Busting Myths About Salary Negotiations with Kelli Thompson

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Kelly, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

It's my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So I'm Kelly Thompson. I'm a women's leadership coach, I'm an author, I'm a speaker, and I'm on a mission to help women advance the rooms where decisions are made. And so I've done that by writing a book. It's called Closing the Confidence Gap. I work with women one on one in private coaching to help them create careers they love and lead with more confidence. I have some group programs and on the side I go into organizations and do some women's leadership training. And I also dabble around with the Enneagram a little bit and do some Enneagram training and organizations as well for. For team building. So that's what I do when I'm working and when I'm not working, I am married to my husband Jason, and I have a teenager. So that's the rest of how my day is spent.

Oh, this is great. And listeners, I know if you've been listening to this show a lot. You know, in my mind, there's so many different angles we could go down. We could talk about the Enneagram. We could talk about negotiating with family, your kids, those type of things. We could bond over the fact that we both have the word confidence in our book titles. All of these things, so many different places. But today, we're going to talk about how to. To talk about money. Something that's important but people really struggle with. And so, Kelly, when I asked you, hey, what is really energizing you? That was the first thing that came to mind. Why is that so important to you?

You know, it's so important to me. And I just want to start, I think, with the story. You know, when I was little, I remember the only thing I ever wanted to be growing up was a meteorologist. I watched the news. I loved the weather. I love standing outside. I'm from Nebraska, so I had a lot of opportunities to do. And I remember I was also a curious kid who also asked my parents lots of inappropriate questions, like, how much money do you make? You know, what do you make at work? What about your bills? Why is my baby sister so much younger than me? I mean, you know, it was endless. And I always remember my mom telling me, she said, kelly, it's not polite to talk about money, and you should never ask people what they make. And I don't think I'm the only person that kind of heard that message around money. And so I recognized from an early age I had this weird, like, contrast of I wanted to be a meteorologist, and the weather is the easiest, most safest thing to talk about. But money was really fascinating to me. But I'm like, but money we can't talk about. Like, what if money was as easy to talk about as the weather? And so, you know, actually, I didn't become a meteorologist. I actually went to college and went into banking because money fascinated me. I remember, actually later on in my mom's career, she actually became a financial advisor. And so even her stance about talking about money change. She came home one day with, like, the. This little paper slider tool. And it showed you if you invested so many dollars per month, this is how much money you would have, you know, in 30, 40, 50 years. And my mind was blown. I was like, whoa, I've never seen this before. And so I remember going into corporate America and going into banking. Like, just the whole concept of money was fascinating to me. And I eventually found myself in human resources roles. And so then I was on the other side of money. You know, I'm offering jobs to individuals. We're talking about money. Some of them are negotiating, some them weren't. You know, we're looking at, you know, what's the range for what roles get paid. I remember bringing people on to our organization and I would see offer letters and I'm like, oh, all these new people we're bringing in are getting paid more than the existing people at our company. And so I remember just this conversation around money just became so fascinating to me because as an HR person, I was talking then about money all day long, negotiating, being on the other end of that. But then as I kind of progressed in my career, I had to take my own advice and, and, you know, learn how to negotiate as well. And I think the reason why I became so fascinated by it is because I noticed there was a gap. You know, men would come into roles and they would always negotiate. And when they did negotiate, they would negotiate for much more than when what women did. I noticed that in their job applications, they always, not always typically listed a higher starting salary than maybe what their female counterparts were listing. And so it just became really fascinating to me as I was watching, like, gosh, why does it seem so easy for men to talk about money? And as an HR person and a leader and a coach, I'm having so many coaching conversations with women about asking for simply what they deserve. And so that was probably a very long answer to just this fascination with money kind of started at a young age, hearing messages, oh, we shouldn't talk about money. To really starting to actually learn more how money worked and just becoming fascinated with how disparate it is between gender. And I've seen it with my own eyes.

Yes, no, this is really helpful. That background is really helpful. And it's important because money is an important thing in our lives. We can't avoid it. Right. And so I think there's that temptation where we say, all right, message of the podcast, have those conversations about money, but that's not where we're going to stop it. We have to go deeper. And so I want to kind of foreshadow what my follow up question will be like, because I'm going to talk about the gender dynamics in the follow up question, but I want to start in general. And you touched on this. What is it about that conversation about money that makes it so scary and touchy and sensitive for people?

Yeah. So I'll just tell you things that I've heard and that I felt when I was an HR person. I spent a good majority of my time just talking about salary negotiation. Right? That's what you do. You talk to the HR person when you get a job. And I just heard so many things as an HR person, and I hear it today as a coach from women. Things like, I shouldn't have to ask. Oh, gosh, I don't want to look pushy. I don't want to come across as greedy. I don't want to be rude. I should just be grateful that they offered this. I also hear things like, well, you know what? The offer is higher than what I currently make, so would it be. Would it be bad to negotiate because I'm already getting a raise? I also hear things like, you know, I didn't meet all of the qualifications that were listed on the job, so maybe I. I shouldn't ask for as much as I think I should. You know, they justify, you know, the reasons why they shouldn't ask. And so those messages came somewhere. And I think sometimes the reason we don't ask is one, maybe we never had someone in our lives sitting down and talking with us and having that conversation about talking about money. You know, maybe in, you know, everybody's upbringing was different. However, there are just some norms that typically men have been more comfortable talking about money. There's research that shows that they talk more about money with friends than women do. And so, you know, it's just some of the messages that women have heard talking about money is, you don't need to worry about that. You know, your partner will handle it. You know, don't be pushy. Just be grateful. And I think sometimes there's just been some gender differences that we've heard in talking about money. And those gender differences have perpetuated themselves in the workplace in the form of the gender pay gap, where because men are asking for more and negotiating and oftentimes paid more, they. They do make more than women. So, you know, I think it's. It's really helpful for each of us to sit back and reflect, you know, what. What have I believed about money? And is that keeping me from negotiating for what I deserve or asking for what I deserve or even having a simple conversation about it in the first place?

This is great. And so I'm going to summarize what you said, but I'm going to try my best to summarize it with my very, very nerdy psychology lens. Tell me if this resonates so when you said, first people think that they shouldn't have to ask for more, that to me, Sounds a bit like a cognitive distortion where they have a belief of how the world should be, but not taking into account the way that the world actually is. And they haven't updated that belief. And so that cognitive distortion is causing emotional distress and that distress is holding them back from actually having the conversation. And then the concern about the perception of others. So I don't want them to think I'm rude or selfish, something like that. And a lot of times it is kind of us projecting our insecurities into the minds of others that might not be true, but we believe it to be true. So it holds us back. There is the moral and ethical concern, hey, well, I'm already making enough. I'm comfortable, I'm taken care of, and there are people in the world who don't have anything. So I should be grateful. Should I do this? Is it wrong for me to ask for more just morally and then not qualified? I saw a study where men are more willing to or more likely to apply for a job when they're not qualified, but women feel like they need to meet or exceed the qualifications in order to apply. And so that concern of not being qualified can kind of be like a bit of an insecurity and a self fulfilling prophecy that holds us back. And so that was my attempt at like a psychological summary. What do you think?

Oh, I love it, I love it. And I'm gonna like go back and listen to this so I can write all those down to help explain them to my clients. Right. And I think that just normalizes it. I love how you actually bucketed it because I think sometimes when we can just normalize these concerns that this is just part of the human condition. I think even when you were saying that, I took a deeper breath. I'm like, oh, this is just a normal psychological thing that people deal with. And we just got to know what bucket we're in and when we can identify that bucket, I think it just helps kind of put a name to it. And when we can just notice and normalize and name some things, at least for me, I'm speaking for myself. I feel like it frees me up to take action because I feel so paralyzed by it. I've given it a name, so I love it.

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Yeah, it's helpful because when you have a label, when you have a name, then you actually have a target. I think otherwise, you can kind of look at yourself and say, I'm broken, I'm messed up. I'm the problem. And then that can lead to shame. And then shame causes us to pull back. And so we're not engaging in the difficult conversation and we're not even really wrestling with it internally because it's such a shameful thing. We don't feel comfortable even exploring it. So, yeah, that normalization, that's important because then when you realize, oh, this is just common psychology, I could. I'm not.

I'm just human.

Yeah, dang it. I'm part of the human condition.

Right, Exactly. It makes it a lot more approachable. This is good. Okay, so when you think about your, your clients that you've worked with, let's say there's somebody who checks all of those boxes. I shouldn't have to do this. I don't want people to think poorly of me, those type of things. And they say, kelly, help me. What are the internal changes that they need to make in order to feel more comfortable and confident talking about money.

Yeah, so we really start with internal work. And so I'm glad we're talking about the psychology of it. So when I have a client who comes to me and says, oh, gosh, I just don't think I'm qualified to ask for this salary range, or, you know what, I think I should, we often start and say, okay, let's just kind of unpack that a little bit. Tell me why you don't feel qualified. I even ask them, like, when you think about the thought of, like, not feeling qualified, where do you feel that in your body? And sometimes they tell me, oh, I feel my stomach, I feel sick, I feel contracted. And that can be a big clue for them energetically that what they're feeling actually really is in alignment with their truth. It's not a way that we want to move forward. And so sometimes I just ask them just to flip it. I just say, you know what, let's just explore the opposite for a moment. I want you to tell me at least three or four reasons why you are qualified. And, you know, luckily, if they're in the job search process, if they kind of get that. That blank look on their face, I'm like, well, let's pull out your resume, shall we? And, you know, even just, you know, having that evidence of, like, well, I launched this big project. I saved my organization $3 million. I, you know, funded this, you know, big program, and now the company's more successful. And so I'm like, so it sounds to me like there's actually quite a bit of evidence that you are qualified. And lots of times when we can kind of look at that evidence, they're like, oh, yeah, the opposite is just as true. You know, my brain thinks I'm not qualified. That doesn't feel good. And when I don't feel good, I don't take action. But here's all this evidence. Yeah, I actually am qualified. So if you're listening and you're like, gosh, that's me, I would really encourage you to think about what are three to four reasons why you are qualified. Think about things that you've done in your career that you would be proud of telling someone, and then really go in and be like, well, how does that feel in your body? A lot of times when I'm talking with them, they're like, oh, well, I feel light. I feel excited. Like, this feels good, right? And it's okay. Well, if you're feeling like you have this evidence, it feels good in your body, it feels in alignment. You know, what might be the next right action you can take? Knowing that you are believing that you are qualified. Like, well, I'm going to ask for what I'm worth. And I'm like, that sounds great. And then we can get into more scripting that. And what does that actually sound like?

Oh, so much. So much to talk about here. So first, I want to talk about the IKEA effect. And so what they found is that people who buy furniture from Ikea, because they have to build it, they feel a greater emotional attachment to it. And I think about it from the context of difficult conversations. Collaboration builds commitment. So the more involved in the process they are, the more bought in they are. Because what I didn't hear was you stood up on a chair and wagged your finger and said, you need to believe in yourself and do this, do this. And they're like, okay, Kelly, jeez, I'll do it. Right. No, you. You had them argue it for you, Right? You tell me why you're qualified. And so when they feel part of the process, they contributed to the conversation. They're more bought in. So then when you ask, what do you think you should do? You're not telling them what to do. You're having them tell themselves. It makes it more likely for them to do it, and then do it confidently. So I think that's really, really smart, and I think that's something that we all could incorporate in our difficult conversations as well. Just, just ask somebody to say, hypothetically, what if the opposite was true? How would you go about arguing that? I think that's, that's very, very, very powerful. And I love the fact that we're using evidence and it's objective. So it's not just like random motivation and getting people hyped up. Because if you get people hyped up, it. It is a very, very powerful but very fleeting energy source. And so you feel, really think about a conference. It's like, hey, I went to this motivational conference. This is great. I'm going to conquer the world. And then seven, seven days later, you're like, man, I'm of these potato chips on this couch, because I'm not feeling it anymore. So I love this approach. It's so powerful.

Thank you. And, you know, I love, you know, I'm big on evidence, and a lot of places where I want them to use evidence as well is to find the data on the salary ranges. You know, I mean, we are so lucky today versus when I was on the other side of HR back in 2008, 2009, that salary ranges are becoming more published. You know, I mean, you can go to LinkedIn and just look at some jobs, right? And a lot of those jobs now have salary ranges, which is amazing. You can go to Glassdoor, you can go to salary.com, payscale.com. there's even a company that looks at ranges for small companies. It's called opencomp.com the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So when I talk about bringing data and bringing evidence, it's not just looking at the actual things we've done in our career, but let's just go see what the data says about your pay range. Right? And what are people actually getting paid in the market? Because I think sometimes that can also open our eyes to say, oh, gosh, you know what? I. I had no idea that this was the actual salary range for this job. And so that way we're making educated recommendations and, you know, really thinking about what we deserve to be paid based on the actual data and not just, you know, I think this number kind of sounds good, you know, because that just doesn't land well in a negotiation if you're just kind of throwing things against the wall.

No, not at all.

Because I want. It is not persuasive.

I know. I will tell you, as an HR leader, I've had that. People say, well, I just want to make that. And I'm like, well, you know, unfortunately, that is quite above the range of what is paid anywhere for this role. But I appreciate your desires.

Yes. Okay, Kelly, let me ask you a question. This. Approximately how many of these negotiations did you do as, like, as an HR leader when people were negotiating salary with you?

Oh, hundreds. I mean, I'm trying to think of all the roles I filled over the course of the years as a HR person and a hiring manager. I mean, hundreds. Maybe in the low hundreds, we'll just say hundreds.

Yes, yes. So this is great. Okay, now, how many times did the person who was negotiating their salary negotiate so poorly that you pulled the offer?

Ooh, okay. I can think of one instance. They negotiated poorly. There were some that just said, well, I feel like I should make that much. And when we did bring them down to reality, there were some things that were worked out. But I remember one case that has always stuck out with me, that this individual stated a number that they wanted. And this individual's reasoning was that they wanted their partner to be able to stay home. And in order for their partner to stay home, they needed to make that amount of money because that was the lifestyle they wanted. And it was so far out of range. I mean, we just couldn't. Like, it just wasn't even in the data points, and we just couldn't get to. We're like, well, you know what? This is our best offer. You know, this is what is being paid market for this role. And so this is our final and best offer. And this individual just wouldn't take it. And so, unfortunately, we couldn't hire that individual, but they had an ideal of a lifestyle they wanted to create. And we just had some data and a budget to work with that we thought was very fair, but we just couldn't make it work. And so ultimately we hired someone else.

Okay, so. And correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm getting excited, Kelly. So it's sounding like you've never said, I am so offended by this person asking for more money that I'm pulling the offer. You referenced a time where somebody. You went back and forth, and then the number wasn't. The offer wasn't accepted. And then you went with somebody else but you. So you've never pulled an offer.

Never pulled an offer, yeah, because at the end of the day, I guess I look at it as. It's two individuals coming with a choice. As a person who is extending an offer, I have, you know, an amount I can give you. This is my best and final. And so then it's up to you on if you're going to accept that or not. But I've never had somebody be so disrespectful or something where we've had to pull an offer. But, yeah, it's happened where, you know, they were demanding way higher, and I'm sorry, but this is our best and final offer. So it's up to you on if you want that or not.

Okay. Now, when you think about the women that you've worked with, with, how many of them have expressed a fear and said, kelly, I'm afraid of negotiating because I think they'll pull the offer.

Oh, so many. I love where this is going. Okay. So, yes, like, when I talk with women, more often than not, a big concern that comes up is this. In fact, I'm talking to a client right now. Okay, so what if I go and tell this company that this is what I make, and then they just want to stop talking to me And I'm like, okay, here. Here's the thing. You know what? In the interview process, let's just normalize the fact that you're probably going to go and you're going to apply to some jobs that just aren't in your salary range, and that's okay. It's okay. It just means that you're probably not finding the right level of job, the right kind of job. Like, it's as one of your guests said it was. It was beautiful. Is like, let's not take it personally, but I'm going to make it personal in terms of, you know, finding the right thing for me. But, yeah, sometimes they do fear, like, well, what if I negotiate and then they pull the offer? In my experience as a coach and I've helped hundreds of women through salary negotiations, I have never heard where they've gone to negotiate and then the offer was pulled. Now have I heard where they've gone to negotiate or they're in the negotiation process and they can't get that exact number. Yeah. And the employer says, gosh, this is as high as we can go. Thank you for asking. And they either take the job or they don't. But I never been on the other end of it with a client where they've been, you know, respectfully and tactfully and thoughtfully negotiating, where somebody says, well, we're just going to pull the offer. I haven't seen it. Has it happened? Probably, but I haven't seen it.

Yes. Oh, this is great, Kelly. So this reminds me of one of my favorite acronyms for fear False evidence Appearing real. Right. And so it is a fear that holds us back, but when you just look at its system statistically, it is unlikely to really manifest itself in a meaningful way. Now, that doesn't mean that every negotiation is going to go exactly how you want, but it's like I say on the podcast all the time, negotiation isn't the art of deal making. It's the art of deal discovery. I'm coming to this conversation to chat with you to see whether or not there's a deal to be made. Sometimes that number just does not match. And I think when people have that fear of negotiation and they say, well, I don't want to give that number because I'm afraid they'll. They'll say no. They'll get a friend date or things like that, or maybe the negotiation won't be successful. Good, because that's a deal that shouldn't have been made, number one. And you get an opportunity to practice. So when you do negotiate with the job that is for you, you'll be more skilled and more confident, too. So it's a win. Win.

Oh, 100%. And that's exactly what I tell my clients. I'm like, job interviewing is a lot like dating. Like, it's just not that different. Right. You just sometimes have to go on a lot of dates and have a lot of conversations before you find the right one. And I think there's two things that are really important to remember here. One, I am always encouraging my clients to negotiate in alignment with their values. So showing up, getting curious, making requests, having conversations in a way that feels aligned to them so that no matter what happens, whether they reach a deal or we don't reach a deal, I walk away from that interaction feeling good because I showed up in a way that honors myself. And then on the other end of that, like, I always remind folks, I'm like, listen, like, I've been on the other end of hundreds of these conversations. For us as HR people, talking about money is like talking about the weather. All day long. I get on the phone, I'm interviewing, how much are you making? What's your current salary? Like, making offers? Like, you know, I remember working at A bank and being a bank teller and opening my cash drawer and seeing all the money. And the first time you see all that money, you're like, whoa. You know? But then after a while, it's literally just paper. And so I really just want to normalize this for folks. That one, yes. You know, negotiate in alignment with your values. But remember, on the other end is an individual who literally talks about money all day long. And for them, this is just business.

Right?

This is just. It's just the weather. And so I think sometimes when we can normalize that, like me on the other end, I expected people to negotiate. I expected people to ask. I expected, like, I was ready to talk about money. So just know that HR folks are ready to talk about money. So don't let us down.

This is great, Kelly. I appreciate this. This is great.

If I did not own the company.

It encourages me to negotiate my own salary. I hope everybody else listening to this episode says, you know what, I'm going to go out and get that money. I'm going to make Kelly proud. And let's say somebody's saying, listen, I want to get that money, but I need some confidence. Maybe I need some coaching. What is the best way for them to reach you? Reach you?

Yeah. The best way to find me is my website, kellyraythompson.com I'm Kelly with an I, an R, A, E. On my website, under the downloads tab, I actually have a free salary negotiation guide that has tips, it has scripts, which everybody loves a script, so they know what to say to make it their own. And then, of course, I love to hang out at. On LinkedIn. And so I'm LinkedIn forward slash, Kellyray Thompson, and I'm on Instagram @kellyray Thompson as well.

Awesome listeners. We will have links to all of those in the description of this episode. Kelly, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

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I'll catch you later.