Changing the Game: Understanding the Landscape of Name, Image, and Likeness Deals with Chimdi Chekwa

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Chim, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, man. I'm excited.

Yeah, me too. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So, Chimichua, my background, I got a business degree at Ohio State, got my mba. During that time I also played college football, was able to play six years in NFL and now I do a few different things. I'm an entrepreneur. I work for a strategic intelligence firm that does market research and consulting and I'm a part of a new startup in the NIL space that tracks objective metrics for a player to really determine what their marketability is and be able to identify what is my value from a name, image and likeness standpoint.

This is great, man. Yeah, we are excited to have you today because talking about these sports deals and new opportunities that exist for college athletes and actually all athletes now with this new NIL revolution that we've stumbled upon, it's really exciting and you have been in this world your entire career in one way or another. So we're excited to get your perspective and as far as setting the stage for the audience, first we're going to talk about what these name, image and likeness deals are and how it's different from the past. We'll start off with a brief overview. There's. Then we'll talk about the mistakes that people make when they're advocating for themselves and then wrap it up by talking about what we should actually do in these negotiations to put yourself in a winning position. So let's start off with just an overview of the landscape for nil deals. So what are the basic things that people need to know in order to understand what these deals are?

So I would say, first of all, just understanding that a college athlete, a player in the past, really couldn't make money off their name, image and likeness. They couldn't get paid for the sport for their performance. They had an agreement with the university was you had to play this sport potentially on a scholarship or whatever that situation was. But ultimately, if you were to make money off that performance, it would deem you ineligible to actually play. Ever since a few years ago, players can now earn some type of money for what they do, giving them the power of taking their name, image and likeness and be able to earn revenue off of that. It's an opportunity for a player to connect with brands or any other interested party who sees them as a valuable opportunity to marketing with them or some of those other things. And it allows them to now be able to take that value that they're generating and actually do something with it to generate some type of income for it. So it's a new landscape now, allows the player to make money off their name, image and likeness.

Yeah, it's exciting because when you think about the ncaa, we understand that they're making a lot of money off of the athletes. Universities are making incredible amounts of money off the athletes. It's exciting to see now that athletes are having that opportunity. So, Jim, when we hang out all the time, I realize I haven't asked you this question and maybe it was a little bit too hurtful. Maybe it hits a sore spot, but I'm still intrigued. So have you thought about how different your collegiate life would have been if this decision was made? Like, way like when we back in school?

Most certainly. So I don't know if you remember my senior year was the year of the tattoo game. There was a certain amount of players, they got free tattoos. That was like the headline, some memorabilia sold for dollars. Which when you look back now, it's minimal in terms of how much money they actually make compared to how much guys are making today. It would have been a Different world. I think my senior year, I was one of five players whose jerseys were sold in stores. It was great seeing people walk around the number five jersey in that year. But as a business student, I started to understand like, somebody's making money off this 5 jersey, but I'm the one who's actually putting in the work to make it worth something. So, yeah, it would have been a completely different situation. And at the very minimal, I would have been able to more engage with those in the business world and try to figure out, okay, what can I do outside of football to start building something that can be long lasting and begin to explore entrepreneurship much earlier than after completely done with college football.

That is a great answer. And I'll tell you, man, that's your maturity compared to me. Because if I were in your position, I would have been. Cause we married our sweethearts from college. Right. So I would have just been thinking, I thought you were going to say, man, I would have taken Seattle to like these nice restaurants. Not just on the meal plan all the time. That's what I would have been doing. It's like, hey, we're going to eat some real food, not just burritos all the time.

Yeah, I mean, it would have been some flossing too, man. I probably would have bought some jewelry and some things as well. But at that minimum, I would have been able to really understand what it looks like to be able to launch a business, what it looks like to actually try to grow revenue and actually create something. There would have been some money being spent at that age, being in college, not a ton of responsibility outside of schoolwork and football, and I would have did some damage there.

I wanted to make sure we're on the same page.

Cool.

Let's talk about some of the challenges people are facing with this. Because every opportunity we got the positive sides, but we also have some of the negative sides. And so it's essentially like the wild, wild west now. So the doors have been blown open so we can see the images of people who are getting paid what they deserve and they're actually able to get a little bit of money while they're in college, which is great. While they're making money for so many other people. But then we've also seen some of the dark sides, some of the mistakes that people are making. So based on what you've seen, what are some of the biggest mistakes you're seeing people make when it comes to these negotiations?

Yeah, I think just like anything new, I want to be clear with Nil, it's not the school can't actually perform it. It's really kind of in the player's hands to be able to go out there and. And attract potential businesses and others that may want to partner up, maybe brand their company so that that player can make money. So with that, there's not a lot of structure to the area. It's relatively new. There's not much in terms of standards. There are some tools out there, like a clock machine and others that are trying to provide that structure. So with a lack of structure, you think a young player, most players don't have a plan for it. Right. So going into an agreement with a brand, not understanding what their value actually is, there's a lot of players who are taking very little money for something that adds significant value for a potential brand. Players that are trying to get too much money, where these brands don't really value them in that way. It's hard because there's no specific standard. There's not a lot to look at to say based on what I've done, what my viewership is, what my name recognition is. This is what I actually get for a specific type of engagement. And that's a challenge.

Yeah, man, for sure. And that's the thing, because when people would complain about the NCAA rules, these rules are problematic now. The rules have been removed. And now it's like, well, now that's problematic too, in some ways because we have a complete lack of structure. And you're right. When you think about young student athletes coming into these negotiations, they're going to be negotiating with people who have more business experience than them. So that could put you in a position, if you don't understand your value, where you could be taken advantage of. So we have the side of it where people are not getting paid what they deserve. Still, even though that these rules have been lifted, then we have the other side, because sometimes people might be overvaluing themselves and the market says that you are worth something, but not that. And those people could miss out on opportunities because they are approaching the negotiation too aggressively. And I think that's what is so exciting about Clout Machine, the company that you're starting, because it gives people an opportunity to have some kind of objective metrics for these deals. So can you tell the listeners about Clout Machine and what you and your team are trying to achieve with that?

Yeah. So with Cloud Machine, we track objective metrics pretty much to begin to determine what an athlete's name, image and likeness value is. Right. So metrics like how much does A drink sell for in a stadium that you play with, how close are you playing to your hometown? Some of these elements that what is your viewership? Right? Some of these elements that begin to give you clear information or clear indicators of how these aspects can actually translate to market value, specifically in the market that you're playing with. And we use that value system really to begin matching brands with the athletes and allowing the brands on one side to generate an roi, navigate nil, understand what they're paying for, who they should pay, why, and how can I maximize this opportunity and then allowing the player to understand this is what my market really looks like, how can I impact it, how can I improve it? Do I need to get on social media more and improve my social media analytics performance aspect? That's one thing. But how can I leverage some of these other pieces that will drive opportunities and value for me? And then we could take both that data and the deal flow to start to provide the universities, the collectives that represent the universities from an nil standpoint and the agents to also get more clarity to the marketplace from a university standpoint, dealing with compliance and being able to communicate to ncaa. This is why a player is getting these types of deals is very important for the agent being able to take deals to brands and say, similar to like a social media influencer or others, they can take these metrics and say, this is what this player is impacting. He's looking for potential deal opportunities. And this is what the ROI looks like for you and for the collectives to be able to explain to a parent, this is how much your kid is worth based on what we see in the marketplace. I know one of the big challenges is there's no tools out there really determining what players are worth based on who they are. Right. And we can compare players across different markets, different states, and explain why this player is positioned in this way from a marketability standpoint. It doesn't stop there right now that you know now you can figure out, how can I impact it, how can I grow? That I think is important and is powerful when you are trying to do deals and trying to negotiate deals with brands as a young individual player. So I think it's a useful tool in that way.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops Tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Absolutely. Listen, when you're selling your startup, you don't just say, really chill. I think this is a useful tool, man. This is game changing. This is absolutely game changing. Cause when you think about it as an athlete, if we're on the field, we have some metrics, okay, I can see my statistics week to week, I understand what it is that I'm trying to accomplish. But then we come into the business world, it's completely different. The metrics are murky in a lot of ways, especially because this is a brand new industry with brand new opportunities. So now what you're doing is you're creating a world where the student athletes can say, okay, if I want to get better deals, I need to work on these things. I need to post more frequently. I might need to actually change what it is I'm posting about. Because like you said, proximity to your hometown and how big you are in your little pocket, that changes your market value, right? So you can give people a little bit more specificity when it comes to increasing their deal value. But the other thing too, that I think is really fascinating that you said is that it shows the complexity of these deals. Because it's not just players and brands that are going to be utilizing this. Because you talked about the universities, ncaa, the collectives, the agents, the parents and the players, all of these people want to understand the marketplace a lot better. So now everybody is more well informed, which makes it less likely for people to be taken advantage of inappropriately in these deals.

I mean, we're at a time where data is being processed in mass amounts. And this is going to continue to grow and grow. And in any space where there's lack of standards, there's lack of structure, like the nil space, you talked about how there was rules that outlawed it completely, and then they just opened it up and said, do what you got to do. And everybody's like, but we need some rules. You know what I'm saying? But the reality is there's so much lack of structure. And what Cloud Machine does, it starts to create that infrastructure for the space. And I truly believe it allows for the space to grow. When we have a common language where everybody can say, okay, based on this score, this is the type of player he is in terms of marketability. This is what he can impact. This is the return on investment. This is, this is the value. When you have that common language now, you're able to actually do deals, even if you're a brand that says, look, I'm selling a product that sports related or may not be sports related, but I know I'm in a market where a lot of people are college sports fans. I think it's over like 50 something percent, 60% of the US are college sports fans. It's a great opportunity. But as a brand, it's like, who do I pay, what type of campaign do I do or what type of engagement do I do? Do I go pay the quarterback or do I pay the offensive lineman? Right? And it's challenging to be able to do that. And then when you decide, okay, this is what we want to do now, how do I actually communicate to the player, right? So I send something out there, then the player is like, that's not enough, I need more. So now you're going back and forth for maybe a couple weeks. And honestly, there's times during the season where a player's peak value maybe after just a big game he's had, right? You want a deal to happen immediately. You want the ability to, to make this, to have this deal flow happen immediately. The least amount of friction is possible. That's kind of our approach. Automated score just continuously generated throughout the season. There's going to be some peaks, right? Guy just has a big play to win, the game picks up. You can send them a deal immediately and you can understand how much is going to cost, right? You can understand what the range of value is for this type of campaign, this type of engagement. You can send the deal immediately and he can accept or deny or that process of communicating back and forth is much quicker and there's more clarity and hopefully more and more can happen and we can grow the space more and more. And I truly believe when you create this type of infrastructure, you allow more money to flow into the space, which allows for more opportunity, not just in sports, but related to the nil space in general, which I'm really, really pushing for long term.

Yeah. Oh, this is exciting because when we chatted last time, that was one of the most interesting things about it. The fact that clout machine actually updates your score every week. Because just like in any other negotiation, the power dynamics will shift with time. But in college athletics, it shifts week to week, week to week. You know, that's really important. And if you understand the value of time, then it could really push that sense of urgency. Because I could see, for example, an athlete who is busy with being an athlete and working on school and all of those things and then somebody comes to you with a deal, that's okay. You're like, it's not my priority right now and we might push it back a week, which seems insignificant. If you catch an injury or just have a bad game, you lose a lot of leverage. So that element of timing is really important, super important.

And that's kind of been the focus from our end. It's like, how can we improve the space? How can we make it better? How can we make deal flow simpler? How can we make it so that the brands can actually understand what an ROI opportunities look like? And how can we make it so that the players who are very, very busy, right, These are players and typically when they're most valuable in terms of name, image and likeness is when they have the least amount of time. How can we reduce some of the friction to help these brands navigate actually bringing deals to players in a way that aligns with their limited schedules and limited opportunities to actually perform some of these engagements. So that's been kind of our focus. Being a former athlete, I understand some of those challenges. So that's been my focus in advancing the clout machine opportunities out there.

I love it. And now let's paint a picture for some student athletes before we go about what the negotiation process could look like. So let's say they say, you know what, I like this, I'm going to get on cloud machine. Great. So I have a better idea of what my market value is now. A brand reaches out to me, they're making an offer. I think I deserve more and I want to begin this process. What advice would you have for them for how to go about handling that negotiation?

I think my advice would be one to understand what you're looking for. I think one of the challenges is a lack of planning in terms of how do I maximize nil opportunities? Because to be honest, a lot of nil opportunities just don't exist. Right. So it's hard to create a plan when you're not getting the amount of opportunity that you would hope for. Right. So random one off opportunities come and then you kind of just go with the flow. But I would say create a plan. What do I want to do? How many deals do I want to make? When do I actually have time to execute on some of these things? It may be time just for social media posts and Stuff like that during a certain period. Other times it may be time for me to go physically go somewhere and do autograph signing or talk to a group or something like that. So have a plan for what type of engagements you would like to accept. Right from there, I would say with that plan, understand what that marketability looks like. What is your value look like? What would you be willing to accept for this type of engagement? And then what is happening with your peers. Just to give yourself a framework there. The biggest thing is be prepared to be responsive. If a brand reaches out. Communicate clearly and directly those things that you're looking for, those things that you want, those things that you need. Look, this is my schedule. It's going to be hard for me to do these types of deals during this time period. My only opportunity is on this day when we're free. And this is my price. Right? Cloud Machine isn't perfect. It's a tool that continues to collect data, collect information and update. Right. With the most relevant data and information. You may think, look, my value is a little bit higher than what is out there. So I would say if someone sends you a deal and you feel differently about it, essentially, Reinker, what you think your value is for that type of engagement? Look, I'm not. 1500 is, thank you for the offer, but for these types of deals, I'm at 2 grand 2,500, right? So now they can get that feedback. They can understand what it would take to actually get you in, be able to move forward with an opportunity like that. So off the top of my head, I think those are. That's the advice that I would give to a player, but it starts with a plan. Everything to me starts with having a plan and using information to be able to create that plan.

I love this. And this is telling me, man, we got to get you back on because your MBA is showing. This is great, man. I love this because it starts with a plan and we're recognizing that the negotiation process starts with you getting a clear understanding of what it is that you want and what it is that you'll accept. Because otherwise now, like you said, at the time when you're busiest, that's when the deals are going to come in. And now you're having to evaluate what types of things you're willing to do, what types of things you won't do. So talking it over with your team, your family, friends, before these opportunities start coming will help you to make better decisions in the moment. And then being responsive, that's challenging. It's easier said than done. Just being able to understand that, hey, being a college athlete is hard and being a college athlete who is also a brand, that is harder. But in order to get the deal, there are certain times where you want to have to exert more effort and time just to make it happen. So I think just giving people this outline that is super powerful, man. I appreciate this. I know we're at time and I am using a lot of restraint and discipline, not pushing further, but I appreciate you taking the time. Jim, this is really helpful. So before you go, can you let the listeners know again about Cloud Machine and how people can get in touch?

Yeah. So Cloud Machine, we determine a player's value, utilize a marketability score and collecting objective metrics. You can go on cloudmachine.com to get more information about the players platform and yeah man, we excited to grow it. We think it's going to be a huge asset, a huge tool, grow the overall space which I'm individually passionate about. But yeah, Again, Cloud Machine cloudmachine.com Ton of information, ton of opportunity, you can reach out to us and yeah, that's it, man. I'm just appreciate you having me on, man. And just excited to talk about.

Yeah man, I appreciate you too. This was great. And listeners will put all of the details details in the description of this episode. Chimney. Really appreciate it, brother. Thanks again.

Thank you, man.

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