Celebrating Success in Career Transitions: Guidance from Scott Anthony Barlow

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Scott, thanks for joining us again, my friend.

I am more than a little bit excited to be here. I know before we hit the record button, we were. We were chatting and I am pumped because we get to have a new conversation that we haven't had before.

Exactly. This is great. And listeners, the conversation Scott and I were having before the. Before we actually started the podcast, we're going to put like a snippet, like some of that at the back end of this episode. So if you're at all interested to see, like, what it looks like when podcasters chat behind the scenes or buddies for a long time.

Six years, we just figured out. Apparently, over six years.

Six years. Yeah. Oh, you'd love this. Last. Last year I was talking to Kai and Kai was saying, daddy, we've known each other for a long time. Six years. That's a really long time.

So.

So in Kai's words, yes, we've known each other for a really long time.

We go way back. Thank you, Kai.

So for those of you out there who don't know. Scott. Scott, let's do a quick intro.

Yeah, we. Well, first of all, I'll Share that. The context you and I got to meet was somehow you found our brand, which is happen to your career. I don't even know that I ever asked you how you found us, to be quite honest. But really what we do as an organization is we help change work. We help change work in making it better for humans and even change how we think about work. Because let's be honest, right now, most of what work is, is. Is not allowing humans to thrive. And we want to change that. So the way that we do that is we're focused on individuals and leaders and helping to change one person at a time, their own version and what creates their. Their ideal version or extraordinary version of work. And that's. That's it. That's what we get to do every single day. Myself and my team.

This is great. And listeners, they do a great job. So make sure you check out the Happen to youo Career podcast and excited to announce. You can check out the Happen to youo Care career book, which is. Scott, would you like to break the news, the big news that we just discovered.

Yeah. So also in the.

In the before.

Before we hit record conversation, I didn't realize we had just gone number one new release on Amazon. And that is really fun. I didn't know that Kwame had to point it out to me that we just hit number one. So that is.

That is.

Okay, so here's. Here's the other backstory. You might hear it at the end. I'm really bad at celebrating sometime. I'm getting better very slowly. And this is really fun. This is actually a really big deal. And I am now. It's just now hitting me based on our conversation before, and I don't think it would have how big of a deal that is. So that is. That is fantastic. That is quite, quite amazing. I'm going to try not to cry now that.

As we.

As we start.

Yes.

Down this journey.

There we go. This is awesome. So, listeners, if you want to see Kwame's persuasion communication skills.

Yeah.

Check out the clip at the end because this. I'm glad to see that Scott's responding this way. This is great. And yes, this. This is a massive accomplishment. And so this is really exciting for me because, you know, as a former client, now friends, we're. We talk all the time. We're in a mastermind group together. I've seen you grow. You've seen me grow. It's been really exciting. And what's always been exciting for me, you know, obviously, selfishly, given my. My focus on Negotiation, communication, persuasion is just how frequently our success in our career is going to be contingent upon how well, or in some cases, how poorly we have these difficult conversations. And so really what I want to do is use your book as a case study for all of the difficult conversations that will have to happen throughout our career in order for us to be successful. And so can you just kind of set the stage with the value of difficult conversations in general for whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in your career?

Yeah. You know, here's something that I have. I've heard many different places, but I've also heard you say it, so I'm going to attribute it to you. And I've heard you say something similar to just about everything you want is on the other side of difficult conversations. And I wholeheartedly agree with that. You and I may have even had multiple conversations about that over the years. And that is, that is something that in many ways I live my life by. If we look back at many of the career changes that I've made and many of the goals that I have accomplished. Shoot. Including what we were just talking about, there are difficult conversations buried in there. You know, we just did a celebration call actually today for the book launching with, with our publisher. We did a, you know, basically zoom toast. And, and there were many times, even, even though I will tell you firsthand, the publisher that worked with Page two publishing, they were amazing, so amazing to work with. There was also many, many difficult conversations along the way when things don't work out. And was. It took a lot to be able to get to that point. But more importantly, that is what we get the opportunity to do every single day with our clients is help them navigate through two main things. Number one, determining what it is that they want, what is most important to them, what is serving them, their families, their careers. And then after they have a very unique and in depth understanding of what it is that they want in this world, going and having difficult conversations in order to impact that.

This is great. Yeah. So. And tell me if I'm on the right track here, Scott, because what I'm seeing is that you as a coach and your team, as you're working with clients, you're going to have to have difficult conversations with your clients to figure out what it is that they want. But your clients also, they have to have difficult conversations with themselves. So they have to go through, and go through a bit of an introspective process to figure out what it is that they really want and peel back and figure out why they want those things, those type of things. And then once they get that solid understanding of what they want and why, now it's all about going out and getting it. And that involves difficult conversations, too.

Yeah. And I mean, let's, let's take negotiation for just a second here as a topic, because I know that that's something you're very passionate about. That's something that is strangely one of my hobbies. I think you and I have talked about that before. Both you and I are. It feels like some of the few people on earth that really love negotiation as a. As a whole. It is. Some people golf, I don't know, a couple people negotiate. Whatever. Whatever floats your boat. And I'll say that for negotiation as a whole, it is critical that you understand what it is that you want to accomplish. Is that a fair assessment? If you go into a negotiation and you really don't understand what it is that you're trying to achieve, what you're trying to get to, what type of outcome you're trying to serve, it's going to be really difficult, even if you're an amazing negotiator, to be able to have a wonderful result on the other end. So that's, that's a truth, that simple truth. And I'll, I'll tell you one more way that we often talk about it with our, with our clients and, and many other people. Live my life by the fact that one, if you ask for what you want, you're a lot more likely to be able to get what you want. But that means you have to then know what it is that you want. One does not work without the other. So if we're going with that simple set of logic, that means any of those difficult conversations that we mentioned earlier, whether it is, you know, having a, having a conversation with your future boss for a job offer that you're trying to negotiate, and you know, whether that is based on the salary or you're literally trying to. This is something we've done with many people before, where you're literally trying to ask them to change the role and what the opportunity looks like in itself. You first have to understand what it is you want. Or if you are, you know, already in a, in an opportunity and you're working, you have a working relationship with someone and you're, you're trying to change what that relationship looks like for whatever reason, you still have to understand what it is that you want to push towards the outcome that you're trying to achieve. One again, does not work with the other. And we can. We can go and delve into how that might happen through job offer negotiations or any of those other scenarios or situations, how those. How those difficult conversations might look and how it might be different than what most people think should happen there.

Yeah, well, before. Before we get into the. The tactics of, like, the specific conversations, I want to spend a little bit more time going into the introspection portion because I think a lot of people will say, okay, yep, I get it. I need to know what I want, and I need to know why I want it. But the fact that people, like the majority of people listening would say, yeah, got it. Yeah, I'll do that. But then again, we don't do that. Right. Even though there's the recognition that it's something that should be done, we recognize that we don't do it frequently enough. And what ends up happening is you might negotiate effectively and get exactly what it is you're asking for, and then in the end, be incredibly disappointed with your newfound situation. So can we go a little bit deeper into what makes it so hard for people to ask themselves those tough questions and get the right answer?

Absolutely. One of the things that we talk about extensively in the book is five obstacles that stop people from getting to what they want, that stop people from getting to what we call meaningful and fulfilling work. And one of those particular obstacles is what we call the restaurant with no menus. Okay, so here's. Here's what I mean by that. The. Imagine for a second that you walk into a restaurant. You know, maybe. Maybe Kwame, it's you and Whitney. You walk into a restaurant, you sit down, it's date night, and it's a brand new restaurant. You've never been there before. You're feeling adventurous, so you go in, you sit down, and maitre d shows up and says, hey, you know what? Your waiter will be with you here in a moment. But just know that we can make you any. Anything that you want. Anything. Absolutely anything that you want.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate, and succeed.

Okay, so here's. Here's the thing. First of all, that might sound a little bit scary or a little bit intimidating, but you're feeling adventurous, Kwame, so you go ahead and roll with it. One of the things that we think about here is restaurants would never, ever do that. They would never, ever do that. Instead, they have a menu, they have a reader board. They have all of these different ways to communicate what it is that they offer. And the reason that they would never, ever do that is it would kill sales drastically. And even though they can make you anything that you might possibly be able to ask for, there's still some serious limitations there. Number one is that is overwhelming. If they can do anything. Oh, my goodness. Like, that is. Talk about, you know, like when you go to the Cheesecake Factory or someplace like that that has this massive menu is like a book that, you know, might damage something if you drop it on the table too hard. Well, the challenge there is. There's just so many things, it's difficult to nail it down. But what if we took from cheesecake menu size to infinite size? It's nearly impossible to be able to limit it down. Now, here's the other side of that. The other side. If you walk into the restaurant and they don't have any menus whatsoever, you can only order off what you know exists. What that means is if you don't know that they can make a nine layer dip, and you've never had a nine layer dip before, that has, you know, all the. All the onions and salsa and whatever else else is on a nine layer dip. I don't even know what's on a nine layer debt, but if you've never had that before, then it's going to be impossible for you to order it. And that is one of the biggest challenges as it relates to different types of clarity or understanding what you want. Because if you haven't seen it, if you haven't had exposure to that before, it's impossible to order, even if it's going to be great for you. And we find that the same thing is true for your career, the same thing is true for your career or anything else that you might want in your life. If you haven't had exposure to that before, it's going to be impossible for you to have it on your menu. Which means that it's not just a problem of defining and choosing what it is that you want. It's also a problem of exposing yourself to what is going to be possible for you. So that in itself is a little bit of a catch 22, as you might imagine. Right. So if you run a restaurant, first of all, get some menus, and second of all, we can talk about. We can talk about how to. How to work through that.

Yeah, I love that metaphor because you run right into the paradox of choice. If you have too many options, then you're just not going to make a selection and you're going to feel bad about it in the process.

Yeah.

Just to.

So many emotions.

Yeah, so. So let's say people are in that position because it's, you know, and this is one of those things. If you're in that privileged position where you live in a country where you have so many options, it's a blessing and a curse. What can you do? Anything. Well, that's a lot. Right. So when you run into that, how do you help people work through that?

Yeah, and you make a great point too here. There are portions of the world where people don't have those types of options. But in more and more of the world, with every day that passes, more options become available. So what do you do when you are in that very privileged situation? Well, I'll share one thing. First. Part of the reason that we created the happen to your career podcast the way that we did, we chose very early on to be able to. We don't talk. We actually don't talk about this on the. On the show frequently at all. But in how we tell the stories, part of what we're doing is trying to provide exposure to how everyday people in many different ways achieve nearly impossible, what most people would consider to be impossible types of career changes on their way to meaningful work. And the reason that we do that is that exact. That exact problem that we just discussed. The restaurant with no menus, if you don't have exposure to it, you're not going to be able to do something about it. So the reason I am sharing that, though, is because it points out that part of what you're going to need to do is expose yourself to people and stories and even potentially professions and industries that you suspect you might want but don't fully know what is out there. Now, here's. Here's something that is a misconception as it relates to careers. Many people get frustrated with their career in one way or another, and they want to throw in the towel. They want to completely change. We get. We've had thousands and thousands of conversations at this point where people are like, yeah, I have been a director of marketing and I need to no longer be in marketing. And they're ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater in so many different ways. And we might work with them. And I'll share one story really quick here. We worked with Erica, actually, who came to us in that exact situation where she was, she was a director in marketing and had a pretty bad experience in her last organization. So she's like, I need to get away from this. I need to completely move on. I don't know what it's going to be. I have no idea where we're going to go go with this, but I know it needs to be drastically different than what it is. So she's ready to entirely change. And in Erica's case, one of the things that we have realized is that she just didn't have exposure to how marketing might look differently to be able to serve her strengths. So instead of saying, okay, all right, we're now going to shift you into hr, because that's the obvious solution. Somehow we are then, no, we're not going to shift her to HR at all. This wasn't our first rodeo. So what we did was we, we took Erica and he said, okay, let's first establish what you know already that you want your career to look like. What are the parts and pieces that you must have in your career? And by the way, we use a tool that we call the Ideal career profile, and it's actually very simple. And the reason we use it is because when you think about meaningful work and you think about if you want more meaningful work, that also compensates you very well, and that's the outcome that you want, Then the challenge is not just exposure. The challenge is that that's a complex problem. And when you have a complex problem, that means that there's not one thing is the solution, which, by the way, is another thing that stops people from getting to much more meaningful work. And that then means that we have to solve many, many small problems and make many, many small decisions. So this tool, the Ideal Career profile, think about it as a checklist where you've gone through and made many micro decisions about your career. Like, for example, who are the types of people I want to spend my time around? Because, by the way, if I know who those people are, I might be able to go find organizations that have more of those types of people, because I'm spending a good chunk of my, my life working with, you know, potentially co workers. And then who are, you know, what do I want to do for my financial goals because my work, as much as I might try to, I can't separate out work from the rest of my life. They are mutually dependent. And so if I can go through and decide and make these micro decisions on all of these different areas that impact both my work and the rest of my life, then I can put those together and create what we call an ideal career profile. And think about that just as a checklist of what you must have and what creates your personal version of extraordinary. Okay, so that's the approach that we use now. Fast forward. Let's come back to Erica's story. One of the things that we realized as we did that was everything she was putting on there actually fit really nicely with marketing. It's just she didn't have the flexibility or autonomy that she really wanted. Which, by the way, leads us into some of those conversations that we were mentioning earlier. Erica, at the point in time where we got to meet her and we were working with her on what creates her personal version of extraordinary, she was already going in. I don't know why she was doing this. She was running around like, I don't know, like crazy, going to all these networking meetings and going to all these interviews and just doing everything just so she could feel like she was doing something. But as we started to clarify where she wanted to go, she started realizing that even though I've done eight different interviews, there's really only two of these organizations and opportunities that even are a close fit. So they weren't quite a total fit though. And that's where some of the difficult conversations come in. I'll tell you about one interview. She was just part of the way through the process and she started having these realizations that what I need is a lot more flexibility, a lot more autonomy. I don't want to actually go in. I want to work remotely. And now that she was learning this, she had to have midway through, after she had already shared, hey, like I'm, I'm willing to accept, you know, a, B and C. She realized that she wasn't willing to accept A, B and C. So here's what that conversation looked like for her. She went into the very next interview, this was a final stage interview, and she shared that, hey, I've realized as I've been on these eight other interviews that this organization and the people in this organization and this type of opportunity fits me very, very well. I've also realized that what I told you earlier on about being willing to not work remotely, being willing to being willing to serve on this other team that is going to require my time. You know, at three days a week from. She had some times in the evenings that it was going to require, and she didn't want to do that. So she said to them that this is, you know, I'm sorry, but this is actually not going to be a fit for me. Instead, here's what I'm looking for. And she shared some examples of different types of autonomy and flexibility. Okay, so that is a scary conversation to have. And she also went on to say, you know, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate that you have brought me this far into the process. And if this changes what you are looking for and this isn't a fit, that's okay. I felt like I needed to share that with you early on as soon as I realized, so that if. If it's not a fit, then I'm being fair to you. However, if it is, I would love to keep going because everything else lines up so, so well. Okay, so that. That is kind of a scary conversation. If you think about it like you're most of the way into this, into this role, into this opportunity, you pretty much all but have it. They've told you that you're in the final stages, you're the last candidate, and you feel like you're ruining. That is where you are emotionally. However, what ended up happening is they said, you know what? We agree, we think that this is. This is a situation where we want you. And she ended up getting an opportunity out of that where she was blatantly honest. And even though she had to have a pretty scary emotional conversation with them, she got that. She got that opportunity and got it the exact way that she wanted to. And crazy thing about it, it actually, she worked one day of work, one day a week less, because she was only working four days a week, and from an hourly basis ended up making more than what she was making at her previous director role.

Incredible. I love this. And so it just is a great example of negotiation and action from all sorts of different angles. Right. Because we have you and your team negotiating with her. And so she was saying, hey, I want to get out of marketing. And it wasn't that you completely said, hey, that's not the way to go. I'm going to completely disregard that. No, you responded empathetically. You understood where she was coming from, but at the same time gently redirected her by asking questions because you weren't trying to be prescriptive at that time. You wanted to dig deeper to figure out whether or not she was 100% certain before moving forward. I thought that was really, really good. Wanted to give you kudos on that.

Yeah, appreciate it. And we found that if we tell people what they need to do with their lives, it rarely ends well. So that is the only approach for us. We need to ask those powerful questions for us to gather information in order to help them, but more importantly for them to decide for themselves. So I appreciate the meta ness of that that you're picking up on.

Yeah, it's so important, Scott, because the thing is, again, if we take away somebody's autonomy, then their goal will be to demonstrate their autonomy in a different type of way. They're going to try to take back that agency. And a lot of times it's just kind of despite you. Right. So that it's a very, very important way to do it. And then the checklist that you had them go through, I think this is something that we could replicate in the negotiation world as well. Ye because we want to be creative. The more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve a victory. And so we understand that creativity is an important part of the negotiation process, but we often don't know how to put it into action. And really, if we take some time and take an inventory of our values, our principles, our goals, and figure out what it is that we want, big picture, it can help us to realize that there are many paths that we can take in order to get there. Otherwise we risk getting fixated and saying, for instance, I can't be in marketing anything but marketing and limiting our options prematurely. And then lastly, when it comes to Erica and the way that she described the situation and talked to the employer, the potential employer at that time, that's scary. And one of the things that's really simple, that is so often overlooked is the simple strategy of using and telling the truth.

I know, it's so weird, right? Hold on. I can't tell them that that.

Right. But that's exactly what it is. But I can't say it. Why not? Right.

Okay, so here's a fun behind the scenes fact. I can't tell you the number of. And I actually I haven't done coaching in my organization formally for about four years now. We have a wonderful team that are very amazing coaches. However, occasionally I've still got un negotiation conversations because I love it so much. I just can't get away from it. And I cannot tell you the number of times where people will say, well, here's what I'M here's what I'm feeling. I feel like, you know, I can't accept this because I really need this level of autonomy. And I want to because they have been so wonderful throughout this process. And, you know, I'll let them say what they're saying. And at the end of it, I'm like, could you just say that? Could you. What would be wrong with telling them that? And they're like, well, I guess. I guess I could do that. The truth. So leave with the truth to your point.

Yes, exactly. It's so simple, but it's really scary. And so I was, I was reading this book this morning called I Think It's Feeling Good. It's an old school psychology book, actually. Pete Macaitis recommended it to our mutual friend how to Be awesome Job podcast. And so one of the things that they talk about that leads to mental challenges, he's focusing on depression, is various cognitive distortions. And it's these lies that we tell ourselves that we believe that hold us back. And so a cognitive distortion might tell us here, in this case, I can't tell the truth. They'll hate me. They'll get so mad. And in this situation, that type of mentality is what can hold you back. It's not true, but we believe it's true. And then we're guided by our feeling, which leads us to hold us back in these situations, which has a negative impact on us and our ability to get what we. We want, our relationships as a whole and the other person. Because now they're not seeing what the truth is. And you're really taking away their autonomy and ability to problem solve with accurate information. But if you just start to learn to challenge those things that are holding us back from expressing ourselves in the way that we really want to, then you start to realize, wait a second. How do I know that's true? Why do I. Why do I believe that they will hate me because of this? Why do I believe that this is the wrong thing to say? Oh, I don't have any evidence to substantiate it. This is one of those cognitive distortions. There is another way. And so I think, again, that's just another angle of that internal negotiation. It has to come up frequently throughout this process because we're changing at all times. Our emotions will come up in unexpected ways, and we have to be able to check in and adjust as necessary in order to get what we, we want.

I think that's one of the best ways that I have utilized other partners, whether it be A coach or a therapist, even in some cases, or just helping me realize when I'm in the trap of cognitive distortion, that is in many ways for me. I'll. I'll speak for me, but I've seen it for other people, too, where I am absolutely my own worst enemy. And I feel like much of life is catching, catching when I'm in that cycle in so many different ways. So I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Yeah, I mean, listeners like we, like I mentioned, Scott and I have been in a mastermind group for. Together for like, the, like, what, three, four years?

Something.

I don't know, basically. No, like five years. It's insane. And so actually you'd recognize some of the guys. So. Dave Stahoviak, coaching for leaders, Pete Makaitis, how to be awesome at your job. Chris Deferio, the Keys to the Shop podcast, and Lisa Cummings as well. Lead through strengths. And so we all bounce ideas off of it, off of each other. And I think for the business problems that we face, probably a solid 50% of them, at least.

Just.

Problem. Yes, yes.

True story.

Great. It's 100% true. But I think that that demonstrates that when it comes to our approach in these conversations, it's so valuable to be able to bounce ideas off of other, because the things that we believe, they ring so true in our minds, and we stay in the echo chamber of our own brain to the point where these lies that we tell ourselves sound really alluring. And it's really important to have people that you trust, whether it's a coach, a mentor, or friend, to bounce ideas off of before you have these tough conversations, just to make sure you're seeing things clearly and to make sure that you're articulating things the right way. Because what sounds good to you might not sound that great to others, you know? So you want to make sure that you are approaching it in a fashion that is as objective as possible.

I love that. Okay, so here's not relevant at all, but I'm going to say it anyways. The thing I love about having every conversation that we've ever had, Kwame, even way back when, where I was supposed to be your coach, is that I always learned something every time I talk to you. That is, hands down, my favorite thing with chatting with you. And this has certainly not disappointed, both on the side of celebrations as well as three or four other things.

I appreciate that, man. Thank you. No, I think that's the beauty of conversation, right? We learn through each other. And one of the things I always say is that a conversation should be transformative for everybody involved. And a lot of times we go into these negotiations and we're just like, yeah, the person, the person that needs to transform is you. So I'm going to find a way for you to admit that you're wrong and change your mind. Right? But if we're not going in there and saying, hey, let me change myself, I have something to learn too, like, then, then we're missing out.

So let's talk about that for just a second. That is what you just said there, I think is critical where we go in. And so many people think that negotiation is adversarial. I think that's the word that I'm looking for. It feels like it is conflicting or adversarial type of dynamic or relationship. And my experience, although I have had what I would consider to be successful adversarial type of negotiations, is that most of the time it's not necessary, nor is it as valuable as it could be. If you're taking on a partnership type approach. And I find this to be true no place more than when you're speaking about your career. Obviously that's my largest area of expertise, so I'm a little biased towards that. But think about it for a second. If it's a job offer negotiation or a partnership type of negotiation where you're entering into a literal partnership, all of those situations require that on the outcome on the other side of the negotiation, whatever that looks like, the initial negotiation we'll call it, you have to develop and cultivate a wonderful working relationship. Otherwise it's kind of for nothing. Which means that if you're not, if you're, if you're not going into it, looking at it from a partnership type of approach, then it is setting the long term up for failure. So here's a couple of different ways that I found work very, very well to create a partnership. One is exactly what you had mentioned earlier, which is instead of trying to convince other people of your agenda or saying that, hey, you're the one who needs to transform, you're the one who needs to conform. This is going to be a transformative conversation. But not for me. Instead of going into it with that type of mentality, going into it to collect information, that is one of the most under, in my opinion. I'm curious what. I'm going to ask you this question here in a minute, but I believe that is the most underrated approach for negotiation. Going in with the intent to collect information and understand and Create a potential outcome that's wonderful and really serves both parties. And if you're looking at it from that partnership type of approach, it just changes so much, especially when we're talking about career opportunities in particular. Now here's a, here's a couple examples or scenarios. We had one person we were working with, his name was Mike. And Mike had multiple offers on the table, all of which were pretty decent. But Mike also wanted to, Mike also wanted to lead a entire team of people for the first time in his life. He was, you know, kind of mid career and hadn't really shifted into that leadership role. And both of these opportunities were missing that, that. So Mike went into these conversations and it wasn't just one and done. It wasn't a, okay, here's what I want. Now how are we going to get to that? Instead, he went to a series of conversations to collect information, asking questions like, under what circumstances could this be possible? You know, sharing his calls. One of my prerogatives, Mike would tell them, is I really want to be able to lead a team. Here's the reasons why I want that. A, B and C. Under what circumstances could that be possible for this opportunity? Because everything else seems to line up really very well and I appreciate that. Or in another conversation he would ask, how could we make this happen? And one person actually told him, I can't make that happen. So we coached Mike to be able to say, okay, that's totally okay. Who in the, who in the organization can make that type of decision? What do we need to do? Notice the use of the word we. Partnership. It's a partnership. It is not you versus me. It is a we. We need to figure this out together. Who do we need to talk to in order to understand how that could be possible? So there's a couple of, some of my favorite questions that completely transform the dynamics of the conversation and even the ways to ask them that help to build that type of partnership and create totally different outcomes. Outcomes that seem impossible. Well, let's fast forward really quick. In Mike's situation, he got both of those organizations to pre set up how he would lead a team in less than six months and already had a plan. They gave him a plan of what that went, what that would look like, which is, is pretty cool. That was a totally different, totally different scenario. It wasn't like a 90 page plan with all bullet points and everything. It was a, well, here's how we can make that happen and here's what you would need to do. And he got them to commit to that before ever saying yes.

Incredible. I think that's. That's the perfect example. Right. Because, again, it shows the value of taking the time, thinking about what it is that you're wanting, being very clear, articulating that to the other side, and being okay with realizing that sometimes these deals don't work out. And we have to remember a negotiation isn't the art of deal making. It's the art of deal discovery. And so, through our curiosity, we're having these conversations, gathering information, sharing information so both parties can have enough information to determine whether or not a deal exists. And maybe the deal on the table isn't what it needs to be. And maybe what we could do is work together to make it better for both parties. And then maybe we explore and then we find out, hey, it doesn't work out. No harm, no foul. But we still built our relationship through the process, so if something else comes down the line later, we're still in a good position. And so you're absolutely right. When it comes to negotiation, the first step is information gathering. But again, I think sometimes people don't ask questions because they're afraid of what they're going to find. Sometimes they just want to focus on what it is that they want. But, yes, that information gathering is becoming a lost art.

Yeah, it is so hard to do it in that type of scenario, too. We're talking about difficult conversations. Well, here's the reality that I didn't share about Mike's scenario is that he had worked for months on creating these opportunities. And for so many people, if you haven't done this many times before, when you get to that stage, you're sort of in the 23rd mile of the marathon and all the emotion is hitting and you feel like, I've done all this work. What if it doesn't work out? And all of the. All of the things we tell ourselves and the stories we tell ourselves that we just mentioned a minute ago. So that's right where Mike was at. And we spent hours helping him prep for these scenarios and even just rewording how he might ask these questions in a way that he could get comfortable and he could get his head wrapped around it so that he didn't. He didn't feel like he was throwing it all away. And more importantly, we got him comfortable enough to where he could approach it from that partnership type of dynamic, where it's not just a him asking for something, but him really, truly being curious and comfortable enough to be curious so that he could really help put Together, a deal that was advantageous on both sides. And clearly it worked. But it was no small amount of effort, especially from where Mike's head was at at the time.

Yeah. Oh man, this is great. This is great. Well, I know we're coming up on time and Scott, you know, we could talk forever because we do that pretty frequently.

Every time. Yeah.

But before you go, can you remind the listeners about your podcast, the new book, and how they can work with you?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So the new book, which apparently is number one on Amazon right at the very this very moment. Woohoo. That's called Happen to youo Career. An unconventional approach to career change and meaningful work. You can find it at any place, not just Amazon, but any place where you buy books. And the podcast is of the same name, Happen to youo Career. It's been around for almost 10 years. At this point, we are the largest podcast on career change and meaningful work in the world. As crazy as that seems, I guess we should celebrate that too. I.

That's a.

Okay. I'm learning, Kwame.

I'm learning.

And one of the best ways to get started with us is go to our website, Happen to your career dot com. But we mentioned earlier the idea of you need to know what you want, to be able to ask for what you want. No matter how great you are at negotiating, you have to understand what is the outcome you're trying to get to overall. You have to be able to have exposure to understand what could be on your personal menu. So one of the easiest ways we've created to get started in doing that is we put together an eight day mini course that you get when you put in your email. You get an email a day that asks a couple of questions and just helps chunk out some of these micro decisions we talked about earlier. And you can see that on our website, happentoyourcareer.com or you can go directly to figureitout co. That's figureitout co. Put in your email. You'll get an email for eight days. We've had almost 50,000 people through that course and we've had very, literally thousands of emails thanking us for. For that particular. That particular resource. And it won't be the magic bullet, I promise, but it will be a wonderful step in helping you understand what it is that you really want to need in your career. So I would encourage you to do that. Thank you, Kwame. I appreciate this. It was super fun.

Yeah, man, it was a blast as always. Really appreciate you coming in and sharing your knowledge with us. And best of luck with the continued book launch.

Thank you. We'll see you later.

Bye. Did you know, by the way, you probably already do, but number one new release in job hunting.

For real?

Yeah, man. Right now.

What?

Can you take a screenshot?

I'm trying to get that up. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta snag these things because Amazon doesn't tell you. No.

Dang it. Amazon on. No, I did not know that actually.

Yeah, man, that's huge. Number one new release. You better.

So we are. We are funny. Not so funny story, actually. But we're gonna go with it because apparently it's working out. Did not know that Prime Day just happened. So I started getting all of these client emails saying, hey, it's totally okay because you sent us a like, separate bonus copy of the book because we did this whole send in your receipt thing. We'll send you a limited edition copy. But those same people are like, you should know that on Amazon it's saying it's a month out before I'm going to get my book. And we're like, what? Are you serious? So we talked to our publisher and talked to the distribution and everything. Well, as near as I can tell, they, they bumped everything for Prime Day and just across the board made a lot of categories two weeks to a month out for delivery, which they did last Prime Day too. I remember looking at it like, I'm not going to wait a month for this thing. That's prime. Are you serious? Anyhow, so long story short, we ended up actually, we ended up actually going and making a listing through KDP as well in order to streamline the shipping and distribution. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So it, the, the potentially bad byproduct, was it released through Amazon earlier than it hits every place else? It doesn't actually hit any place else until tomorrow.

Yeah.

However, apparently it's working because we're already number one in job hunting.

That's huge, man. That's.

Thank you for pointing that out. No, and I.

No worries. Here's the link if you were looking for it.

That'll make my team really happy, by the way.

Yes.

You have no idea. They're going to be pumped.

They should be. I mean, that's huge. That's big.

It's not that it is, but let's be honest, it's not that hard to manipulate the Amazon system to.

I was thinking about that too, man. And then I realized for us, it's not that hard to do. But if you just have like some other like career expert who's Like, I am a career expert with no audience, no nothing. They would have a hell of a time trying to get that. So I think I was thinking about this because I, like, I realized how pumped my staff was when we were hitting these numbers, like, move to tears. And I was like, this is an example of us kind of getting desensitized to accomplishment.

Is it?

A little bit. I think you're right about that. But I'm curious what you mean by that. Should we just be recording this? I don't know.

Oh, we're recording now. Sweet. We'll see what comes. You know, we might flow and put this as a bonus at the back. But I think it's like, I think about some of the things that we have done this year. Yeah. And I think if we were to go back in time five years and share this to the old version of ourselves, we would, like, lose our minds. Like, what? Are you serious? Yeah. Because think about how long this was on your list that you wanted to do, and now you've had so many other accomplishments that are comparable that you hit number one new release on Amazon. You're like, yeah, thanks, Kwame.

Thanks for pointing that out. All right, so now do we do the interview?

Exactly.

That's really nice. Okay, so let me ask you about that. What do you think that is for you personally? Not, like the, you know, science and psychology portion of it, but for you. Why do you think that happens for you? Because it definitely happens for me, obviously. We just proved that.

I think there is a part of it that is a bit, like, genetic. I've always been like this, where achievement for me is more than is. It's more like oxygen than something really to celebrate. You know, I don't celebrate every breath. It's like, this is what should be happening. The most I feel is relief. And, like, my friends and family and my therapist have been saying, like, that's kind of messed up, man. It's okay to celebrate your wins. And I think a little bit of it is me not feeling like I can let my guard down, because if I get. If I let that. That positivity in, it's like, do I still maintain that hunger? And so I've actually been forcing myself to celebrate and enjoy and kind of revel in the moment a little bit more, like, actually telling myself to do it and scheduling time, like, to do it. Like, you know, you're going to enjoy this win, and this is how you're going to do it. And then the other thing I've been doing is kind of a bit of a meta. And a meta kind of approach is like, I would take the younger version of myself through a walk through my life. So, like, the version of Kwame who's just, like, really working hard in law school and in the graduate program, like, envisioning what life could be. And so I go back in time and just say, hey, this is what life is like. This is what your career is like. This is what your family is like. And all this stuff and kind of thinking about a conversation with young Kwame is. That is what gets me excited. I'm like, man, I would be very impressed.

That resonates with me. And I. I find now that I'm hearing you say that, that is one of the only ways I can get myself to really stop. And I have this conversation all the time with another friend where it's like, did you ever think that seven years ago that this would happen, Whatever it is, you know, launch a book or have 12 people on the team or, I don't know, insert your. Whatever, your accomplishment here, but only if I proceed it by that phrase with that triggering somehow, I have a really hard time. I'm, like, just ready to move on. Like you had said, ready to move on to the next thing. And it feels more like, okay, well, I'm still breathing. Don't need to think much about that. Like. Like, fantastic.

Exactly. Interesting. And what ends up happening is you kind of live a life of really, really high accomplishment, but constantly feeling almost chronically dissatisfied because the goalposts just keep on moving. It's like, what was good enough before? Once you've achieved, it automatically becomes not good enough, because if I have it, it can't be good enough.

Okay, so let me. Let me share something with you really quick. We did a local version of a launch party, and I did not want this at all. Did not want it. Actually tried to not do it probably five or six times, and eventually decided, my neighbor, actually, of all people, he may never even read the book. I don't know. But of all people, he's like, this is. This is a big deal. Like, why don't you at the very least, get just a bunch of friends together and let's celebrate this thing? Why are you. Why are he kind of. If I would have been any closer, you, like, would have grabbed me and shook me or something. But he's like, why are you not doing that? I'm like, fair, fair.

You're right.

So we ended up. That ended up being the forced celebration, if you will. And I knew at that point in time, this was about a month ago, that afterwards, I would have enjoyed it and have loved to do it, but honestly, it felt. Going into it, it felt like, why would I do that? Why would I spend the time to, like, let's. Let's instead focus our efforts on how do we get the book out to more people so we can help more people and we can do the next things and all the. Yeah. So for celebration. That is the moral of the story for me.

Yeah, dude. Yeah, it's. Think about it. I. I completely empathize with that because it's like, so what do we do to celebrate? Celebrate. We celebrate with more work. That's what we do. Don't waste my time with this. Let's get back to work. You know, like, I feel you, man. I feel you. It's tough, but I have to force myself to slow down and pause and appreciate. And I've realized, hey, shocker. It doesn't diminish my ambition.

Yes, I know. So weird. Like, all the silly reasons that I don't know that manifest when I'm thinking about why not to celebrate. Yeah. So recovering celebrator getting it sounds like you are, too. We have not had this conversation before, by the way.

I know this is interesting. I mean, it's. But it makes a lot of sense, and it's not surprising either, after, like, all of the mastermind groups and all the times we've been. What is that, five years now? Six. Six. Six years.

Has it been six years?

Yeah, man.

Because that sounds insane.

You were the coach I went with, like, when I was starting. So that was 2016.

Was that your first coach? I think I knew that, but I don't think I had really thought about it in those terms. Oh, I'm sorry. The first one.

The first one, yes. So this is good. You didn't scare me away.

No joke. Oh, my goodness.

Oh, this is great. This is great. Maybe we put this at the back as, like, a bonus little thing. I don't know.

Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. Episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out the of of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you. And I will see you in the next episode.

I'll catch you later.