Changing your Energy: Kimberly Spencer's Strategies for Transforming Difficult Conversations

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Kim, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me on the show, Kwame. I'm so honored to be here at nearly a thousand episodes. Holy moly. Congratulations.

Thank you very, very much. It's been a long journey, but we're still here, still at it. So.

Still standing, that Elton John song.

Exactly. Yeah. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah. So I have two companies. I have the Crown Yourself coaching company where we focus on working with the disruptors, the visionary leaders, on really transforming their subconscious stories to shift their decision making strategies from fear to faith. And I don't mean faith in the religious standpoint. I mean faith is in like looking at the trajectory, the 10 year vision, the long term plan, rather than just the bottlenecks of what happened month to month or the challenges that we face every quarter as business owners. And then I also from that and from the success that I had with that company, our lead generation. For our coaching company with podcast guesting, we developed a second business, the Communication Queens Agency, where we do strategic matchmaking between podcast guests and the podcasts that Bring not only the brand awareness but also the some bottom line to our clients.

That is amazing. So kudos on both of them. And as somebody who has used a business coach, I know how important that is and also how challenging it is to be a coach. And as somebody who's been on a ton of different podcast, I recognize how hard that is to get on other shows. And we continuously get good guests for your shows that both of those businesses incredibly important.

Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm in the business of transforming people's stories and I do believe that with podcasts. I love podcasts simply because when you surround yourself with podcasts like yours, Kwame, where you're able to hear different perspectives from different people, suddenly it changes in our neurology, our belief system of what's possible. And suddenly when we can shake the frame of what it takes to survive and how we can grow, how we can thrive, that changes everything. It all comes from conversation.

Absolutely. And speaking of conversations, we had an awesome conversation beforehand. We found out that we have kids of approximately the same age, six and two for you and seven and two for me. And I also asked the question about what's giving you the most energy right now? And your answer was fascinating. Can you tell the listeners what is giving you the most energy as it relates to negotiation and communication right now?

It's being able to look inside myself for especially when negotiation and communication is challenged, being able to look inside myself and see how am I projecting my own insecurities, my fears, my doubts, My inner child wounds my shadow into the conversation, into the space where something is manifesting unconsciously and unhappily for me. And how can I shift that within myself and look at myself as the cause of, and thus change the communication to address that and change how I show up in that situation? Because when you change the energy of how you show up for that especially an energy can change and just a perspective shift. Instead of thinking, oh, my kid is a brat for wanting, for being a demanding six year old, thinking, oh my gosh, he's really struggling and in pain right now with just being able to process big emotions. And it's not that he's trying to do that, it's just. And seeing, oh, that's a reflection of my own stuff from my own inner child, from my own traumas, from growing up with an addict where I didn't feel seen and I didn't feel heard. And so I don't like feeling powerless in a conversation and from when being able to look inside ourselves and Ask those questions to see, okay, is the conversation is that we're in if it's not resulting in what I am wanting. First of all, am I clear on what I want? Do I know exactly what I want from this conversation? And secondly, what am I bringing to the table? What is my energy? What is my presence? What is my ambition in this conversation? What is my goal? And what am I trying to get? What am I trying to receive? What am I trying to give in this space?

This is so fascinating and just a quick aside here, Kim. Tell me if I'm right on this, because it seems like there is a through line throughout everything that you're doing, because you have the coaching where it starts with the story and reinterpretation of the story. Then we have the podcast guesting where you're helping people connect but also sharing their stories in a powerful way. And right here, what we're recognizing is that sometimes our subconscious tells us stories in the middle of a difficult conversation. And hard for us in the moment to distinguish between the voices in our head and the voices from the other person.

And especially because our brains are meaning makers. So we make meaning out of every situation. So not always does it mean that the person you're having a conversation is a narcissist. Sometimes it means that there is some inner healing that needs to be done within you to feel seen, heard and valued. And when you can bring that to the table and also bring your presence to acknowledging that, when you can acknowledge that, when you can acknowledge the other person's experience and just be able to hold space for what they're experiencing as well. So it's not just about you. It's about looking at what could they possibly be perceiving that I may be missing through my own filters, of my own interpretation. There was a Hungarian biologist, Mihaly, Czech Mihaly, he wrote the book Flow and he said, basically, we are absorbing about 8 million bits of information per second. And our unconscious minds, our brains, distort, delete and generalize these 8 million bits of information down to 137 that we can actually process. So we distort these, we delete these, we generalize these based on our attitude, based off of time, space, matter, our belief systems, our meta programs, all of these other filters. So of course we're miscommunication is probably going to happen because we're going through all these filters. And now it's not just 8 million bits of information. But now with social media, that book was written way before social media, so now we have probably about 11 million bits of information. And still our brains, our actual hardwiring, is only able to process 137 bits per second. So are you going to be able to pick up on everything that the other person is giving you in a conversation? No. But if you can remove yourself, and I like to think of almost like watching yourself watch yourself, where you can remove yourself into that more omnipotent space and see how am I behaving, what would he probably be perceiving in this conversation? What would he be seeing? What would he be experiencing through his filters and his belief systems or her belief systems? When we can do that, then suddenly it no longer becomes about us or versus them. It becomes a dynamic relationship of how do we calibrate and connect and put ourselves in the other person's shoes.

Brilliant. First of all, Kim, kudos. Many people have come on this podcast and referenced the book Flow. But after a thousand episodes and all those people who referenced the book, you are the only person who has attempted to pronounce his name. So kudos.

You will. You know me, I asked for the correct pronunciation of names. I do believe where credit is due. To give that credit, it was a name. I had to practice that one for sure.

No doubt. That's great. And I think it's really relevant here, too. I love the fact that we're talking about essentially metacognition, thinking about thinking, and the ability to remove ourselves from these situations and see ourselves a little bit more objectively is it can become a superpower. And one of the beautiful things about this, Kim, is that if you get really good at this, a lot of the times where we think we need a really high level negotiation strategy or a specific tactic, it's not necessary. We just need a difference in perception, a difference in perspective. And it's really tough to be able to do what you've done and you've described in this situation where you can say, all right, this is my perspective. This is their perspective. These two things are very different, and that's okay. They both have validity and they both deserve respect in this situation. I want you to paint this picture here. So let's say we're a person who is engaging in a negotiation or a difficult conversation at work, and we do not have this ability. We operate as if everything that we are perceiving is true and accurate without question. What are the dangers of navigating a conversation with that mentality?

Well, our egos really are scared of being wrong. And when you're operating in any sort of Negotiation. With that mentality, you're holding onto the belief system that you have to be right. And this is a belief system that has been conditioned in all of us in school for years. We're praised for having the right answer. So being wrong is not something that we are trained to have to be. It can be scary, almost as scary as death sometimes for some people to be wrong about something that they have believed. It takes a very big person to be able to admit that when they were wrong and to admit that they may not have all the answers. So the first thing is really looking at the subconscious fear and the programming of holding. What does it mean to be right? What does that mean about you if you're not right?

More importantly, hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. I think when it comes to the ego, it's something that we talk about a lot. But it's a really amorphous concept because it manifests itself in so many different ways in so many different contexts, in so many different situations. But one of the through lines is the fact that it comes down to in many cases, a fear of being wrong, strong desire to be right, and then almost an over identification with our position to the point where we cannot differentiate between ourselves and who we are and what we believe in the moment. So as a result, it feels like we're sacrificing ourselves. Or like you said, it feels like dying when we let a point go. No, that is a point. That is a belief. It was based on a perspective and you can change your perspective and that's okay. But in the moment, we feel like this is a part of ourselves that is dying. I cannot let this point go because I'm letting a piece of myself go. At the same time.

You just described exactly why it's so hard for people to change. Because change requires you to be wrong about who you have been and what you have done. So let's say, for example, in a business standpoint, You've been doing a certain marketing strategy, holding onto that strategy. Let's say, for example, just posting on social media all the time, and you think, I have to post on social media to be successful. I have to do this. And you've been doing it, but your sales are not really coming in. And if you double down on that belief, because you've heard it echoed in the echo chamber of Instagram, that you have to be on, on social media and you have to say, you double down on the belief, and more people are saying this, and, okay, this must be true. And you keep double down on a strategy that doesn't necessarily serve. And I always tell my clients, it's not you, it's your programming. You are a, in my opinion, divine being in a lovely 3D physical form. And the programming, the software just needs to be upgraded. But if you double down on that belief system that, oh my gosh, I have to do social media to be successful, then you constantly are reinforcing this need to be right. And then you go to work with a coach and the coach is like, well, do you enjoy it? Like, I've asked that of many of my clients. Like, do you enjoy it? Oh, my God, Katie. Okay, all right. What energy do you think that's bringing to the table of social media? Like, I know some people who thrive on social media because they love it, but I know others, many six, seven, eight figure business owners that I work with, and some of them very low social media numbers, they don't post that much. And it's because they also don't have the beliefs. The results follow the belief, or if the results are going in crashing against your own subconscious strategy where you think things have to be hard. Like, that's a belief I've worked with so many entrepreneurs on, of like, oh, it has to be really hard. Success has to be hard. So they constantly make things hard for themselves. Stressing themselves out, overworking their hours, burning themselves out because of the belief system that it has to be hard. So what happens when they start to work with a coach who brings up the concept of like, well, what if it was enjoyable? What if it was pleasurable? What if you took a nap instead of working for that extra through your lunch? And it shakes up the belief system and it's hard because then they have to be wrong about this whole identity that they've created about things being hard.

This is beautiful because it applies really well with difficult conversations, too. We go into these conversations expecting it to be hard, expecting it to be a battle. It often turns into a self fulfilling prophecy where it unnecessarily becomes a combative experience. This is great too, because when we think about the negotiation we have to have with ourselves to begin to let go of some of these beliefs, the example that you gave as a coach can help us as we become self coaches in our own internal negotiations. So it's not just saying, hey, self, you're wrong, it's toxic, go get help. Right.

That's not, that's beat ourselves down. Exactly.

It's recognizing, oh, hey, just let's ask the question, what if it could be a different way? What if this doesn't have to be a battle in this conversation? What if, dare I say I'm wrong? Or what if there's another perspective that has validity? And I think if we start to wrestle with that a little bit more before the conversation begins, it'll help us to be a lot more nimble and agile during the actual conversation too.

Yeah. And also looking at what is the intention of that belief? Like every belief that we have is serving us in some way. Even if it's negative, even if it's in creating an environment that we don't like, it's serving us in some way. It's a self fulfilling prophecy, like you said. So it's either serving us to keep us safe and safety is not necessarily safety. Safety is familiarity. It's. Or it's keeping us in control or it's keeping us in a place of societal acceptance where we get validation for that belief. I mean, think about a negotiation, like a divorce negotiation, and you say, oh my gosh, you're going into your negotiation with your mediator and suddenly you're expecting it to be like you're going to fight it out with the ex. And so then you go back to your girlfriends and you're like, oh my gosh, it was so awful. Like, let me just tell you about it. So then they are like, oh yeah, of course, he's so da da da da, he's this, he's that. And so they're reinforcing the belief system in you. You're, they're giving you commisery. They're commiserating and reinforcing the validity of what you believe is going to be the case. It also gives you that internal validation that we all crave. And it serves that need of feeling validated, seen and heard and respected.

This is getting deep, Kim, because this brings up a lot of things because we're recognizing that a lot of times we intentionally surround ourselves with an echo Chamber that's designed to validate us rather than challenge us. And to your point, the commiseration, what they found is that a lot of times when people go to talk to other people in order to get emotional support, what they end up getting is co rumination. So when you're by yourself and your mind just cycles over bad things, negative things, negative things. That's rumination. But then a lot of times we just invite people into that process and then it just re solidifies these beliefs that are problematic and not serving us.

This.

This is really, really deep.

Yeah, it's the internal negotiation that we need to do before entering into any form of negotiation is more important than what we do in the actual negotiation, because we have to negotiate with our own mindset, the belief systems that we're set in to be able to see, okay, is this a belief that's actually serving me? Because every belief that we have, A, it's serving us, but B, it's also plagiarized because we've borrowed it from our society or from our caregivers, or from our spouses or from the world or from the echo chamber of the Internet. So if we recognize that every belief that we have is plagiarized, we then can take ownership of like, well, which ones do I actually want to own and like, really create to be my own? And which ones do I want to, like, give away and recognize that those are plagiarized, that I no longer need to those. Because plagiary is a crime.

This is so great. Yeah, because it's funny, as you said that just thinking about it for myself, it became really easy for me in that moment to just be like, yeah, I can let go of it. I didn't make it up. Because we have that feeling of ownership of, yeah, this is my belief. And so maybe if we change it to this is a belief that I currently have, and then we try to reverse engineer the origin of this belief, how did I come to this conclusion? Why do I believe that? And a lot of times we don't go through that introspective process to challenge our own beliefs. Why do I believe what I believe? And the thing is, at some point, it might have served us. It might have been really good, like something from childhood, given our background, it might have been protective in that way. But maybe right now we've gotten to a point in our lives where those same threats don't exist, but we still respond as if they do, which can hold us back in subtle but significant types of ways.

Yeah, the ability to have that conversation with yourself and ask those questions, it takes a lot of courage. Like there is a reason why one of the tenants of high performance is courage. Because to face yourself, to face who you have been and to allow yourself to be wrong, which doesn't feel good. It does and can feel, like I said, like a death. And yet it's in the ability to decide, to see something a new way. In my TED Talk, I spoke about the power of decision. And the word decide, it means to kill or cut off, like side, we know that from homicide. So to decide, it literally means to kill or cut off any other possibilities. So when you make a decision about the person that you're in a negotiation with, it's A, the decision is a belief, but B, that decision, it cuts off other possibilities of what could be true about that experience with that person.

Wow, this is deep. This is incredible. I talk to you forever about this. This is really great. But before you go, I want to respect the listeners time. I always try to keep it around 30 minutes. Before you go, I want to give you an opportunity to let listeners know again about the work you do and how best to get in touch with you.

So if you are a disruptor, if you're a visionary leader, CEO, entrepreneur, looking to level up and grow your business, grow your life, and really create a life, body and business on your terms, go to crownyourself.com and just click the button that says work with me. And if you're looking to leverage the power of podcast guesting and the power of having powerful conversations that increase your purpose and impact and also increase your profit, then head on over to communicationqueens.com love it.

Kim, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Kwame, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

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