Best of Kwame Christian: Top Negotiation Insights from Reverse Interviews - Highlight Reel

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All right. I have a very special guest today, Kwame Christian. Welcome to the show, Lindsay.

Thanks for having me.

So I, I love this quote and I feel like I've heard this, it's probably in your podcast or maybe you've just, you've shared it with me before. But the best things in life often are on the other side of difficult conversations. And I think that is such an excellent quote and something to be reminded of. What do you think people, you know, maybe people's perceptions or myths about difficult conversations that prevent people from doing so?

I think one thing that holds people back is the fear that it will ruin the relationship. And that's something that holds people back. They're afraid of the response of the other party. And so that either completely holds them back from having the conversation, they avoid it completely, or when they're in the conversation, they don't say what needs to be said. So they're not wholeheartedly engaged. They're not vulnerable and transparent. So even though communication is happening, the true messages are not being sent. And one of the things that I recognize is that conflict is an opportunity. When you go back to the motto of the American Negotiation Institute where we believe the best things in life are on the other side of a difficult conversations. And when you think about that, all right, I'm going to lean into the conversation. I'm going to have an opportunity based thinking framework for this. So whenever you find yourself afraid of these conversations, just force yourself to finish this sentence. This conversation is an opportunity to blank. There's always an answer there. It's an opportunity to learn, to grow, to repair a broken relationship, to, to get clarity, to solve a problem or all of these things, you know, but we're missing out on those opportunities if we don't move toward these conversations. So when you think about the psychology of humans, it's really simple. When we're approaching these new situations, we're asking ourselves a simple question. It's a binary choice. Should I approach or should I avoid? And if I focus on the risks, if I focus on the negative things that may occur, then I say I need to avoid this conversation. But if I start to think about this as an opportunity, then I can see the positive things that are on the other side of the conversation and it'll make it more likely for me to approach the conversation. And now when we're in the conversation, here's the thing that, that is a really tough Truth to absorb. But when you actually pause and think about it, it makes a lot of sense. So when we're in these conversations, it gives you the opportunity to repair and strengthen worthy relationships. And it also gives you the opportunity to remove malignant relationships with minimal damage. Because in negotiation, it's the art of deal discovery, not the art of deal making. The worst thing that can happen sometimes is forcing a deal that never should have been made. Same thing with our relationships. Sometimes we have to have these conversations because there's something fundamentally wrong or broken in the relationship. Now I'm going to go in and see whether or not this is something that should be fixed, can or should be fixed, or whether this is something where I say, you know what? Red flags everywhere. The best thing for me to do is respectfully remove this person from my life and move on to something better.

Yeah. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, how do you. I mean, I just think about. Just every day. I mean, everything's a negotiation, right?

Absolutely.

So how. I mean, I guess I just. It's like, how do you know which things to stand on? How. What. What things are important enough to sort of, you know, bring to the table versus, I mean, is. I don't know. Or maybe you're just constantly negotiating, Kwame. Like, it's. It's an everyday thing as part of our lives. But, like, I don't know if I have a question baked in here or not, but it's just kind of like, how do you know when it's the right time to lean into something that's difficult?

Yeah. I think one of the tough things about this. This new approach is that negotiation is not just an activity. It has to become an identity. So in these conversations, I'm approaching it as a negotiator. There's a goal that I'm trying to get to in every single conversation, even. Even in the. Like, the little, small, everyday conversations. My goal is to connect and hopefully uplift your experience of the day. And I will navigate the conversation with that intent in mind. And that's really important to keep in mind. Now, when it comes to identifying which conversations are worthy, there is no clear and easy metric, like a. Like a checkbox type of thing. And even if there was a metric or checkbox, most people wouldn't, like, whip out a piece of paper and go through it anyway. So I think what we have to do is just trust our judgment in this. And here's what I mean. If we get that inkling that, should I have this conversation? The answer probably is, yes. There's, there's something inside of you that is saying that a conversation might happen. And if that's the case, then you can't fully understand whether or not a conversation should or should not happen only by yourself. Because if you're feeling that, it's potentially likely that the other person is feeling that too. So you should have an investigatory conversation to see whether or not a deeper conversation is even required. Because at the end of the day, negotiation is an information game. I want to gather high level information so I can then make a good decision and I want to have mutual conversation. So you also have the best information you need in order to make an informed decision as well. And so if there's an inkling that a conversation needs to happen, I'm going to have the conversation just to see whether or not it's required. And if it's not required, if it turns out that the problem that I thought might have existed does not exist, the other person still feels respected by the fact that you care enough about them in the situation to even investigate and look into it. And when we think about this new identity as a negotiator, don't just think about it as a tool that we use externally with other people. I want you to think about this in terms of negotiating with ourselves for emotion management and better judgment and decision making too. This is the process of metacognition, thinking about thinking. I'm going to have this conversation with myself to figure out what I really want and why I want it, and then what I need to do in.

Order to get it.

And sometimes that's a better relationship, sometimes that's smoothing out problems, or maybe it's taking advantage of opportunities. But I want to get that internal clarity first before I have that external conversation with the other person.

So many things came up while you were saying that. I was trying to be a really good listener in that moment because I'm like, oh, I think that you hit on a really good point about if you have the inkling to follow up on it and to take action on it. And I think very much as I think about listeners, I think about my own personal journey with codependency, recovery. Many, many years of my life, old patterns have been really around not trusting myself. And you know, it's like, oh, I have this feeling, oh, that's nothing, you know, or you know, and so I will, you know, for many, many years have discarded it as, you know, unimportant, or I didn't have enough self worth to be Able to, you know, feel like I could even say anything right. And so kind of appreciate that sort of a little nudge to everyone to, you know, just listen to those inner nudges and those inklings to take action. Because if you're feeling that way, you know, trust yourself. So I really appreciate that. That comment. And I didn't know if you wanted, because you're kind of talking a little bit about the compassionate curiosity framework, kind of dancing on it a little bit. I didn't know if you wanted to talk about that. I think that would be a really. I love this framework. I'd love for you to tell me a little bit more about it and if you could break it down a little bit. I just felt like it was a very simple approach for, like, breaking it down. So a difficult conversation didn't feel like such an overwhelming moment, kind of getting yourself in check, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm glad that you recognize the simplicity because it took so long to get it that simple. And I'll start off with a Bruce Lee quote. He says, I don't fear the man who knows 1000 kicks. I fear the man who has practiced one kick 1000 times. And compassionate curiosity is your compassionate and nonviolent kick that I'll teach you in this. In this conversation. Because the thing is, a lot of times there are infinite amounts of conversational and rhetorical techniques that you can use, but it's unlikely that people are going.

To just hone all of those skills.

And keep just a backpack of skills.

And know when and how to use them.

And then second of all, I recognize that in these conversations, we're very emotional. Emotional, and we are going to be flooded with cortisol, the stress hormone, and our limbic system is going to be firing. And so when it matters the most, we're typically not at our cognitive best. And so what I recognized as I was teaching people around the world how to negotiate is that I'll give them negotiation strategies, but it was hard for them to access those strategies under duress. So that's why I wanted to make sure that people have something simple that they can use as essentially their foundation for the entire conversation that they can flow through. So it's a simple three step framework. And the first step is acknowledge and validate emotions. The second step is get curious with compassion. And then the third step is use joint problem solving. And so we're going to assume that there is an emotional element in the conversation. And so we're going to lower the emotional temperature by labeling the Emotions, acknowledging it and validating it. Now, validation doesn't mean that we agree 100% or we endorse what they're saying, but it's recognizing that, hey, I can understand how your beliefs and your perceptions are leading to your feelings. And that makes sense. I got that. And you're going to go through that process until they calm down a little bit.

You see the emotional temperature drop, then.

You get curious with compassion, asking open ended questions with a compassionate tone. And then as you gather more information and the emotion is down, then you can transition into that win win negotiation, trying to solve problems with the other side. And then the same framework can be utilized internally as a tool of introspection, emotion management and decision making. So we're going to label our own emotions. So what is it that, that we're feeling? Most likely it's multiple things. And then we're going to get curious what's self directed compassion, asking ourselves open ended questions with a compassionate tone to figure out why it is that we feel the way that we do. And then when we're using joint problem solving, what we're doing is we're reconciling the differences between our hearts and our minds. So what would satisfy me emotionally in this moment and then what should I actually do in this situation to make the situation better? And you can do that before the conversation. If you feel that anxiety stre or fear going into the conversation and even during the conversation, if you start to get good at practicing this in the moment, you can take a deep breath, maybe take some notes and gather yourself in the moment and go through it really quickly and then come back to the conversation just a little bit more refreshed and with a little bit more focus too.

Yeah, I appreciate the breakdown. Yeah, I really liked sort of the internal like sort of preparation too. Like, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was around this, this particular framework or if it was like another part of your book. But I really like sort of, you know, jotting down, you know, what it is you're looking for and how are you feeling heart and mind about this. And, and I think that oftentimes, you know, the emotional does take over and you don't take time to have that reflective moment with yourself. And so I really kind of appreciated that I had a recent situation happen to me where I had to have a difficult conversation. And it was interesting because I didn't take action right away. And so you talk about that too in the book, like, hey, don't wait too long, get on that but for me, however, for me, I needed to take a minute to really, because I was very emotional about it. But it took me a moment with myself to kind of work through, okay, what's going on here? Why do I feel this way? What do I think the intent was of the other person? Can we give them the benefit of the doubt? So there was, there was a lot of preparation on my part and self talk to work myself up to say, okay, I'm going to lean in and I'm going to have this difficult conversation. And I was really, it was like kind of validating when I read that in your book, that I was like, oh, I did that now I took a week to get there, but I still move forward. And I was really proud of how I handled that and how I kind of represented myself in that moment. So, yeah, taking that time for yourself and making sure where you're at is really important and thinking about where they're at too. You know, I love the empathy and sort of the, sort of assuming the best for humanity. Right. We're all, we're all human beings here. We always just have a different, a different perspective that we're bringing to the table.

Absolutely. And Lindsay, first of all, kudos for having the conversation. And secondly, there are two things that I want to pull out from this. First, we have to recognize that emotions often precede understanding. So a lot of times we'll be confronted with a situation or a potential conversation and we'll feel a certain way about that, but we won't even understand why. And so our limbic system, our amygdala often can make that read faster. And then it's our job to go through that introspective process to figure out what that emotional signal is. And so that, that clarity is really important. We can't assume that we understand ourselves, you know, and, and that can be really humbling. And then the second thing is, once you had the conversation, what did you feel? You felt proud, you felt pride. And what we have to do is sometimes what is required is we need to build up a treasure trove of evidence of our ability to perform in these situations. So let's go back to one of.

The things that you said.

Sometimes in the past it felt hard to trust yourself. And I think sometimes you can reinterpret confidence as trusting your skills and trusting.

Your ability to perform.

Under certain circumstances, trusting yourself is just like trusting somebody else. We need multiple positive interactions in order to build trust with other people. And we need people, multiple positive interactions to build trust with ourselves utilizing new skills. So when you actually take the time to start having these conversations, despite the fact that you're scared, what you're doing is you're proving to yourself I can trust myself under these circumstances. And I feel proud after the fact. And so you're starting to build this habit of engagement. It's a complete reframe of everything else. Because if you have that habit of disengagement, what we have is the the cue, and then we have the reward. Like there's an anatomy of the of the habit creation. So I have a stimulus, and then I have a response, and then I have a reward. And so for disengagement, what it is, is I have a stimulus which is a scary conversation. My response is avoidance. And by not doing the scary thing, I feel safe. And so that solidifies the habit. But now we're changing that habit by saying, okay, I have the stimulus, we have the scary conversation, and now I'm actually going to have the conversation. Then I feel proud. The pride is the reward. And so now we're just reprogramming our mind over time to engage really well in these conversations. Hey listeners, I have a quick question. How long does it take you to get through an episode of Negotiate Anything? If you're like me, it could be a day or two simply because life and other work responsibilities get in the way. If you can relate, not to worry. I have the perfect solution. Join Negotiate Anything Premium to level up your negotiation skills in half the time with Ad Free Listening, episode summaries and mini episodes that are exclusive to Premium, you can get your favorite expert insights in 10 minutes or less. Not only will this save you time, but it makes preparing for your difficult conversations just that much easier. Just download a quick mini episode or a key takeaway guide and you're on your way to negotiating more of the best things in life. Here's what you get when you join Premium. First Ad Free Listening. No more interruptions. Just pure, focused learning. Episode summaries and quick worksheets. Quickly absorb the key insights and expert strategies with ease. Mini episodes and highlight reels. Get concise, powerful content on your favorite topics, which are perfect for those on the go moments. Question and answer forums where you can ask me anything and get my expert advice on any of the difficult conversations you're having, whether it's at work or at home. And you'll get all of this for less than $10 per month. So what are you waiting for? Take my word for it. As a CEO, father, husband, entrepreneur, and more, this is the best way to get your professional development journey in less time. Start your risk free seven day trial today. I'll catch you later.

So how did you go from being the person who was getting sworn in and also having a little bit of an existential career crisis to. To all the different ways that you serve and support people today?

Yeah, so when I was in law.

School, I discovered negotiation. It just fit in my schedule. So I took the class and I was really excited about it because it was the first time I saw psychology utilized in this type of way. And so I became obsessed with it. And so they had negotiation competitions and my friend and I competed in it. And we won the competition at Ohio State and that gave us the opportunity to represent the school at regionals in Ottawa, Ontario. And we won that competition as well and then made it to the semifinals of the American Bar association competition in New Orleans. And so I was hooked after that. I said, no matter what I do, this needs to be a main part of it. Because I saw the psychology and for me, as a recovering people pleaser, recognizing that the ability to handle yourself in a difficult conversation is a skill, not a talent, that was life changing for me. So for me, I wanted to find a way to share that message. Because my motto is that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And so for me, if I can help people to make these difficult conversations a little bit easier, we're putting them in a position for them to live their best life.

I love that.

Well, and I think that a lot of people who are listening will probably have a deep feeling of connection with being recovering people pleasers and trying to understand how to hold their ground and be powerful in difficult and tricky conversation. Well, let's dive into the mechanics of a difficult conversation because I think part of that fear of making a transition into something new comes from how on earth am I going to prove my value and prove my worth to a new employer that's potentially in a brand new industry? And so when you're working with somebody and teaching them about the fundamentals of negotiation and how to get what you're worth, and they're starting from a position of saying, I don't even know where to begin. I don't even know what my assets are, what I bring to the table, what's the way that you ease somebody into starting to strategize for a conversation like that?

Well, first we need to get clarity on the goal. I don't know, I feel like clarity is an important word for you. So let's go ahead with that. So we need to get clear on what the goal is. A strategy that I like to use is the five why technique. And so you just ask yourself why five times. Usually it goes from something that's kind of surface level and materialistic to something that's really deep and personal. Getting close to that, that kind of deep connection will help you to be a lot more assertive when it comes to the actual conversation. And then during the conversation we're asking for what we want very clearly. But there's a framework that we use that can make any difficult conversation easier. This is a framework I use at work, at home, negotiating with opposing counsel, negotiating with my 4 year old. It's all the same. All the same. I think the clarity, the simplicity is what people really like. And it's called the Compassionate Curiosity Framework. I mentioned that in my TED talk and my book, both with the top title of Finding Confidence in Conflict. And so it's three steps. Number one, acknowledge and validate emotions. Step two, get curious with compassion. And step three, joint problem solving. And so that's really it because really with these difficult conversations, the biggest barrier you're going to have is emotion. How can you handle the emotions of the other side? And then it goes down to curiosity with a tone that is not going to be perceived as threatening. We're going to ask open ended questions to learn more about the situation and then we're going to work together to find a solution in the third step, which is joint problem solving.

Well, the emotional management piece is a huge factor and it's arguably the linchpin. That either means you're going to be able to do this successfully or it's going to go totally off the rails. But I almost feel like before we get into the Compassionate Curiosity Framework that we've got to start with the emotional management of oneself and the emotional almost agility, the emotional fitness training you need to go through to be in a position to be able to successfully execute on the framework.

Absolutely. And Liza, this is my favorite part of the framework because it was designed to not only help you to win the external negotiations, but also to win the internal negotiations. That's where people often don't start. They just, they choose not to do it. They don't recognize that that's a conversation they need to have with themselves. And so you can use it as an introspective process that helps to diminish the emot barriers that you're feeling. So again, same three steps, but directed internally. Acknowledge and validate your own emotions. Get curious with compassion. Joint problem solving. So with the first step, we're just recognizing, okay, I feel afraid, I feel afraid. Well, what is causing this fear? All right, so I'm going to dig deeply into it. Well, I'm afraid that if I ask, they might take this poorly. Well, then what might happen? Well, I'm afraid that if they take it it poorly, then I might lose my position or I might lose favor with my boss, something like that. So we're figuring those things out. And so then we can start to test those realities. Let's figure out what the worst possible thing is that could happen and do a thought experiment to see how bad it really is. Most of the time it's not as bad as we think it is. And then we move on to the next step, joint problem solving. This is where we're reconciling the differences between our heart and mind. What do I need emotionally to feel secure right now? What do I need substantively in order to accomplish my goals? And how can I blend these two things together so I have that clarity when I go into the actual conversation? And the thing is, a lot of times people don't do this internal work beforehand. So people say things to them and they don't know what to do or say because they haven't thought it through. And then it comes in, it turns into a really awkward conversation, your confidence diminishes and the conversation goes poorly.

I love that.

And one of the things that I think about is when I see that nervousness and fear come up when somebody's considering a career change and starting to apply for new jobs in a new sector. One of the biggest things that will often come up when they engage in that kind of a curious process is that they'll recognize, I'm afraid somebody's going to think that I'm an imposter because I haven't done this work before. And if you get curious about that belief and start peeling away the layers, you will either find option number one, this person is incredibly talented and capable and actually has a lot of transferable capabilities and experiences that they just hadn't been consciously thinking about and consciously valuing. So actually they're going to be just fine. But we've helped them to surface some of the great argument points and talking points for why they're going to be a high value hire. Or option number two comes up when we dig into the imposter syndrome of actually, you've got a skill gap there and there's, there's a Capability that this organization is going to be needing from you, that they may not necessarily be willing to train you from 0 to 100 on. So it may also reveal some opportunities to do a lot of the work that here at Career Clarity we talk about as part of the phase two of our process of test driving your potential future direction, which could be taking a class, doing a freelance project. You know, Kwame, like you were talking about going and doing trainings for free just to get the experience and to generate the interest to then be able to bridge whatever skill or capability gap there is to then again be ready to walk into one of those negotiation conversations and be confident and sure grounded to your core that you can do the work and that you're worth what you're asking for.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And again, that's why the name of the book is Finding Confidence in Conflict, because a lot of times we're giving recipes to people who are afraid to get in the kitchen. If you don't do the internal work, it doesn't matter if you know how to have the conversation, because you're just not going to do it really well. And the imposter syndrome is real. That is a real thing. And I really like the fact that you added the substantive component to it, because a lot of times people inappropriately just say, oh, it's all in your head. All in your head. Well, I mean, sometimes you just might not have the skill. You might actually be an imposter. Most of the time you're not. Most of the time it's just your brain playing games with you, and you actually have what it takes to do what you need to do. But then sometimes it's okay to recognize I have a gap. And so I'll give an example. I remember I was talking to a friend who was teaching a sports psychology class, and he said, I don't know why they gave me this class because I know nothing about psychology. He teaches sports history. And so they're just like, oh, you.

Could teach this too.

And so he asked me about personality psychology, and I was really surprised. I didn't know much about was the recognition of a bizarre kind of gap in my understanding of psychology. I said, that's very strange. I have a degree. I read books all the time. And yeah, just I'm not confident in my skills when it comes to personality because I just, for some reason, I haven't gone over that. And so this is what I did. Lisa, you'll love this. So this conversation happened in early February. And so then I was in talks with a company to do a negotiation training. And they're like, okay, what type of topic would you like us to cover? I said, I'd like to teach personality based persuasion. And so she said, oh, that is fantastic.

We'll do this.

And so it was scheduled for June. I'm like, well, there you go, Kwame. You got to figure this out. And so I started eating all of these books on personality based psychology, and now I have a deal with LinkedIn to do a course on leading and managing different personalities. That's a core competency now. But it was because I recognized that gap and I created a sense of urgency that forced me to get a deep level of understanding in the topic so then I could perform. But again, it was actually a real gap. I was legitimately an imposter there. Okay, let's figure that out. Now I can solve it and now.

We can move forward. Hey, listeners. As a lawyer, CEO, entrepreneur, husband and father, I know the pressures of trying to fit everything into a limited amount of time. And over the years, I've come up.

With a variety of hacks for continuing.

My personal and professional development journey while still handling business at work and at home. And now I'm ready to share some of those with you if you're looking to do the same. Join Negotiate Anything Premium today. It's designed for busy listeners just like yourself. It's everything that you love about our traditional feed just packaged to save you time and make it easier for you to apply these expert insights in your difficult conversations. Not only will this save you time, but it will also make preparing for your difficult conversations that much easier. Just download a quick mini episode or takeaway guide and you're on your way to negotiating more of the best things in life. So what are you waiting for? Get started with your free trial today.

How did you come to reframe these the idea of conflict as an opportunity?

Yeah, so when you think about it, there's this joke in psychology that anybody who is in psychology studying psychology, they're really studying themselves.

Right.

And so for me, I was a people pleaser. It was really hard for me to stand up for myself, have these conversations. And so this was a lot of me working on myself and then subsequently recognizing that other people have the same challenge. And so that's how it got to this point, really. I think about the people struggling to engage just like any other phobia. What can we use? Let's use the fundamental tenets of cognitive behavioral therapy. Let's see what we can do to work through this and it fits really nicely.

Yeah, well.

And you talk about being a pleaser, and I think there are a lot of people out there who would probably say that's a personality trait that they have. And with that, there is this fear of conflict. The idea that I can't say something because then they will feel like I don't like them, or it may engender or endanger. Not engender. Endanger the relationship that we have. So if I'm a pleaser, which actually I kind of am, you know, what do I do to. To really change that mindset? I mean, is it. Is it really just as simple as shifting that mindset to saying that this is an opportunity as opposed to being something I should be fearful for? Or is there other tricks that we can do?

Yeah, there are other tricks, because I think we should. We should layer these things. All of these things kind of fall on top of each other. And the thing is, when somebody's afraid, you can't just say, hey, stop being afraid.

Oh, that works all the time.

It's like, oh, I never thought of that.

Right.

Your response?

I'm sorry, man.

I've just told you to not be afraid. All of these.

And so for me, what I do is I say, listen, it's okay to be afraid. Just be afraid of the right thing. And so I moved from the fear of failure to the fear of regret. Will I look back on this interaction and regret the way that I had it or did not have it? And I recognized when I evaluated my performance in difficult conversations, if I actually had the conversation, regardless of how it turned out, I felt really good about myself. I looked at myself and I'm like, that's a guy I can respect. That's what I want to look at. I want to look back on my behaviors and say, that's a guy I can respect. But then on the other hand, if I avoid the conversation and with this mythical goal of. Of preserving the relationships through avoidance, I look back and I'm like, I don't. I don't like that guy. I don't like that guy. And now sometimes in the moment, the issue is that we don't have that perspective. We're just living here, and we get this fear. Fear focuses, right? It focuses you, and it focuses you oftentimes on the wrong thing. We need to get some perspective. And the way that I do it is by having kind of a deathbed perspective, which is a little bit morbid, but it definitely pulls you out of the moment. And so I say, looking back on this, when my life is done and I think back to this very moment, how will I feel about what I did or didn't do? How will I feel about my decision to not engage in this conflict? Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is deeper than just what is at issue right now. This is about self, self respect. And so once I started to think about these interactions in that way, it became a lot easier to make the right decision.

So now I want to layer in sort of the context in which these conversations or interactions occur. And I actually just want to put a pin in something where, and I think this will come up in our conversation, but I want to make sure that it's in your brain and mine so you can be subconsciously thinking about it. But I can imagine there are contexts in which it appears calm at surface level. Like we're, we're right now just talking to each other, and yet I know underneath it is emotion. And, and so, like, if I'm just sort of tactically going into the conversation, I could say, oh, well, I've reduced the temperature. We're not yelling at each other. I don't see any of the physiological signs of emotion, and yet I know they're present. And so one of the things I want you to be thinking about as I ask the next questions is, is it ever wise for me to try and elicit those, to raise the temperature only to then lower it again so that we get it out? Or, or is it better to just start and say, oh, no, no, we're calm now, let's move on in the conversation and we'll just not even invite those emotions into the conversation. And maybe I'll actually, now that I can see you smiling, let me just ask you that irrespective of context, because it'll come up again. But what, what's your reaction to that?

Yeah, So a couple of things. Let's, let's talk about the amygdala. So this is the part of the brain where all emotions come from. Positive, negative emotions originate there. The part of the brain we want to activate is the frontal lobe. So we have logical reasoning, emotion management, executive function. That's the higher level thinking that we want to activate. But there's an antagonistic relationship between these two brain structures. So the more emotional you are, the less clearly you're thinking and vice versa. So when that amygdala is firing, we have to recognize that they cannot process the information that we want to share at a high level. So the reason why I say it's Important to recognize this is because when you think about a toddler, the reason why they're so emotional is because their frontal lobe hasn't developed, so they cannot control that amygdala. But as we get older, of course we can control it a little bit better. And then as we become professionals, we can veil our emotions in professionalism. But that inner toddler is still there.

So I bring.

I bring that person to work every day, bring my toddler to work day every day.

And so when you look at it.

You realize, oh, there could be somebody.

Who seems really calm on the surface, but their toddler is having a tantrum. They're just hiding it. So you have to look at the context clues. Has their body language shifted? Is there a shift in their tonality? Is there a. A barrier that seems to be invisible that we can't break through, but there's no logical explanation for it? So when I start to see those clues, I'm going to hypothesize that there is an emotional barrier. So I'll be very humble with the assertion, but I'll just say, hey, I might be off on this, but I'm sensing something. Is there. Is there something else that's bothering you or something like that? Because I wouldn't necessarily say I'm intentionally trying to raise the temperature. I would say that I'm trying to take the lid off so we can stop pretending. But you have to create an environment of psychological safety where the person feels comfortable expressing that part of themselves too. So there's a lot of work that goes into it that's extremely helpful.

And I'm taking notes furiously in my brain about ways that, wow, I wish I'd said that differently in that conversation. So thank you for some guidance. So how much does the context, the organizational context of. Of these interactions matter? So you just gave a great sort of generic example of how as we age and mature and wind up in a job, we might have developed some norms of behavior that cause us to, you know, bury our emotions in a work context, whereas in other contexts, it's fully acceptable to sort of let your inner toddler out. And I'm thinking specifically about in the public sector, broadly, we. We sometimes have the norm in our world of a kind of dispassionate neutrality and objectivity. That, that is, is the veil over which a lot of interactions occur. And that's specifically true for a lot of the. The kind of. The analysts that come out of programs like ours. Put your partisanship aside. Come into this conversation as just a neutral Objective implementer. But that doesn't mean you're always interacting with people that feel the same way. So just since you're trained in both worlds, so to speak, what, what are your thoughts on how critical those sort of organizational norms in that context is?

They are pivotal. They are so critical. So let's, let's zoom out and then zoom back in.

Okay.

So in order to be an effective negotiator or conversationalist in these situations, you have to consider three things, three dimensions. So mindset, are you confident enough to have the conversation?

Do you believe you have what it.

Takes to have these conversations? Then we have skill set. Do you actually have the tools that are required to succeed in these conversations? But then also culture. Is the culture one of which, one that actually encourages constructive conversation? Does it stifle constructive conversation? Does it encourage respectful dissension where people can speak up those type of things. Things. So you can have a really great mindset. You can have an incredible skill set, but a great mindset and a great skill set in a culture that inhibits effective communication will still struggle. And so that cultural element, the context that we find ourselves in during these conversations are going to be really important. So it's not to say that we cannot break through. If the culture does not really encourage these kinds of conversations, it will just be more difficult. So we have to figure out what those cultural and contextual nuances are and figure out how we can navigate through those in order to still be effective in the conversation.

So let's get. This is great. Let's go down this road of where, you know, we train a lot of students to be dispassionate. And this goes back to the whole framework, but also it's then reinforced by the culture and norms that facts and analysis should drive decision making.

Making.

If I just present some person that I'm trying to convince that I'm right, I'm just going to show them the data, so to speak. And, and in some ways, we, we even discourage our students from bringing their, Their passions. Sometimes we, we say you need to lock those away. So that's the training. That's the norm. But then that just takes step one out of the equation. What guidance would you give to us and to people in those contexts about. No, how to. How to bring forward those emotions or at least acknowledge them, given your own personal inclination to say they're irrelevant?

Yeah, I think what we have to recognize is there is a big difference between being right and being persuasive. And so if you're somebody who has done all the research, you've gathered all the evidence, you have the facts and the data and everything to bolster your argument. We can think about times where we've done all that homework and we have brought that to the conversation and it has gotten us absolutely nothing in the conversation. Yes, it's so frustrating. Right. And so once we're recognizing, once we're able to recognize that there's a difference between being right and being persuasive, then we realize that a lot of times the gap between where we are and where we want to be comes down to that skill of persuasion. And if we go all the way back to ancient Greece and we think about Aristotle, who is really the, the godfather of persuasion, he thought about it through these, the persuasive triad, the three things that could lead to persuasion. We have egos, ethos, logos, logos, and pathos. So we have ethics, character, we have logic, and then we have passion. And so we have to be able to recognize what it is that will move the other person. Because if we're talking to somebody else who is well trained, they understand the data and things like that, then we can maybe rely a little bit more on the logos, the evidence, the data, those type of things. But even if somebody is very focused on the logic, they are usually using the logic and the evidence to substantiate their biased conclusions. So when we think about it psychologically, we have to recognize that. Let's go back to the amygdala versus the frontal lobe. The amygdala moves very quickly. This is the most primitive part of our brain. And so your emotions will have the first shot of interpretation. And a lot of times that means that, that we will come to our conclusions instantly, subconsciously, and then that will guide the data and logic that we pay attention to and respect, fueling confirmation bias. And so what we have to do still, even if we have somebody who is very logical, very data driven and everything, we still need to figure out what it is that drives them, how do they feel about that? Because that will change their entire orientation about their perspective on the data and the logic and the evidence. So we still need to have a little bit of the pathos, which is the, the passion, the emotion. We still need to have the, the ethos, which is the character, like, who are you in this conversation? What makes you a trustworthy communicator in this too? And so a lot of times what you'll find is that somebody is really, really good at logical thinking. The, and the data and everything like that. But those two other elements of persuasion are often overlooked. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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I'll catch you later.