Bridging Divides: Negotiation Lessons from City Leadership with Mayor Tony Roswarski & Mayor Erin Easter

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world, where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you love to listen to. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation. Tony, thanks for joining us today.

Hey Kwame, how are you today? Thanks for having me.

I am great, my friend. It is a pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, thank you again. It's thrilled to be with you today to have this discussion and work on getting some information out there. But yeah, I'm the mayor here in the city of Lafayette. I'm actually in my sixth term as mayor, so just getting ready to just starting my 22nd year as the mayor of the city of Lafayette and prior to that I was a retired police captain for 21 years. So I've been coming to the same building to work for 42 years now and also served on the Lafayette City Council for four years also. So work here. Like I said as the mayor of Lafayette, we're a advanced manufacturing type community. We have companies like Subaru, Caterpillar, Toyota, ge, Aviation, Evonik, Wabash, lots of companies that people probably would recognize their name as global competitors and players in the global market. So we're an advanced manufacturing community here of about 75, 76,000 people and work closely with West Lafayette, the home of Purdue University that I know. We're going to talk to Mayor Easter in a little bit here also. So love my job. I was born and raised here and we have four kids. They all live here and we have nine grandchildren now. So I started here when I was 22 years old and I'll be 65 this year. So yeah, I've kind of dedicated my whole adult life to the city of Lafayette.

That's incredible. What a testament to service. You've contributed so much to the city with service and you have also contributed to the population as well. This is an incredible testament to how much you love your community. So congratulations for everything that you've accomplished.

Well, thank you. I appreciate those kind words. It does mean a lot to me. I think others would tell you that we, we are a close knit community here that does work together very well across boundaries and across political lines and different things like that. And that we try to work together. We're not perfect, but we try to work together to do what's right for our community, what's right for our citizen, and what's really right for Greater Lafayette, for the entire community. Lafayette, West Lafayette, and Tippecanoe County.

Amazing. Yeah. And I think this is a great place for us to start, too, because listeners in this section of the episode, this is going to be a bit of a reverse interview. Tony's going to be asking me questions, and I'm really glad that you set the stage in this way because more and more I'm recognizing that when it comes to politics, especially like political lines federally, it's becomes incredibly polarized. But when you come to the actual communities, that's where we can really come together, collaborate and move forward and overcome some of those hurdles. And I feel like when it comes to our approach at the American Negotiation Institute and how we're seeing the future, we think that unresolved conflict and our inability to resolve conflict is the greatest threat to America. We truly believe that. And our communities, our cities, are going to be the front lines for really promoting that spirit of collaboration. And so I just want to again, give you a little bit of praise there because it's clearly that's part of what it is that makes you so great as a mayor. And what we're trying to do here with this podcast as well, well, it.

Sounds like we're both very well aligned for the goals that we're trying to achieve that bring people together, lift people up, and help move communities forward and create that feeling of hope and optimism for all people to be able to enjoy that quality of life we want people to be able to enjoy.

Perfect.

Well, Kwame, I'd like to touch on a few topics today and ask you a question I think I'd like to start off with. You know, in my position as mayor, we have to work with people of different backgrounds, different experiences, you know, different realities in their lives, but to try to bring those people together. And so I know that you work in the area of negotiating difficult topics, but, you know, whether it's trying to get that job, you want or that next race or bringing people together on, on difficult topics. What do you see the primary techniques that you like to use that help maybe people find that common ground?

Yeah, great question. And I think for us, a lot of times when it comes to these tough conversations, we start the conversation off at the wrong spot. So we often start things off at the point of contention. So this is where I don't like you. This is where you don't like me. Let's start right there. So we go with some, with some negative momentum taking us in the wrong direction. So what I like to do at the beginning of these tough conversations, especially when you're talking to somebody where it might seem as though we are on opposing sides, is I want to have this same team mentality. So let's, let's, let's talk about it from this perspective. We're both brothers in the Big Ten. You know, we're in Ohio, you're in Indiana, right.

When you're international champion now, too. So. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

And so for us, here's a great example, right? So we could say, okay, we have Ohio State and Purdue, and when we're up against each other, we're, we're teams against each other, we're opponents. But then we could say, hey, no, we are part of the Big Ten. We're part of the same conference, we're moving in the same direction. And I think one thing that we need to do at the beginning of these conversations is make sure that we're framing this the right way. So if it's a salary negotiation, I'm not just asking for money for myself. I'm saying I think there's more that I could bring to this organization. The organizational goals are this, this, and this. And I believe I can add value in this way. And in return for that additional value, I'd like some value in return. This is a win, win. And when you think about it, or cross community lines, we're all part of the same community. We all have the same goals. And once we can start off there, you reduce the animosity, you reduce a lot of the defensiveness, and we can have a higher level conversation. A lot of the times these conversations fail not because we're not using the right strategies or tactics per se, but it's that we don't set the conditions for persuasion. We don't create the conditions for connection. And because we don't start off in the right place, it's almost impossible for us to end up in the right place.

Great.

Thank you. Well, to build on that just a little bit. When specific, when you're dealing with individuals that may have significantly different life experiences or circumstances or across societal or even political lines where people come from even different parts of the country, or a different country where experiences are a lot different, sometimes there's even a level of mistrust. Right. You know, what do you have some advice or tips on, you know, how do you, I know, as you said, look for that common ground, but how do you kind of analyze or work to maybe break down some of those barriers that allows a more in depth conversation to take place?

Yeah, this is, this is a tough one. And I think a lot of times our assumptions lead us astray and so we need to switch from assumptions to hypotheses. So here's what I mean. So if I assume something about somebody, I believe this to be true and I act as if it is. But if I assume, if I switch it to a hypothesis, I think it might be true. But I'm humble enough to recognize that it might not be true. So I'm going to go through this conversation and allow them to educate me, tell them about themselves, Tell me about themselves and not me assume. And when I think about it, and I go back to my, my old psychology days, there are two effects that are coming to mind. We have the halo effect and then the opposite, which is the horn effect. We always think about the halo effect, but not the horn effect. So we, if we recognize that there are some positive attributes about somebody, we will then sometimes inappropriately expand that positivity to other things. Right. So if I find out somebody's a great parent, a great mother or a great father, I might then assume that they'll be a great leader because they've done well at something else. That may or may not be true, but that's what the halo effect allows us to do. And then the other side is the horn effect. If I look at somebody negatively or think about a negative attribute of them, I might inappropriately extrapolate negative things about that person as well. So when you bring it back to these conversations, especially when you're talking about division as it relates to politics or background or whatever it happens to be, we will have these assumptions. If we see a little bit of ourselves in that person and we see some positive attributes, we will extend positivity. If we only know something negative, we will extend negativity. So in these conversations, what I like to do is I say we have to pass the vibe check again. We start in the wrong place. I'M going to make sure that I take enough time to discover something about this person that I admire. What is it? There has to be something. What is it that I admire? What are the commonalities between us? And I'm going to highlight this because when it comes to the science of likability, there's something really simple that we often overlook. We like people who like us. And so if I can interact with somebody long enough to find something that I like and then I call that out, then it makes it more likely for them to reciprocate that likability. And now we're building positive momentum. And you're seeing we're not even talking about the nitty gritty tactics and strategies within conversations. This is just about human to human connection. And if you can get that part right, then the rest can flow really easily.

Well, thank you. We hear a lot about active listening and really listening to what people are, are saying. And, you know, finding that balance between listening and talking and, and being, you know, having empathy for, for people in their position. You know, sometimes that can be a difficult balance. You know, what's your thought on, on how to, you know, let people know that you have that empathy and you want to engage in the conversation but not overstep to make sure that you are actively listening to that person?

Yeah, this is tough, and it's made tougher when you disagree with the person or you don't see commonalities with the person too. And I think it's important to recognize that the skill of listening will feel different at different times. So if I'm talking to somebody that I'm familiar with, that I like and I agree with, it's really easy for me to listen. I love listening. This is great, great. But if there's any bit of friction I'm not truly listening, there's going to be a barrier that's put in place. Listening becomes more effortful, and then how we listen is different. I'm not listening to understand, I'm listening to respond and counter and attack. And when you think about trust, at the end of the day, trust is just a positive bias. Right. I just like you more. And so I'm going to assume a lot of positive things about you, our relationship will flow a lot better. And one of the best ways to build trust is by truly listening. And it's not just the, the biological phenomenon of listening. Right. We need to actually prove to the other side that we're hearing them as well. So we're going to listen, we're going to repeat it back. And then we're going to make sure that we don't advance at critical issues until the person says, yeah, you. You understand it, because that's a critical check. Because they're not just saying to me so I can confirm that I got it right. They're also confirming to them, yeah, Kwame was listening to me. He. He actually understands. And so for me, I try to follow the 7030 rule where I am listening 70% of the time and only speaking 30% of the time. And this is important because it allows the person to feel as though they're being heard. And here's the trick, too. I'm never really going to get that percentage. It's an aspirational goal, and it's just a reminder to make sure that I'm listening. Because if I'm trying to follow the 70, 30 rule, usually it's closer to 60, 40, or maybe, you know, 55, 45, whatever. But it anchors me on focusing on listening more than speaking. And what's really funny is that a lot of times when I. When I do these trainings, people say, okay, well, I'll listen. I'll be empathetic. But what if they don't listen to me? What I've recognized is that listening is often reciprocal in nature. Once I listen to the other person, then they're more willing to listen to me as well. So I just think we have to remember that listening takes effort, and it will be harder in conversations where there's a little bit of friction. But that feeling of effort is not a sign that we're on the wrong track. It's a sign that you're putting forth the effort necessary to listen and respect the other side.

Well, we both know that we live in a digital world. We experienced that when we were trying to get all this set up today. Correct? Right. So we live in a. In a digital world. And in a digital world, with everybody having so much access to information, there can be a lot of disinformation out there. Right. And people have some preconceived ideas on both sides of a discussion because of misinformation and then stereotyping because of that information. I mean, I face that even in my job. If I did everything that some folks think I've done, I might be the richest guy in the country. Right? I mean, but how do you work as you're starting a difficult conversation or trying to bring people together when there can be a lot of misinformation, even about a project you're working on before you even get started, people put out thoughts about it that are incorrect. I mean, what techniques do you, you know, think about when you're trying to get that conversation started on the right foot and get through that maybe misinformation or stereotyping that's occurred?

It's. This is really tough because one of the things that makes America great is the same thing that makes these conversations really tough. It's freedom of speech. I can say whatever I want whether or not it's true. Right. And so when you think about where we are right now in society, this is called the information age, but nobody calls it the age of wisdom. We recognize those things are very, very different. Now, the thing is, regardless of the veracity of what the claim is, there is very little connection between how true something is and the level of confidence somebody has in whether or not it's true. So there could be something that is not true at all, but they are incredibly confident, know without a shadow of a doubt that this is true. And so what I like to do is, instead of trying to go toe to toe with somebody with facts, I try to be a little bit more curious because I want to help them to stumble upon their own ignorance in a compassionate type of way. So I'm going to ask them, okay, what is it that you understand about this situation? And have them articulate that and then pay them the respect of listening so they know I'm not just listening to counter. I'm truly listening to understand. So they can see, yeah, Kwame gets what it is that I'm saying and why I'm saying it. Then I'll ask them this really simple question. How do you know that's true? Where did you get this information? And I'm not going to ask it in an attacking type of way. I want them to realize that the, the information that they're currently holding on to is not as sure as they thought. I don't need them to completely come to the conclusion, oh, yeah, I'm completely wrong. Going from complete certainty to completely wrong, that. That's almost impossible to do. It's a massive jump. But if I can just inject a little bit of humility and a little bit of uncertainty, then that gives them what is necessary to actually listen to me. Because they say, you know what? There might be something that I'm missing. I'm wondering what he has to offer. What does he have to say? What does he know? And now we have an exchange of information. And I think it takes a lot of patience, too, Tony, because when we're having these conversations, and again, patience is a bit of a luxury sometimes, but we have to recognize that in that first conversation, we might just inject that humility where they're saying, oh, you know what? I might not know what I thought I know. And it might be the second conversation or the third conversation where they say, okay, you know what? I used to believe this and now I believe that. But I think it starts off still with giving the person the respect of listening. Because a lot of times when these, when people have these beliefs that they, that are unsubstantiated, they're dismissed so quickly that it actually has the opposite effect. They become more entrenched in their position. And now it's not about what the truth is. It's about me versus you. And so I'm not going to move my position simply because I don't want to give you the win. Right. And that becomes a really, really dangerous situation. So again, sometimes we, we, we try to set people up just so we can dunk on them. But this might be a surprise, but people don't like getting dunked on. And so it's, it's a tough situation, but just remembering the fact that there's a big difference between being right and being persuasive. And there is a method of communication that can get us where we want to go, that can give us the confidence to use the proper techniques and actually accomplish the goal. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed. Thanks for joining us.

Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Yes, it is a pleasure to have you, my friend. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. I am the 10th mayor of the city of West Lafayette. I'm just starting my second year in office. Though I've worked for the city for a number of years previous to that. And my entire career, honestly, has been built around what it means to be a community where people want to live. And what do we create a community to look like, to feel like, to operate, to be an attractive place for people to move themselves and their families. A little bit about West Lafayette. We are the home of Purdue University. So in addition to our 45 plus thousand residents, we have this fall 55,000 students as well. So it's a bustling community. We're one of the most densely populated communities in the state and they're a very young community given our collegiate population. So it is a very dynamic, very interesting place to be right now. And every day is different, depending on what, what, what game Purdue is involved in that day to bring up a sore spot.

Definitely. Oh, this is great. And we're so excited to. And listeners, this is the part of the interview where I am handing the metaphorical microphone over to Aaron and Aaron's going to ask me some questions and then we're just going to chit chat and then I'll ask Aaron some questions at the end and then we'll roll out. So Aaron, you are the leader now.

All right. So we have been extraordinarily fortunate in a multitude of ways with our relationship with Purdue University. One of those is that we have a really attractive and desirable school to attend, which is great. And we are supportive of the university's efforts with so many of the things that we have happening and we're fortunate to have happening. But with that, we have a sizable international student population. And we have several current existing businesses that are international population based, but one that is recently announced that they'll be moving to our community and growing within our community. Community. It's a South Korean company and we want to make sure that everyone feels like they're welcome here. But it is easy to understand that Seoul, South Korea and West Lafayette, Indiana are not the same place. So how do we bridge that gap in terms of community outside of just creating amenities that people want, how do we create and foster a dialogue that makes our new citizens feel welcome and makes our current citizens open to being welcoming?

Oh, this is such a great question. And I think one of the things we have to first appreciate is the complexity of this. Because we have business interests, we have community interests, we want to make people feel welcome. And all of these things coming together, it's difficult and I don't think there's a perfect way to do it. But I do think that there are some principles we should keep in mind as we are going about doing it. And again, one of the things that has come up so many times in our time together you and me and Mayor Tony as well, is just remembering the human element. At the end of the day, we're all people. And I had an FBI special agent, his name was Jack Schaefer, on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. And I love the metaphor that he used. He said, if you think about human psychology as a cake, you start to understand the difference between the fundamental psychology and the cultural differences. So the brain, the human brain, everybody more or less has the exact same operating system that we're using. That's, that's the cake. But the icing, that's the cultural nuance, right? Where are you from? How do you do things? And so we need to make sure that we are not overcomplicating things because we have to remember at the end of the day, we're still people with the same psychological needs and drives. But sometimes we can overcomplicate things with the cultural aspect. And what we need to do first and foremost is create opportunities for connection and communication. That's number one. Because when you think about a lot of the, A lot of well intentioned diversity programs often miss this one thing because we talk about the mistakes that people can make. Like talking about bias is very important. But if we overemphasize bias and not talk about how to actually connect with people who are different, then people will say, oh my subconscious bias could have a negative impact on people. I could be unintentionally offending people. You know what I'm going to do? I'm not going to make a mistake, I'm not going to interact with people. And then we are almost inadvertently dissuading people from doing exactly what they need to overcome those biases. So the number one thing we need to do is create opportunities for connection and collaboration. What are we here to do as a community? Because even though you might come from a different place, ultimately once you're here, we're still, we're playing for the same team. What are our common goals and how can we integrate in this type of way? And if we just are intentional about creating these opportunities for connection and integration and communication, the more we're able to do that, the more people will organically connect and feel more included.

Great. You raised something. That was an interesting point. And I think about this a lot, not only in my own career, but for other people who are looking to have difficult conversations and how they do that. I can remember early in my career I had to have a very difficult conversation. I, as it goes with anyone, at least once in their life, didn't handle it very well. And it can really be a. It can be a deterrent to having hard conversations when you're worried about not having it the right way. So, you know, let's say you do have a hard conversation and it doesn't go well, or you feel that you've misstepped. How do you repair that? Re. Establish that trust in a way that you can move on. And this is. This is actually will be great for anybody who's looking in to go to any level of leadership. This was a valuable answer no matter what. Yes.

Yes. Well, maybe we could approach this in a bit of a comical way. Let's go back to the cake analogy that I use now. Let's say I'm bringing this cake, and then I trip and I spill all of this cake on you, right? And then. And then I run away, and then a couple of days later, I just come back and act like everything's normal. You're going to say, well, what about the cake? You're not going to. You're not going to address this. But that's kind of weird that you didn't address this. And one of the things that great negotiators do is so simple but so easy to overlook because it's scary to do is state the obvious. State the obvious. I messed up. I messed up, and this is how I messed up. I did this, and I should have done that, and I'm sorry, and that's it. But our ego can hold us back. And a lot of times we judge ourselves so harshly, and then we assume that other people are going to judge us that harshly. And so we say, listen, I've beaten myself up about this for the last few days. I cannot take any more abuse. I'm just going to pretend that this didn't happen. And then we essentially, unintentionally gaslight the people who are closest to us by not admitting our faults because it makes it really difficult for other people to trust you again. If they feel like, oh, I just got insulted by this person, they could tell that my feelings were hurt, and they didn't acknowledge it at all. I have no reason to believe that this will not continue to occur. Right. So the mechanics of the conversation are really simple. The challenge is emotional. It's internal. We're too afraid to just put ourselves out there and potentially get that backlash and ridicule. But the reality is that most likely, I don't know your situation. Most likely, you are a human who is also talking to a human. And that human has probably Also made mistakes. And if they can see that you had the courage to own it, then it will help them to overcome it and give you another chance.

Another thing that's been on my mind is the negotiation, which it truly is a negotiation of trying to create and solve problems within a community from a policy perspective and other perspectives and really hearing what the problem is. Is the problem the policy or is the problem the issue as you're talking to citizens? And let's use housing as an example, because it's a relevant conversation, I think anywhere at the moment, but particularly where we are, that any housing related matter. There's an assumption that it's only to serve our students. And that's a. There is a. Some part of that that's true. We do serve our students through housing related policy, but we have a lot of other people to take care of within our community, especially as we look at growing populations. So how do you. Especially in a media environment that's not as easy to communicate as it once was. What are some great tips that myself or any local leader can use in communicating factually with the people that you serve and making sure that they actually can hear you and understand what you're saying? I'd like to have a conversation with all 45,000 people. That probably won't happen. So what are some other tools and tactics that we can use to make sure. But we're communicating honestly with integrity with our citizens and we can do so in a way that will reach a lot of them in a short amount of time.

First of all, I want to say I admire the bravery of politicians because the media environment right now is bananas. It is wild. And so a lot of times it seems like misinformation is the intent. Please, please stop. Please stop.

Right.

And so in these situations, I think the. It's one of those tough things because I studied policy and I recognize that transparency is really fundamental and important in government because it helps us to. To fight against corruption and misbehavior. And at the same time, negotiating in public is extremely dangerous and difficult too. And so we have these two competing interests because think about the level of trust and vulnerability you want to have with somebody in order to have a really important conversation. But at the same time, they might not be willing to share as forthrightly because if it's in public now, that stuff is out there. I might be willing to have a trusting, vulnerable conversation with you as an individual, but not the entire world. So how do we deal with that? And so I think we have to Understand what is for public consumption and what is for private consumption, and recognize, like you said, you can't have an individual intimate conversation with all 45,000 citizens, but you can pay attention to the people who have an incredible amount of sway and trust with a certain group of citizens. Right. So what you can do is you could have a private, vulnerable conversation with the leader of a group. Right. You said we're going to have an influx of people from South Korea. There might be somebody who is leading an organization that has a lot of influence there. You establish a really strong, trusting relationship with that individual where you can have vulnerable conversations and they can bring the challenges from their people to you, and you can speak with them intimately, and then you have a message for public consumption, but then you can have those private conversations, and then they can distribute the information to their folks. And so it's a little bit of a strategy like coalition building and negotiation. We recognize that, all right, maybe independently, I might not have. Have as much leverage, but if I bring people together, I have more. And so for you, if you were to engage with and leaders of different coalitions within the community, you can get those leaders on board, and then those leaders can carry the message to their people. Because we have to recognize, especially with a lot of misinformation out there, there might be such a level of skepticism between you and the people that you need some kind of trust bridge between you and the people, and that that relationship with the leader of that community might be the way to go. So for you, having such a massive and monumental institution like Purdue University here, it creates a lot of opportunity, but it also creates challenges. And when you see maybe culture clashes or clashes of interest between the university or the residents of the university, the students and the citizens of West Lafayette, how do you go about trying to navigate those difficult conversations and bridging the gap between the parties?

Sure. So as a. As an example, I have the perfect example right now, and it's housing. Our university has been growing leaps and bounds, and that causes a lot of tension within our community. Now, I understand that it creates tension, and there are real problems that we need to jointly work together to solve. On the other side of things, I'm not averse to more people being educated. And so I think there's a benefit certainly for our community and for a general population as we have more students who are really, really well skilled in the sciences and ready to take on some. Some pretty major challenges for the future of all of our communities. But as we look at the housing issue, we have to stay coordinated on housing in its entirety, making sure that we're building enough housing and not too much housing, that we're building the right kind of housing, and that we're working together on that. So whether it's just that one issue, we could have several meetings on annually, and in fact, we do. But I think one of the most helpful things is that there are a few members of the board of trustees that I have had a relationship with since I moved back to town and started working. I chose to come back in this area, and that has been very important because they know that if I'm going to call them, it's going to be meaningful. And I need either their support or their advice or their attention, because we have an issue that needs to be solved, and we jointly have a responsibility to solve this issue. Like I said, housing is the perfect example. But I'm sure that there are several other things. For any campus community relationship, somebody could throw out an issue, and we've probably dealt with that. So recognizing that, to your point earlier, there are absolutely some things that can, should, and must be public. But as you're having some of those more difficult conversations, there is a bit of privacy that helps. Being honest and being vulnerable about that conversation and understanding where both parties might land on an issue. And some of those issues are. Are really difficult. Some of those issues have to do with the safety and security of our community and the safety and security of our students as well. Both institutions have public safety arms, obviously. So making sure that we are collaborating appropriately. And so whether it's police and fire, whether it's the building administration, the research division, their foundation, we work very closely with the university at every level. And I maintain a regular meeting with President Chang.

Incredible. And again, just comes right back to the relationships, right? Because we have these relationships, we can have these tough conversations, and we can work collaboratively to work through those. And as we wrap up, because I want to respect your time here, I want to focus in on something that you said which I think was powerful. You said it in passing, but it was powerful. You. You didn't say I had to come back. You didn't say I was forced to come back. You said I chose to come back. And earlier in the interview, you also said you want to create a community in West Lafayette where people want to live. And so when you're thinking about how you create this community and make it more enticing for other people and make it more inclusive, what are some of the key things that you focus on in order to make that happen.

Sure. When I left my previous employer to come work for the city, I was sitting at a diversity roundtable meeting. It's a group that, that meets monthly. And it was one of my staff responsibilities, but really became a personal responsibility because I enjoyed being there and I enjoyed the conversation we were having. And I will absolutely never forget one of the members of that audience saying, I want you to remember when you leave here that not everyone feels safe in every space. And I want you to think about that as you design new spaces and what they look like and how not just people like you feel safe interacting in those spaces. And that was a. I don't want to say it was hard for me to hear, but I wasn't expecting to hear it. And so I was incredibly grateful that somebody said it right, that they had the courage to say it in that meeting. That as people who are responsible for the design of a city, that we need to think about how it works for everyone within the city. And I have taken that, in addition to all of the quality of life work that I'd done previously, to think about every decision that we make. How are our parks designed? And do they create an environment with everyone in mind? Can somebody with ADA restrictions get around the park and enjoy it the same way as an able bodied person? Do we create spaces that feel safe for women and children who might feel vulnerable in open spaces? Do we create spaces that feel warm and welcoming to everyone, not just some of the people who live in that space? And so when I moved back to the community, I had been working in politics the only two times I've really worked in politics. And I chose to come here because there were, there was a low barrier to entry for solving problems. So it was easy to get a hold of people like Mayor Rozwirski and Mayor Dennis, my predecessor, and others within the community that if you really wanted to see something change and you wanted to have your voice heard and create cool, interesting things for the young people that were living here that didn't have a great outlet at the time that you could be taken seriously and you could find a job working in that field that would move whatever initiative that you were passionate about forward, that still exists, which I'm really proud of, that that exists in our communities today. And that people can make remarkable change because we're still accessible, we're still small enough that truly one citizen's effort makes a really big difference.

That's powerful. That's powerful. And I think that also speaks to the leadership in your community as well, that you're willing to have these conversations even though they're uncomfortable. And a lot of times, we prioritize comfort over moving things forward. We prioritize comfort over progress. And if you're not feeling uncomfortable, then it's. It's likely that you're not growing either. Right. And, you know, I think a lot of times, especially when it comes to issues of inclusion and making sure people feel like they're respected, regardless of their background, their race, gender, ethnicity, whatever it happens to be, is that sometimes it can feel initially like an indictment, like, oh, you're saying I'm a bad person? No. The reality is sometimes we simply cannot see what other people can see because of our perspective. I'll give a simple, benign example. My wife and I are proud nerds. And for. For Christmas, I got her a pair of those AI glasses with the camera. And after I got it, got Whitney her pair, I got jealous, and I got mine the next day for myself. And one of. One of the things that has been so fascinating is seeing videos from her perspective and her seeing videos from my perspective. And I look at the videos she has of me, and I'm like, that's what I look like. Am I a dinosaur? Why am I so big? And she's like, that's what I look like. I'm tiny.

I'm really small.

Right. And so we've been married for 14 years, but we haven't been able to see each other from that perspective. Right. And so it's not an indictment of me as a bad person or her as in a bad person. It's just the fact that because of our perspective, it's limited to what it is that I've experienced. And so you have to have these conversations in order to understand what it is that we're missing and how we can improve.

Absolutely.

So with this part of the interview, I'm going to be interviewing both of you about the spirit of collaboration between your cities and what other communities can do to work together and work through toward common goals. And so, Aaron, I want to pass the ball to you. To start off, when you think about the collaboration between West Lafayette and Lafayette, what would you say are some of the key values that bring both of the communities together?

Sure. I will say first that I am extremely fortunate. So this is. I'm entering my second year in office. I've had the great fortune of knowing Mayor Rozwirski for quite some time over a multitude of careers of mine within the Greater Lafayette area. And so that's really built on trust. We have worked together. We can rely on each other, and we know that. And I think that that spirit of collaboration has existed for quite some time in Tippecanoe county where we are. But, you know, that still requires that we show up, that we're honest with each other, that we make sure that, you know, our partners don't find out anything in the newspaper that we should be telling them. And always keeping in mind that, you know, everything that we do is always in the best interest of the community. So regardless of what the issue is, that's where the relationship always has to start.

You know, I think, you know, Erin touched on a lot of important points, you know, and she said her predecessor, Mayor Dennis, and I know she won't mind me mentioning him because he was a mentor for her. You know, him and I were very good friends, actually served on the police department together. And I think that's what you find in this community, is that people build relationships. Whether it's relationships at work in the community, as part of the public service structure in our community, people build relationships here and they care about the community. And when you care about the community, having those difficult conversations or just being able to communicate effectively happens easier. And it happens at a much higher level. And so. But you have to be active about it. And so we actively see each other. We actively have monthly scheduled meetings. We actively have a. We purchase some chemicals together, we serve on different boards together. It's not just about talking, too. It's about actively engaging processes that bring us together and be able to have those. Those conversations. And it's with us, it's with the Tippecanoe county commissioners, it's with Purdue and Ivy Tech. And so you can be honest, because we don't. And we can't see everything exactly the same every time because the communities do have different constituencies, they have different problems or different issues that aren't always identical. And so you have to be able to adapt and be in that proper mindset when we do that. And then we say this here, that there are Democrats and there are Republicans, but when elections are over, we're just all Cs and that's citizens. And that's the way that we look at it on how do we move forward now as citizens, like everybody else, to move the communities forward. If you think about it just real quick, from a civic standpoint, in the city of Lafayette and West Lafayette, there are only two full time elected officials. That's it, the mayor and the city clerk. There's a city Council of nine people which are part time counselors that come to certain meetings and do certain things. But there are only two full time elected. It's not big government for the top down, it is small government. And that's why it's even doubly important that we have those relationships because a lot of decisions have to be made and a lot of communication with the community have to come directly from us.

Yes, and, and what I love about both of your answers is that we, even though we're talking about big decisions that need to be made, their lives, there's money on the line. But when it comes down to it, we're still talking about relationships, we're still talking about trust, we're talking about genuinely caring about each other and about the community. And at the end of the day a community is nothing but a collection of people. Same with the government. And if we can start with that people connection now, we can expedite and improve upon these conversations that we're having. But again, we have to start with those relationships. And I think a lot of times we, we can make the mistake of becoming, focusing on becoming better professionals, but not focusing on becoming better humans, better people. And if we just continue to focus on the people and the relationships now, that is the catalyst for future conversations. And now we're not going to just say it's all, you know, unicorns and rainbows now. Right. Because at some point you have to have some of those tougher conversations. And so beyond just the, the foundation of the relationship, Aaron, when you think about some of the tougher conversations where big decisions need to be made, what are some things that people should keep in mind when it comes to making sure that we can have those conversations effectively?

Sure. So on the local government side, we are asked constantly to provide our support for a multitude of things. And I think one of the things that is so easy to find yourself wanting to do, but maybe you have to take a step back and really consider the impact of what you're doing, is when we're asked to take up an issue or a cause. Right. That we may or may not personally agree with, that our community may or may not personally agree with. And we have to have some really difficult conversations. One, to understand where the community is coming from. But two, understand what the appropriate pathway is. There are multitude of options that we can take and not everyone is the right one to solve that difficult problem. And it always starts with listening to people, even if you can't agree with them. And I think Tony and I have both become Expert listeners. We, you know, you have to start with listening to the most important thing to your constituents, regardless of whether you agree or not. At least you are coming from the same place and giving them the time and the respect to listen to what is important to them. And then, you know, there may be a hard conversation about what you can and can't do. As local government, we are easily expected to solve a lot of issues and there are a lot of things that are fully outside of our sphere of control. We can have influence in those, we can talk to people and encourage them, but we can't always solve every problem. So finding a pathway where people understand, where we can have impact, where we can be meaningful as elected officials and as local governments and providing support to that community without with recognizing that some issues we're unable to solve. So I think that's probably one of the harder things to be able to manage on a day to day basis.

Well, you know, I think, you know, a couple things come to mind and we touched on it a little bit earlier. You know, when you think about whether it's Aaron and I are within the political or public sphere or with other constituency groups in the community, you know, you really have to get in that, in that mindset, right? You have to understand the situation, try to have empathy, as we discussed earlier, and get things started on that, that solid footing to have those, those critical conversations. I mean, it's, it's as old as time almost. But you also have to begin with, you know, truly having an open mind when you start those conversations. You know, are, do you truly have an open mind? Because issues are typically complex. Sometimes they're really simple, but they are typically complex. And so do you really have an open mind to different points of view and different perspectives that might be brought to the table from different life experiences and shared or not shared values of the people that are discussing the topic. And so, you know, you kind of try to work yourself into that, that mindset. And then, you know, one thing that I've always had to learn is patience and persistence. You do have to be patient. Complex issues, difficult conversations sometimes take a long time and they're not something that you solve just at one shot. I'm a firm believer that incremental progress is a good thing. And if you can make incremental progress and finally get to that end result, you just sometimes got to be persistent and be patient. You just don't get it all in one shot or one conversation. And I think that's important, you know, and then just be Adaptable along the way. How do you adapt to things that present themselves that you weren't ready for? And then sometimes I what I tell my kids, my grandkids, you got to be resilient, right? It's not all going to go your way. You're going to get knocked down, something's going to happen, or you're going to make a mistake in a conversation, right? That happens. We've all done it where you make a mistake in the conversation and we're human beings and you're going to have to try to patch it up, lift it up and move it forward and be resilient, you know, with the process. So I think whether it's intergovernmental or just people in general, just getting into that mindset of how you tackle something is an important step.

I agree 100%. And what's fascinating about this, again, and this is something that we have discovered and rediscovered on this show over the, the nine years of doing it, is the fact that a lot of times we focus so much on these high level strategies, tactics, and we try to be these ninjas in these conversations. And you just need to be good people who listen and care and that's the foundation. And one of the things that you mentioned, Aaron, was the path, helping people to understand the path from where we are now to where we need to go. And then Tony, you talked about, about the process as well. And so it's not just about decision making, but also helping people to understand the process. So when incremental change does occur, they don't think it's a failure. This is actually part of the process. We're doing it the right way. So this, this is great. And I want to be respectful of both of your times because I know you've got a lot of important work to do. And I just wanted to give you an opportunity to leave the audience with a piece of parting advice for or leaders who find themselves at the top of organizations or in communities and they're trying to bring people together, what do you think is the number one thing that they need to keep in mind to make sure that those conversations can go as well as they possibly could?

You know, I have found that having a group of people outside of your organization that you can lean on, whether those are mentors, whether they are friends or colleagues, but outside of your organization that you can really work with on these really tough issues and say some things out loud and see how they land, because you're going to have to work through that issue one way or another. It's helpful to have a team there to help you with it. And then always just remember in difficult conversations, especially if you are the one bringing the difficult conversation, a lot of compassion and grace goes a long way.

That's a big question to narrow down into one thing. But I think when you, you, when you look at it and you touched on a little bit earlier about we're, we're human and we're people too, and not our position. I mean, I think that's, you know, that really boils down to that relationship and that, that trust, right, that, that people believe because the conversation all won't go easy, that this, that we truly care about them, the situation and the community. And that through critical thinking and a problem solving process that's human, we're trying to reach the right and fair decision. And we're willing to admit that we're not perfect. And we understand that whether you're trying to convince your kids to do the things you want them to do, or your grandkids or people, it's about building that trust and somebody walking away, being able to go, you know, I don't maybe agree with everything, but I actually, I believe he's trying to do the right thing. And, and when you can get that, and you can't just build that with one conversation, you kind of have to conduct yourself over a period of time over and over to build those relationships with people where they'll, they will, they're willing to work with you because they feel that way. And I think that goes a long way to helping solve the problem, reach a good decision. You got to be able to admit when you made a mistake and say, hey, we messed that up. We need to take a step back and start over. Because you're right. Because most of the time, all of us have a tendency to think we know every. What's going on. And at the end of the day, when the process was done, we realized there were a lot of things different than what our initial assessments really were.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before. Just kidding. I've told you before, but you should listen to it again. I want you to know about Negotiate Anything Premium. Imagine all of the things that you love about our traditional feed, plus so much more. I know you like our traditional feed because you're at the end of the episode. And with Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll get more bonus content. You've been asking for more of the expert insights that you can't get anywhere else and more exclusive behind the scenes access into every conversation. Are you ready to get more of what you want out of your life, career and every conversation? With Negotiate Anything Premium, you'll have access to more high level, custom designed content and insights, giving you the tool tools you need to negotiate higher salaries, better deals, and better relationships in your life and career. Once I had a listener share that Negotiate Anything helped her to negotiate a $53,000 raise. Could this be you? What would that mean for your life? I've seen firsthand the impact this model has had on my life and the lives of my corporate clients, and I am confident confident that it can do the same for you. Are you ready to negotiate more of the best things in life? Click the link in the show notes to learn more. I'll catch you later.