Catalyzing Change from Dialogue to Action: Kwame Christian at the Equity & Inclusion Conference

Hello my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. We with over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations, and our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

My name is Patrisse Blakemore. I'm the Senior Vice President of Equity and Inclusion here at gcp. I have the pleasure and the honor to interview two amazing experts around DEI and negotiation and I want to give you a brief biography of both. And I'd like to start with Kwame Christian. And I know he has some fans in this room because I've had several people come up and say, but is he going to be in person? The answer is yes and thank you. Kwame Christian is a best selling author, business lawyer and CEO of the American Negotiate Institute. Also known as A ni, Kwame has released several books including how to have difficult Conversations about Race and his bestseller Finding Confidence in Conflict, how to Negotiate Anything and live your best life. He is a regular contributor for Forbes and hosts the number one negotiation podcast in the world, Negotiate Anything and it has over 5 million downloads worldwide. Under Kwame's leadership, A&I coaches and trains clients including Fortune 500 companies on applying the fundamentals of negotiation to corporate success. So thank you for being here, Kwame.

Thank you.

I also have the pleasure of introducing my friend Selena Cunanan, and she is the chief diversity, equity and Belonging officer at University Hospitals and she leads the, uh, office of Community Impact Equity, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. She also said, I don't care what you do, but belonging has to be in my title. At University Hospitals, which is the second largest employer in Greater Cleveland, Selena is tasked with developing and growing thoughtful, innovative programs and addressing the issues of social determinants of health in diverse communities. She addressed the issue of sleep related infant deaths by co founding the nonprofit Babies Need Boxes Ohio, which provided baby boxes, safe sleep education and supplies to expectant families. Please join me in welcoming Selena. So the theme of our conference today is catalyze change, Move from dialogue to action. One of my mantras is we just do so much talking. When are we going to get to action? And today you're going to listen to both what Kwame teaches and has done in his career as well as Selena, who what does it look like to move from dialogue to action? And I wanna start off just exploring both of your careers. And Kwame, I wanna start with you. We've already established you're an attorney, you're a mediator and a negotiation expert, but you also view your work through the diversity and equity lens. Can you share a story from your childhood that now looking back from foreshadow you becoming a negotiator?

Absolutely. Well, good morning, everybody. Good to see you. So I grew up in Tiffin, Ohio. How many of you have heard of Tiffin? Yes, yes, yes. Tiffin is a big city, as you know, and it's known for its diversity. Right. So my family's from the Caribbean, a first generation Caribbean American. So coming to Tiffin, we had a joke amongst ourselves. There are only four black people in Tiffin. Me, my mom, my dad, my brother. And so I remember it was tough fitting in and there was this experience in first grade that stuck with me forever. So I remember one time just looking for friends to play with. So here the only black kid in school with this really strong Caribbean accent. And I would go to different groups and ask if they would play with me, and each of them said no. I spent the entire recess going through that process. And as much as possible, I tried to keep it in and keep it together, but I just went in and started bawling to the first grade teacher. And she said, what happened? I said, well, nobody would play with me. So from that moment on, I said, I will never feel this lonely again. So for me, what I did is I tried to get everybody to like me. And from the outside looking in, it looked like a success because I became the most popular kid in school. I always had a lot of friends, but it turned me into a people pleaser. So it made it really hard for me to stand up for myself. And so for me, my journey to negotiation was overcoming that challenge, recognizing that as a people pleaser, I couldn't create the change that I wanted to see. And I didn't understand how to overcome it until I got into law school, where I stumbled into a negotiation class. And I realized this was a skill, not a talent I could actually improve. And so that's what drove me to start the American Negotiation Institute. And our motto is, we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And it's soon after that that I met Selena when I was doing a little bit of infant mortality work, because I wanted to bring that persuasive communication style to the equity lens that we're talking about right now. Because a lot of times we have a lot of passion, but what we need to do is turn that passion into persuasion so we can make the change we want to see.

Well, I love that you and Selena realized that you know each other. I was like, that was planned. Okay.

It was not.

And, Selena, you practiced midwifery since 2001 until becoming the Chief Diversity, Equity and Belonging Officer at uh. And so how did you transition from midwifery to dei?

Yeah. You know, thanks. Thanks for that question. And you know, Kwame, I listening to your story, and it brings me to my own. Like, so many similarities in how I felt as a first. Like, my parents were first generation Filipinos here. And so I think that's. That there's that shared experience with people immigrating in. And so a lot of the things that you said about people pleasing and wanting, no one will play with you. My family, I grew up in an island, like, literally an island. And we were the family of color right there. So it's a lot of similarities, I think, across all peoples when they're coming here to the United States. And we shouldn't forget that for what we see out there in the news. But anyways, from my journey, I started as. My dad was an obstetrician. Gynecologist. His dad was an obstetrician. My mother was an OB nurse. Her mother was an OB nurse. So I went into the family business as a Certified nurse midwife. In catching babies in my career, I've caught over 1000 babies here in Cleveland, northeast Ohio.

I appreciate you caught them and did not let them drop.

No, never. I haven't lost one. Never lost one. I might have, you know, who knows, maybe I've caught some of your babies out here. There's always at least one in the audience, but you know that really. But I was new, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, came here for school, graduated from case and was working here as a nurse midwife before we really realized that. We started talking have this conversation about the outcomes here in northeast Ohio. And I was appalled and ashamed because ashamed, not that it was my sole responsibility, but the fact that I was in health care and I was supposed to be providing these experiences. And I thought that if people got health care that they would have good outcomes. And we know so much more now, right? Like that was when we weren't talking about social drivers of health and we realized that health care in itself only affects outcomes by about 20% and the other 80% are driven by social drivers, social determinants of health. That really started me on a journey figuring out, well, why, why is this? Why do we have three major health care systems here? For really here in town, we're a health care town, why do we still have the outcomes that we have? And it kind of started me on this journey about exploring why what needs needed to be different and really deciding to move from just the discussion right into action. If we're talking about preterm birth, we started centering pregnancy, which helped to address preterm birth. And we have one of the largest, second largest centering pregnancy programs in the country, which is group prenatal care. Or we're talking about sleep related deaths, which is the second largest determinant of babies that die before their first birthday. That's when I started that nonprofit with some other shaker moms really looking at gathering supplies and baby boxes after like what they did in Finland. And we hosted community baby showers around town. Pre Covid gave out supplies, sleep and pack and plays and clothes, diapers, wipes, everything that somebody would need for their first baby. So from that really in leading the midwives, providing midwifery services for women who want it because we know we have better outcomes at lower costs. That's really what transitioned me in doing all that work in the maternal child space to transitioned me into this role to lead the health system, the health system. Our leadership came to me and said, we want you to lead this. And I Was like, nah, I'm good. It was 2020 and the world was on fire. Right. And we know what happened in 2020. We had many pandemics. We had racism, and we had Covid. Right. So people that look like Kwame and Patrice were getting killed at the hands of police. People who looked like me were getting beaten in the streets. So it was that decision point about what do I want my life to be about, what do I want to do differently? And for a lot of people, when we look out in people, we saw the protests and the riots. And for me, this job in doing this work is my form of protest. It is insidious. It was within the organization. It is changing the fabric of what we do within the organization and. And in turn, changing the way we treat our community. So that's kind of in a nutshell, like how I got to be in this space.

I have a couple of questions. Follow up questions for you, Kwame, in particular. First of all, many do not think about negotiation and DEI in the same breath. But you do.

Yes.

So can you talk a little bit about why it makes sense definitely. To put them together?

Well, the answer is obvious. I have to stay on brand. If I name it the American Negotiation Institute, that has to be the answer for everything. Well, but we have to concede. Negotiation might not be the right answer for everybody. So we could do a little poll. So how many of you want to create positive change in your community or your organization? Just raise your hand. Okay. Now, how many of you have the political power or authority to make that change happen without any other support?

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So we don't have the authority to get things done by ourself, which means we have no authority completely, but we do have influence. At best, influence is a style of persuasion. That's where negotiation comes into play.

So for the record, the first question, everybody raised their hand. The second question, no hands went up because we can't do it alone.

Exactly right. And so the reality is we have no other path to success. We have to have the dialogue that we're talking about, but we want to turn that into action. But we have to have coordinated action. We have to have people moving in the same direction. We. We can't do that without effective communication. So we have to be outcome oriented in our approach. And as we go through this conversation, the skills of negotiation that I'm going to share with you, they apply not just in DEI context, but in all difficult conversations. But I need to concede, it's very heavy. It's hard. There's a lot of emotional labor that is required in order to be effective in this. Right. So what do we do about that? So I think the first negotiation we have to have is with ourselves. We have to be honest with ourselves about how we're feeling. Because I feel like, especially people who are advocates, we experience a little bit of survivor's guilt where we're in a decent position and we feel bad about the people who are in worse positions. So we say, how dare I take a break when there's so many other people feeling and experiencing so much hardship. But the reality is we cannot push forward unless we take care of ourselves too. So we have to have that internal negotiation with ourselves to understand how we're feeling, being honest with ourselves, and slowing down when we need to slow down. Because if we get burnt out, we check out. And I know that personally because I had to step back from the equity work for years before I was able to come back. So that's the first thing. First negotiation has to be with ourselves. The second negotiation needs to be for allies because we cannot do this by ourselves. And then we go and we try to have these conversations and it's like we keep on pulling, pushing this boulder up the hill in perpetuity. And it just keeps on getting harder the more we work. And so the second negotiation we have to have is with people who are sympathetic, people who are like minded but might not know exactly what to do. And we find people who have power, people who have privilege, and people who are in a good position. And we negotiate with them so we have allies working alongside us at the heart of it.

You define negotiation as a conversation where you want something from someone else.

Exactly. And anyone in the conversation wants something. I think that's an important distinction too, because sometimes it's us who has a desire, we want something. So we're going to have a conversation, a negotiation, in order to get that. And then it might be us on the opposite side. Maybe we don't want anything, but somebody wants something from us. That, too, is a negotiation as well. And so the thing is, I recognize that it's not a question of whether or not we're negotiating. It's just a question of whether or not we're doing it well. That's it. And so we have to have the mindset and skill set in order to get the outcomes that we want.

Well, Selena, it's really easy or it's much easier to discuss polarizing topics with people who agree with us. But sometimes we can be in our own echo chamber. What approach have you used or experienced that allows us to break out of that comfort zone?

Yeah, I mean, I think that we all have different identities and things that we identify with. And I think that there might be some, there's many that are overlapping with the same people you have. There might be some that are different. I think we always have to be willing to listen. I think a lot of this work and what I've learned in this space, you know, having taken over the space in 21, it's a lot about listening. It's about a lot about negotiation. It's a lot about focusing people on the task, on the commonality of the purpose of what your work is and being willing to listen to both sides. You don't necessarily have to agree. Right. You're not going to necessarily convince the other person. You can work to negotiate on the topic that you need to. But that doesn't mean. But I think there always has to be a level of respect for listening to what other somebody else's viewpoint is. I've worked with people over the course of my career who I have not liked, who we have not agreed upon. It doesn't mean that we don't get the job done. Right. We have to stay focused on what the task is at hand for the organization, for the patients, for the people that are here. And I agree with you in terms of when you're talking about a negotiation, I'll tell you a story that when I started in this role, I made a decision to meet with all of our clinical chairs and met with a lot of other leaders in the organization. And. And I think because I'm dei, I think there is automatically this assumption that I'm going to tell them what they're doing wrong. You're not doing this, you're not doing that, this and that. I really see myself as a servant to that. Like a servant. I'm a consultant to them. And Once they actually, there were some people who tried to avoid me. I was just very persistent. I'm so sorry you couldn't make it. Let me see if we can get that rescheduled. I'm happy to come to you. Do you want me to meet you outside the. Or I can come to your office. Right. But it was. But once they met with me and I said, tell me what you need. Like, tell me the things that you're seeing in your faculty or you're seeing in your team. What are the things that we can help with? And, you know, and then they were always kind of like, oh, this was very helpful. I'm like, yeah, right. We're here for the same purpose. Right. We want a team that's thriving and respects and brings in diverse viewpoints. We want us to be highly productive. We want us to serve the diverse communities that we're privileged to serve here in Northeast Ohio with the utmost dignity and respect in culturally responsive ways. That's our jobs in health care. And so that's what we are trying to do. But it was oftentimes convincing them or getting them focused on the same things, that commonality. And what are we here to do as an organization? We're here to service everyone, and that means everyone. But how do we do that in ways that meets each individual's needs? And I think once you can get people re centered on the purpose, you can work through really anything.

One of the things that you mentioned in your book, how to have Difficult Conversations, Kwame, is around that anyone can be a good negotiator. That's one. And the other part was about calling people in and not calling them out.

Yeah.

Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Yeah. So let's address the first part. So first there has to be that belief, and I know it sounds cheesy, you have to believe it to achieve it, et cetera, et cetera. Okay. So let's just put that to the side. Right. But if you don't believe that you can get better at it, then you're not going to get better at it. So it goes back to that mindset, fixed mindset versus growth mindset. So if we have a fixed mindset, we think about this as a tactic. Either I got it or I don't. And so if I don't have it, then I'm doomed to be at this position forever. But if we think about it in terms of a growth mindset now, we can say, all right, if I practice, I can get better. And so when you start to recognize that negotiations are everywhere. You recognize that you can practice every single day. So that's the thing. I'm married for 14 years, have two kids. I'm negotiating all the time. And if I can manage, not just in the work, not just in the work. Work negotiations are easy. But when you're trying to have a conversation with a three year old saying, daddy, Daddy, look at this, and he does this little jump thing, I'm like, why am I, what, what are we here for? If I can manage to keep my cool in that situation, then we can move forward, right? And so I think we have to have that mindset where we say, yes, if I can actually believe that I can take these practice opportunities and improve, then we're going to be able to show up a lot better in our everyday conversations. And so that's the first thing that we need to do. And then the second thing is we have to be very strategic about the conversations that we're having. So one of the things you just asked Selena was a lot of times we're having these conversations with people who agree with us. And that's great. That feels really good. But preaching to the choir can only get us but so far. And we have to be willing to step outside and actually believe that we can have an impact on the people who don't immediately agree with. And I think that's where it gets really tough.

I find that really interesting. I had a recent conversation with my team and it was like it was around, do we change the hearts and minds of people? Like, what is our approach going to be? And many times I'm like, we can work with those who believe in the work. And I had a team member to say, I disagree. I think we should be calling everybody into this conversation. I've done it. Here's how I did it. And it worked. And we don't agree about everything, but we can have a civil conversation. And a couple things I like about that is it's so easy to get comfortable being comfortable. And it's also easy, especially as a leader, to think that you're going to say something and you're not going to get pushed back. And I loved that she was like, one moment, walk the walk, not just talk. And two, let's be able to change this narrative. And so as we think about, and this is for both of you, as we think about even the term dei, diversity, equity and inclusion, it's really polarizing now. It's being used in a divisive way. How can we depoliticize this term so that we can get the outcome that we want, which is we want everyone to feel good about going to work and being successful in working together.

We've had lots of conversations, and I see my friend Marcia here in the audience, who is overleading in the Urban League, and she has a fabulous chief diversity officer collective that I'm a part of. And we've had these conversations among us because we know we live in Ohio, North Florida sometimes, right? And it's very politically charged. The work, regardless of what we call it, the work remains the same. The names might change, right? For me, and I had this conversation with Patrice before. I was like, I'm going to dig my heels in for this a little bit. And I got some tall heels because we need diversity, we need equity, we need inclusion. Now, I heard, I've been reading some things, that there's this move away from equity and really looking at more stability from some HR organizations and some HR organizations, and that's. And we lose sight of the progress of the work that we're trying to do. And for health care, at least for us, it's always going to be around equity because we're going to be talking about health equity, because if we cannot, if we don't have similar outcomes for patients of all, across all demographics, then there's disparities, right? There's inequities. So for me, in my business, we're always going to be talking about inequity. So thus, I'm not moving away from it. Now, how do we create that dynamic for everyone to feel like they're involved or could be part of this work? And that's really where belonging comes in. And that's where, you know, when they asked me, do you want to be the DEI officer, what do you want to be called? Because this was a new position that was created for me in 22. And I said, you know, I want to be the diversity. I want to be the Equity and Belonging Officer. That was my first. My first thing. I said, I want to be the Equity and Belonging Officer. Are they going to know what that is? And I'm like, do you think we should put diversity. I'm like, fine, we'll put diversity in front of it, too. And that's important. But it's going to be a really long title then, and I'm just not. But I wanted to be. But I really wanted to focus on those two portions, right? How do we talk about equity, especially in a healthcare organization, and inequities? And that means also inequities within talent development, recruitment, leadership development, all of that, and then belonging. How does everyone see themselves in this work? You know, I talked about these meeting with leaders and chairs and everything, and they said this was really helpful. And now they feel they're very. They're very galvanized, right? They're part of the work that I do. They're part of. They're like, yes, we'll do all of this stuff that you're asking us to do, because they see the purpose for the organization. So the more that you can make other people feel like they belong and are part of this work, I think is really. I think is really important. You know, I. I'll tell this story. We. We released an impact report in 23, our first one for the. Just about the. What we did for the course of the year before. And I went back to my team and I said, these are all really great pictures. And I said, I see lots of people of color. I don't see enough people who have been at our events and at some of our things or some of the volunteers. I go, we need more pictures like that. And it was important. They were like, oh, okay. And it was really. I go, it's really important to show that everyone. I want, anyone that opens this book, they can see themselves in this, right? They can see that, oh, I can belong to this. I can be a part of this. And that's how we kind of bridge the gap there.

Kwame.

Yeah. And so, for me, I think this is where the legal background helps, because there are a lot of times where I can remember I had to sacrifice parts of myself in order to get the job done. This might be surprising, but there are some despicable lawyers out there who you don't want to interact with. And so I recognized early in my career that I can't go into those negotiations and tell them exactly what I think of them and let them have it, because what would that conversation with my client be like? Like, oh, man, you should have seen it. I let them have it. So they're like, oh, that's great, man. You told them about themselves. I was like, yeah, let them know. So, did we get the deal? Oh, no, they hate us. We have no shot. Right? And so I recognized, okay, there are going to be times in these conversations where there are a lot of things that I need, that I might want to say, and I need to pull my. My punches. I need to be outcome oriented. What is the outcome that I want to get? And a lot of times that means that I have to make some emotional sacrifices, and I think a lot of us have been tied to that term diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we have to recognize that people have different meanings. So think about the word fair. So is fairness important? Yes, it is. Have we ever been in conversations pertaining to diversity, equity, and inclusion where both sides are talking about fairness and using it against each other?

Oh, absolutely.

So then what does fairness mean? Right. A lot of times we end up having semantic arguments where we are not arguing about the substance of the conversation, but on the definition of words. And for me, the definition of words often does not get the job done. Right. Because at the end of the day, if I get them to agree with my definition of a certain word, does that necessarily lead to a specific outcome? Not always. And so I have to figure out how to negotiate with this particular person. So with all of you, you all are here because you believe in dei. I will use that term all the time because we have a similar definition. But if I'm talking to somebody who is absorbing a different type of media who understands that in their mind, diversity, equity, inclusion is something like reverse racism or something like that, anytime I bring that up, I'm damaging my own growth in this conversation. I am moving myself backward. And so now I'm advocating for a term, not an outcome. And so what we have to do is we have to recognize bias exists, but bias gives and it takes. So sometimes we have to recognize bias will work against us. We have to figure out what biases can work in our favor and mobilize those going forward. So here's an example. When we think about inclusion work, have you ever heard of the term affinity bias? It's dangerous. You are like me, so I like you. And that's why a lot of times organizations look like clones of each other. And we say affinity bias is bad because of that reason. But then what we can do is we can recognize again, bias gives and it takes away. So what can I do to mobilize affinity bias in my favor in an ethical type of way? So I'm going to have a conversation and figure out who this person is, what they believe in, what they care about, and I'm going to figure out those things that we have in common. I'm going to point those things out. Now I start to generate a little bit of warmth and momentum in my direction because let's be a little bit culturally relevant here. When I was analyzing the song Not Like Us, of course, I didn't just listen to it. I analyzed why this was so psychologically. Damaging. So not like us. We're triggering in group outgroup bias. No matter what this man says, he's not like us, so he can never win. Right. And so during these conversations, they're always thinking that affinity bias is going the other way. They're not like us. They want something different. Therefore, I will always be resistant. So if I flip that and I figure out how we are similar now, oh, they are like us. We do want the same thing. And, Selena, like you said, if you point out the data and you say, hey, when you think about black babies versus white babies in terms of health outcomes, there is this discrepancy. Are you okay with that? No. Okay, so this is a problem that affects our whole community. What are we going to do about it? Let's talk about how we can solve this problem together. I can still navigate that conversation productively without ever saying dei. So you have to understand who your audience is. So if it's somebody who is feeling that term, use that term. But if you recognize there's a bias against that term, just think about bias not as a barrier, but as a strategic consideration and navigate the conversation accordingly.

I want to let everyone know in the audience that you will have an opportunity to ask questions. We have a Q and a code that we're going to show shortly, and you can submit your questions by taking a photo of the QR code and typing your question and hitting submit. Kwame, I would love for you to talk a little bit more about your negotiation framework. You said anybody can be a great negotiator because it's a learned skill. And so what skills do we need? To be like you?

Yes. To be like me. Okay, so first thing, I do not want you to end up saying, how can I be more like Kwame? Christian, I take that back.

So we can be more like ourselves.

A better version of yourselves. Yes. We can't have too many Kwame's. Nobody would check their emails. It would be horrible. And my team is not laughing because they know it's true. So here's the thing. So one of the things I was doing as I was hosting the Negotiate Anything podcast is I get to talk to the best minds in negotiation from all around the world. And I was asking myself a question. What are the things that all of these people have in common, no matter where they are in the world? What are they saying, but saying differently? And I recognize that after over 1200 episodes of Negotiate Anything, there are three things that they all have in common. So, number one, great negotiators can adapt and flow. So they don't go into a negotiation with a specific script. They go in with an idea. They go in with preparation. They prepare very thoroughly, but they're willing to go in and adapt and flow and adjust based on the information they're getting. That's number one. Number two, great negotiators ask great questions. They are led by curiosity. So negotiation is an information game. The more information we have, the better off we'll be. That's where empathy comes into play. So when we're talking about empathy, we're not talking about agreement, we're talking about understanding how the other sides sees, thinks and feels about the situation. What's their perspective, how do they feel about it and how are they thinking about it? The better I understand that, the better I'm going to be. And then lastly, the best negotiators can manage the emotions in the room, both yours and the other side's. Because if you can manage the other side's emotions but you're freaking out, you're not going to be very good. Right? So you need to make sure that you're managing the emotions in the room. And so that's what led us to create the Compassionate Curiosity framework. So this is a simple three part framework that you can use in any difficult conversation, whether you're at work or at home. So step one is acknowledge and validate emotions. So we're going to assume that there is an emotional challenge in the room. We're going to label that emotion, saying it sounds like it seems like or I can tell that. And then we're going to lower the emotional temperature in the room. Then once we recognize we've gotten to a manageable part, then we're going to move to step two, which is getting curious with compassion, asking open ended questions with a compassionate tone to gather information, empathize and get some positive momentum in that way. And then lastly, number three, we're going to use joint problem solving. After we've managed the emotions and lowered the emotional temperature of the room, after we have gathered information by asking questions. Now we're going to work with the other side to try to solve a problem. So we're approaching this conversation not in terms of me versus you, but it's you and me versus the problem. And that whole framework allows you to flow during the conversation, ask great questions, listen and empathize and move together with the other side to solve the problem.

Okay, I'm going to ask you one more follow up question and then I'm going to kick it to Selena.

Yes.

Give an example, because that sounds all great.

Yeah.

But what does it look like in real life?

In real life. So here's an example of working with a consulting firm that brought me in for some DEI work. So this was at the height of the. Of 2020, with all of the social unrest. And so they brought me in because they had never hired a black lawyer in the history of the firm. They had some serious diversity issues. And so as we were having the conversation, there were some people who were running for office. They didn't want to politicize this. And the thing is, one thing you never want to do in these conversations, especially in conversations about dei, is bring politics into it. It never bring politics into it. Never make that little offhanded comment that shows your political ideology and you hope nobody catches on. They will catch on and you will be penalized for it because we don't need to bring politics in. That will hold us back. Right. So we need to be very, very clear that the things that people are seeing on TV have nothing to do. What we're talking about now, we're talking about working together to solve this particular problem. That's it. But that was the resistance we were feeling. And so for me, going through the framework, I said, so correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like you don't want to bring politics into the office inappropriately. Right. They're like, yeah, I think that'll. It's really divisive. This DEI stuff is really divisive. So I don't want to cause that rift in the office. Now, little aside, as you're acknowledging and validating the emotions, people will say a whole bunch of stuff that you disagree with. Now is not the time to counter. Okay. So I'm going to acknowledge their point. Just like an emotion. Okay. So that makes sense. You want to make sure that we don't become divisive in the office and you want to make sure we still have cohesion. Yeah, that's what I want. So I'm going to go to that point until they see them calming down, the defensiveness starts to go down. I'm not going to agree. I'm just going to say, I see you with what I'm saying. Right. So then I shifted from that to getting curious with compassion. And so I said, there are a lot of the big clients that you have that are now being very aware of, of the diversity makeup of the law firms. And so right now, when you compare us to other law firms and they go to the website, what are they Going to see as far as their diversity makeup? Well, they're going to see no diversity. I said, okay, and if we don't address this, what do you think the future is for the firm? And he got very quiet. Very important rule about silence. Do you know what to say when there's silence? Nothing. Don't mess it up. Get some good work. You use that awkwardness. That's an important tool. And then he said, if we don't figure this out, this will be an existential threat to the firm. I think so. So what do you think we should do? Move to compassion. Getting curious with compassion and then joint problem solving. And they made those changes. They made those changes. And so we have to figure out what it is that moves these people. And in this case, it was the future of the firm. So I don't need you to be like flying the flag of dei. I just need you to get on board or not get in the way. Right. And in that situation, we figured out what he cared about, and we're able to help him to recognize that this is not me versus you. This is not like a combative type of thing. We recognize. We need to recognize that this is a problem that all of us are suffering from in different ways. We have to figure out what works for them and then invite them into the problem solving process.

So, Selena, I would love for you to share a little bit more about when you've had conversations with others who have these different viewpoints. What has that looked like? When has it been successful or not?

Yeah, I think that getting back to if we talk about healthcare and clinical outcomes, we can't deny the outcomes that are existing in some of our communities here in Northeast Ohio. And I've talked a lot about infant mortality. That's my specialty. Right. We can talk about maternal mortality. We can talk about asthma for black children. We can talk about hypertension, we can talk about diabetes. We can talk about all of those things. And I think for me, especially in my industry, right, it's very easy. Let's just make the general assumption that people who enter healthcare are there to help people and to maybe cure people. Right. If they have cancer or something like that. And if you can get people refocused around that. And that's how I've always been able to get people on board with what I've needed to do. I've rarely had a situation which I've not been able to negotiate for something for a common purpose. It's not about me. It's not about my office, about what I. Or dei, right? It's about what is the purpose at hand, right? And so those are, you know, I think getting people refocused on those, the purpose and what that is. And oftentimes, you know, you were, as you were telling the story. It's a lot of coaching, Right. And, you know, I'm a coach as well. And so it's about coaching, getting people to that point. Point, right. Asking the right questions, not telling them what this is the answer, asking them the questions about what is important to you, Right. Having them come to that decision. It's not us going in and saying a lot of times in the DEI space, and I see so many of my DEI friends here, they're like, oh, good, sometimes you're here. Oh, good, you're here. You're going to do stuff for us. No, no, no, no. I see my friend Margie shaking her head, right? No, no, no, no. We're here to help you, Right? We're here to help you and help guide you in this process. But we're not mandating things. I'm not, you know, we are. We want you to come to that conclusion and that space that this is necessary for you, for your line of business, for your employee retention, for leadership development, for being able to serve diverse communities. That's what we always kind of bring it back to. And I think, you know, healthcare is a much. I think in that way, I feel very blessed to be in healthcare because it's a much very. It's an easier ask, right? Because we see these things that are happening in Northeast Ohio around us, and I'm assuming it's much harder in other industries to kind of make those same challenges. But there are those similar things about diversifying the firm or diversifying businesses to increase what you bring to the communities and what they want. Like, if you're going to engage a community of color, they need to be people that are in marketing team, right. That are creating those strategies around it. You know, we need to make sure that we're engaging and understanding and leveraging the talent of all the people around us.

So we have a couple. A few questions here. The first one says, can you share three considerations for change agents implementing dei.

Considerations just in general?

Sure.

Well, let's start with negotiation. So I think a lot of times when we go to events like this, it turns into a bit of a theoretical exercise. So I see people nodding. This is great. Hypothetically, this will be good. And so what ends up happening is people will say, all right, I think we can do this. Let Me do a little bit more research. Great, I'm going to do some more research. Well, let me consult a few more friends. I'm going to consult a few more friends. And then what ends up happening is that we just keep on kicking the can down the road before we actually start having the conversation, putting this into action and creating positive change. And so for the folks who are in here, if you are coming to a conference to learn, I'm going to label you all as thinkers. You can reject that if you want. I suggest you don't. Okay, so a lot of times when you are very heady, when you're a thinker, a lot of times fear can play tricks on you. And a lot of times the over intellectualization of this problem is just another manifestation of fear. I'm just going to keep you thinking and keep you thinking about thinking until you just do not take any action. And so you all will be confronted with some kind of difficult conversation. And a lot of times it will either be directly about DEI issues or it will touch on DEI issues. That is an opportunity to practice. You don't need to be perfect, you just need to get better. And I'm going to assume that as you go throughout your career, you're going to elevate, you're going to have more significant conversations. So no matter what conversation you're having right now, it's probably not going to be as heavy or important as the conversation you're having tomorrow, next month, next year. So no matter what, the conversation that you're having today is just a practice opportunity for tomorrow. And so if you just recognize that now, you're going to be more likely to take action. So my one tip, honestly is just to take action and practice so you can keep getting better.

What I like is that you talk about getting the results. And one of the comments you made in your book is, can you call yourself an advocate if you have no results? That gets to the heart of are we going to be stuck being comfortable with no movement or are we going to become comfortable being uncomfortable?

Exactly. And I think it's a nice label to have. I'm an ally, I'm an advocate, I'm a DEI change agent.

But.

But again, sometimes we get so caught up in being able to proudly say that about ourselves that we miss the fact that we actually have to do something and have the proper outcomes about it. Right. Because we can have these really emotional conversations with other change agents who agree with us and still not move things forward. So we have to be again, outcome oriented. We have to pick a spot. We have to figure out what it is that we want to do and figure out how we're going to move forward the needle in our own way. The way that Selena does it is going to be different than the way I do it, and that's going to be different from the way that you all do it. Right. So you have to figure out what it is that works for you and how you can make a difference and start driving toward change in that way.

And I guess I just want to say, too, that, like, you know, you're not. Your purpose in having these negotiations.

Right.

Is not to be right. Yes, it is not to be right. It is to. It is to come to a better understanding of each other. There is a lot that we have to embrace in this room that we're gonna be wrong. A lot of times that there are things that all of us. Even though if we're DEI professionals in this room, there's a lot of things that we do not know. And we have to come to those tables and those discussions with some humility as well.

So we have to take our ego out of it.

Take your ego out of it. Right. There's gonna be. There have been things that I've been wrong about that I have said I'm sorry, I was wrong. I need to apologize for that. We have to be okay with. With making mistakes, but, you know, we will continue to make mistakes because that means that we're still trying.

Absolutely. And to that point, there's a difference between being right and being persuasive.

Yes.

Because there are times where you might have had all the facts and data and logic on your side, but the other side does not move. So if that happens, what do you do? Say the same thing, but louder. That's not effective either, right? Yeah. And so I don't need the other person to even agree with the way that I see the world. I'm focused on the outcome. And there are times where the person still might not agree with all of the fundamentals of my belief system, but they might recognize that it serves them to make this adjustment. And if we focus on being right, what does that mean for the other side? They're wrong. So we're choosing the path of most resistance. So the only way that the other side can be redeemed in this conversation is to admit their own ignorance and submit to you. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. And so that's where the humility comes into play. And what I found is that humility can be one of the most persuasive tools in your toolbox. Because if I'm willing to say I'm wrong and there's something that I don't understand, I'm tacitly giving them permission to do the same thing. It makes them more persuadable. And a little aside, I remember one time, this might surprise you, I made another mistake and my wife was calling me out. We were sitting at the gate, we were delayed for this flame. And she said, hey, are we boarding? I was like, no, no, no, we're watching Netflix. I was really into it. We were boarding, we missed the flight. And so Whitney was like, hey, Kwame, remember that time where we were boarding and I said we should board and you didn't board? Remember that? I was like, whit, I do remember that time. It was two minutes ago. And.

Kwame, that. That's what my team member would say. Why you bringing up old stuff?

Exactly right. I said, and you know what, Whit? I was wrong. And she said, it's not fun anymore. I can't do anything right. And you can completely diffuse people with that humility, too. So, you know, it took me a long time to get to this point, but I've recognized that it is persuasive in some of these high level conversations, too.

All right, our next question. How do you negotiate with people who do not want to resign, Release their power and privilege to achieve DEI work, even when there's an understanding of the urgency and goal? So which one of you would like to touch on this one?

That very light question? You know, I think it's. It is. It is always bringing back to the purpose and the point. I, you know, I was really overwhelmed when I stepped into the space. I had been a midwife for 20 some years and stepped into this leadership role for the, you know, the entire organization. And I was overwhelmed at what was before me, all the things that I had that I thought I had to do or to fix, right? And I gotta get it fixed by the end of the month, Right. Just these problems that have been existing for like 400 years. But it was my job to fix it. You created it and I created it, and it's my job to fix it. And the other, you know, and I really had to take a step back and realize that, you know, my job is not to necessarily fix things. My job is not to be right. My job is not to convince people to be here. Right. If we're talking about a continuum, my job is to create those relationships, build that trust Open people's minds to discussing things and maybe moving them along a continuum. They can move as fast or as slow as they want, right? Some people are like, I'm with you, Selena. Like, take me with you. I'm gonna take you with me. Right? And there are some people like, thanks for that information. I'm gonna drop out of sight now and maybe come back to you. And they'll maybe approach me at a different point. I need to do some of my own learning, understanding. And so I think it's, you know, kind of making sure that we're moving people along that continuum and building trust. You know, when you talk about leadership, you know, I get, you know, I've been kind of a leader my whole life, as you have, right from the time you said, I'm going to be like, I'm going to have everyone play with everyone here in this playground. You know, it's not about really leading. It's about listening. It is about building those trusting relationships. 95% of what I do and why I'm successful in the things that I do do, I'm not successful in everything is because I have built relationships with people within the organization or outside the organization. Every opportunity, every time, every work opportunity. Even if I'm so tired, I'm like, I'm going to go. Or if I'm like, this event, I got to go, right. Sometimes. And I forced myself to go previously throughout the years, because I knew that it was important to build those relationships because key stakeholders were going to be there and it was going to be getting me what I needed to or getting me the support for what I wanted. Right. Which at the time was around infant mortality, which is around internal support for the work that I was trying to do with the programs that I was trying to set up. So always taking those opportunities to build relationships and you don't have to be there at events and just talking about the work. Get to know people, find some commonality between people. Right. Talk about things that their last trip or, oh, your kids are here, so are mine. I think they played each other in this. Those are the. The more that we can relate to people, humans as humans, is the more that we can break down those barriers and those silos and what we think about other people and realize that people are just people. Right?

Yep. Oh, I see a question.

I do. I have a question, A follow up, and that's around. It made me think about your thoughts around code switching, Kwame, and if you could talk just a little bit about what that means to you. Because it's a lot more expansive than normally people think about code switching.

Yeah. So I remember when I was in law school, I was having a conversation with another black law student and code switching came up and the person said, no hard pass. I'm not shucking and jiving for anybody. And I was like, okay, do you realize I'm code switching for you right now?

And explain what code switching is.

Code switching is when you change a little bit of your identity in order to match the surroundings a little bit. Where you adapt. I wouldn't say change your identity. It's where you adapt and flex. And the guy was really confused. He's like, what do you mean? I said, I'm a Caribbean American. I was not introduced to African Americans until college. And so I've developed this ability to connect with you in the same way I developed the ability to connect with other people. Now, code switching becomes problematic. If somebody believes that they have to sacrifice parts of their authentic identity in order to survive within an organization, that is problematic. That means you have a problem with inclusion. That means people don't feel safe. Safe being themselves. That's a problem. Want to be very clear about that. But what we need to do is we need to be able to connect and communicate with people. And the only way that we can do that is by spending more time with people who are different. And so you can find authentic elements of yourself within those interactions. So we do it all the time, just in different ways. We don't call it code switching all the time. The way that you talk to your friends on a weekend out is different from the way that you might talk to your boss at work or. Or your friends at work. Right. Those are still authentic versions of yourself. You just adjust. Kwame, right here is different from Kwame playing with his three year old rolling on the ground. You don't want to see me do that.

Actually, I would.

Follow me on Instagram if you want to see that. Yeah. So it's about recognizing that it's okay to adjust in order to connect, but just do it in a way that's authentic, in a way that doesn't sacrifice you, your identity.

I love that.

The next question, Selena. Love for you to talk a little bit about this. It says, why are people of color historically placed in diversity leadership or hr if the issue of discrimination and bias in the workplace is often not initiated by members of non dominant groups?

Oh, that's another really light question. You're welcome. You know, I think I always talk about the work that I do because I do, you know, some HR work. Like, some of it is HR and it's internal space, right? Some of it. A lot of it is in the community facing programs as well. And I think, why do people. Are we placed in there, or do we choose to be there?

Right?

For me, I just told you that this is my form of protest. This is my way of making a difference in the world. This is my way of making my life better for myself, my. My black husband, my biracial kids, everyone that I come in contact with. And so this was a choice for me to be in the space. And so people choose to be in those spaces. I think that the problem that can happen is that, yes, there are lots of people of color in DEI roles, right? And they might have more lived experiences in some ways to be able to relate to some of the things that are happening in those spaces. I think people step up to those roles. I stepped up to that role. I mean, I said no to this role three times. And to be honest with you, and then I finally said yes. My husband was like, why are you saying no to this? You know, you want to do this? And I was like, and I'll tell you. I'll share with you. You know, I said, does it need to be me in my world, in this organization? It has always been a black physician that has led this organization in the DEI space. And that was me. Do I need to step aside? Is there somebody else that needs to do it? Right? And that was a real kind of struggle that I had internally, though. I was very passionate about the work. And it was my mentor, Margaret Larkins Pettigrew, who led the office prior to me. And she was leaving, and she said, I'll never forget this. She's like, selena, I have been a black woman my whole life. I go, no, really? And she goes. And that's all I know. She goes, I don't know what it's like to be an immigrant family. I don't know what it's married, what it's like to have biracial children. I don't know what it's like. Like to be Asian. She goes, those are not things that I know. And she goes, you don't discount what you bring into the space and what you bring to this role, right? We need somebody else that's gonna be different from what I did. And that was really the encouragement that I really needed to take a leap of faith to say, okay, I'll do it, right? I'll step into this space, at least in the Interim. And so I think for some people, they have to figure out whether or not is this a stimulus space they want to be in, right? And I think for many of us, we step into it with our whole hearts and our whole selves. I say that this is not just my work, right? This is what I truly believe in. This is my passion. This is just how I want to live, right? I want a world that's a better place for everyone, in which everyone feels like they belong. And so I think a lot of us choose to be in those spaces. And from those spaces, how do we infiltrate and influence the people within the organizations to make changes? That's where I see my power in building this network within this organization, sponsoring people to go to events, building a little bit of a collaborative. I sent, at the beginning of. When I took over, I sent about 50 or 60 people within the organization to obtain a DEI certification program through Northwestern. It was given online. And those people are now my little, you know, agents within the entire organization, right? They are my counsel. They're the people that advise me. They're people that let me know how to get things done in their department. And whenever I call upon them, they're like, yeah, I'm with you. Let's. Let's get this done. And that's, you know, building change from the inside. And so I don't. I'm less hung up about who are people of color that are leading these spaces. How do you network and work within the system to get the job done? I think in the end, I always let the workspace for itself and not necessarily who is that person that's leading it.

Well, that's a great segue to the next question, because this work. And I will have you answer this, Kwame. Basically, they're saying DEI work is everyone's work. It's not just the DEI expert, right? You can't have one person fix hundreds of years of systems in place or even hundreds and thousands of people. How do you influence a company, company leaders, to believe that DID is a priority when the company says it is. So it sounds like with this question, there's more talking than doing. And how do you get people to do. Bonnie?

Well, to the first point, you said, how can we accomplish anything or how can we expect to accomplish anything if we just have one person doing this one work? Well, we can't. That's checking the box. A lot of times, DEI work is more of a marketing expense. It looks good to have somebody in this position, but we're not really serious about Getting it done right. So we have to be honest about that. So we have to address those times where the structures are not set up for our success and we have to advocate for more resources in order to have a serious push toward the change we want to see. That's the first thing. The second thing is, and I know sometimes people are uncomfortable with this, but again, we have to figure out how to make this a win win for everybody. We have to speak their language. And I believe there is genuinely a case to be made where deib type of work helps every facet of the organization. We have to be very entwined and understanding of what it is that people want to do. What are their actual goals? Because if somebody is focused on their own role, let's say maybe sales and marketing and they have those specific metrics and then you talk about DEI work, then in their mind they're saying that is more work. That does not move the needle for me, so why should I do this? Right? So we have to make it a win win for them. So we have to have these conversations, gather information to truly understand what that person wants and needs, and then show them how helping with DEI helps them to accomplish those goals. And so a lot of times we approach this from a more altruistic perspective. This is the right thing to do. And this brings in the distinction between egocentric persuasion and empathetic persuasion. Egocentric persuasion is I'm going to think about what is persuasive to me. I'm going to say that to you in order for you to be persuaded. Empathetic persuasion means I'm going to have a conversation with you, understand what you want, and then I'm going to craft my argument based on your wants and needs. And so if we can figure out a way to create a nexus between the DEI work and the outcomes they care about now, it's more likely for this to be integrated throughout the company in a meaningful way.

I had a follow up question around that and there are some white male leaders that feel attacked. They're like, okay, this is a zero sum game. If we are putting DEI out there and we're focusing on that, then that means that there's less opportunity for someone like me. What do you say to that?

Well, again, that's an emotional response. I'll acknowledge and validate the emotions. A lot of times what people do is somebody says something like that and our response is, no, it's not. They're not in a place where they can receive that. No, it is not persuasive. Right. And so we have to break this down because really what it sounds like to a lot of people is that we're asking them to be unwilling co conspirators in their own demise. So I'm going to ask you to give up everything that you care about for the benefit of people that you might not know. Who's going to do that? Who's going to do that? And then we look at them and say they're racist for not wanting to give up things that matter. Right. So again, we have to adjust our perspective, because let's go back to that example with the firm that I was talking about. They were able to make these changes, and people didn't have to lose their positions. They didn't lose any power or authority within the the organization. They created more opportunities for other people. And so we have to make it clear that in this conversation, we're not attacking. We're bringing you into the solution. We're recognizing that this is a collective problem. So when somebody presents that way and they say, hey, listen, I don't feel comfortable with this, it doesn't seem fair. It seems like reverse racism. I'm going to lean directly into that and say, all right, so it sounds like for you, this doesn't seem fair in your direction. Am I getting that right? Okay, help me to understand where you're coming from. I'm going to dig into that. Because we have Newton's third law of physics where he says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For me, every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. So a lot of times what happens is they push one way, we push the other way, and it just creates more resistance. It's called psychological entrenchment. So at the end of the conversation, because we didn't acknowledge their emotions and understand where they were coming, coming from, they actually leave more dug in than before. And so we have to just say, hey, I understand where you're coming from. Now tell me what those concerns are. And now let's figure out how we can craft a solution where we can have more equitable outcomes without it feeling like a threat to you. Because remember, it is not a real threat. It feels like a threat, but that's going to be perceived the same way. So it's our job to maintain our cool throughout the conversation and not immediately attack and then bring them into the solution. And again, it takes a lot of emotional restraint to be able to do this. And remember, it's not just this conversation we're having with the person. Most likely they're absorbing a lot of media that is telling them that this is a threat to their well being. We can't deny that that has been fed into their minds. So we have to acknowledge that and try to work around it. We have a lot of power, but we do not have as much power as the media. So we can't just go straight up against that. It's just not a pathway to success.

And for those who are feeling threatened, they're not going to be open to, let's say, data and facts, right?

Well, I mean, think about it. We're in an age where data and facts can be easily manipulated. And so in this day and age, we might have data and facts that are persuasive to us, but they have data and facts that are persuasive to them. And so when it comes to confirmation bias, we have to recognize that with the power of almighty Google, all beliefs are possible. So if I search round Earth versus like round Earth hoax, I'm going to get data that will substantiate my arguments. So I'm not going to go into this dueling facts. I'm going to figure out what it is that they're afraid of and why. And a lot of times it's based on something quite legitimate because there might be, you might be a person who is approaching this in a way that brings them in, that's collaborative, recognizing that this is beneficial to everybody. But they might have been hearing all the time, for hours, for the last few months or years, people who are more extreme, talking about how evil and awful white males are. Right? And so we can't deny that that's just gaslighting. And so if we approach it that way, we're doomed for failure. And so again, we have to be outcome oriented and approach the conversation in a way that's more likely to lead to success.

Alrighty, so we have an attendee who has a question for you, Kwame. He says, using your example of the law firm, how do you answer when you try to get curious with a client to solve a problem? And they respond, that's what we hired you for, Kwame.

I would say, and I need your help in order to do my job. Because we have to say, listen, in this position, there's only so much information that I have. You live in this world, you live in this organization. So I need your help to gather information so I can get a better understanding of what it is that we can do to solve this problem. So considering that, respond. Now here's the thing. When we make a point in these conversations. One little trick you can do, especially if somebody asks you a tough question, is make sure that after you make your point, you end your point with an open ended question. My goal in these conversations is to follow the 7030 rule where I get the other side to talk about 70% of the time. I'm talking only 30% of the time. Two main reasons. Number one, you're less likely to make a mistake if you're not talking.

Right.

Nobody's ever failed in a conversation because they say, well, they listen too well. Not realistic. Right. And next, again, it's an information game. I want to keep them talking. And an example is when you listen to my podcast, hopefully after this you will. I have this AI program that's on the side and it tells me the breakdown of conversation. And so I can see how much I'm talking compared to the other side. Like sometimes I can get it to 18%. Only 18%, right. But in that conversation, who's leading the conversation? Who's steering the conversation? It's me, because I'm asking the question. And so I'm going to be the one steering the conversation in a productive direction. But does the other person feel controlled? No, they don't. They feel heard, they feel respected, they feel appreciated. And you do the exact same thing in these conversations.

So our next question is around failure. Can one or both of you talk about when you've negotiated on behalf of advocating for DEI and you were not successful, why did it fail and what did you learn?

Well, I can take a shot at it, because the thing is, for me, the way that I think about business life and the work that we do, if you're not failing, you're not trying. Right? So for me, it's hard to identify one specific failure because I think there are are tons of failures along the way. But it's not about whether or not you fail, it's about how you fail. Are you failing forward? And so in these conversations, the way I think about it is that maybe I don't get the specific outcome that I want, but how can I still use this conversation as a tool to move forward? Maybe the information that I needed was to understand this person, this method that I was trying. This isn't the right way forward, but I can still use this as an opportunity. Opportunity to gather information, to figure out who else I can go to to understand the organization and the atmosphere a little bit better and then maybe work around this person. And so I remember one time I was coaching a woman who was running into A situation where her manager, she. They were working there for, like, over a decade, never one time promoted a black person, had plenty of them, never one time promoted them. And so I gave her different strategies and different tactics how to approach it, approach it this way, because the data demonstrated that she was more than worthy for an advancement. But nothing was getting through, and nobody who was of color was getting through. And I said, all right, well, this seems to be a problem, and the negotiation isn't working with this particular person. Who else can we go to? And so we figured out who we could go to, who was an ally and an advocate at a higher level. And now that person has been removed and a new person has allowed a more equitable advancement of people in that role. And so, again, we have to recognize that it's not that negotiation does not work per se, is that negotiation with this particular person in this particular situation does not work. And at the end of the day, negotiation is a problem solving tool. That's it. And so we're trying to solve a problem, and I'm not going to accept the situation where the problem is not solved. And so if it's not this person, then it's another person, and we find a way around it. And that's an extreme example, but there was overwhelming data in that circumstance to demonstrate that this was a problematic person, a problematic manager who had several, several reports, but they were not reporting to a person who actually had the power and authority to do something about it. So we found that person who was an ally, and then we were able to make that move.

And this is the last question before we wrap up our conversation. And this is. Corporate, public philanthropists say DEI is a priority, but how do we persuade program officers that the DEI work we're doing is worth putting real fiscal support behind? I just love that instinctive response, and I thank you.

You know, I feel like I had to give a talk recently in front of a lot of estate planners. It was a fundraising opportunity for us as an organization, and the room was mostly full of white men. Right. And it wasn't, you know, when you talk about, like, code switching or using language. Right. Knowing your audience and how you present those things to them, bringing them back to what the task is at hand or the things that. The impact that it can have with their dollars, finding those similarities and those, like, having those conversations and knowing what is the. Like, what is your desire? Right. Really finding out, not convincing them that they want your, like, what you want. Right. What is your desire? What do you hope to provide what is the impact that you wish to have? If you're talking about, you know, the dollars that your foundation has or you personally have, what is it that you want to see happen? What is what's most near and dear to your heart? And I've been lucky enough to meet with a lot of people who have, you know, are very passionate about the things that we do in our office or the things that we're trying to do within the organization around making life better for maybe people of color, making life better for the LGBT community, making life better for children in our region. You know, these are all. And I think getting people back to, like, the very granular. What's the purpose? Like, what do you want to see? I think that those. Those conversations, and that sometimes will naturally follow. I don't know. Kwame, what do you think?

Yeah, I think it goes back to just the fundamentals. Whoever it is that we're talking about figure out what matters most to them and help them to realize that this might be one of those hidden barriers for success. That's it. And so when we can figure out what matters to them, then we just tie what we're asking for to what it is that they actually want, and then we actually have to talk about what it would take to achieve what it is that we want to achieve. So a lot of times, it's a threshold issue. So people might say, hey, I agree with this. Hey, yeah, we should do something about it. We can give you $1,000 for the year. Well, thank you for that gesture. And I think we might need a little bit more, and here's why. Right. And so a lot of times, what ends up happening is we end up taking what we can get, but we don't explore if we can get more. And so what we have to do is say, hey, listen, I appreciate that, but based on my research, in order for us to bridge this gap and accomplish this, I believe it will take this much and whatever that number is, make it 20% more than what you really need, assuming that they will negotiate it down. A lot of times, we just don't ask for enough. And I remember one time I was working with actually a coalition that was working toward infant mortality, and they had this goal, we want to achieve this in infant mortality by this time. I said, great. Why didn't you ask for double that? Right? And it kind of blew their minds. They're like, I don't know. I said, well, the thing is, we're going to be limited by just our imagination here. And a lot of times, we don't believe that we can achieve these things. So we have to ask for more understanding that the other side is most likely going to negotiate it down. So, again, that's an example of negotiation, but it starts with that foundation of figuring out what the other side really wants and tying it in together with what it is that we want to achieve, too.

All right, so the last final question I get, Selena, what keeps you up at night and what gets you out of the bed in the morning?

Everything. You know, I think that over the course of my lifetime, right, Having been so steeped into maternal child health, I see the infant mortality rates rising here in this community and county. Again, they came down for a period of time. So that's what's lately been keeping me up at night. It's like we have to get a better handle on this. And a lot of it is systems changes, right? It's systems changes. I can do a lot of things within the health care organization. I've done a lot of. Right. It's not health care's position in itself to make these changes to improve the outcomes. I think that's the mistake that a lot of people from the outside say, well, poor health outcomes, that's healthcare's responsibility. It's not. We're doing what we can, right? It is systems changes. It is what you're doing in all your organizations. Do you have paid leave? Right. Do you have paid leave? Do you have. Do you have insurance coverage for your. For your patients? Right. Do we need child care? We need. There's so much more that we need safe housing. You know, we need to have homes that are free from lead. These are basic things that people need to be able to not only survive, but thrive. Access to food, Right? Healthy food. We have the highest rates of food insecurity here in this state. Here in Northeast Ohio, and Ohio itself ranks as one of the top states for food insecurity. It's a lot of what I look at as well. So these are the things that kind of keep me up at night, not just because I know what I have to do with my organization, but because it's such a bigger problem that I don't have control over. But that's building. But that's why it's so important to make these things known to people in all. Across all industries to say there are things that you can do to make a change and make a difference for women and children in this community. So those things that keep me up at night, those are also the same things as I'VE told you kind of get me out of bed in the morning every day.

And Kwame, I'll have you close with the last question. How can we use positive thinking to talk about sensitive subjects like race that actually bring about change?

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. And I think we have to protect our minds, too. I think that's something that we often overlook. There's a lot of negativity out there, and we have to be very intentional about surrounding ourselves with information, telling us that we can do what it is that we're here to do. And the reality is that we should look at our track record of success. Humans, we have this negativity bias. We're always focused on the negative things, and that's important for us because it's a survival mechanism. So if I can pay attention to those scary things, the things that have hurt me in the past, and focus on those things, then I'm more likely to not make those same mistakes in the future and I'm more likely to stay safe. But we have to really work against that and figure out what are those bright spots? What are those times where I've had these conversations and it has actually worked? What are times where other people have actually moved forward and it has actually worked. And so it takes an intentional effort to focus on those positive spots so we can actually feel hopefully and drive toward that success.

Right.

Thank you. So for those of you who enjoyed what Kwame had to say, he has a book and I believe we have a slide that we will share with you. You can stay in touch by taking a photo of the QR code. And I would like you to join me in thanking both Kwame and Selena. Thank you so much for the conversation.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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