Building Trust and Connection in Negotiation: Lessons from Kasia Jagodzinska

Hey, I'm Kwame Christian, and you are.

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Kasia, thanks for joining us again. My friend.

Kwame, nice to see you. Always a pleasure.

Yes, likewise. So for those of you who might have missed your previous episodes, just give yourself a quick introduction and then we'll start chatting.

Yes, my pleasure to be on the podcast with you, Kwame. My name is Kasia Godzinska. I'm an international negotiation expert, author of several books on the topic of negotiations. The latest one, the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiations. I specialize in multi party international negotiations, intercultural. I'm a professor based in Switzerland and I'm also a trader and a business consultant. Coaching and mentoring and training executives and from all over the world basically. And negotiation, helping others, empowering them also from the psychological perspective is my passion.

Yes, this is great. So listeners, it's always a great opportunity when Kasia is here. It's hard to find somebody with a resume as long as Kasia's is right now. And then we'll put links to all of her books in the description if you're interested in checking that out. So today in our chat, this is going to be pretty open and for me, one of the beautiful things about the podcast is being able to talk to cool people and friends and then we just happen to record it. We're having these conversations all the time, so might as well share it. So today we're just going to talk about the future of negotiation and communication, what we can do to stay on top of it to make sure that we're communicating effectively, but also anything we could do to prepare for any upcoming changes. So Kasia, for you, when you think about the future of negotiation and communication, what are some of the things that come to mind for you?

I think that the first thing comes to my mind is the myth of multitasking. That teaches us basically the habit of losing focus and losing interest in the person that is in front of us. I think that's becoming very dangerous. When I watch people now at airports, in public spaces, students, MBA students, executives, everyone is on their mobile device, so no one is really paying attention to the people around them. I think that lowers are social observation skills, our interpersonal skills. I think that lowers also emotional intelligence. I see it as a dangerous trend. Now don't get me wrong, I think that technology is great. I think that we can benefit from a lot of developments. However, my personal opinion is that AI cannot compete with the human factor. It can make certain processes perhaps more understandable, more speedy, more digestible. But I think it cannot replace the genuine human interaction peak person. And I always say two things about negotiations. I've been repeating this so many times that it starts with you or self empowerment, how you feel. And it's primarily a human to human interaction. And human to human are emotions, our feelings. It's also psychology, it's ability to communicate those feelings and what we need, our interests, our needs, our motives, and also to understand. I think there's a deficit of understanding and trust that we're experiencing economically and politically as well, globally, unfortunately.

I agree with everything that you said. And as I look at the notes of everything that you mentioned, I'm realizing, wow, there's a lot that is competing for our attention and pulling down the level of communication that we're having just interpersonally. And one of the things that you mentioned that I don't think is mentioned enough is the social observation skill that we are lacking. So can you go a little bit deeper into that and just start off by what do you mean by social observation skills? And then we can go into those examples.

I mean simply the ability to recognize the person and to realize that the negotiation position or what they're asking for. I like to refer that to an iceberg. It's what we see, the tip of the iceberg above the water, basically. But very often we fail to understand or we misinterpret certain signals in body language or also we're doing quite a lot of negotiations virtually now and we fail to understand some of the words, understand the context, also in the translation. A lot of things are locked in the translation. But this could be all facilitated if we cared to pay attention. And that is not something that we can do on the spot. It's something, it's a habit. I would say it's a habit of functioning in society that we are losing because everyone is preoccupied basically with a screen. A screen that is emotionless, a screen that does not provide a lot of feedback, does not provide any social cues as well, and does not really teach us how to interact with people. And then when we interact, we be clumsy or uncomfortable or stressed, and it makes it difficult for people to connect. That's my opinion.

Yeah, I think your opinion happens to be a fact as well. You're spot on. When you think about the term people skills. We're not talking about people talents, we're talking about people's skills, meaning that these are built over time. And when you start to pull back from interacting with people, then you start to lose some of those skills. And so, like you said, human interaction, it's a habit. But as we engage in the habit, we build our skills every single time. And when we're focusing so much of our attention to technology and to screens and those type of things, when we're now in a situation where we're interacting with another human right in front of us, we're missing out on some really, really vital skill.

Exactly. And I'm trying not to miss out on what you're saying, but I'm also trying to take notes. And because you said some very, very interesting things that got me thinking about how it used to be, how people used to gather around the table earlier, around the fire, share stories, share the family history, share certain myths together. And that would create a sense of trust between people, a sense of bonding, security that triggered safety as well, a feeling of community, a feeling of belonging. And now we are losing. We are losing a lot of those traditions. We are losing also the ability to connect generation to generation, to learn from each other. My mom always used to say, learn on my mistakes. I'm not delusional. It's not possible for anyone to learn on the other's mistakes. But at least we can make some observations for ourselves going forward. I think we have to experiment, but in order to experiment, we have to dive in to that society as well. To behind the mask, basically, or behind the screen in this sense. Because I feel it's not just a mask that we are wearing in society now. It's also the screen or the image on social media, for example, that create a false identity for a lot of people and then a lot of complexes for the ones that are observing and think this is the perfect reality, and I have to function in that reality. And if I don't, then I feel like an outsider. And the cycle closes, basically.

No, you're spot on. And what's really interesting, too, is when we think about it, yes, this is the societal challenge. We are missing out on social cues. We're not connecting to each other in the exact same way, but also it provides us with an opportunity to really get ahead in the marketplace, because few people are really honing in on this skill and sharpening the sword as it relates to human interaction. But when you talk to somebody who's actually a good conversationalist, who can ask empathetic questions and actually listens in a meaningful way and is focused on you as the speaker, it feels completely different. And it's a really easy way to stand out when it comes to the relationships you're forming with other people.

Definitely. And, Kwame, I'm not meaning to sugarcoat anything, but that's the reason that I keep coming back on your podcast, because I feel that as one of the few people, you actually are genuinely interested. It feels great connecting with you. It feels great talking to you. You give the gift of attention which is becoming more and more rare in today's society, unfortunately. And speaking of which, very often when I am in executive courses, high impact leadership courses, management courses on executive programs for talented individuals who start their career or want to take their career to the next level sitting there or very often training those people, I have the impression that we've taught people all the strategies, all the tools, all the techniques, all the tactics, and now what we need is to teach people back how to be people, how to function back in society. It's like my dad always says, all these young guys who go pumping themselves up in the gym, he says, my generation didn't do that. We just went in the garden, we'd cut some trees, we'd mow the grass, we cut some branches, and that would be our fitness routine. And now people need an artificial routine for everything that they're doing. I'm not saying don't go to the gym as a takeaway from our podcast. I'm saying do not overcomplicate some things that should be natural, natural that are not easy. Natural does not mean that they're easy, but at least do not impede the progress that is the spirit or the fuel of the humankind, because a machine or technology can never replace that fully.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode.

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You're so right. And I love the point that you made about the gym and working out, because back in the day, working out just happened as a result of existing as a person. And now you're right, we have to force ourselves to do it in order to stay in shape. And really what I've recognized is that as we've developed in society and developed more technologies, essentially we're trying to do. I mean, we are animals, humans are animals, we're social primates. Right. Every advancement we make, we're trying to make ourselves less that animal which has pros and cons. Right. Because I can get in my car and drive places. In the past, I would walk. That's very convenient. But at the same time, it comes sometimes to a detriment to my health. And when we think about the technology we've created to connect digitally, this is great. I can connect with hundreds of thousands of people all around the world, but.

I'm not me in Switzerland and you in the U.S. exactly.

But at the same time now a lot of times I'm opting, I'm choosing to engage in people via text instead of getting up and meeting in person. Sometimes Whitney and I might be in the next room and we'll text instead of getting up. And I'm sitting there like, don't. I do podcasts about this problem all the time. Right. So we have to be mindful. Just like we put our bodies in the gym, we have to put our brains and our social skills in the gym as well too. So we have to be more mindful about creating these opportunities to engage with each other in a meaningful way. Because if we don't, these skills will atrophy.

Definitely. I think the point of our discussion is realization and bringing some things out into the light. It's not to go to extremes to say that technology is bad or technology is great. It's to reap the benefits, but also with the awareness of what we can lose by also exploiting some of the benefits. I think that's the point of our conversation here.

Absolutely. And one of the things that you mentioned was really interesting. You were talking about artificial Intelligence. And I know there's a lot of concern out there when it comes to what does it mean for human society and what does our future look like and things like that. And I like the point that you made about that human to human connection still being irreplaceable. Can you go a little bit deeper into that too?

Yes. You said that humans, we are primarily very much connected to the animal world. We are part of nature as well, and we are a collective breed. I would say the humankind is primarily collectively function in society. Isolation, as we've seen in the lockdown period, has not been easy on anyone. Exactly. Because of this lack of social interaction, a lot of people have become depressed in that time, which is proof we need that functioning. We need that validation of our existence as part of nature, but also as part of the collective system. And very often, if we refer only to technology or if we communicate via smiley faces or via acronyms, we cannot have. We narrow the expression of our emotions and our feelings and that becomes limiting and that becomes a habit and that becomes, in the long run, something that can be detrimental as well. I see this also. I'm not saying that I'm not doing this. I see this also with a lot of my friends. Sometimes because of lack of time, we don't even write the full words. We will write acronyms, or we will not even finish the sentence, or we'll just write three letters of the word. And then very, very easy. And it becomes very mechanic very quickly. And then when we have a sit down or we have a dinner, all of a sudden you have to find new ways of communicating. You have to find new words to relate. Relate through words, relate through emotions, relate to communication. The way we say things, what we say, the use of space and the gestures that we have. A lot of those things will not function if they are limited only to the technology space.

This is really interesting. That's something that I didn't consider. The fact that communicating with our smiley faces, our emojis, and the short, brief messages that we're sending, we are, like you said, narrowing the expression of our emotions and feelings. I think that's first of all, really well articulated. And second of all, a challenge that we might miss because we might still understand what it is that we're feeling and what we're trying to say. But because we are out of practice when it comes to interacting with people, we might not even recognize that we have become limited in our ability to express ourselves.

That's exactly what I meant. And that got me thinking about the book by Amy Cuddy presents, in which she mentions studies or research done on Botox, which by definition, Botox injections are done to make people more attractive, look younger, look more beautiful, and so on. Turn back the time. But very often what Botox does is it freezes the facial muscles, so you cannot express your emotions or you cannot show those emotions. And what that does is that the people who see you cannot relate to your emotions. They cannot read you. So it's a little bit like the technology when you cannot read. And in the end, you do not become more attractive, you become more beautiful, perhaps externally. But people are not attracted because they cannot see the path of life. They cannot see the path or the story of your face, the story of your sadness, happiness, of the experiences that you had. And that's exactly the risk, as you said, Kwame, just a moment ago, that we might think we are expressing ourselves, but to the other person, it can be like a frozen Botox face, that they cannot read the emotions behind those acronyms or emojis.

That's such a great point. And I forgot about that Botox study. It's really interesting because it shows how much those micro expressions we have, how much they really matter at a high level. Because when you think about flashing of the eyebrows, your eyebrows going up. Here's some people watching tips for the listeners. So just watch people greet different people. So you might hear somebody say, hey, how you doing? And then their eyebrows go up at the same time. Okay. Genuine, like. Then you might hear the exact same tone, but no eyebrow raise. Hey, how are you doing? Oh, the eyebrows didn't go up. That one was fake. They don't like that person as much. Right. But then once you're able to see that, it can make you feel closer to the person because you understand them on a deeper level. But the Botox freezes the face. But now, going back to the point that you're making about the emojis, okay, there's a smiley face emoji. A million people use the same smiley face emoji. But are we at the same level of happy? Are we experiencing the exact same thing? I mean, there for the laughing a lot, you have the cries, like the tears coming down the face to the side. Okay, which version of happy? Because I might use a different emoji and you might use a different one, but it carries different meanings, and we don't recognize that distinction. So that depth of connection is often lost because we feel obligated to communicate in very short messages. And utilizing those emojis that mean different things to different people, but we don't explore what it really means to each other.

Definitely agree with what you said about taking the temperature or the lack of gradation of the smiley faces, for example. But also you mentioned one very, very important factor, which is time, speed. You know, short, everything has to be instant. It's an instant culture right now. But it doesn't work like this. To build trust between people, to build a bond takes time. There is no overstepping. There is no amount of emojis that you can use to substitute the natural time lapse or the time flow that is needed for people to understand each other, to make mistakes, to argue, to engage in conflict. I like to say that the mark of a good relationship is not how that people don't argue or that people do not have conflicts, but how they actually argue tells a lot about the state of the relationship, of their mutual respect or the communication, or how well they are able to understand each other and so on. So this shortness, which very often it's a benefit in business or the speed can also be an impediment when it comes to building a meaningful relationship.

Definitely. And let's talk about that speed with the time that we have left too, because there might be instances where we recognize, hey, Kasha said I should take some more time, I should develop this relationship. But then the other person, they might say, no, no, no, this needs to be fast. They're trying to be short. How do you deepen the relationship if you're talking to somebody who hasn't listened to this podcast episode and they're trying to zip through all these conversations, zip through the conversations.

My interest would be why? What is time for you? What are you in a hurry for? This is also an interesting conversation because as I said before, where we both agreed that time is a gift. So if you want to breeze through something very quickly, maybe it's not so important as well. Or maybe the interest between the parties are misaligned. It depends on cultures as well. For example, in the Polish culture, the one who limits the time or makes you wait or manages the time is usually in a superior position. That limitation of time or putting a mark on the time of availability is usually a sign of hierarchy of some level. So my question would be, why? Why is speed such an important factor? And I'm trying to think, I'm thinking of the deal making environment now more than the human interactions that very often when deadlines are placed or people say, this is the only time frame that we have the question is why? Is it a tactic or is it a bluff, or is it a power play, or is it something that exists objectively, a limitation of the time? So it's interesting to ask the question why? And to look at time closely as well.

Spoken like a true negotiator.

That one sounded pretty much like a manual negotiation manual. I can go back to being a little bit more freestyle. I think that comes across better.

Oh, no, it's a great response. You're right. Because whenever we're in a conversation and we're. We notice something and we recognize it might be having an impact on the conversation, great negotiators go straightforward and get curious. Hmm. I noticed this. Tell me what it is that I'm seeing. And I think that's a really great question to ask too, for a number of reasons. Because if you just pause for a second and just say, hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want to kind of move through this conversation quickly. Is there some kind of time crunch on your end? It helps in a couple of ways because they might say, actually, yes, there is. I have 15 minutes for this call and whatever it happens to be right. Okay, great. That's really good information for me to know. So I'm not trying to ask them about their kids as they're sweating bullets, hoping that I get off subject. Right. So that's important. But also it might provide them with a bit of a self check too, because maybe they don't mean to rush through the conversation, but then they stop and say, oh, well, Kwame is asking me if I'm in a rush. I might be giving some vibes that show that this isn't very important. Maybe I should slow it down. So either way, it's still beneficial for the conversation and the relationship, I think.

And you know what else? The third thing that it does, it makes the person feel recognized that you actually paid attention to them, that you're not just trying to push your point across, but you actually heard that there is something. Sure, it can be a self check. I really like that perspective. But in order to place a mirror, to look at the man in the mirror, as Michael Jackson said, I like that song, by the way. You have to feel comfortable and you have to feel secure enough to do that. If you're in a defensive mode, if someone makes you feel unrecognized or threatened, you will not look in that mirror. You will engage or channel your energy toward being defensive and protective of your position, of your interests, but you will not be self reflective in the same way.

This is really good. And Kasha, you're showing off why you've been on the podcast now three times. So thank you for this. This is really insightful. I know the listeners got a lot out of this. And before you go, I want to give you an opportun opportunity to shout out the books and how people can get in touch with you and work with you too.

Sure people can find me on LinkedIn and just type in my name. Kasia Kotinska and as I mentioned before, the last book, the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation is a great guide if you're looking for a reference to guide you through the whole process. The strategy, the setup, the implementation, then the execution, but also from a psychological perspective. So not just the strategic part but also the mindset. What are some of the things that you should pay attention to? What are the pitfalls? It's equipped or it's made better by interviews with such names as Agent Gary Nestler and Jack Cambria and a lot of other experts, Robert Cialdini and a lot of interviews with industry experts from all across the globe. You can also check out my other books, Negotiation Booster or Negotiate your Way to Success.

Love it. Kasia, thanks again for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Was a pleasure as always. Thank you for the interesting insights.

Kwame Wait, wait wait wait wait.

Now before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

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Life?

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