Building Bridges, Resolving Differences: The Michelle Oldroyd's Guide

Hello my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, and we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership and lastly, diversity, equity and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

If the work is part of you, if it is not what you try on between nine and five, but if what you contribute to conflict resolution is authentic to you, I think you carry something away from it that's different. Your reflective practice is different. Afterward, your lessons, even when an interjection or a moment of impasse really doesn't yield what you think it's going to, even if you think of something and define it as a failure, which I would say a conflict resolution professional shouldn't have in their vocabulary, just a lesson, right? A chance to move forward and try something new another time. But I do think that there's something really remarkable about the way in which a conflict resolution professional who embodies the work, who doesn't just do it right, because you can have the recipe, you can have the skills, and you can try them on. But the practitioners I know who do this because it is part of their core being, that it is a reflection of who they are as an individual. Whether you meet them at 8am, whether you meet them at their home, whether you meet them over a fence post, whatever the context may be, you would notice and experience process through their lens because it's who they are. And I very much feel that way about my lawyering and about my teaching and particularly my work in mediation. It has been a reflection of my soul. It's like my children walking around. I tell my kids all the time my heart walks around outside my body. In the four of them, I don't really get to control that. And I used to think the older they got, the easier that would be. And that's a misnomer. That was wrong. I was kidding myself and trying to gear up for them being 20 and thinking, oh, they're going to do some things on their own. Wrong. I don't fail to worry. I still have my heart walking around outside my body and it's in all of them. And this work is that for me, it is a chance for me to drop a little bit of whatever dust I bring in the world to that moment in time. And if it shapes process, if it allows for conversation, if it helps parties see through another lens, even just my weird third party lens, it might shift something for them. It might impact their ability to have a longer term relationship if they need to. Right. And that feels really like the contribution. I wish all lawyers knew about their lawyering, whatever their area of practice is.

How about we just start from right here? If you could just let the listeners know about who you are and what you do and then we'll flow right into the interview. This is great.

You bet. I'm happy to introduce myself. Thank you for the chance to be with you and the chance to have this conversation. I am Michelle Oldroyd. I am a lawyer and I am a teacher. I tell people when I introduce them and I meet them in person that I wanted to be two things in life when I was small and I was three feet tall and enunciated to the world, oh, I'm going to do this. I wasn't one of the little kids who said I wanted Valerie. I didn't think I was going to win a Grammy unless I was singing in my car. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and I told everyone I was going to be a mom. And I get to do both things. And that is the gift of my whole world right now, is to do those things well. And for me, in my work in mediation, that's where they intersect the soul of who I am. My intellectual talents and skills and learning, all of it, try to collide in this world of building process for people. And so I try to do work in mediation for specific clients. I'm constantly trying to employ my negotiation and communication skills in whatever arena I'm working in, whether that be through the Utah State Bar, through hosting CLE and being a teacher, or sometimes it's in public policy and group facilitation work, trying to bring a bunch of people in a room to some form of consensus so they can move forward in a more effective way. And if I can do a little bit of that, every single day, I feel like I'm advancing the ball right? We were talking sports earlier, so pardon the metaphor, but I do think that is really just the lifeblood of my lawyering. And it has been the gift of my life to know my mediation colleagues. They are my chosen family. You know, if I get deserted on an island and I can't bring my husband and my kids, then I'm bringing my mediator friends because they are phenomenal. They are people who can be sarcastic at 8am without coffee, and they can bring a sense of joy and passion just at conversation alone. The idea that we could disagree is really fundamentally interesting to us. It's not fearful. It's something we want. It's something we embrace, and that feels like a treat, given the world that we experience from the outside, culturally. I don't know that we celebrate that the way we should and we don't teach. That should be part of our American experience. And yet I think it's deeply American. I think it's sincere reflection of the rule of law. We ought to disagree, but we should do it in a particular way. One of the things that I have been so intrigued by and been so energized by in our LinkedIn exchanges is the celebration of listening. This notion that we have to have the skill set to be able to tolerate another person. Not just to be with them and hold them at arm's length, but to listen and take in a bit of them, especially when we disagree with them. Not because they disagree with us and not because we're trying to be well intended. But when we notice division, difference, disagreement, whatever we want to call it, we see it as an opportunity because of our conflict resolution skill set, rather than as something to fear. So that's me. That's one of the reasons why being in this podcast just feels like a treat and an honor. And I hope that what we communicate in this conversation to our peers and our colleagues is not only a sense of purpose, purpose and intention in our work, but the joy that we can really exude if we do this work. Constantly working in people's conflict, no doubt is hard, and it is draining and emotional and vulnerable in all kinds of ways, including for us. So self care is remarkably important, and continued lessons and learning and professional development is remarkably important. But I really hope at the end of this discussion that one thing that folks carry away is the joy we have for what we do.

That is incredible. You're absolutely right. When it comes to us as peacemakers, that's inside of us. It's something that drives us. And for me, just being able to see people come closer together and understand each other, that's deeply moving and it's blend between the mindset that we have and the skill set, because we need both in order to be successful. And we talked a lot about that at the beginning in our conversation. We almost didn't have this podcast, Michelle. We're too busy vibing. So listeners, if you want to hear a bit of that podcast, a bit of the little banter at the beginning, as we're getting to know each other, check it out. We talked about family, we talked about negotiable, we talked about the fate of the universe. And that's not hyperbole. So check that out. It was a fun conversation. But I want to go back to something that you said at the beginning because I love the way that you framed this and I think it speaks to your mentality and I don't want people to miss it. So a lot of times if you hear mediators talk or people who are in conflict resolution, they say, I like resolving conflict, I like building relationships, like creating peace, something like that. And you said, I really love building process for people. That's fascinating. So what does that mean to you?

Well, I think the fundamental work of a third party is not to usurp the role of the conflicted person, right? In order to resolve something, I think the person who's party to the conflict itself. If we're thinking of this as a pair, for example, and there can be other designs of process, right? Three parties, multiple parties, a larger group. But if we think of this as a pair, I think of the two parties that are conflicting as necessary components to the resolution. So I ought not usurp their role. It needs to be a self directed process. It needs to be something that they have negotiated that they agree to participate in, that they know, for example, they can withdraw from. But my purpose in being with them is to listen, to model certain skills, but also to have thought through the notion that I can help them find sure footing along the path that they are conflicted in. And if it brings them to mutual resolution, how lovely. If we only endeavor to have conversation, I still think how lovely, frankly, I think there's lessons there, I think there's building of skills. I think if they have continued relationships, if they're a family or a business, where they need something long term, we've modeled enough for them to carry forward that relationship. So for me, the interesting intellectual exercise is can I stay in my role? Can I maintain the ethics and composure of my role and can I continue to deliver process even if they are stilted, if they find themselves imbalanced, if they find themselves unable to listen, unable to speak, unable to know what the next step could be? Can I ask questions? Can I seek interjection? Can I non verbally continue to signal? Can I in any way develop process for them so that they can move forward and potentially resolve what's between them?

Does your company invest in professionals Professional development training? If you believe that your team would benefit from a negotiation workshop, all you need to do is go to our website, fill out the workshop request form, and then we'll set up a time to chat. These workshops are completely customizable and we've done them all around the country. Negotiation and conflict resolution skills are beneficial across all professions, but they're especially useful in procurement, purchasing, sales, sourcing, and contract management. Our calendar is filling up quickly and we even have some workshops scheduled for next year if you think you might want one. I'd suggest reaching out soon so you don't miss out. Check out the link in the description to learn more and we will be right back after this. I love this mentality because again, what you're doing here is trusting in, yes, your skills, but you're also trusting in the skillful creation of a process that works. And I think we can gain a lot of confidence from recognizing the fact that if we craft an experience for people, we're putting ourselves in the best position to be successful, while recognizing that everybody has autonomy to make their own decisions and the outcome isn't fully within our control. But creating a process that works, we have more control over that. And even when you reach impasse, that's what you said, you continue to deliver the process even if they get stuck. And so when you think about the difficult conversations that we're having every day, whether it's us with other people or facilitating conversations, a lot of times what I recognize people do is they blame other people for the outcome of the conversation without taking responsibility for doing what they can to make it better. So they run into a problem and then they say, ah, yeah, this person was being ridiculous, they were being disrespectful, they were saying this and that and the other, and then I broke down essentially is what they're going to say. So I got mad. Those type of things. Well, the thing is, if you stayed true to the process and maintained your form, you could have still improved the situation. Can't guarantee an outcome, but there was still more that we could do and it shows the power of process.

And for me it also is a hopefulness. In my chair, I find myself talking about this sometimes with my colleagues and I think they get it. Most of the time my peers who do this work out of their same sense of soul and purpose get it. When I say part of what I bring to the moment is a sense of hopefulness. There can be resolution, there can be an outcome. Is it inherently what either party is thinking as their ideal? Maybe no. Is it inherently designed by something in a statute or a piece of case law? Maybe no. It could be a whole array of options. Solution might only be somebody being able to walk to a parking lot, not in fear of the other person. Right? That's some layer of solution. But I think about all the different kinds of conflicts that I have worked within over my career. And what I know is that I trust process. I trust conversation. I know the value of it, I know the power of it. I know the meaning behind knowing that I speak with deliberate intention. And by speak I mean not only say things out loud, but I communicate even in my non verbals that I remain hopeful. It's this notion, I think about it in coaching kids in sports, right? You stay positive, don't hang your head. You see it in moments of conflict with people. You see it, you hear it where there's the head hanging moment, like there's just this deflation or my very favorite comment, which I swear I wish I would have put a jar out early in my career where someone will say, if I had $5 for every time someone said that, I'm going to resolve your conflict, I would be rich. But my conflicts haven't always resolved. And I think, okay, but you get to own skepticism then today that's what you own. And I think to myself, I was very young when I started this work and I used to tease that maybe I should just don a Tinkerbell costume and spread pixie dust, because that's part of what this. There's a little bit of magic, there's a little something in the spirit and the soul and the energy of a room. If you think that a room can hold that, being hopeful that something can get fixed and it may not be everything and it may not be only about money, that it could be something emotional, it could be something that needs to be said or heard or spoken or exchanged. There's a whole layered process here, right? And I think that if you have hopefulness for it, the possibilities really, if you're intellectually curious, boy, there's ray of things out there in front of you and how amazing to be at the start of something and think, okay, I have no idea where this is going. I don't know what people are going to say. I don't know how everybody's going to react, but I can trust that I can buckle in and ride it out. So let's go.

You know something I realized as you were talking, it just hit me because I know I can do this. I'm sure every mediator could do this as well. I couldn't think about mediations. I was in where people like to say, oh, it's 0 to 100. This person's at 100 and this one person's at 0. But in mediations, sometimes it's 100 and negative 100. Because you go in and the person's like, yes, they wronged me. They owe me this money because they're evil and they're terrible. Then I go in and I talk to the other person. They're like, actually they're evil, they're terrible and they owe me that same amount of money. Like, are we in the same universe here? But then if we trust the process and stick to it, we've all had situations where those seemingly hopeless situations where we got the deal done, it took a lot of effort, took a lot of time, but we got it done. And I think that experience that we have leads us to be a lot more hopeful and patient and trusting of the process because we don't write it off, because we've seen the miracle of the process actually work in front of our eyes.

And we don't sense impasse as the ultimate hill that cannot be climbed. Right. We don't view it as the mountaintop. We don't view it as the Mount Everest. Every time there's impasse. And our human condition, I think, is one of fear and skepticism of those things that sort of put us off. Right? I mean, I can think of it non verbally mediation table, everyone sitting together and someone whose chair slips back just even at an inch or even just small times at a clip during the conversation, there's a bit of their fear showing up, right? Or even, I think about rooms I've been in that haven't necessarily had a clearly accessible path out. And people who sometimes sit themselves and situate themselves near the door, sort of signaling, sometimes I think psychologically that I'm almost one foot out the door. I'm ready to go on this conversation. I can't hang in there with them. I just can't hear it. I don't want to listen. I'm afraid. And I think the bottom line of that fear for me is intellectually and professionally, I have had to learn that that fear is just a moment of invitation for what is next in the process. And I don't always do it. In my lifetime, my children would watch this and start roaring, and my husband, who. He'd have something to say because I don't always do it in my own world because it's hard and it's emotional and vulnerable. And it's one of the reasons why a mediator ought not mediate their own conflicts the same way a surgeon ought not operate on their child. Right. Because professional distance actually matters. The skill set doesn't turn on and click the same way when you're invested in the conflict. Right. Like I said earlier, the two parties have a conflicted role. They need to occupy those roles. So in my life, I also need to occupy my own role and defend my own point of view. On occasion, I'm going to stick up for a principal, for example, if that's what occurs to me first. But I try to employ these skills. I try to tease them out. But I also know in my office, and particularly when I'm mediating or negotiating with anyone, I want them to sense from me that I may not know what the end goal looks like, but I have a sense of direct purpose and sincere hopefulness at getting there.

Oh, that's powerful. And I think my favorite thing that you said is something that I love when negotiation experts and conflict resolution experts say this, when they admit that it's hard to do it at home, it's like, I have no skills at home. Like, who is this guy? He should listen to negotiate anything.

I was saying just recently to colleagues, if my filing cabinets in my office or my kitchen cabinets could talk, they would defy everything I'm telling you. They'd be like, oh, listen up. Here's how she really is. She is hard, she is difficult. And I am. I'm as passionate and partisan as the next person. And the things I love, I deeply love. And the things I want to protect, I want to put behind me. And you have to get through me to get to them first. That being said, part of what I want to protect and insulate is this small d democratic process that we know as conversation. It is so deeply American. And I love the patriotism of the idea of just saying, if we could only just be with each other long enough just to hear it isn't that hard. And yes, you're going to Be vulnerable. And you might hear some things you don't like. But I think adulthood is about knowing resilience, that you've got to live through some things you're not going to love every minute, right? If you get past the age of 12, you're certainly not an adult, but you start to see the world and you start to know that everything's not fair, that everything is not equal, that the world isn't always balanced. And hopefully all kids get isolated enough from this that they start to think their parents can balance things and their circle, their village, can help them center and can help them find the path to something better than something that's unfair or mean or bullying to them. But in adulthood, we don't always have that village with us every minute, and we've got to take it on the chin sometimes, you know, you've got to hear something that's hard. One of the things that I love about being a lawyer is celebrating this idea. Let all the people whose ideas and whose partisanship makes my blood boil try to talk to me because I want to hear it. I have to challenge myself to be one of the people who is trained enough to tolerate the thing that makes my blood boil. Because I want to be able to also express my point of view. But my point of view shouldn't be expressed before theirs. If I can't listen to them, if I can't be with them, if I can't empathize, if I can't find any human compassion or relationship to them, then maybe I shouldn't be the one who's hurt. Because I have to know both, right? Everything about our system and everything about our culture is about this sort of flip side dynamic that's constantly rotating and constantly evolving. And we've got to adapt. I think maturity and American democracy, Small D democracy, yes, I get all the big D democracy, pundit issues, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is fundamentally who we are to each other. The idea that we know when a neighbor's had a hard time, maybe take a plate of cookies over, right? That kind of democracy where we relate to each other, where we feel for each other, where we see something in a commercial and we go, wow, that's not my hometown. But I really hope that they're going to be okay. And I hope that people with enough resources belly up and start to help. And that kind of patriotism, that kind of sense of who we are and why it matters, that we relate to each other, that's this work that is this work in small little drops in the bucket all along the path, right. We're not going to take it in one big chunk. I swear. If we could, let's go like you and I and a bunch of our friends that we would get who we trust with process. Like let's go find the big nugget and let's just try and do it because we owe our kids something better than we're going to hand to them if they don't know process. But it's just not in one big chunk. It's all these little tiny moments, it's all these little conflicts that seem to weigh us down. And if we can start to get at those, if we can just start to break the ice, if we can maybe even unyield the iceberg that's below the surface, like how powerful would that be if that's the work that we're doing? Not just what's above the surface that we see, but all these things that are underneath and all these things that are complicated and messy and vulnerable, maybe we could learn and teach the idea that there's strength in just trying to tackle it. Yeah. And when we can't tackle it, that maybe we can because we built relationship trying to tackle it. Maybe we can weather it better because we're together 100%.

I agree and endorse everything you just said. It's so powerful. It's so powerful. And one of the things that we said is that conflict, internal conflict internal division is the biggest threat we have to not just our democracy, but to our existence as a species. We're more likely to tear ourselves apart than anything else. And it's really problematic. And again, people don't have that fundamental feeling of hopefulness which I think people can kind of write off as something nebulous and wishy washy. But I think it's really important if we just think about it from a scientific perspective. Apathy, learned helplessness, the so what effect, why would I even bother doing something that is impossible for me to do? It's not even possible. But the reason that people like you can resolve conflicts that seem to be so far apart, so divergent, is because you believe that you can do it. And when you find yourself in one of those situations where it's a tough conversation, either you're trying to mediate on behalf in between, serve as that facilitator, the third party neutral, or if you're in the conversation yourself and you believe in the process, you trust the process, you're hopeful that There could be a resolution, but you're talking to somebody who doesn't have that same hope. How can you get them to even take that step, to believe that there's value in the process?

So sometimes I find I default to transparency and I sometimes will even name that. And if I'm in the conflict or particularly if I'm the neutral, I find myself. I take a lot of notes inherently, that's part of my process too, is because I'm having sort of meta conversation, I'm speaking in the room and having a conversation, but I'm also trying to formulate process as we go along the path. So I'm trying to do multiple levels of the same conversation. My notes help me assess that. So I stay back tuned into certain things. And I often say it feels to me like you both are willing to give up on trying. Is that where you are? Do I hear that correctly? Do I see it correctly? In your non verbals, it's interesting sometimes the response because sometimes the response is, heck yeah, I'm ready to back out. Like, I'm not doing this, this isn't working for me. And everybody's sitting here and can recall situations where someone has said to me, what do you want us to do? Sit around a fire and hold hands? We're not going to be friends. And I think to myself, when did I say I wanted us to be friends? I didn't say anything about being friends. I'm really happy I don't have to go home with you. Like, I'm pretty excited about the fact that you're not going to be in my world tomorrow because I find you rather difficult. But I don't say that. Can you imagine if that's my interjection? Heavens to Betsy, I'd have no clients. But I think there's something to this idea of being transparent about what I see in here because I think it shakes up a bit of the fear. But it also presents the reality that there is an option to walk away. And I take no blame or shame in the notion that the process isn't working in the time that it's proceeding, that on occasion we push pause and maybe people return to the table. Maybe they do some work on their own, maybe they have homework they need to do right, they need more information and they just don't have it enough to be equipped to resolve something. Sometimes it's just an emotional thing. I can think about lessons in conflict resolution where I've thought, you need to go home, you need to get with your family, you need to decide if their judgment of this situation is the same as your judgment of the situation. Because if you're ready to let go of the conflict, but they're not, and you go home and they're feeling you of, oh, you got the lesser end of this deal, you got to go back and get more money and you da da, da, da da. That's going to blow up everything. This person's ready to go, but their circle is sort of not ready to go either. And so there's a whole kind of complex assessment that can go on there. There's some really lovely conversation though, that can happen in that moment about generating interests rather than positions, right? Rather than digging in on I want $5,000 more or my case is worth, or I am worth, which is one of the things that I will often hear where someone thinks they're assessing their litigation, but what they're talking about is who they are, right? What they're talking about are their principles, but they think they're assessing their litigated position. And you hear something slip in conversation of, I'm worth more than that. And I think, whoa, we're not dealing with litigation either. You know, we're dealing with more. There's another layer. And in order to be able to let go, that person has to hear something that validates that worth, right? That person has to hear something that they resonate with. And they also have to understand that maybe letting go of the conflict is not a matter of their self worth and that you divine your self worth through something else, not just letting go of conflict. That there can be real character in letting go of conflict. Also that there is not weakness there. When I first started lawyering, very baby lawyer, straight out of law school, one of my peers who was a family friend of my parents said, I heard you want to do mediation work. And I was so excited, right? Because I'm just getting out of law school. So I think my big office with my big paycheck and my luxury car and my luxury home and my other luxury home of a vacation property are all just on the brink, right? Waiting for me. So I'm so wide eyed and so excited, and he says to me, I hear you're gonna practice the girl's version of the law.

Oh my.

As if it was weakness to work in conflict resolution. His perception of that word and that phraseology was that there's a sign of weakness there. You're gonna sit in a weaker chair than one of litigator like me, right? That was the perception, the tone, and it was so tone deaf, right? And I remember thinking after I heard it, gosh, I wish I could have spit nails first. Angry, irritated, frustrated. But then I could have composed the answer that I want to say. And now decades post that, and even past this person's vibrant litigation career, I would say to him so directly that the work of resolving conflict is so much a position of strength. It is about courage, it is about bravery, it is about the very integrity of someone to sit with the person who they fear, who they can't listen to, who perhaps they shouldn't listen to, and yet try to work on process, try to bring something better than just fighting, just name calling, just destroying something further right? Already the conflict has destroyed something. It has broken something inherently. How much grace and how much sincerity do we have to really receive and respect before we see conflict resolution? Not as masculine or feminine, not as anything binary, but as everything, as the totality, as the encompassing, as the most inclusive way of going about, marching through the world and finding a way to work with everything that causes you friction. What kind of strength is that? I mean, show me the American military that can accomplish that, because it's not through force that accomplishes that, right? It's force, it's intellect, it's emotional intelligence, it's trauma sensitivity. It's arranging a vocabulary in your mind that you can draw on at any turn. It's listening at a level that is authentic and soulful, that isn't about something that you learned in a statute book, right? And it's all of those things. So I wish I could have assembled that answer in that moment. I was too busy being young and too busy not knowing how to say back to someone who I respected, boy, are you in the wrong. And I have enough gray hair in my head that I do that now, where I think sometimes I will just say it. I can't disagree with you more. I'm perfectly happy to hear your point of view, but I can't disagree with you more. And I see this work now as just the ultimate position of strength. You bring your backpack, you bring your process skills, you bring your communication skills, you bring everything that are labeled as soft to the hardest, most intractable moments, and you greet it head on. There's something so remarkable about that and so very human. It resonates on so many levels. I think of all the spirituality and religious connotations of that. I think about the universality of that in relationship to all kinds of ethnic backgrounds and lived experiences across the globe. I can imagine there has to be some mechanism of describing it in language, but my language would fail me to try to come up with it. Right. The only thing that I know of that is close is sort of this concept that the golden rule exists in everything, right? It exists in nature, it exists in science. It exists in every American and worldwide culture. Every kind of language. There's some expression of it, right? There's something about the notion of balance and fairness and justice as a concept that makes this work. The work of strength and the work of force and power in all the right ways. Force and power to be levied not to harm, but to resolve. And how amazing would it be if we start to give that to our culture, to our society, to our peers, to our children, Right? Imagine if we teach that in our schools now. Contemplate how the American school has become not a signpost for community anymore, but a place where people go and they're inherently afraid. But what if a school was a place that celebrated civics and talked about conversation and said, you have the skillset in you to resolve any kind of conflict, even if it's internal. You can do process work and resolve something without the use of force to harm. That, for me, is almost just a dream because I'm so shaken by what happens in our country on a weekly basis. Right? I went to school and sure, there were kids who were bullies and there were kids who said things, and, I mean, it's not going to be shocking to anybody who hears this, but I'm sure I wasn't on anybody's popularity list or list of what was cool anytime I was young. I'm not on that list now. Like, let's not be. Let's not be harboring any kind of illusion, you know? But what if that was the way we approach things for kids and said to them, you have within you the chance to do better and to do more and the very thing you think you can't. We're going to equip you with skills, so maybe you can try. And it isn't about doing it every time. Right? Our work isn't about resolution every time. And yet failure isn't really in our vocabulary. It's just a lesson. It's just a signpost along the way. So the next time you encounter that kind of impasse, maybe you can try again and do something different.

Wow. When we started, you said you were telling your husband, well, your eyebrows are going to be gone. Mine are gone. Look, the hair is already gone. It's done.

Yep. It's all singed away because we lit Each other on fire. And I swear I know everyone who's listening to this and who knows me is thinking she found her soapbox. But what I found is my joy. Really, what I found is a sense of purpose. I think carrying a bar card for me is a privilege, like being a mom. It is not the four corners of that card. It represents so much more about my obligation, not just to individual clients and not to just the system itself, but my obligation to something wider. Because I am trained, right? Theoretically, in my academic training, I have been told I can listen to someone who I disagree with. So why shouldn't I represent that in the wider community? Also, why don't I have an obligation to try to do that even when it is the hardest thing I could possibly try to do? It's such a profound part of the work that we do. And it is also something that we find in common with our non lawyer colleagues. Right? People from other walks of life, other professions. I can think of a variety of my own teachers in mediation who are not lawyers, but who bring a sense of that because of their spirituality, who bring a sense of that because of their deep devotion to American democracy, who bring it because it was their training in art, it was their training in architecture. I mean, you contemplate. Every subject matter has something about symmetry and something about corresponding need to collaborate and to see another side. We all know it in a variety of different contexts, in a variety of different words. Why aren't we trying it? You know, we've tried everything else. We have fought a civil war in this nation. And the idea that in my life, lifetime, people are telling me that I should gear up for one now. No. I say no. And I want to say that I would link arms with so many of my family and friends and my professional colleagues to say no. That's not an acceptable response to us disagreeing. You can maintain your point of view. I totally embrace that. I think I can move a mountain by talking to it. I really do. Right. I totally believe this. But I know better. I've had teenagers in my house. I know better than to think I can convince everybody to agree with my point of view. Let's not suffer fools on that front. I mean, I don't live under a rock. I live with all kinds of people who have all kinds of points of view. Even in my own house, we can disagree mightily. I mean, even just saying, like, let's go to a restaurant, like try and pick a restaurant with six or seven people, I mean, heavens to Betsy, that's a task. But it is the work of the soul, it is the work of our heart, it is the work of our intellectual to do better than just throw up our hands and say, well, we can't do it because we can't agree. We can't do it because we can't talk to each other. Can't do it because I can't see you. Okay, then close your eyes and keep trying, you know, then don't see me. But I'm not sure what it's going to take to sort of shake by the shoulders whatever's happening in our culture that's causing this give up mentality. But I like you when you said this apathy, this why should I care kind of laissez faire, let go of everything. And I don't have any accountability or responsibility. No way. We have responsibilities to each other that are fundamental, that are human, that have nothing to do with anything. We label nothing to do with anything partisan. It's not me on a soapbox. This is just me trying to save my neighborhood, trying to save my home, trying to save my kids schools, trying to think about the next generation, thinking if we all give up, if we all give in, what? What do you think? And all these little conflicts, we can say, oh, someone's divorce or someone's business separating or whatever. Intractable issue we want to face in the law. Intractable, yes. Difficult, Challenging. Hard. I mean, hard to the core of who we are. Hard. But okay, then just keep trying. Like there isn't any shame in the work. It's not called work by accident, probably. Like there's a reason why we refer to it. You were saying starting this conversation. I'm just emotional and I'm tired and I'm worn out because I have all these things. And I think the older I get, but what I see is that everybody has all these things. Like I might not know it. I don't know if my colleagues and peers go home to a child who's ill or are taking care of an elderly parent who maybe doesn't have all their faculties. You know, I think about all these things that are unseen that we don't know, but they're a burden nonetheless. They're a rock that this person's carrying around on any given day. What if all that's true and that adds up to this person not being able to sit still and try? Okay, but then maybe the next day or maybe a month from then, or maybe six months from then, like there's no shortage of time, energy, opportunity, even if we've done it before and it didn't work. I mean, what is really the alternative? I mean, we've been to court, we've watched someone tell us by authority, I say, this person wins. That feels great if you're the other person.

Right, right.

I mean, and we're all sports fans. I think that's the most common language in the universe of sports and I love that. I'm a huge sports fan and I think our home is a place where sports. I mean, sometimes I think the neighbors must need an apology. Like, are they killing people in their living room? Holy cow. It's loud, you know, and they've got a lot of cars. It's like a used car lot over there. What are they watching? What are they doing? Sports. You know, make no doubt, it is a sporting event and we are watching and we are loud and everyone can hear us. And I mean, what's the alternative? Like your team loses, so you just throw in the towel. Okay, well, I'm not going to play anymore. No, we show up the next season. How many of us are fans of teams who have lost and lost and lost again. And yet they show up because that's their profession, it's their calling, it's their passion, it's their joy. It's part of who they are. So then why do our social issues deserve less? Why do our emotional issues deserve less? Show up, suit up, give it a try. And the alternative is that maybe things are not working and that we give in and throw in the towel. But I don't want to live without people. I really like people. Like, maybe that sounds so corny and so cheesy and people disappoint me all the time. I will say to my husband, well, that surprises me. And he goes, you're old enough not to be surprised anymore. And I think somewhere that wide eyed, you know, patent leather wearing Mary Jane shoe girl in pigtails, like in a smocked little dress when she was little, still lives somewhere in me. And she's still so idealistic. You know, she wants everybody to try and she figures everybody is trying to help each other. I mean, I grew up in the era of Mr. Rogers. Look for the helpers, right? Look for the people who are helping. Go find the helpers in your neighborhood. If you're worried you can find a helper. And if they wear a uniform, great. They're easy to identify if they don't wear a uniform. Learn who's nice and who you can go to and maybe you can knock on their door if you need Help. And I think to myself, where did we lose that compass point culturally, as adults, as professionals? We're going to what? Throw in the towel? Throw in. We're going to say we're not working with our clients. Oh, I'm not trying anymore. Just go. I mean, we don't want our justice system to become a kiosk where party A goes up and types facts, then an hour later party B goes up and types facts, and an hour later it spits out at something and says, okay, here's your solution. I've decided, right? It doesn't need to be mechanical. It doesn't need to be authoritative. Only, yes, I am a champion of due process. I will be the first person to champion public trust and confidence in our course courts. It is a system I deeply believe in. Everything doesn't have to go there. Everyone doesn't have to go there. Mind you, everyone should be able to access it. And we need to explore ranges of ways we can access justice and all the opportunities we have for it. But I think mediators are just waiting in the wings, right? I mean, couldn't we unclog court systems by sitting down with people? Couldn't we unload the pandemic backlog by trying to mediate something we'd never tried to mediate before? I hear from people all the time. And I love my lawyers. Lawyer friends. I do. I love my chosen family of lawyers. I love them. I have a small sickness. I think the conversation of a courtroom is fabulous, right? It is. It is fun and energizing. And it's like a boxing match, right? And it's something you want to. Well, I want to watch. But I also want to say, do you think every single person who has a problem should be walking through the front door of this institution and delivering the problem? Heavens, no. Like, I mean, any one of us who's a lawyer thinks sometimes clients need something different. That's us. That's conflict resolution, right? That's where we come in. That's our calling. That's our chance. That's our one opportunity maybe to show somebody a process they didn't know existed and how amazing to work in the world of designing it. I mean, negotiable. Coming up, the idea that online we're going to build community where people can talk about how you might do something else and whatever the else is, it's okay. But how you could do something else, I mean, who doesn't want to be part of that? And if you don't, it's okay, then don't Join. But I really think that it is awakening possibility. It is opening eyes, ears, lenses, perspective, hearts. And I don't think of that as weak. I don't think of that as without purpose or intention or strength. I would defy someone who thinks that mediation is weak to try it. Yeah, sit in the chair. Because it is. I mean, some days I admire my colleagues who sometimes book multiple cases in the same day, but I'm not that gal because I don't know what's going to happen on any given day. And I also don't know how I'm going to feel like if I feel run over by a truck at 11:30, do I think the clients at 2:00 clock who come to my office are going to be like, she was lovely. Oh, no. You know, it's just not going to work out. So I want us to try. I guess that's the bottom line of where I'm at, is we've tried a lot of other things and they haven't worked well. And I am unwilling to concede. Like, that's the other side of me is like deep stubbornness, like right here. Like a totally red Chicago brick right there. Just stubborn as a mule. No, I'm not giving in. I won't do it. I can't do it. The idea that, I mean, we have to be the most intellectually curious we've ever been as a society. We have to be potentially the most inclusive, the most creative, the most aware, the most resource filled that we've maybe ever been in. So now we give up. Get real. No way. No, I can't. Maybe that's too idealistic. Maybe it is. Fault me. I mean, when I pass, there will be a hundred things on the list of things to fault me for. And if idealism is on the list, then I tried my best. I just don't want to give up to that. I don't want to give up the idea that we can do more, we can do better. And just when I think there's something we can't resolve. I want one of my friends in conflict resolution in any walk of life to come to me and say, I have this idea, I have this notion, maybe we can. Or what do you think of this pilot project? I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've sat in a room with my friends and we've said, maybe we should test drive this. Okay, then let's, you know, and I exist in a dispute resolution community. I have to give a shout out to my Utah mediation dispute resolution Friends, they are a gift. They have been a blessing to my life. Like my children, my husband, they want to try. There are a bunch of folks who, if I picked up the phone as soon as this podcast ends and called them and said, I need a bunch of you to show up and not to carry moving boxes, but we're going to try and we're going to do something about a problem or if, heaven forbid, I threw it out, we're going to do service to a bunch of young kids. I mean, my door would get beaten down. I kid you not. These are genuine, good, hard working people from all walks of professional life. Some lawyers, some non lawyers, and my lawyer friends who are mediators, they're almost family. There's just something about it. They do this work and they don't give in. And I think that's what you're finding resonance with online is that there's a lot of us, there's a bunch of us. And this work is about building community for our clients and it's about building community where we live. But now you've awakened this possibility that we can build community across all kinds of boundaries and borders and do it together and lift big things and only begun to scratch the surface. I mean, imagine if negotiable touches public policy. Imagine if negotiable in a class set of classrooms. The possibilities. It's gotta be like how it felt like the beginning of Disneyland, you know, what if we animate this, can we try it? Sure, go ahead, Imagineers. Go run wild. Go give it a shot. And just when you think you can't do it anymore, here's the second Avatar movie in year 2022 to blow your mind about what is possible. And I think to myself, that's this. The limits, the sky. And the sky's the limit. Like, let's go, off we go. And what if we really gave to who's next the chance it doesn't have to work every time. And even the fact that it doesn't work might mean that it gets better.

Exactly. Yeah, right.

Because that's been a lesson that has carried through sort of as a golden thread between several of the LinkedIn posts that I've been reading. Is this notion that even if it doesn't work, work. I want somehow to have us reframe this notion of failure, that it's just the stepping stone to whatever's learned next. And even in failure, like there has to be that failure in life. Like our kids both play sports, right? Our kids, that's something we have in common. Is we are sports parents. Well, okay, but what if being sports parents means one of our lessons from conflict resolution is all the kids on our kids sports team only hear positive things from our sidelines. They don't hear critique, they don't hear negativity. It's not, get out there and break so and so's leg. It's not, oh, the referee or the umpire is wrong, so go out there and pout instead. It's, we're going to say only positive things. Every kid's going to hear their name. Every kid's going to hear us say, good job. Keep your chin up, Keep trying. You've still got time in the game left. Get out there and fight. You can still do something. Will you win the game? Maybe not. But can you make a shot? Darn right. Can you give it a shot? Can you run a play? Absolutely. But there's a life lesson there that is part of the reason why we registered our kids for sports. Right? Like, you can survive if you lose. And this whole let's give everybody a trophy. Fine, give everybody a trophy, but teach the lesson. Life doesn't do that.

Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah.

But maybe there's something to this idea that, like, maybe that's what we do as conflict resolution professionals. And we say to our team teams, when you're professionals and you're getting paid and everybody's an adult, I'm a rowdy sports fan. You won't likely hear me say something like, break someone's leg because I don't eat somebody's kid. Like, someone's kid. Come on. Like, even if they're 30, I don't want to do it. I'm not going to be the one. But I'll be on my front porch talking to whoever wants to talk to me. But I think the power of your LinkedIn presence and continued posting, but also I think negotiable in all sincerity, is really about driving this point. We just have to keep trying. We have to assemble all the drops in the bucket. And if we give up hope, if we give up, then what? I dare someone to find it. Tell me, because I'm willing to listen. I said that before. I'll even listen to the person who disagrees with me on this front tell me that there's something better. Okay, then I'm willing to try that. Whatever you think is better. Let's go. Let's try. But what we've been doing isn't good enough. We've made so much progress and we're doing so well and that is lovely. And yet we all see room to keep going.

Exactly. And we can't stop. And for people like us, again, like I said before, we're more important now than ever. And so we need to keep on pushing the message. So spreading the message, yes. But also continuing to show by example. I appreciate this. I appreciate your passion and how much you care about this. It is palpable and I can't wait to share it. And I remember earlier, well, you said, well, I'm not that popular. Well, hopefully after tens of thousands of people hear your voice and your pageant, I think that'll go up a little bit.

So I have also had this funny dream about writing a book. And I keep telling myself maybe it's not going to work and that the only people who might buy it would be, like, my mom and my husband and maybe we'd get a copy for our kids. But pretty much really like, who's going to buy it? Who wants to hear from me? The idea that tens of thousands are going to gives too much. I appreciate the need that the podcast needs to go viral and that people need to watch. What I hope people hear is something they respond to. Find something in what we've said today, in the joy we have at our work, a way to plug in, a way to fit it into your world. If you don't know conflict resolution skills, this is the time. Go find a training in your area, you know, meet some colleagues you didn't know before. And if you're in Utah and you want to reach out, if you're not in Utah and you want to reach out, I'm game. I'll hear from anyone. I'll take all comers. I'll talk to you. I will listen. This work is too important to just not celebrate it and to do it. I'm not sure what the book would be about. I have a dream.

This is great. And I think one of the other things that was really empowering for me too, is just recognizing that. I really appreciate that you were able to call some of the shots that I've been thinking behind the scenes and talking to the team. So it's like, hey, get this into schools. Check. Get this into policymakers hands. Check. Create an atmosphere of other peacemakers where we can help to show the world how to have difficult conversations and how to bring each other together. That is the goal. So we start off with negotiation skills and tactics and everything. That's our inroad. It's really validating to see that you're seeing the chess moves before they happen. That means a lot. And I'm glad to see that you're on the rocket ship, too.

Well, it is joyful to be part of this community. And now the notion that it's spreading beyond Utah. It's something that when I started this work, I wouldn't have known to envision. And how lovely that you've held up the mirror and I see it in the reflection. And let's go. There's a bunch of us marching. We might as well all go the same direction.

Exactly. Michelle, this is great. Thank you so much. Can't wait to have you here.

Such a treat to talk with you. I have waited and this lived up to every expectation and exceeded it. It is joyful to have a conversation with you, Kwame. I promise I'm looking forward to what's next. And anytime we can collaborate, you say the words. I look forward to it.

Oh, man. This was great. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.

I read your LinkedIn posts constantly. I'm sharing them with my husband, with our kids. Kids. It's a topic of conversation that I often share with colleagues in meetings because the posts move me. They make me think. And I have just been itching for a conversation with you. So this feels like such a treat.

Thank you. That means a lot, Michelle. I appreciate it. I mean, that's the goal. So it means a lot to know that it's working and it's. And you're spreading the message. That's the goal. That is the goal. So I appreciate it.

Absolutely. I think the work you're doing to build community around conversations and it's so timely and imperative to our collective well being and our collective democracy's well being. I feel so concerned. We have older children and we have a 10 year old and I just constantly find myself reflecting on what are we leaving them, what are we giving to them, what's going to be their skill set to tackle what's next. And I think the skills of dispute resolution ought to be taught in all schools, especially in public ed. I think that that when we're teaching financial literacy and we're teaching Internet safety and we're teaching physical and mental well being, we ought to also be teaching communication skills and the skills of dispute resolution. Turning on the news these days is an act of bravery to tolerate sort of what's coming our way. And noticing that our American cities are besieged with stories of how people can't resolve a conflict.

Bingo. Exactly. And to me it is our biggest societal threat. It's an existential threat. And people don't really get that name any other threat. And conflict is at its core. Right. Because anything else societally that people are struggling with, we have people would call the culture wars. We have disagreements about how to address climate change or whether or not it exists. All of these different things. Okay. To me I see all of that as a breakdown in conflict resolution and persuasion skills. And we with since very few people have a deep skill set for these types of difficult conversations, they resort to just their natural tendencies which are tribalism and survival of the fittest. And the only way we can get things done is through power alone, just force of will. That's not sustainable. And it's. And especially with we think about we've had growing division over the last few years, decades, things like that, but it just keeps on growing. And then we also have the advent of AI how that's going to change the way that that society is structured fundamentally. We are just not equipped to deal with any of this. So yeah, I appreciate that. To me it's at the core of everything that I do just trying to get the message out as much as possible because I think it's pretty the consequences of not getting this right or dire.

Well, I have come to feel like I know you and I admire how you have a sense of purpose around sharing your life and your fatherhood and your relationships as examples and as lessons. And I can't help but just want to join the cause and constantly support the work that you're doing.

I appreciate that your comments made it clear you have a lot to offer. So I wanted to help spread that message as much as it's important. Oh, thank you.

Just group of us who really want to stand in the middle and say no, no, no, you don't have to do this badly and you don't even have to do this in a way that hurts you or causes fear or that escalates the situation. You can do so many things that. That don't cause that level of anxiety and friction. And just even to make the offer, just to make the pitch, there may be a dozen resources that someone could access if they're worried about something or wanting to advocate or be proactive or even just feeling overwhelmed by something. But the skills of negotiation, of mediation, even group facilitation, I think are remarkable for what they can employ and what they can encourage, and also what they model for what you can use down the road. Even if you think you see someone doing something that, oh, I would never do, fill in the blank. Or I might never interject the way he or she did. And how lovely to think that in the moment. But it's the same thing as parenting, right? You only know what your resources are going to require in the moment. And so you better carry a large backpack behind you because you don't know what you're going to need to pull out on any given day. And so what I love about this possibility is that you're just awakening this notion that I'm just building your quiver of air arrows. I'm just giving you a toolkit. And whatever you want to draw on on any given day, please feel free, please employ it. But also please reflect on this notion that we've met you and we've talked with you and we've shared community with our colleagues and friends. And how lovely for that to be the influence down the road.

I love it. Yeah, you're spot on. I think us as peacemakers, we're going to be more important now than ever. And one of the things I realized is that one of the key attributes of good peacemakers is that they're humble, which is great. And it provides a challenge when it comes to proliferating the message because it's not in our nature to kind of put ourselves forward. So this hasn't been really comfortable for me to do. I didn't do it for years. I'm going to prioritize the mission over my comfort and put it out there. Doing it publicly, too. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. The first. What was it the first six or seven weeks of the year? Year I was on the road. It was ridiculous, negotiable. The thing I've been talking about for forever.

I saw it today.

I'm so excited. Thank you. I was up till 3am finishing this thing off. Michelle, if only you knew. It was wild. And so it serves two strategic purposes. First, going back to what we were talking about, before just recognizing, hey, it will be great for us to have a community of peacemakers where we can sharpen our skills, learn and grow together, things like that. Because I wanted to get to a point where we can like negotiable as a community. We're offering guidance to different communities and different causes to help them to have better conversations and address it in a more empathetic and strategically sound type of way. And then also just recognizing, okay, I've come to terms with the fact I'm not Superman. It's been a wild year, all of that travel, there's an opportunity cost, there's family time, there's the amount of effort it takes to be on the road that quickly. Michelle I did this was just dumb planning. My team didn't want me to do it, but I thought it would be a cool story. It was stupid. I did a keynote in Daytona beach on Thursday and then I had a presentation on Friday in San Diego. And then that was on Friday, the whole afternoon in San Diego. And then I made it back in time for Kai's basketball game at 11am.

Oh my gosh. But to your total credit, the sheer joy of the week was the basketball game. Oh yeah, I hear you. Our 10 year old daughter has just recently endeavored to be playing girls tackle football. Utah has a girls tackle football league. That's cool. It's one of the coolest things I've ever heard of because we're one of the few states in the nation that has a girls tackle football league. And I have to tell you, there's part of me that watches like this because I can't stand the notion of someone tackling my baby. It's hard for me to watch and it was hard for me when our son played high school football. So it's doubly hard when it's a girl. And she's petite, she's only four feet tall, she's not 100 pounds, and yet she's quick and she adores the game of football. She is her dad's daughter. That she has grown up watching football, going to football games, speaking the language of football, wearing jerseys and hats her whole life. And, and so this is, she told us of on the registration day with tears in her eyes in our car. You've made all my football dreams come true. And then about a half hour later she says, except buying a team. I'm like, okay, just slow your all, you know, you're 10, your bank account can't tolerate this yet. But she keeps telling her, dad, daddy, I'm gonna buy us the Buffalo Bills one day because you and I are going to sit in a box and we're going to watch games. And it's just this wide eyed approach to this game. And I can't tell you how much joy at the end of a long week I have now going to a football field cheering for a bunch of girls. I mean, the officials are women, the coaches are women. They incorporate men and women all places. But I mean, there are women coaches on the field, there are women referees on the field. It's a dynamic and super positive environment for young women. And I love that it's in Utah.

Yeah. Oh man, that's amazing. That's gotta be so empowering for her to step up and do something like that.

It's just super eye opening to see it through her lens. And it's also so edifying to notice that even though the steps might be small in certain places, and even though there's work to be done to bring us together, the steps matter. The drops in the bucket are collecting. Somewhere in the universe that's holding the bucket. It right. The drops matter. It sets me on fire to keep doing this, to keep advancing the ball. And truly it was part of my reflection on Sunday, getting ready for the week, thinking I'm going to talk with Kwame on Monday and I get to do some of the drop collecting. How lovely that this can be part of my work for the week.

Oh, this is great. This story made my day. Because really you're celebrating her authenticity. And there are going to be parts of ourselves that society might not say are aligned with what we would expect someone like you to be doing. Doing.

It's been so joyful she's been like this in our living room. I mean, I think she thinks the players can hear her, the coaches can hear her. You would laugh to watch her during the NFL or the collegiate season because she'll say things like, don't suit up in my uniform if you're not ready to play. And she says it to the TV with attitude, as if the player knows that they're irritating her and she's frustrated in Salt Lake City that they're not playing up to par. You're in my uniform and you didn't come to play. You're going to run laps after the game. Name, she'll say to the television. And I think to myself, I'm like, you know, this isn't happening. Like this can't be. You are not affecting anything. But she coaches as if they are hearing her and she's done it since she could talk. And it's just the way she's sort of lived her football self. And we had no idea this was coming. And then during the super bowl, there was a commercial for Utah girls tackle football and my whole world upside down.

Wow, that's so cool. That is cool. So I'm going to keep an eye out. 20 years or so, we're going to see her on the sidelines.

I'll wear red. I'll wear the Bill's gear that's red or the Bill's gear that's black or gray and have the accent colors. And Avery's like, what's wrong with you? Go get a Josh Allen jersey. You got to get on it, Mom. And you know, you don't know. And yet my collegiate gear is all of our team. My husband and I both graduated from the University of Utah. We are devoted football fans. We have been since we were dating. We went to football games, dating, raised our older kids, going to games. Avery knows nothing but going to games now on Saturdays during football season when they're in town. We even planned our wedding around the University of Utah football schedule.

That's so cool. Listen, I get it. We're Buckeyes.

There you go.

We're obsessed. Kai is.

We know. We lent you Urban Meyer, and then he went off and did other things, too.

Urban is a man of the world, apparently.

Oh, my goodness, everywhere. Some things I see and I go, oh, I recognize that. And then other things, a headline will come out or an interview will be done. I recognize that. So it's so funny how people are what they are. And we got to know this little window of time in his football journey and his public life. And yet I remember the very first time I went to an alumni dinner featuring a discussion he had about football. And I literally thought I was going to have to tie my husband to his chair because my husband was like, I am going to going to explode. This is the best football discussion I've ever heard in my entire life. And he says to me, he's going to change the university. And lo and behold, he did. I mean, it's completely. The football program is different because of his influence. And I don't know how many people say that in their career that they really make such an impact. To shift something, you might see little moments of it, but to see the shift, it's phenomenal. And that really, truly, if in the most blessed world that I could find for your work, that is what I hope help you see when you turn back around that you have done that for your colleagues, for your friends, for the industry, but also for the possibilities of what online community building and virtual community building can do for an industry. It is the model of such integrity, but also such forward thinking. And I love it. I love it.

Thank you.

When I was first studying mediation, I would have never thought that this moment could be so. And here I am today day. I told my husband, I said, if I come home and my eyebrows aren't there, it's because I got lit on fire in the middle of the day and they just left.

Michelle, you had no idea how much I needed this. I have been dragging all day with negotiable. Oh my goodness.

It's a lot to lift, but it shows that platform is phenomenal. And the notion that we move from listener to persuader to actual engaged participant. This idea, that model is also the way we should communicate. We can't ignore all the rules in the room, including those who stay silent. Listeners are so valuable. The folks who want to generate the argument and be the persuader, they are valuable too. As lawyers, we recognize that there's part of us that loves that role. But if you are a little too much, but if you're maturing your thought and you're building your skill set, you want to create your arsenal of tools to pull out at any moment, you know, you have have to go beyond that, that your engagement has to be about who you are all the time, not just what you do between nine and five. And so the idea that negotiable creates room for you to be who you are all the time and engage with these messages, It's a phenomenal creation. It really is.

Thank you. Means a lot. Team effort. Can't take credit, all of it. You know, Steph Palai, she pushed very hard for this and she was right in its showing. So I'm excited. It's, it's. We're just getting started. It's going to be a lot of.

Work, but I love it.

Thus far has been good.

It's an opening door and everybody's going to find their way through it. And for those who can't find the door, they'll find a window. So everybody's going to find a path here. And I think we're just starting to scratch the surface too of what can be public policy wise. I mean, wouldn't it be phenomenal to see the intersection with government or to see an intersection with something in a world that makes a slightly larger conversation? I think about all these moments with celebrities and athletes that become public and become part of our lexicon but really aren't dealt with, and that there's not necessarily accountability or that there isn't even resolution to show young people that adults in all walks of life have to have accountability and have to solve problems even when they're hard. And I'm just sort of itching for the chance just to see the intersection, because I think it's of kind.

Oh, yeah, I think it has to. That's one of the big plays. It's just constantly trying to inch more toward the mainstream because it's necessary. Because you remember, I don't know if you saw this, but I was in Hollywood and I had the opportunity to pitch the Oprah Winfrey Network and some other folks and everything like that. And one of the pieces of feedback that I got was that they're like, your approach seems a little bit too clinical. We're afraid that you'll resolve the conflict too quickly.

You're like, wait, hold on. What? That I might be effective?

That was the feedback the producer gave. I said, wow, okay, so like, 42.

Minutes with commercials, I'll be just like a sitcom.

Exactly, exactly. Well, I'll strategize it. Not yet. Argue more.

Hold on. I'd like to hear you all bite each other's head off a little bit. And if it's possible, if you could mix in here, a little bit of bullying, maybe just a little bit of obstinance and stubbornness, that would be great, because it would help us out to get through the next commercial break.

Bingo. Exactly. And so the big wild idea about negotiable is that down the road, I want it to be platform, kind of like Hulu or Netflix or something like that. So we have an increasing library of skills, conflict resolution, negotiation, communication, leadership, all of that in there. But then also we have have actual produced content that are TV shows around conflict resolution that are entertaining and exciting and things like that. So we can show that resolving conflict and actually teaching people how to do it well, there is value there. So that's the big idea. But we have a lot of steps to get there.

And one day, maybe borrowing the platform and putting it in public at schools where kids can access online and see it and live it in real time and ask questions and engage with it. I've been saying that the TV show, I don't know if you ever watch it, Chopped on the Food Network.

Oh, my gosh, we're obsessed.

So I think Chopped is a model for teaching mediation because mediators all Approach their process very differently. And wouldn't it be interesting if we handed them all a basket of the same conflict information? And yet watch the different approaches over time, in real time, maybe give each 20 minutes to start working on the conflict. And yet the facts are the same, just as the ingredients are the same for the chef. Because I think there's real value there in noticing, especially for young people, this idea that there's not one way, there is not one way, and in life there won't be one way. And sometimes you proceed down a path and you think it is right and you think it is good, and you think you have purpose and intention doing it. And only several steps in. Do you realize you're going to have to take it on the chin, turn around and go back to the start and keep working again? And wouldn't it be lovely? Because that will be the interplay, right, of four different people showing four different styles. No one right way. Just like in cooking, there's not one dish that you have to create at the end of Chopped, but there's stages, right? Appetizers, entree, a dessert. But there's stages in negotiating to the beginning of the conversation. The moments of impasse work to yield a resolution. Wouldn't that be interesting to see the interplay of different styles along that path?

That's so good. Okay, I will note this when we.

Are, because I've been thinking about it for a continuing education training that we do. I keep saying I'm like, I want a bulk of time and I want different styles, and how do I play it out in real time, like a fishbowl. And we've test driven little bits and pieces of it along the way, but never been able to put together, like, the full meal as onshore chop. But I love this idea because everybody I know watches Chopped. We all get it. And wouldn't there be something so visually stimulating about the notion of opening the basket? All the same facts, and imagine it comes up on the screen. Here's what you know starting, and maybe what you learn. What each mediator learns is different by the time the show ends. Right? Because only by your questions, only by your interjection, sometimes only by letting probably process play out with you and you alone, do you get something more.

Yeah. Oh, that's good.

It's my dream.

Yes. Listen, I'll come back to you because I think that's a brilliant idea.

If the Food Network could endorse this concept and we could utilize some of the parts of our sort of cultural understanding of that show. To overlay it with the training, I think it would be phenomenal to see.

Yes, agreed. Oh, that's cool. And it's cool to know that you're a Food Network junkie like me. Fun fact. First concept that we pitched was actually for the Food Network.

Really?

Yeah. Business partners who were starting restaurants and then they fell out of love, contracts and relationships.

Yeah, yeah. The complication of life. I mean, really? Yeah. I mean, it's so much reality tv. It doesn't even fit the reality TV mold. Right. Exactly.

It's too real. It's too real. Real.

That should be the title. It's Too Real.

Yeah.

There's something sort of amazing about that concept because it's provocative in all the right ways. For me, it would make me tune in every week to contemplate. Okay, here we go. One more different set of circumstances, one more different set of personalities, and then you overlay that with a different set of skills. And you don't know what the path looks like. But how intriguing to watch people carve out their path. Yeah. It's too real. I love it.

Yes. Oh, man, this is good. I'll talk to you forever.

Well, we're doing this again then.

Yes, we will. For sure. For real. That would be good. Let's see. Kai's going to be here in a little bit, which is fine. He always pops in. I'm just giving you a heads up.

Perfectly okay. Tell him hello from me. I don't know him, and he doesn't know his Aunt Michelle, but from Salt Lake City. Well, in so many sports endeavors.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that you'll be in at some point. He always makes an appearance. But, yeah, I'm pumped about this and I saw your prep looked great, and so I think what we could do, let's just flow. I don't feel we don't need to stick to those things. I'll kind of. I'll play off of them a little bit to ask some questions, but I think even talking about a little bit of what we were talking about before, just how important it is to have these skills and your experience, and then we'll leave them with some nuggets. But wherever the conversation goes is where it goes.

I can't wait. Like I said, I'm hoping my eyebrows get singed completely off because you could no sooner light me on fire than make me more excited than I am right now.

I appreciate it. That means a lot. Now, this is going to be good. These conversations, they energize me because I was dragging into this. I'm like, oh my gosh, negotiable is just will not leave me alone. And then I come here and now I'm energized again. Perfect.

Good. Well, that's the self care of the work too. I mean, the work is draining and fundamentally important and yet.