And on paper, there's no reason I should be effective at selling. And I think a lot of the reasons why I am and the people I've seen that are really good at it is because they're just authentic and they know how to persuade. So it's not just about being authentic and being nice and being who you are and having empathy. You also got to take some action, which I know you talk a lot about, which is, you know, the persuasion part and being proactive and intentional. And so that's the goal of the book, is to help those people who maybe fell into. Accidentally ended up into a sales career. And they don't know if they can. They can make it. They want to, but they don't want to manipulate and they're afraid of, you know, using tricks and tactics. And, you know, my goal is to help people see there's another way.

That's fantastic. Yeah, this is great. Well, for this episode, we're going to focus on three top topics. So we have the difference between sales and negotiation. Empathetic reversal, which I think is such a cool term. I'm excited to get into that. And then the higher authority close. So when it comes to sales and negotiation, a lot of times people conflate those two art forms. But in your perspective, what are the differences between the two?

Well, I think, you know, sales, as most people would think about it, is, you know, the act should be, in my opinion, the act of helping somebody buy. Right. Like, people, they say all the time, people don't like to be sold to, they like to buy. And I think that's really the goal. And if we're talking about sales in terms that I think about, which is where somebody, the prospect, the buyer needs help making a decision, then that's where somebody else comes in, the sales professional. So we're not talking about when somebody needs to just order something that's easy, and they can just go online and they can buy it themselves, or they can call in, you know, like ordering off a catalog, like back in the old days, where you just call in, you get somebody in customer service, they're taking an order, and then that's it. Sales is about helping somebody identify what it is. That they need and then seeing if you have the right solution for that and then moving that transaction, that communication forward. Right. So, you know, using the thought and the idea of a consultative close, where it's like understanding the person, then moving them forward, that would be sales. Now, negotiation, to me, is about when two people maybe are on different ends or have two different goals or there might be something in common, is trying to find that common ground to then move it forward or, you know, for both sides to get what they want and win in some fashion.

Right. And I think the connection between the two disciplines is really clear, and I think that's why it's so tough for people to often see the difference. But I really like the approach that you have when it comes to the definition of sales, helping somebody to make a decision, because with that, it completely shifts the way that people think about it, because oftentimes it's, how can I convince them that this is the right decision or. Or almost, maybe in a more nefarious way, how can I force them to make the decision I want them to? And so when it comes to helping them make the right decision, what is the challenge for the prospect when it comes to making the right decision?

Well, the biggest challenge is the fact that there is a small and or large part of all of our brains that literally thinks it's thousands and thousands of years ago and it's on the savannah or it's in a cave, and there's something trying to kill it, kill us at every moment. And it's better to see 10 tigers that aren't real but be afraid all the time of anything that's going to happen versus missing one tiger and then being killed. Right. Like our brains want to keep us alive long enough to procreate. And that's pretty much it. Now, of course, in our common reality, for most people, there's not too much to be afraid of like that, but our brain is still afraid of change. And that's the biggest challenge that salespeople come up against, is eons and eons, eons of brain wiring that makes people afraid of change. Obviously, if you go to the store and you need to buy some new paper towels and you know your brand is out, you got to pick a different one. That's a low barrier to change. Maybe it's a low risk. You might still hate it. I don't know. I bought some bad paper towels in the past that, you know. But, like, then there's bigger choices. A car, a house, anything like that. It represents change. Change equals Scary things that could happen and, or death. And as a sales professional, your goal is to help that qualified prospect with a need or a want get past their fears and their comfort zone and that, that, that fear of change and really, you know, take action for their sake.

Oh, this is great. Yeah. And I agree completely. A lot of times what it seems like is that people are conflating comfort and familiarity with safety or the right decision. Right. So they feel that if I'm feeling safe, if I'm feeling comfortable, this must be the right decision. And it's a difficult barrier to overcome to get somebody to accept a change. But I think the key is helping them to feel more certain in the decision that they're making.

And that's really one of the primary goals of a sales professional or somebody in any kind of a sales role is. And the persuasion process is to help somebody feel comfortable, feel safe, and really identify two things. One is that nothing bad will happen in that outcome. Right. This is going to be something that's going to work for them, you know, be effective. Whether you're selling TVs or you're helping somebody get out of debt, it's still the same process. The other part is to help ensure that the prospect, that person you're dealing with, the reasons why they want something, right, their goal, their get out of pain, whatever that is, is bigger than their fears that are keeping them in their comfort zone. Like, once you can tip the balance such that the reason why they want to make this change is bigger than the reason why they want to stay the same, then you have change and you see that a lot. Using an example most people are familiar with is either changing your finances or changing your health. When the reason why, like somebody has a heart attack and their doctor says, you better change or else they. Then somebody starts eating better or working out. And so that why has to be bigger than the wiring in our brain.

It sounds like one of the key differences between sales and negotiation is that with sales, the person might not be sure that a decision will be made or which person will get the decision. So for instance, if it's Qatar Consulting Group versus A ABC Sales Corp. Those type of things, they're trying to make that decision. But then when we transition into a negotiation, we make that transition. When they've more or less committed to making a decision, we're just trying to figure out the details of the decision.

Yeah. And I think that's very valid because the sales process is one where you're identifying and then moving people forward. Right. So You've got to tell that. And then the negotiation side is something different. And what we had talked about in the past, you and I often was my view in a sales role is that if you end up getting into a lot of negotiations, you've almost done it wrong in the sales process. Because if you're negotiating a lot, let's say on price, then either you didn't understand their problem enough to give them the value in your solution such that the price doesn't matter, or you didn't understand their situation and their budget and then you shot for the moon and then it became this battle, right? Like, not everyone is in the market to buy a Ferrari. So if you pitch everybody your Ferrari, like, it's not going to be a good fit, but if you can figure out why somebody you know can afford it, what the value is and why they need, then there is no negotiation, right? In my opinion is it's. Here's what it is, here's the solution. You don't negotiate with your doctor and say, hey, well, I know you want to give me this, but can I get this instead? Right? Like, I know you want to fix my broken leg, but could we. And some people do that. I'll tell you what's interesting is some people do negotiate with their doctor and say, I know you think we should do this treatment, but can we do something else instead? And to me, that means there was a breakdown in the process between the patient and the doctor and the trust and that whole process, which you know is in line with the way you would do sales as well.

Does your company invest in professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year. If you think you might to want want one, I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. This is really cool to me. Very, very cool because, and for the listeners, here's why. There are different genres of negotiation, right? So for me, coming as a, as a lawyer, legal negotiations, there's already an established conflict in those type of Situations. And same with being a mediator. We're using negotiation skills. But for me, it's pulling parties closer together within a workplace. We're all on the same team. We're trying to figure out how we can collaboratively work together to find the right solution so the negotiation looks different. And so in the sales context, what we're doing through the process, if we do it the right way, it sounds like what we're doing is minimizing the need for negotiation because we're qualifying the lead beforehand to see whether or not they can afford this. And then during the conversation, we're trying to figure out what the precise problem is. And then if we put those two things together, what we're doing is we're coming up with the right solution at the right price. And if you do that well, then there doesn't need to be much negotiation on the back end.

Exactly. I mean, that's the big thing for me. And going back to your kind of example or framework and your experience from the legal side, which is there is a automatic conflict already, you know, that's triggering this event where there's attorneys involved or there's this mediation or this arbitration or a meeting with sales. The challenge is, is that most people out there in the world view salespeople in a negative light. And so they just think of that shady, slick salesperson. Like the term that most people instantly conjure up is the used car salesperson. Whether or not that's appropriate anymore. That's just what people, you know, has been handed down. And you know, that's what people are worried about. They're afraid of going to that car dealership or calling into that, you know, off of that letter they received. You know, they want the help, but they're also worried about what's going to happen. And that's when you get into the negotiation, is when the prospect views the salesperson or the sales process as this embedded battle. When I was a kid, my mom is a banker, my dad is an engineer. So I grew up in a non sales household. In fact, I grew up in an anti sales sales household such that when we would go buy a car, my mom would be there, we would be there for five hours usually because my mom would battle the car salesperson and negotiate and then they'd have to get a manager and then she'd negotiate with the manager because she, after being in banking, she viewed salespeople in a negative light because she saw so much fraud. So she just applied that broadly. And so what happens, she went into those in battle mode versus, you know, when it's done in a different way.

This is a great example. And so let's say, let's use an example like that where somebody has the mentality that salespeople are bad actors and they put up their defenses. As a salesperson, what can you do to try to reframe the conversation in a way that makes it more likely for the person to engage?

Well, it's interesting because it's probably going to lead into the second point, which I won't jump to it, about the empathetic reversing, but really it's about not doing the things that will trigger the prospect. You know, using the term prospect, not trigger them to think that you're a salesperson, but instead think of you more as a consultant, no matter what you're doing, even if you're selling. If I were to sell cars, my goal is to sell cars and make a commission. However, there's a different way we can have the conversation and I can have a different motivation with you because I want to help you, and that's how I'm going to win is when I help you win and when you're happy. And so not doing the things that other salespeople might do that trigger all of those alarm bells, like the overexcitedness, the over rapport, the crazy over the top. There's place for some of those slick closing lines. But the hey, if I can show you how to save money today, is this something you want to buy before you leave? Those kind of things say, oh, my gosh, this is a sales interaction. This means there's going to be some kind of thing and I might set off alarm bells.

You know what's interesting about this? And you're in this world, so you tell me if there's any validity to that, because those types of kind of high pressure sales techniques, those are what were taught for many, many years back in the day. And it seems as though those same techniques have been used and overused to the point where people say, okay, I get it now when I hear somebody say this, this is what it means. And so it might have had some validity and some success back in the day, but now if you use those exact same line, like you said, those are trig to tell people it's time to put up my defenses.

Yeah, well, and just like, you know, there's people who do lots of cold calling for a living and telemarketers, and if I were to call you Kwame and say, oh, hi, hi, Kwame, my Name is Jason. How are you today? Oh, that's great. Do you have a few minutes? Like, instantly? You know what this is? This is something you don't want, right? It's instantly a cold call. The alarms go off. And there's nothing wrong with cold calls. A lot of business gets done that way. I have my own opinions, kind of for and against it. But the key is to not trigger those things that make people say, oh my gosh, I got to put my defenses up. I got to have a battle. Same thing in sales. There's a lot of salespeople who are excited. If I'm excited and I'm talking to you, it means that there must be something in it for me, right? There's some reason I'm excited. And if that's the case, then you're going to wonder, what's the catch? Where's the gotcha? Like, where is this going to happen? And the thing is, those techniques do work. Not the manipulation side. I mean, those do work, but like all those other things, they do work. And people are effective at selling to a certain level. And people do buy anyway. Now, they could have buyer's remorse. They could be upset later. It could be bad for the reputation of the company. There's also people who they already know what they want. Right. If I know I want that car and I come in and the car salesperson or the TV salesperson or the real estate agent is acting in a way that sets off my alarm bells, but I want it anyway, I won't care. Like, I'm just gonna buy. And so there's that. That happens as well.

Makes sense. This is great. And like you said, I think this is a great opportunity for us to transition to empathetic reversal as a potential tool that we could use in the sales process. So can you tell us a bit about what that means?

Yeah. So if we're talking about like negotiation and where this conversation kind of started, and the difference between sales and negotiation is there's almost always times when in a conversation between a salesperson and a prospect, they're going to have questions. Now, sometimes those questions are just light, surface questions and they're just curious. And there's sometimes where it's full blown, hard stop, here's an objection. You better handle this or else. And there's variations in between. Sometimes sales reps get defensive or eager when they hear any question. They think this is a hard objection and they've got to, like, battle it. And so that's another total sidebar to this. But sometimes People just have questions. There's also another thing that happens where sometimes people need to ask a question just to check it off of their mental list, typically either for their own sake or for somebody else's sake. And a perfect example of that would be I've dealt with people for a long time helping them buy. And there's usually after we get done with the phone call, there's somebody else they're going to have to go to that's going to ask them about what happened and they're going to have to explain it and that person's going to put pressure on them. For example, if, you know, let's say I bought something and then I'm talking to my parents and they're like, well, did you ask this? What about this? Did you get a warranty? Did you do this? Did you have this? Right? Because they have the experience and they're looking out for me and they're trying to protect me. And I've got to have those answers or I look bad, or I've got to, like, make up stuff, or I've just got to lie and pretend that I did ask the questions. Sometimes what happens is that people get trained to ask those questions. Check the box so they can tell that other person, the spouse, the parent, the adult children. And so you've got to understand the difference in that scale. And then it comes into empathetic reversing, which is when somebody asks a question, it's important to answer that question as best as you can. Also succinct, shorter the better. Because going back to your. The earlier part, when somebody who's trying to convince you to do something, usually when they answer, it's a long winded answer, right? It's a lot of, like, verbal stuff. They're throwing the whole kitchen sink at you, trying to convince you to overcome that problem. People who are professionals give short answers, right? They just come at you with the short ones. So empathetic reversing is where you answer it and then you reverse it. Normal reversing. And you probably know this is where you answer a question with a question, which is super annoying if you do it a lot, right?

Absolutely. This is great. And so I want to dive into one of those specific points that you made, because when people tend to get nervous, oftentimes they start to ramble. And like you just said, it's a bad sign. The person picks up on that and says, ooh, I don't like that it's a bad sign. And so what advice do you have for people who have that tendency when they're in a high stakes conversation.

I mean, it really comes down to some level of preparation, some level of experience in what you're going to be talking about or what you're dealing with, and then some level of confidence and ability in yourself to just stick to what you know. And this is what's interesting. And you know, you were on my podcast, I end my podcast the same way every time that everything in life is sales. And so we're talking about selling. But I've seen this in presentations to investors and board meetings and meetings with the government. Like, I've seen this in all different aspects where someone gets nervous, they're over talking, they're over explaining, sometimes missing the mark, like they've gone down the wrong rabbit hole. And it's really about keeping it short and understanding what you know, the value you can provide and trusting that you have the answers if you're in that situation. And if you don't feel like you have the answers, then spend more time finding the answers before you get into those situations. Practice. Right. Like what you see on the field in a football game represents what, 5%, 10% of that football professional's life because they're watching film, they're practicing their training, you know, they're doing mental exercises like, you know, you've got to prepare. Most salespeople just show up and practice on the field and get slaughtered.

Yep. No, I say the exact same thing. And I love the football analogy because when I think about professional athletes, I feel like they are the professionals that take their profession the most serious. Right. Because think about us as professionals, we're professionals in the same way, but we just show up for games. And oftentimes if we are doing the continuing education, for example, with lawyers, continuing legal education, usually it's showing up and hearing somebody talk, but we're not getting our hands dirty and actually practicing ourselves. It would be like the, like LeBron James and the Lakers having their practice sessions being somebody giving a lecture on how to properly play basketball. Right, right.

Yeah. Well, and that's where, you know, I don't know what your thoughts are, but it's interesting because you think of that, the practice of law, medical practice. Right. It's interesting that those are what's referred to in those professional fields that you have. And you know, I've heard it also where it's said that way because they're just constantly. You're just constantly practicing, like on the field.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. But again, when you think about it, As a. From a sports perspective, imagine a coach trying to justify that to the owner. So did you practice? I mean, they have a lot of games, man. Isn't that. Isn't that enough?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, we don't need the practice. You know, we'll just, you know, get out there. Right. Time is money.

Exactly. Yeah. No, I love that. And before we move on to the higher authority close, can you give an example of an empathetic reversal, maybe that you've used or used with a client so the listeners can get a really tangible example of what that would look like?

Yeah. And the key with the empathetic reversing is two things. One is asking a question after they've asked a question, but doing it in a respectful way, which I'll explain in a minute. And then the empathy side, the reason I call it empathetic reversing is two parts. One is you want to make sure to keep your tone the proper way, which is the empathy side should trigger that. And then the other part is the empathy, the empathetic side, your empathetic goal is to really get to know and understand that other person. That's what empathy is about, right? It's to getting to know them. So what terrible reversing is, let's say. Let's say you asked me, well, you know, if I sign up, is this something I can cancel? And I would say, well, why would you want to cancel? Right? Like, that's just terrible. That's confrontational. I hear people do that all the time. You might win that battle, but you're not going to win the war, like in that sales interaction. And that one's tough. What I've used and what I think is better instead is to answer, say, hey, that's a great question. If you sign up and there's any reason that you want to cancel, you can cancel within 72 hours by calling in, or you can send something in writing in 30 days. Cancel that way. But let me ask you real quick, why are you thinking about canceling this early in the process? Or something like, hey, why is it that you're thinking about canceling? Or what in the past has happened where you're thinking about canceling right now, Keeping in mind we haven't even consummated the deal yet. And so what I've done in that process is answered their question, given them information, also kept it short. It wasn't a long, rambling monologue. And then I said, let me ask you. And then I asked them about it. And then generally what happens in my experience is you'll get a response that's something like this. Well, I signed up for a program like this a year ago and then they didn't do what they said they were going to do. And I tried to call and cancel and I couldn't get a hold of anyone and they made me jump through hoops and it was painful and I lost some money and I just don't want to get burned again. Right. You got to keep in mind that when somebody asks a question, usually it's because something bad happened or they're afraid of something and you want to get to the root of that. Now if I ask my empathetic reversing question, let me ask you, like why, why is canceling important to you? Or why are you thinking about canceling? And they share that with me now I know something about them now I can address that in a follow up and you know, I understand, I've seen that before. You know, I'll make sure you have my number, customer services number, like all the different ways to do it and you can address that and move on instead of just throwing out an answer and hoping that's affected.

This is great. Yeah. And I think one of the coolest things about this is that oftentimes when we respond aggressively, we come off as a threat to the other side, which triggers this cascade of emotional ramifications that hurts us during these conversations. But what's interesting is that oftentimes we sound like a threat because we interpret what they've said to us as a threat. And so if you change that mindset to not be aggressive in return and just instead respond with curiosity through that empathetic response, then in turn they're not going to perceive your curiosity as a threat because again, we're already in that situation where given your position as somebody in sales, they already are. They're looking for reasons to put up their defenses and see you as that threat. But by changing your mindset the first time, it makes it easier to produce a non threatening response. Yeah.

And you know, and you're listening to them, you're just. It's a conversation between two humans. The empathy part is so critical because you want to make sure that they understand if it's true for you, that you understand their situation, you care about their situation, and that you're hopefully different than whatever's happened to them in the past. And you know, you're there with them instead of against them.

Absolutely. Well, great. So now we've understood, we've developed a deeper Understanding of the difference between sales and negotiation. And now we've come up with this really great approach to dealing with questions and potential objections. And now it is time to close the deal. And you talked about the higher authority close. So for the listeners that don't know what that is, can you help them understand a little bit about what that means and what it looks like?

And this is interesting. If I look back on my experience as a kid being trapped at a new car dealership for, like, multiple hours on a Sunday, it was always a Sunday afternoon. It was like, every two years. You know, it's classic in the car business. It's classic in a lot of sales organizations. And I think there's just like anything, there's a way to use it for good and then also for negative side. But the higher authority close is about, okay, there's somebody else who's the decision maker, and there's somebody else involved, right? Like, if it's negotiation, let's think of that, you know, because most people have this experience in buying cars or something like that, where it's like, okay, well, they want this much. You only want to pay that much. Okay, They've got to go talk to their manager to see what can be done. Right? And then there's this negotiating back and forth. As a salesperson, it's really important in some aspects of the conversation to have that higher authority who's the one setting the rules. Because you always. And I will say always. This is pretty much an always. You always want your prospect that you're dealing with to see you as somebody who's on the their side. It's not me versus you, right, Kwame? You're trying to buy something. I'm trying to sell you something. You have problem X, I have solution X. Like, this is a perfect fit. It's not me versus you, because, again, this goes into the. If you're. If you end up down a rabbit hole of negotiating with your prospects, I feel like you've done something incorrectly in the process somewhere. Because they feel like it's a negotiation. Again, you don't negotiate with your doctor unless you feel like it's you versus your doctor, right? You feel like they're telling you something you don't want to hear, and you don't trust them, then you will battle your doctor and you won't do it. In sales, it's the same thing. You want your prospects to feel like it's you and them versus their problem versus their situation versus their goals, versus the world. It's you and Them. And so when you are the decision maker, when somebody says, well, you know, I know you're. You want to charge 5,000 for this, but will you do it for 4,000? And you're like, can you do 4,500? Now it's me versus you. It's instantly me versus you, because it's me versus you. Now if I say, well, that's an interesting request, you know, let me check with my manager and let me see what I can do. Now it's me and you against the manager or against the world or whatever. And so it's always important to do that is to have somebody else who is the decision maker and. Or bring them into the conversation so that you're always the advocate for your prospect. And again, you could be selling TVs, you could help be helping someone buy a house. You always want to be the advocate. That's literally either arm and arm with your prospect arm over their shoulder. Sometimes you have to pick them up and carry them across the finish line because they just won't make the smart decisions without you. Just, you know, using a lot of persuasion and willpower depending on what you're selling. But it really should always feel like you and them.

This is great. I love that point. That's really helpful. And now let's say it's a situation where you go and talk to the higher authority and the higher authority says no. So essentially, there's no negotiation room. So how do you relay that message to the other side while still sounding like an advocate?

It's two things. One is always empathizing and helping they understand. Like, hey, the manager said that's not a possibility. You know, we can't do 4,000. It's going to be 5,000. And then what I've always found successful is then tying it back to the value and the reason why the prospect wants to buy. Whatever it is that you're selling, your product, your service, your idea, whatever that is, it's going back to that value. Because again, price doesn't matter. Value is what matters. It's about the value. And value only matters, in my opinion. And if it helps that person in some way, right, like whatever that is. And the only way to get that is by asking questions and understanding the prospect. A lot of times in sales, what people do is they just go through their process. They don't actually know why that person would want to buy your product or service. They just assume everyone does. They assume they know everyone's reason for wanting it, and then they just take the same approach. And when it comes to. Down to that point at the end, they can't say specifically like, hey, John, this is $5,000. But we both know this is the tool that you need to help you get out of debt so you and your family can buy a house next year. When I do that, we're done. Like, okay, sounds good. I appreciate it. Versus what happens a lot of times is it's $5,000. You know, do you want to do this now? It's like, but why? Like, why would I want. And then you're hoping the other person remembers or knows why they want to do it versus their brain keeping them safe, which is where we started this conversation.

Absolutely. And I think this is a great place to end the conversation, too, on a high note. This has been fantastic, Jason. But before you go, can you let the listeners know about your podcast and the upcoming book again and how they can connect with you?

Yeah, so my podcast is the Sales Experience podcast. You can find it, itunes, Stitcher, Spotify, all those places. And yeah, it's really about helping people improve their sales experience. Both sales reps, sales teams for themselves and for their customers, which I think is so important. All the stuff we've been talking about. The book again, is called Selling with Authentic Persuasion. And so that'll be coming out soon. And the best place there's two places to find me, one is just really basic central hub I put together is jason cutter.com so on. There is links for everything from the podcast to ebooks and other resources I have. And, you know, way to schedule time to talk to me. For salespeople and managers. You can also go to qatarconsultinggroup.com and I have lots of resources on there as well.

Fantastic, Jason. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. And listeners, you will see Jason again in the sparring session. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining, joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.