Before You Speak, They’ve Already Judged You — Here’s What to Do About It

For the person listening today, I really want to hammer this home. When you talk about presence, like, first of all, what does this mean? And second of all, what changes in their life if they're able to master this?

You know, presence is how people are experiencing us. So I'll clarify too. This is virtual and in person, you know, like a lot of things in person, there's much more power. There's all these different nuances of how we're experiencing each other. And experiencing one another means how we are interacting, sharing space with one another. And so presence does include things like communication and like a lot of other disciplines. You know, many people know sort of the arena of like executive presence, which is exactly that. I'm parallel to executive presence, but executive presence deals with communication and a lot of different facets. And the cross section that I work on, which is kind of the true starting line of the, of the broader beast that is our presence is our physical presence. So our appearance, how are we showcasing who we are, our attributes, through our style, through our physicality. So ultimately, our presence is the opportunity we take from, for people to experience our intentions and our appearance.

Incredible. I. I love the, the simple synthesis here, how people are experiencing us. Because when we think about negotiation and communication at large, a lot of times we are focusing exclusively on the semantics, what are you saying? And what is the impact of those words. But we fail to com. To really understand just how significant our non verbals are. And so that's not just what we are like our body language. A lot of times we just focus on the body language, but we don't talk about our style, the physicality, like you said, as well our background and listeners. If you have not checked out our YouTube page, this will be a great one to check out because Evan has an incredible presence. Everything is done with intention. And that's something that made you stand out when we. When we met in. In Nashville for the speakers conference too. Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills. Join me on Negotiate Anything, subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Evan, thanks for joining us today.

I am so happy and grateful to be here.

Yes, man, we're excited to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So you know a little bit about myself. I'm reporting to you from West Hollywood. I'm a SoCal native. You know, I grew up around Brilliance Kwame. So, you know, I'm the youngest of three. My sister's a professional ballerina and actress, my brother a professional musician and actor. Some of my grandparents and other parts of my family are industry leaders and, and public leaders. And so it's just all to say that I've always been a really inspired person and I've always had a front row seat to really interesting and fascinating people and, and arts and culture and different forms of ambition. So I mentioned these things because it started very early in my life. You know, again, I'm the youngest, so I was super young, right? Witnessing all these things and getting involved in dance and academics and theater and all these different things. And, you know, early in my life, too, it kind of funneled into a passion for marketing and brands as well. So, again, when I was like 10, 11 years old, I was fascinated by brands, personal brands, the Spice Girls. I loved all the individual ones, automotive brands. Was really, really fascinated by. And how people kind of define themselves by brands and built lifestyles around them and. And how brands differed from each other. Truly, like 10, 11 years old, I was reading Consumer Guide instead, while my friends are reading Harry Potter.

I.

Although I read some of those things too, but I was just like, had this really sort of prescriptive and deep interest in these things. And I mention it because it spelled the trajectory of my career. So I dedicated myself to marketing. So I teach brand strategy at USC University of Southern California here in la. And I'm an educator to ambitious people in general. So I run my practice, my speaking and coaching practice, where I focus on enabling and really empowering people to develop, develop a magnetic, irrefutable presence that allows them to work toward and achieve their personal, professional goals.

Oh, Evan, this is so good. And an irrefutable presence. This is great because people might be listening to this podcast because they're saying my presence has been refuted. Okay? So I need. I need a stronger presence. But let's talk about intentionality here, too, because that's really where it starts.

That is exactly where it starts. And I. And right when you said that one, you took the word out of my mouth. And that was actually the other part. You know, you. You asked and what kind of changes in your life? You know, we could probably do a laundry list of like. And you will get this from whatever. And it's all legitimate. Right. And that's. That's a lot of fun. But I think one of the things. What changes is your level of intentionality. The intentionality that you. Again, going into some of the delivery modes, which is how. How you dress and polish, grooming and things like that, your intentionality with your body. It's crazy how much we're actually just flailing through life when we. When we can actually be so much more intentional and elegant with. With. And persuasive with how we're, you know, moving our bodies and whatnot. So, yes, the intentionality part. And, um, you know, I think it comes in sort of two ways. One is discovering more about yourself. Things like aesthetic identity. We can go into that a bit more. It's not that complicated, but it's what it sounds like. Like, what is. What are you trying to show people? What are you trying to showcase? Non. Verbally and physically is. Is essentially your aesthetic identity. That's a level of intentionality. Like. Like I'm going to get intentional with defining who I am. Right. And then the other part is just truly, I guess, just the pure essence of the word kwame, which is like taking the moment to think ahead of an action. You're going to take. Again, that action with how you dress, how you're moving. Certainly when we kind of think about negotiations, settings, which we know are super diverse and sort of like undercover, but. But if we think about entering a scenario, how are you going to enter? How are you going to walk up to that table and seat yourself and start this engagement? Like, all of those things carry a degree of intentionality, you know, and that are fueled by presence.

I agree 100%. And I really want to hammer this home, too, because this, for a lot of people as it relates to negotiation and communication, might be novel in blending this having, like, a. A persuasive presence. One of the things that could really help people to hammer it home is scaring them. So let's have some fun, Evan. Let's scare some people. So let's say you're somebody who's having a tough conversation with somebody at work, and you Land every line you say, everything just perfectly delivered. What are some of the top things that in somebody's presence that could undermine everything that they say and make them less persuasive? Even though their words are perfect, let's say they're perfect. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

You know, I think in this scenario it's interesting because presence, it's like it, it is so broad, right? As long as we're humans and we're interacting with one another, it matters. No matter your goals, no matter the stakes, there's. It's exciting in that way. I say this because what's great about your physical presence and the level to which you get intentional refine it, etc. Etc. There's nearly just as much power in like a small incremental improvement as there is in like being a hot mess, so to speak. Someone just said that to me and going from that to like a showstopper, right? Like it's almost there, you almost gain the same amount of power. So I just want to kind of lay that foundation. It's really neat fine tuning as well as sort of going from, you know, a lower starting state to a great one. Now in this particular scenario, and why I say that too, is that presence can really just be additive or it can save you from sabotaging what is, like you said otherwise, a great performance. So here's how that person can go completely wrong. Now, on one end, all of us, to some extent, we are showing up with a reputation that precedes us. Sometimes you don't really know the person that much, or maybe there is a really big and bold reputation that you're coming with, like a good one, maybe you're a leader, you've accomplished a lot, etc. Etc. Presence works both to build credibility as well as defend it. So we can talk about that more so as to get a little bit more to the, the kind of bullseye of your question. One big way is that this person did not defend their reputation coming in, so they create dissonance with the other. You could say all the right things, but let's say they are a leader, you know, with a good reputation, but they're showing up maybe not very polished or, or you know, rushed, performing some kind of bonafide parts of body language that are defensive or a bit threatening. You know, there's, there's a lot of things we could mention here, but that creates a gap that throws the counterpart off immediately. And even if it's non conscious. Kwame, that's a, that's the. Maybe, maybe I'll say that's the word of the day in our. Is the non conscious. I think it's important for viewers to, or listeners to remember this, that not every. We don't deliberate on everything. We don't sit there and go, they messed that up. And that was weird. Whatever. Things happen very quickly and non consciously. And that gap where you're not kind of meeting your presence isn't meeting your reputation on paper or even in your spoken word causes a lot of disarray and distraction, you know, and lack of focus on you as well. So there are many things to say, but I'd say that's a, a hot one to mention that a lot of people, especially leaders who think they're doing great and whatnot can go wrong.

I, I love the concept of dissonance applied here because we always think about cognitive dissonance, right. The discrepancy between our beliefs and our actions. But here we have essentially communication dissonance where the words might have been pristine but our presence is dissonance, taking away from the, the words that we say. Right. And it could be as simple as just saying, hey, I care about you. But you deliver that in a very like monotone type of way. There's no warmth behind it. And it's almost worse than not saying it because it's, it makes you say like what. What does that mean? Right. Because it might just mean the person's nervous and they, the affect was not where it needed to be. It might mean that they really don't like you or care about you. What does it mean? I don't know. But now you've got the person thinking about that and they're not thinking about the purity of your message.

Right, right.

And so it's almost like we have. We're creating these muddy messages so the message becomes unclear and it makes it difficult for the person to absorb it in the way that it was meant to. Be absorbed. And now for people who are. Are now almost gaining consciousness to this fact and recognizing, hey, my presence. I love the idea of we can add. We can think about it offensively, but we can also think about it defensively. So we can add to our presence, but we can also make sure that we're not doing anything that takes away from our presence. For somebody who is now just starting this journey and becoming more aware, what's a good place for them to start?

Well, I think, you know, so what I work against are essentially three core modules, Whether it be with clients, audiences, you know, it's all kind of rooted back in these. And mind you, there are all kinds of great subtopics and scenarios within here, but one area that we start is really. I mentioned aesthetic identity. I often like to use Persona because we kind of build out Personas, but you start by seeing yourself from the outside in. So we are so internal inside, etc. Etc. And it's actually very liberating to take a step back and define yourself from the outside in and have fun doing it. Use others, use other characters and attributes from people. And, you know, there's all kinds of proven and interesting kind of facets of. Of alter egos, you know, and, I mean, think Beyonce and Sasha Fierce and. And Kobe and Mamba and all these different things. Like, you actually start by doing little bits of that for yourself so that you can actually be intentional and make decisions against two other modules, which is personal style and polish, which sounds like what it is. It's the choices we make with how we adorn ourselves. You know, we don't. We walk out of the house having to wear something, so there's a choice to be made there, you know what I mean? And polish, you can just think of as grooming. And I'll make a note, too, really quick, just for listeners. I. I want to make clear this isn't about being some fashionista and having the best hairstyle on the block, okay? Not at all. There's. Science normalizes this, which we can talk about, but I want to make that clear. This isn't just some rally cry to be fabulous. We love to be fabulous. Right? But. But it. But truly, these are choices we have to make. We have to put ourselves together right before we go out. So personal style and polish and then what I call physical finesse, which is body language. Very much so. And that's a deep and fascinating study in and of itself. Right. You know, there's enough books to make your head spin, good ones on body language. So yes, there are. There is that aspect, but I call it physical finesse because there's a lot of other creativity and elegance with which we can move our bodies. I mentioned walking in and sitting down. We can actually get smart with methods to do that. And believe it or not, Kwame, someone even non consciously can be impressed by how you sit your butt down in that chair when you talk to them, believe it or not. So I went across these modules, but you start with defining, really, who am I to the outside world? What is this ultimately billboard that I am in my body and my clothes and how I put myself together? What do I want to communicate to people? That's ultimately where we start.

This is great. And it reminds me of one of the guests we had on who was a body language expert, Joe Navarro. I asked him one time, he former FBI agent, I said, what is it that most everyday communicators don't understand? And he said, they don't realize that everything matters. Everything matters. And to your point, he would say, everything was choreographed. And yes, the little things that you do, the way that you pause, the way that you sip your coffee during the meeting, the way that you, you look pensive, whatever it is, people are paying attention to it, even if it might not be at the conscious level, it's having an impact subconsciously. And then when you start to recognize that first you might have a panic and say, oh my gosh, what have I been doing? And that's, that's fine, that's completely normal. That's good self awareness. But now it gives you control. And now can say, okay, now I can hone this with more intentionality. And so I. Let's make a, let's do a little bit of case study here because you've worked with some incredible people over your career, and I know we have style and we have substance when it comes to the business world. And when I, I want you to tell a story perhaps of somebody who changed their presence and it had a palpable impact on their career trajectory. Even though we might not have addressed anything substantively, stylistically and through their presence, it still had an immense impact on the trajectory of their career.

Yeah. First off, I love that you. Gosh, I have to listen to that Joe Navaro episode. You've had such awesome people because I've, I've, I've mentioned you before. I'm like, oh, man. There was, you know, this person and that person, and that's actually one of the books, Body Language, you know, around body language that I read front to back. So shout out to Joe Navarro. An honor to be here. You know, so yes, a case study. You know, there are obviously my wheels get to turning and I'm like, okay, I'm thinking of different people either that I've worked with directly sort of witnessed. And I can't help but think about someone that I, I finished an engagement with and you know, now is a good friend and whatnot. Fairly recently. And you know, to make a long story short, this is an individual and she was a new doctor. I say was because now she's not so new, but essentially was moving from residency into you know, a practice, ultimately a hospital and so on. And, and again, this has to do not with substance, but where there was, you know, that big growth, that really meaningful growth that changed the trajectory through presence alone. And Katie, let's call her ultimately Katie, was interesting too. Katie's LGBTQ plus. I say that just in part because it sort of influenced her attitude. Not that it was negative, but just about self expression and sort of what can often be. This goes for anyone by the way we experience it all the time. But that tension a little bit between like conventions and self expression, fitting in, you know, and standing out. And she kind of was, was having some of these things. Katie had beautiful pastel pink hair, not hot pink, but so non traditional hair. Seeing patients, you know, had some tattoos, things like that. And so in the background was sort of again this, this tussle between like to what extent do I. And I hate this word, I hate to even say it but like change myself because what my presence, that is, I'll be clear because there was an issue, quality. The issue was she was being treated poorly and just by based on what people could see. So namely I'll speak to patient scenarios, literally patients asking for a different doctor patients. Oh, second guessing her recommendations live. And it was really taking a toll on her, having her have something of an identity crisis in. In regard to. In I doing the right thing. She's at her residency stage, like are you gonna turn back now? My gosh. But it was, as you might imagine, challenging and more so just the pure experience of having these reactions a lot of times getting second opinion, all these different things that happened twice and it was getting tough. And so this was a case where, you know, I mentioned change yourself, never optimize. And there are, without going too much in a tangent, we worked with what I call neuropresence, but kind of the science backing of how people interpret your beauty to begin with psychologically. And then let's hack that a bit. So there were things where, you know, Katie didn't necessarily change her hair color, but she changed how she styled it and was get and was doing it nicely and well done. She was doing some other things with her kind of style and polish that helped to up credibility and someone's perception of your stature. You know, I bring it up again and I think I, I like bringing it up. Literally we went through in person, how, with her coat on, how she can sit, fold her coat under her and do these things that actually signal to people she knows what she's doing, this person is together. She was lacking some of that. People were not perceiving that correctly. And the long story short is that ultimately she saw no more cases of this kind of mistrust and this hesitation around patients. Ultimately this coincided with when she was interviewing and landing a full time role at a hospital up in the Pacific Northwest here in the US Went through that with flying colors. So that was a really exciting shift again because it was ultimately a case study in optimizing your presence. And in her case, what was authentic to her, but maybe not, not conventional. It was optimizing it, not changing it.

There's so much here I love focusing on optimization while still being authentic. That's so, so important because so many people wrestle with this, do I assimilate? Do I lose who I am? And ultimately you're the only person who could determine whether or not you're crossing that line. But you can still give yourself the right to optimize when appropriate within the bounds of your own unique authenticity. And the reality is we might have grown up and people say, don't judge a book by their cover. But the reality, humans do that. That's just how brains work. Bias is real. And once we incorporate that knowledge into our strategy as it relates to presence, which as you aptly described, is just how people are experiencing you, you can recognize that somebody's biases might change the way that they experience you. And now that you know that, you can make small tweaks while still being authentic to optimize your outcomes in those situations. And when you think about body language and you think about body language almost like a literal language, we have to become as fluent as possible within different contexts too. So when I'm in Latin America, I don't speak English and say, this is who I am. I try as much to use my rusty Spanish to, to get by. And when it comes to body language and presence and how we are presenting ourselves, we can recognize that there can be Authentic versions of ourselves in different contexts. And that's completely okay. And so I love this story because she able to retain her authenticity while still optimizing her presence and getting the outcomes that she wanted.

Man, oh man, I just love chatting with you because you're so damn intuitive and smart and me telling you you're smart, my God. But no, but really, Kwame, it's like you're taking the words out of my mouth. It's so true. I've used that. It's a. It's a pretty good one. Just that you wouldn't go to X country and speak this and be like, why don't you understand me? Very, very true. That's at the essence of the tension, as I've said, the tussle, the tension whatever, between conventions and like self expression or what we might consider authenticity. And it's about to some extent, meeting people where they are, right, Learning some of that language to at least break the ice and then get them amenable to your points of view or your unique way of expressing yourself. And that's where some of this kind of working against science comes into play, which I do a lot my work, I can't help it, being something of an academic and always rooting myself in like, empirical evidence. I've developed a system and a framework that me and my clients and audiences like to lean on that's rooted in science. And, and I bring this up, you know, we can talk about it in many different ways. But I bring it up now because a lot of its power is in understanding that. You mentioned biases, let's call it even subjectivity, or the idea of like, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, but there's a lot of just objective things that happen that we can hack to create and like open the doors or what I call create on ramps and to understanding our true essence. But the on ramp is needed if you're entering that space, if you're entering that country, like, you gotta give them a few words of their language to break that ice. And it's the same thing with presence. You know, I encourage people, we have to many times. We're all susceptible to it. And some of us, depending on our context more than others, can get resentful. You know, like, don't change who you are. And they're either gonna like me or hate me and take it or leave it and whatever. When you're cutting yourself short there, there absolutely is a middle ground where you don't have to sort of let anything go in the process of both kind of meeting people where they are, but also being authentic to yourself in how. Again, in how you're presenting yourself and. And sharing yourself physically.

I agree 100. And I. I think especially for people who have felt like the other, it feels like an even more substantial compromise. You know, so there is an internal battle where even though people can say yes objectively, scientifically, I can recognize that what you're saying works. But then how do I justify it for myself? And I think you've given them the tools to do that, which I. I really appreciate. And that actually is a great segue to the concepts of power and status as it relates to presence, because I think people are feeling it now more than ever. Just the. There's a lot happening in the world that's outside of our control. And I've. It's been interesting when I'm on the road doing keynotes and hearing my clients talk, I'm hearing more people asking, how do I negotiate without power? How do I influence without authority? And presence can have an impact on how people perceive you and as a result, how they interpret your level of power and status, both of which by themselves are extremely persuasive. So can you help us to understand the nexus between your presence and also power and status?

Yeah. Oh, man, I love the topic of status. Specifically. You've had some guests that. That are scholars in this space. You know, I'm thinking about Allison, Allison Forgale, who is great, you know, likable, badass, assertiveness and warmth, and these things that she systematized are so true and important and so on. I think there's this key aspect here, and ultimately. And then you also had. Forgive me, I'm just on top of my head, Shaheen. I think matter of, maybe even weeks ago or episodes ago, that is, and, you know, gave some honorary mentions to status and how that can bode well for you or be something to overcome, etc. So ultimately, what. I'm not going to say everything, but what precedes your competence, meaning your subject matter, expertise, your spoken word, all these different things, and even the experience of your status. So again, if you walk in and you have this title, you have this or you don't, right? What. Whatever it is, what precedes all of it? What do you think, Kwame? If I'm gonna. If I'm walking into the room with you and we're about to have a conversation with whatever stakes, what is first? So you see me, right? So I. Presence precedes competence. It precedes I mean your status, someone can read about it and hear it before they see you. But in that moment, the very first thing that's happening is like I am seeing you. And I mean moment we've heard time and time again, no matter how accurate you remember it, that that first impression or impression is made in seconds, a tenth of a second. And it's like almost unbelievable. Believe it because it's true. It is true. There are dozens, if not probably triple digit studies and all kinds of scenarios that are super meaty about how much we judge or how much your status or perceived power is interpreted immediately. And here's the key. That impression sticks. That's the, that's the main thing is that, you know, there's all kinds of controlled studies, again, all kinds, where it's like that initial impression ultimately sticks whether or not you performed great or performed poorly. So that's where a lot of power comes from. I mean, I could put a period there, right? Like power. The word came out of my mouth. I'm like, that's where that's the nexus is that just think about the power of those statistics. It's true, Kwame, it's literally true. And I think one of the things too is you kind of alluded to it before. But how understandably so it's like, well, how the hell am I supposed to hack milliseconds? Like, are you kidding me? How am I supposed to influence something that's like light speed and that is like automatic in the other human's mind? Well, you can because of a variety of things, but because it is the practice of presence and how you're sharing yourself again physically through your style and appearance, through your understanding of self, which comes out in those ways, your aesthetic identity, those things are actually hacking those milliseconds. And I mentioned the science a bit before too. I. I'll bring it up and I'll work to bring it up quickly for the moment. But ultimately, Kwame, this. I work a lot in the science of beauty and we call it neuro aesthetics. Basically sounds fancy. Well, any type of science or study that has neuro in it is going to be really cool and, and ultimately what it means just for listeners, a lot I'm way oversimplifying, but neuro in front of anything, including aesthetics, whatever, is basically studying reactions with a functional MRI stuck to the brain. So seeing the brain work as you're in these different things. So I've studied for almost a decade been a student of neuro aesthetics, which is about as long as it's been around great work at a University of Pennsylvania and many other arenas. But to make a long story short is again, I'm talking about these milliseconds, right? And beyond, by the way. But brains interpret beauty. Our brains interpret beauty, different kinds of beauty in different parts of our brain. And so, yes, the, our faces, as you can imagine, is a very special part, right, because we're humans and there's so much to do. I body language, sure, but also spatial awareness, how we move our bodies is another part of the brain. Clothing adornment, like jewelry and whatnot is perceived in another part of the brain that perceives art, like architecture and painting. So without going too deep into it, you can hack these things and you can actually make choices, almost proverbially move up and down. You don't really move things down, but you adjust levers against each of these ways that our brains are locking in in seconds when we see someone. And in that way, kind of bringing it back to your main point and what we've said before, you can quickly build credibility. People can be, quote, unquote, in awe of you. Non consciously. Very fast. People can be very fast. That idea of they just had something I couldn't put my finger on, that kind of vibe that can be caught very fast. It can also, again, we've talked about defending. So if you come in with lower power and maybe even someone, because humans are predictive beings, we're coming in like predicting they maybe have low power, they're going to be not super professional or whatever it may be. Creating surprise and delight by coming in strong and showing yourself is very powerful. Literally the word delight, Dopamine does surge when you do those things. Dopamine improves memory, you become memorable, all these fascinating things. But so, yeah, creating, defending power or status, you can see, boils down into a lot of different arenas there.

There's so much to explore here, Evan and I. And I think too, what I love about the way that you've talked about the studies, about first impressions is that you've made it empowering. Because a lot of times we say those studies and it just ends up with. And that's why humans are terrible, you know, good luck. So now we actually have something that we can meaningfully do in this situation. And really the. What I recognize is that when it comes to perceptions of power and status, really we are as humans, you know, we're just social primates. And a lot of times we're following these heuristics, these mental shortcuts, these scripts, essentially in these situations. So if I'm up against somebody who I perceive to be more powerful, and then that person perceives me as less powerful and lower status, then the script that we play is the person with less status defers to the person with more status. And what ends up happening is that if you feel disempowered and you feel lower than the other person, you're going to be more likely to concede more easily in that situation, because that's what you expect to do per the social dynamic. And the person who sees you and sees you as lower status, it emboldens them and says, listen, your role in this is to submit. And so I'm going to push harder because I know that I have the authority to, and I know that you will succumb. And the thing is, again, this is all perception. You might have people who are employees at the exact same level, following this script. You might have somebody who actually has more power but carries themselves with lower status for whatever reason. And then the dynamic is still the same, despite the actual power, because the perceived power is much more predictive. And there's studies that demonstrate when it comes to. I forget which book this was in, but women and people of color, when they are in negotiations, oftentimes people negotiate harder against them because they assume that there would be less resistance. And so there is so much. And it goes back to what you were talking about, where we talk about how we can use our presence as an offensive tool, but we also use it as a defensive tool because it'll protect us from people trying to steamroll us just because they think they can. So when it comes to perceptions of power and status, how do we convey that in a way that doesn't run us into the. The arrogance penalty that could come if you carry yourself too high and mighty in one of these situations.

Yeah, you know, that's a great point. And immediately, I think there are all kinds of all kinds. I mean, it really boils down to a few core ones, as we kind of even started around the broader topic of presence and how much your communication and whatnot can play into that perception of being arrogant or not or this and that. Again, going back to Allison, there's all kinds of levers to pull in terms of warmth and assertiveness and to sort of balance these things out. But to speak to your point about, or to bring it back home right now to physical presence and that incredible opportunity we have to sway others and. And effectively express ourselves and manage these power dynamics, there's kind of a few things That I think about. I think one aspect that I'll bring up is we've talked about offense, defense and the like and kind of this, this headspace, if you will. Maybe traditionally speaking of that being sort of defensive or trying to push like in, in the proverbial, like high stakes negotiation or, or maybe even if it's not high stakes, just that immediate, like I need to be strong here or not or whatever. What we can do or what a kind of framing I like to put here, and it's also a bit literal too, going off of science as well is that consider yourself a reward to others. And I say this literally, you are a reward. Your presence is a reward. Your beauty is a reward. Let me qualify something real quick. Beauty, let's not be fooled that it's not just merely beautiful. And like, that's like literally the top millimeter of a mile of what beauty is. An equation is beautiful equals MC squared is gorgeous. It's defining so much with like three letters, you know, and an exponent. Beauty comes in a lot of forms. So I just want to take this opportunity to say like in the brain, it's not just merely like, ooh, that's sexy or ooh, that's a pretty color or whatever. Beauty is interpreted across a really interesting spectrum. And in those different parts of the brain that I mentioned, they are different, but they're also the same. Why when they're lit up, they release what I say, what makes the world go round. It's not money, it's dopamine. They release dopamine. Literally. You are a reward. You are a feel good chemical. When you show up and you move smoothly and you are, and you are whatever, nicely tailored and you are exuding, you know, I could do the laundry list of things. That's what you're doing. You're lighting up those brains and releasing dopamine. Sometimes people are literally taken aback because you are just snatched. You are coming in like let's say it, right? And, and let's not be fooled. I work in that mode a lot with my client. Like we are here to show up and show out and have people going wow. Okay, but there's a lot of wow that happens in like non consciousness quick things as well. So I'm like going, oh yeah, yeah. I want to make sure I'm not going too off. So it's important to remember that you are reward. And in a negotiations scenario, it's ultimately like in many ways you know this million times better than I do. But I know I'm Literate to some extent that like, you know, it's an exchange of value or, or perhaps creating value together is like the best negotiation if you kind of come out having created value for both. Imagine if without saying a word and within the first few moments, you are the first one to provide value, to provide a reward. People, this is more psychology. Like, we're more apt to give you something back or react positively if we felt you've. Or we almost feel obligated. Right. If you, like, have given me something. Well, if you show up and give someone your best and show your best, you've already handed them a buck in this exchange of quote, unquote money. Okay? So you, you create a great starting position for yourself. You're communicating to them, I care enough to show my best self. I care, you know, about you to share my best self. And you're actually scientifically providing a bit of a reward in terms of the, the beauty centers that you're igniting. So I kind of described a lot there, but I think to your point, like, creating that starting position can, can sort of let the guards down, disarm people a bit and actually make them more amenable to your points and all these different things because of that idea that you've actually provided them a little jolt, even if it was quick and non conscious of reward, which is a great way to start, you know, a dynamic and is, you know, agnostic to any aspect of your background. I'm not discounting, trust you me, there's a mountain that different segments of our society face of unique challenges based on our backgrounds and our identities. Like that is. There's a lot to cover there. But we do have a common opportunity to create that starting position for ourselves as a reward, which provides a cascade of benefits.

This is, there's so much to explore. But you, man, you blew my mind with, with one of the things that you said there where you said, essentially, you become the gift you are dopamine. I remember hearing this, this neuroscientist scientist, I don't know who it was. If a listener can figure that out, quote them properly. But they said essentially, dopamine is the ultimate global currency. You know, even more so than money, because that's what we're going for. We use the money to get the dopamine, right? And if you could just get that dopamine high, just sitting in a quiet room, more people would be down for meditation. They'd be addicted to it faster, right? And I, I really love this perspective because what we're doing is you've, through science, demonstrated that you yourself become value personified. Because in a negotiation, we want to work collaboratively to maximize value for both sides, especially us, of course. That's what we want. But if you can give value just by who you are, in a true sense, because I think there's some times where people can be a little bit delusional and narcissistic, where they bring absolutely no value. But they say, you should give me what I want because I am me. That's not what we're saying. We're saying you need to, with intentionality, build up an authentic presence that conveys value to the other side. And they will catch that in the first few milliseconds of interacting with you. So that's the way you carry yourself, the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you dress, everything done with intentionality. People will pick up on that, and I think that's incredibly valuable to understand. All right, Evan, as you can tell, I mean, this is what we always do whenever we chat. We go on for a long time. So I appreciate you coming, coming on the pod and sharing your wisdom with the world. But before you go, what is one last parting piece of advice that you'd give to folks and then how can they get in touch with you?

You know, I would say I'll start with. Or I'll say two things. One, what is essentially my slogan? The world is your Runway. Step into your power. And I'd say the. The. The qualifying thing is that you're worth it. It. It's worth it. You going out showing and sharing your best self is worth it for you. And others do appreciate it. We do at a scientific level, if not at the most conscious level. So I think that's. That's one bit of advice is that. Or just kind of words of wisdom. There is that it's worth it to show up and share your best appearance and share your best, and others do appreciate it, and it can really change your life and the trajectory of your goals. With that being said, yeah, you know, I am so. Evangeliner.com My site has EV A N G W-E I N E R.com has all the details. You'll notice that there's, you know, a variety of media on there. I have just launched some additional kind of offerings in addition to my one on one coaching. There are some quizzes and other sort of takeaways that you can get on the site. So. And some events coming up to workshop and so on. So head there. But also, Evan, G. Weiner in all of your favorite socials, LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube. So, yeah, reach out with any questions too. I love. I love to. To interact. Perhaps the professor in me. I love to engage one on one too, so reach out.

Evan. This has been a masterclass in presence, my brother. I really appreciate you coming on today. If you've made it to the end of this episode, you're now part of our negotiation community. Every conversation, every deal, every tough negotiations shapes the world that we live in. And the more we grow together, the stronger our community becomes. If this episode gave you something valuable, don't let it stop with you. Share it with someone who needs it. A friend, a co worker, or anyone looking to take more control of their conversations, their careers, and their lives. Every time we bring somebody new into this space, we make negotiation a tool for real change. And if someone shared this with you, take a second to acknowledge that they see you as part of this journey and as someone who belongs in this community. Let them know you appreciate it. This is how we build something meaningful. We do it by looking out for each other. So if you haven't already, join us, subscribe, stay connected, and help us to grow this movement. Because when we become better negotiators, we create better outcomes for ourselves and for others. Hit, subscribe and share this with someone. And let's keep building together. I'll catch you in the next one.