Building Trust and Effective Negotiation in Business Partnerships with Joam Alisme

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Joanne, thanks for joining us today.

It's my pleasure, Karmy. Thank you for having me.

Hey man, it's a pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yes. So I am an attorney here in Brooklyn, New York. I've been an attorney for almost 10 years now. My background is in business litigation, meaning I represent businesses, primarily smaller to medium sized businesses and litigation matters like contract disputes. If you have a business and you have dealt with another business over a contract, I can represent you if that matter potentially go to litigation, I can represent you at the before it goes to litigation to try to resolve it to some kind of negotiation. And I can also represent you when the matter goes to court and you have to go in front of a judge and trial and all of that good stuff. Another type of matter that I work on is representing partners and partnership disputes. So if you have a business partner and for some reason the partnership has reached a point where it can only go forward because of disagreements and other partners not cooperating and ending things in an amicable way. You can come to me and I can represent you in trying to find ways to end the partnership either amicably or through the courts, which is always the last option. Try to resolve matters in an amicable way so that both parties can walk away few damage to both their mental states and property as possible. But if we have to go to court, we also represent you our lawsuit on your behalf or we can also represent you in that dispute. And the last area that we focus on are shareholder disputes. Right? So if you're a shareholder of business or corporation and you feel that the board of the corporation is not acting in the corporation's best interest, you feel that the board is engaging in fraudulent behavior, that they're acting on their behalf as opposed to the interest of the shareholders, then you can come to us and we can try to interfere on your behalf by requesting that the board be transparent with its inner workings, requesting documents, and if it's in fact proven that there's inappropriate behavior going on, we can take action on your behalf. So those are the type of matters that we focus on.

Perfect. And, Joanne, let's start this episode off with a public safety announcement here. Hypothetically, let's say I own a business. When should I engage a lawyer?

That's a very good question. Engage an attorney as soon as possible, Right? The sooner the better. So when you have the idea to start the business, that's when you should consult with an attorney, because the attorney will be able to walk into the process of making sure that you have all of the documents in place that you need to be registered in your particular state. The attorney will make sure that you have all the agreements drafted that you need to protect yourself and in future activities. If you have a partner that you go into business with, your attorney will be able to draft a partnership agreement to make sure that your rights are protected and your partner's rights protected as well. The agreement will outline all your responsibilities, your duties, your rights, so that later on, when things get to a point where it could get messy, the agreement will be there to protect both you and your partner. So the sooner you can engage an attorney, the better. The attorney will also help you develop strategies for your business. Right. And put you in contact with people, assist you in your business.

Love it. Yes. Listen. So, listeners, you know, I'm a lawyer, too, and I really wanted to start off there because one of the biggest frustrations is when somebody comes to me, they're way down the line in a business challenge and they're like, hey, can you fix this problem? I'm like, what do you. I'm not a magician. How do you expect me to solve this problem efficiently at this point? If you would have talked to me a few months or maybe even a few years in advance, we could have avoided a lot of this. So the simple rule to follow, if you ask yourself, do I need? Should I talk to a lawyer? The answer is yes. Just to make sure you can get your ducks in a row. So I wanted to make sure we started off there because a lot of people miss it, and that could be one of the biggest strategic mistakes you make when it comes to the business. Negotiations and conflicts that you find yourself in.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think lawyers, we have gotten a bad rap in popular culture, you know, to some extent. And it is unfortunate because I think what we do is it's extremely important. It saved people time, money, and a lot of ways, stress as well, because I worked for a long time in the courts as a court attorney to a judge, and I got to see some business cases up close in litigation. And oftentimes the parties involved were family members who were suing each other, whether it be like a father suing a son or vice versa or daughter, mother. And when the case gets to that point, it gets very acrimonious and very personal and relationships are destroyed. And a lot of times, dispute could have been avoided had an attorney been consulted at the initial stage. So, Kwame, I completely agree with you. The sooner you consult with the attorney, the better. Yeah.

Love it.

Great.

Let's set the stage for the listeners here. We're going to focus this episode on two different things. First, we're going to talk about using negotiation and communication skills to build relationships. And then we're going to talk about using negotiation and conflict resolution skills to resolve conflicts. Once you get to that point in business. And really, this is going to be using your life, Joham, as kind of like a case study for how the holistic approach to communication that you have could be beneficial, not only when it comes to working with clients and having conversations and building trust and building relationships, but also on the flip side, if we get to the point where we have to negotiate a business deal or negotiate a deal in litigation, then those skills still come to the fore. So when we're talking about relationship building as it relates to you more on the entrepreneurial side, because you're a business owner, can you talk a little bit about your approach to building meaningful relationships for entrepreneurial purposes?

Yeah, absolutely. So as an entrepreneur, it's very important for me to reach out to other professionals and build relationships for a number of reasons. Number one is as a small law firm owner, I had to get out there so other professionals can know about me and my firm, what I do. And if they want to refer work to me at some point, they'll be able to refer work to me. There's a saying that people refer work to people that they know and trust. Right. So someone doesn't know you and trust you, they're not going to refer work to you. So that's why it's important for me to get out there and meet people so that they can know Me. Another purpose, meeting people and building relationships is as an attorney, I work with other attorneys. I have cases against other attorneys. And oftentimes when I'm negotiating in a matter, it always helps if I know the attorney on the other side, as opposed to not knowing the attorney. When you know the attorney and you have a relationship with that attorney, you're able to potentially work out a resolution much faster than you would against an attorney that you don't know. So it's very important to build those relationships. And another area that it comes into play is with the judiciary, with judges. I network a lot with judges, get to know them, they get to know me, so that when I front of them in a court, represent my client, I have instant credibility with them because they know me, they know what I'm about, they know my professional character. So that helps as well. And for negotiation purposes, it also helps when you know the judge, because the judge will be able to help you facilitate some kind of resolution of the matter with the other side much faster than they would if they didn't know you.

This is great. This is a strong start. So first, we have three purposes for the communication that you utilize to build relationships. First, we have referrals. Next, we have when you work with or against other attorneys. And then also we have when you find yourself in front of a judge, the judiciary, it builds credibility. So really, this is a little bit of foreshadowing here, but you can see how these negotiations, when you think about it philosophically, there's almost no beginning and no end. So when you think about an attorney you might meet at a networking event, you meet them, you chat, you hit it off. Okay, great. Let's grab coffee. Okay, great. We might do that every year. And then three years later, you find yourself negotiating against them in a case, the case goes a lot smoother because even though they're on the other side, you have that foundational relationship, and then you do the same thing with the judges. We have to recognize that bias is bidirectional. We think about it just in terms of, oh, bias is bad. That's a negative thing. Trust is nothing more than a positive bias. And once you start to build that credibility and trust, when you are in front of a decision maker like a judge, that goes a long way in making you a lot more persuasive and impactful as an advocate, too. So recognizing here that, Joanne, you're playing relationship chess, you're using these meaningful and true, authentic and ethical relationships that you're building to put yourself in a better position professionally to build the business and then serve your clients at a higher level.

Absolutely. It's as an attorney and especially as a law firm owner. It's all about relationships. You cannot operate business or law firm, in my opinion, in a silo. Right. You have to have people around you that you can rely on not only for referrals, but also to give out referrals. Right. So when clients come to me and I resolve an issue for them, oftentimes they need other services. They may need insurance person, they may need a financial advisor, they may need the assistance of a cpa. When I have folks in my Rolodex that I have relationship with that I know what they're about and their professional, professional standing, I'm able to refer my clients to them with the knowledge that my clients will be taken care of. Right. As opposed to just referring my clients to somebody that I don't know. And they may end up being properly taken care of. So having those relationships really is key.

Glad you brought that one up, Joanne. Because we don't often think about the value being the person who gives the referrals, not just receiving the referrals. Because like you said, if we have this trusting relationship and you build a great relationship with the client, then that person will trust you more, which means they'll be more vulnerable with you, and they'll share more about their lives, their personal life and their professional life. And if you have a really robust network now, you can make those connections because you've done the same thing when you're networking and building relationships with other lawyers and other professionals, so you actually get to know what's beyond their LinkedIn page and beyond their website. Is this person a good person? Do I feel comfortable giving this person a referral? And so by having all of these relationships, you gather enough information to be a good referral source to other people, and then we take it to the next step. All right. If I'm referring people to you, it triggers reciprocity, which makes it more likely for you to refer to me, too. And so again, we're seeing this flywheel effect starting to grow where as you deepen your relationships and improve your communication skills, in order to deepen your relationships, there are going to be surprising benefits that will reverberate throughout your career. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question.

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Absolutely. And for me, when I go into relationships, professional relationships or otherwise, I go with the idea that givers gain. Right. First and foremost in my mind is trying to figure out what I can do to make that person's life better or easier. Right. I'm not looking to take anything, get anything from them. I'm just looking to figure out exactly what I can do to make that person's business or life better. That could be a tool, referral, that could be through some advice that I give to them. It could be through a connection that I make between them and another professional. And then when you do that, when you put yourself out there and you go in with the giver's mentality, like you were saying, Kwame, naturally that person is going to want to reciprocate that your efforts, they're going to want to do things for you as well that you asking. So I think that's absolutely correct. Making those connections, going there with the givers game mentality, that selfish mentality that I'm just going to go in there and try to figure out how what I can gain from this person. When you do that relationship becomes very impersonal, becomes fake really. And it's not really something that can last. But when you go in there and you invest time and you try to figure out what you can do to help people, I think those relationships last longer and they are more professional, professionally and personally rewarding.

Bingo. So, right. And let's focus on that mentality too because it's not just about the skillset, it's about the mindset. How do we go into these? So you could listen to this whole episode with me and Joanne showing these skills and you could say, all right, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do this. And you can be very tactical with it and you'll get a modicum of success, but it pales in comparison to the amount of success you'll get if you genuinely care about people and you're just focused on making their lives better. I love how simple that is. How can I make your life better? So you're not saying how can I get more money? How can I extract more value from you? How can I position my law firm? That's not it at all. How can I make your life better? And we're broadening it. It's not just life in terms of your business life. You're saying life in general. Because once you start to know somebody on a deeper level, these little things that might seem almost trivial to you could be life changing for them. So I have this personal problem. Oh, well, I know this therapist. Here's a referral, right. Something little, but you have that network, and you can be really generous, and then eventually it comes back to you. But that is not the ultimate goal. And that's what makes it work.

Yes. And this idea, making people's life better is something that also emphasize in my practice, in regards to my relationship with my clients. In my law firm, we strive to give the clients three times the value of the fees that they pay to us. So when a client comes to me, my mission is to make sure that the client is receiving value, that I'm making their life better, not only just solving their problem and calling a day, but that I'm actually now solving the problem and giving them added value on top of that. Because I think that's something that our clients are entitled to. They're entitled to good service, and they're entitled to an attorney who cares about them, not only within the context of the particular case in the fees that they're paying the attorney, but outside of that. Right. And like you were saying, Kwame, sometimes when a client comes to you with a legal issue, that client may also have a number of other issues that they're trying to resolve. It is your job, as their counsel or as a professional, working with them to figure out exactly what those problems are and how you can assist them in those particular areas. In my firm, when we have a case, because our cases tend to be the litigation cases, they tend to have an end. And at the end of that relationship, the client attorney relationship usually ends. But for us, when that case ends, we have a call with a client and we're trying to find out exactly how the litigation has impacted their lives for long the case has gone on, and we're trying to figure out what other issues are they experiencing. Are they buying a home or the car needs to be repaired? Do they need estate planning? And when we find out what these uses are, we go into our Rolodex and we figure out exactly who's the best person to refer the client to resolve that issue.

Brilliant. And I love that you're expanding your perspective on what that value is. As lawyers, we might just get really focused on the legal side or the financial side. How can I get you three times the value? Okay, what are my fees? How do I multiply that? But when you think about it holistically, we are whole people. So, yeah, we're meant to serve on the legal side, and it'll touch on the finances for sure. But mental health is important. Peace of mind is important. When my clients work with them, I want them to feel safe. When they work with me, I want them to feel a peace of mind that somebody has their back. Right. So once you start to think about what is valuable to them now, you can be a lot more creative about how you deliver that 3x multiplier on those investments.

Absolutely. It really goes to focusing on the person holistically, not just for the particular transaction between you at the moment, but on a more holistic level to figure out exactly who they are, what's important to them, what they're focusing on, what their goals are, what they want to achieve. One of the things that I do when I have a consultation with my clients is to ask them exactly what it is that they're trying to achieve in the case. Right. Because litigation, like I mentioned earlier, it's not a process that people want to go through because it's just not fun process, because it's time consuming, it's costly, and it could be emotionally draining. So as someone, if you got to the point where you feel like you need to go to litigation, we have to figure out exactly what the goal is. What do you want to achieve? Are you trying to get repaid for the contract that was breached, or you try to get that money back? Are you trying to prevent the other party from doing something? And a lot of my cases are. Some of them are partnership disputes. Sometimes one of the partners has locked out the other partner out of the account, stolen money from the business account. So we have to try to stop them from doing that. So we have to figure out exactly what is it you want to do and when we know what your goals are, we are able to take the steps to make sure that we achieve those goals. And I counsel my clients that it's always important to try to find a resolution before going to court. It's always important. Trying to find some kind of negotiated outcome where both sides can walk away and just move forward. Sometimes, if necessary, maintain that business relationship. Right. Because if you can't, maintain the relationship could be beneficial to Both parties. Whereas if you go through a litigation and the matter gets very acrimonious when the case ends, that relationship also ends. And sometimes it's not just a business relationship, it's also the personal relationship. Like I mentioned before, I've seen families broken up over dispute over money. So for that outcome is something that I emphasize my clients to do.

I think this is a perfect time to transition into the second half of the episode where we're talking about the negotiation skills that you utilize in litigation. And this is a great starting point because you start off with the question, what's the goal? A lot of times as lawyers or people in general, we assume that we understand what the problem is. A person presents with a problem, it creates a set of assumptions in our mind. And we say either based on what I've seen before or based on what I would do or feel like in this situation, this is probably what they want to happen. But there is a little bit of embedded arrogance when we just go on our assumptions and we don't check our assumptions too. So I love the fact that we're starting off with that question, what is your goal? So we can advocate for them more effectively. And let's take a little bit of a fun spin on this. So, Joanne, can you describe a situation where a goal of a client that you had was surprising to you?

Yes, I definitely can. So as I mentioned before, I deal with a lot of businesses, primarily small, medium sized businesses and litigation issue. And sometimes there are partnerships who have been or gotten to a point where the partnership is going to be dissolved. And when a client comes to me who is a partner in the business, sometimes their goal can be surprising because they're not just looking to get into money or to prevent the other partner from doing something that's harming the business. They're just looking to get some kind of revenge or they're sticking to almost like they want to have their justice be rectified by the court system. And a lot of times I have to counsel clients that if you're looking for revenge, you're not going to find that in the justice system. If you're looking for justice, you may find it, but you may not. The court system sometimes is not really about who's right. It's really about who can prove that whatever legal theory that they're asserting is the one that the judge should go with. So I always counsel clients that if you're looking for those two things, revenge and justice, to be very mindful that you may not get them, but if you're looking for money in a business dispute, that I can almost certainly help you with. If you're looking to get some kind of compensation for your rights that have been violated, that can help you with justice and for revenge. Those two things are rare in our system.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because for a number of reasons. First, I need to know what it is that you want me to do. Because if it's a situation where somebody wants revenge, they might push you to do things that we can talk about. The ethics, I think that's the obvious one, but also the strategy too, because you might say as a lawyer, there's a more efficient and practical way to approach this, but they want to go about it in the most painful and embarrassing way that seems illogical and irrational until you realize that based on their goal of hurting the other side, that is actually the most logical approach. It's probably not the nice thing to do, but at least we understand where it's coming from. And so it allows you to set firm boundaries up front. Oh, since I know that it seems like you want to hurt this person, I want to let you know this is what a realistic expectation is going forward. Because you might do a perfect job per what the law says and make the right strategic legal decisions in the negotiation and during the litigation process. But they might, might still feel dissatisfied because their goal was different than just solving their financial or legal problems. And so by clarifying that and setting expectations and setting firm boundaries when appropriate now it makes it more likely that you can be aligned going forward. Or it might be a decision point where you say, I might not be the lawyer for you, but I can get you in touch with somebody who could help.

Yeah, absolutely. It's very important, like you said, to be clear on what you're trying to achieve and sometimes hurting the other party and getting something, a result that is efficient and time saving or not mutually exclusive. Right. You can get a result that can achieve both, but you just have to make sure that you're going about it the right way. And also you have to be open to listening to your attorney. Right. To getting counsel. A lot of clients, they come to me this idea that they're the one that's going to solve the issue, end up in a situation where I had to ask them, then why did you come to me? Right. If you didn't want to actually listen to my counsel and trying to work collaboratively to which is a solution, you didn't need to come to me. Right. So that's Very important. I have experience. I've been doing this for quite a while. I worked in the courts. I've seen the issues. I know what arguments in a particular case are going to fly, what arguments are not going to fly. Just as you, Kwame, in your field have seen different scenarios. And so we know how to approach certain matters. But you have to be open to that advice. And if you listen to us, sometimes you can get both the results you want in terms of monetary reward, but you can also, if you want to hurt the other person's purse, you can also achieve that as well.

Definitely. And this outlines one of the most overlooked parts of these types of tough negotiations for lawyers, because from the outside looking in, it seems like the tough negotiations are with opposing counsel. And of course, we do have those tough negotiations with opposing counsel. That's part of the job. But first we have to negotiate with our client. We have to figure out what their goals are. And then we might need to have that negotiation to persuade them to shift their perspective and perhaps adopt more realistic or practical goals. And then when it comes to the strategy, we are, the people who went to law school, passed the bar exam, have been practicing for years, but at the end of the day, we work for them, and we can't do anything without their authorization. So even though we might know specifically what their appropriate strategy might be, we still need to get the green light from the client. And that's a tough conversation on its own.

It can be. And that's why it's important for us as attorneys to establish that credibility with your client early on in the process. Right. To make sure that. To have a clear understanding where we come from, what our processes are, what we want to help them achieve in the particular case so that we get to a point where we have to go to them and advocate a particular idea or position, they're more open to receiving that advice. And I don't mean to go back to our first topic of getting to know people, but that's kind of relates to negotiation as well, because the more that you get to know people, the more that you get to understand what makes a person do certain things, what makes them tick, what makes them happy. It really helps you, not only with opposing counsel, both your client and also the more you invest in that relationship by making sure that you're trustworthy, that by making sure that the client understands your character, by making sure that you present as being professional, the more credibility that you have with your client, and the more you'll be able to help the negotiation Move in a constructive way.

I love this because this is the sticking to the fundamentals of relationship building and why it's so critically important for the foundation of the negotiation. We can make these difficult conversations easier just by laying a strong relationship foundation with the client. Let's take two different scenarios. So I say one thing to this client, and I don't have that foundation of trust and credibility. And then I say the exact same thing to the client. But I do. It works in one situation when I have the credibility in the relationship, and it doesn't with the other one just because they don't trust me as much. They're at a heightened emotional state. They're more likely to be skeptical and critical. But if they already trust you, then you could win this negotiation with your client months in advance just by treating them with respect and caring about them and taking the time to learn about them and establishing that relationship. So this is a critical strategic element that we often overlook because we're so focused on just being good lawyers, knowing the law and negotiating well with opposing counsel.

Right. And you can be a good lawyer and not have good people skills. And I think without the people skills, that can serve as a handicap and especially when it comes to your clients. One of the things that I do when I first check on a client, I make sure that I send them client a bill of rights, which outlines the rights that they have in relation to their relationship with me. It states clearly that I have to treat them with respect, just as you have to treat me with respect. It states that I have to return their phone calls and emails in a timely manner. It outlines what the relationship's going to be. And I also give them a copy of my firm's policies that clearly outlines how my firm interacts with the client, what expectations are so that they know what the boundaries of the relationship is. And like you were saying, Kwame, that serves as the foundation that we can then build on later on so that when we get to the hard stuff of negotiation of numbers, how much money should be accepted, what offers should be made, because I have that foundation of credibility, like you were saying, I'm able to work with the client in more efficient way to potentially resolve the matter.

I love it. I'm glad that we started at that point because it's so easy to overlook it. And now when you talk about the relationship that you have with opposing counsel, there's a really interesting tension because there are going to be times where we don't know the other side at all. And there are going to be times where we do know the other side, we might be friends with it, with the other side. And I think that can be almost jarring for our clients. I'm going to war. You're my soldier. And now you are, bro, hugging the soldier on the other side. Whose side are you on? So we understand that it's better to have a good relationship with the other side, but at the same time, we have to recognize that it might be hard for our clients to really appreciate that, especially when they're in a tough position. And so how do you treat your client with respect while still having a strong relationship with the other side, striking that balance?

Yeah, absolutely. So the bar in New York, and I'm sure it's for you as well, in Ohio, the bar, it's quite small. It's a small community. And because of the nature of legal practice, you end up going to a lot of events. You may be involved with your local bar association. And so attorneys run into each other, they see each other. And I was saying earlier, I do a lot of networking. I'm involved in different organizations. And so I meet a lot of attorneys. I see them in court all the time. If you go to court, you'll see the litigators constantly. And so by nature of that, you build a relationship with them and you get to know them. Now, respect your question about how do I treat our relationship with the attorneys in regards to respecting my client. So I am bound by the rules of professional conduct to serve my clients and best interests. That's something I'm bound to as an attorney. So when a client's retaining me, my sole goal in the life of the case is to make sure that. So as I was saying, my sole goal is to make sure that I represent their best interests, regardless of what my relationship with opposing counsel may be. I am bound by professional rules of. Of New York State to make sure that I do that. So I try to do that regardless of that relationship with the other side. Now, what benefits of having a good relationship or the attorney comes into play is when you negotiate it. It's easier to negotiate with somebody that you as opposed to somebody that you don't know when you're trying to reach an outcome. But if we get to a point where we cannot reach an outcome that's beneficial, both parties, then we're going to go to litigation, and that's perfectly fine. Once you get to that point, it's no longer my friend on the other side, it's opposing counsel. And that's what it's going to be. And so I'm able to make that separation between the personal relationship and the professional relationship, which is governed by the rules of Professional conduct of New York, definitely.

And I think it's really good to have that clarity both within yourself, but also articulated to the client, too. So in your mind, you know, okay, I'm friends with this person, that my relationship with opposing counsel doesn't change unless they do something unethical to change it in this process, of course, but the relationship doesn't change. But I also recognize that right now I'm ethically bound to do a job for my client. And so now this. I know when to put the friendship aside and then focus on the job and then flex and go back and forth between the two. And then what I've done in the past is I've explained that to the client and say, hey, listen, I work for you. And so I'm always negotiating on your behalf. You might see some warm interactions between me and opposing counsel, but I want you to know this is because I had a relationship with them in the past. That actually makes it easier during the negotiation process. But I'm always focused on you and getting your goals accomplished. And just articulating that helps to avoid any misunderstandings going forward. But it also helps me because I can say to myself, all right, I know which version of Kwame, which are all authentic. Kwame the lawyer, Kwame the negotiator, they're all the same. It's all me. But it has a different focus and a different tone attached to it. And that clarity can help. And when you're thinking about your litigations, once you get to that point, I think this would be helpful to paint a picture to the audience. What percentage of your cases end up settling before actually being completed in trial?

Yeah, that's a good question. And that's something that the public doesn't know. Right? In litigation, in business litigation, around 98%, if not more, of the cases settle before trial. So negotiation is built in into that process. Because like I was saying, going through a trial, it's very costly, it's time consuming, and it's not guaranteed that you're going to get an outcome that's in your favor. And so that's why cases settle before we get to that point. And judges are aware of that as well, because in a lot of cases tried in front of a judge, what's called a bench trial, as opposed to a trial by jury, we have a jury of your peers making determination. So those cases are usually tried by judges. And the judges are trained to resolve matters. They're trying to resolve matters, and they are predisposed to trying to resolve dispute. In business litigation cases, it's often money that's involved. So it's a lot easier to resolve these matters if the parties can agree on the number. So the majority of the cases that I deal with settle before we go to trial.

Yeah, I think it could be really shocking to people, and even for me, because I know this is still wild to think about, because even though we call it litigation and there is that process of litigation and everything, it's always going alongside in many cases with the negotiation process as well. And so you're constantly positioning yourself throughout the litigation process to achieve a better settlement in the majority of these situations. So I think it's important for the clients to know that going in, but also for us as lawyers to make sure that we keep that in mind, too. We have to, as much as possible, maintain a solid working relationship with opposing counsel. Because at the end of the day, if we do settle, which statistically most likely we will, some level of relationship foundation is going to make that process a lot more efficient.

Yes, absolutely. And also having that relationship with opposing counsel is helpful in not only trying to resolve the matter, but also opposing counsel, as an attorney, sometimes serve as a referral source to you. I've gotten cases from attorneys I've dealt with in the past, and they were so appreciative about how fervently and how effectively I represented my client that they themselves referred someone to me because they knew that if that person retained me, I'd be able to effectively represent them. So having those relationships and being professional and providing value to your client, you know, the three times value to your client is something that helps you not only in the case at hand, but also in the future, not only the client referring cases to you, opposing counsel referring cases to you. It works in tandem that way.

I love this. This is great. And listen, before you go, I want to wrap up with a quick conversation on leverage and the utilization of leverage in these types of litigation disputes. And so first, let's talk about how you would define or describe leverage in this context and then how you go about using it in your negotiations, too.

Yes. So leverage is something that gives you a leg up, to use a common term. It gives you a leg up in the negotiation because the party at the other side is concerned that whatever you have that gives you a leg up is going to work to their detriment. And so that gives them an incentive to try to settle matter as opposed to not. That's. I would define leverage in my view and in litigation, leverage can be a lot of different things. A leverage can be filing a lawsuit. Most people don't want to have to answer a lawsuit because like I was saying, because it's costly, it's time consuming. So the potential to file a lawsuit can be leveraged. Another thing could be filing some kind of restraining order to prevent the party to have access to certain things like bank accounts, have access to companies email accounts or social media accounts. Those things can serve as leverage. Another thing that can serve as leverage once you get into the litigation process, or what's called discovery can serve as leverage. Discovery means you get access to the other side's documents, including communications, any sensitive information that they have, any evidence of wrongdoing that they have, get access to that, you can use it in the case. And so that can serve as leverage as well. And the prospect of going to trial, that can serve as leverage on either party because trial can be a very difficult process because just the nature of it is very anxiety inducing process, having to go to trial. So those things can serve as leverage.

This is great. I really love this and I like your definition. Leverage gives you a leg up in your negotiation. Yeah, Leverage is a force that you can use to compel the other side to give up concessions. The more leverage you have, the more you can get, the less you have, the less power you have and the more you're going to have to give. And so you want to always approach these negotiations in where you are maximizing leverage for yourself and minimizing leverage for the other side. And sometimes that requires you to take action in these cases. So filing a lawsuit, essentially we move from us trying to work things out to saying, I'm going to have the court help us to work things out. Now you're going to have to deal with that, you're going to have to respond. That can give you leverage. Especially if they don't want to go to trial. Filing a restraining order, you're restricting them from engaging in certain behaviors by limiting the things they can do. You're giving yourself leverage and taking leverage away from them. Discovery leverage can come from information. The more information I get, the more leverage I have because then I could use that information in either the negotiation, but also the trial. And the fear of me using that information in the trial is what gives me leverage during the negotiation and then the prospect of trial. We cannot forget the power of fear. And it's not that we're doing this because we are hurtful people who want to make people scared. It's just recognizing that sometimes we have to take action, and then fear will be a byproduct of the action that we take in order to meet our needs and solve our problems. And people don't like to litigate. Some litigators don't even like to litigate. And so, listeners, think about your day, think about your week, think about your month. I know you're probably thinking, I'm busy. Imagine how busy you'll be if there is like a this force coming at you and you have these dates on the calendar and you know, you have no choice but to address it like that. Fear of litigation, it's heavy. That matters. And the more comfortable somebody is in the process, the more leverage they have, because they're okay with staying in the process. Whereas the person who is fearful of the process is going to be trying to find ways out. And sometimes that's through giving up concessions in the negotiation. So I love this recitation of leverage. It's something that honestly, I think has fallen out of favor in negotiation discussions. But just because it's fallen out of favor of people willing to talk about it doesn't mean that leverage has lost its efficacy. And so we always have to keep this in mind as we go throughout our negotiations.

And I think that was good kind of rundown of what leverage is. And it's very helpful. And that's why most cases settle, because one party has more leverage than the other. And the other party, if they have a good attorney, is going to advise them to settle. Sometimes the other side doesn't have a good attorney, and you end up going to trial, and you end up losing that trial, and you end up having to pay more money not only to the other party, but attorney's fees. So it's very important to have good, experienced attorneys on your side, like Kwame and myself, been through different scenarios in these matters and kind of can advise you appropriately.

I love this, Joanne. I appreciate this, my friend. This was an awesome breakdown. And before you go, I want to make sure that you can shout out your firm and what the best way to get in touch with you would be.

Absolutely. And Kwame, thank you so much for having me today. This is a really great podcast with platform. I really appreciate your time. So my law firm is the List Miller llc. We are based in Brooklyn, New York, and what we do is we help small business owners fight for what stairs in court. And if you retain us, if you have A litigation matter. Business litigation matter. We'll advise you appropriately. We'll try to reach a potential settlement like we've been discussing here today, that's beneficial for you. But if we can't settle, we are prepared to go to trial to make sure that your rights are protected. So, again, a list of Law LLC based in Brooklyn, New York. And we'll help you fight with what's yours. Thank you.

Appreciate it, brother. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, my man. Thanks. You too. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Now, before you sign off, I have something to tell you that I've never told you before.

Just kidding.

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I'll catch you later.