Clearing the Path to Workplace Equity with Competence and Confidence With Tara Jaye (Centeio) Frank.

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate, passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Tara, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Yeah, it's our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Excellent. I am Tara J. Frank. I am an equity strategist. So I work primarily with CEOs and their C suite teams on culture and leadership work. And I am the author of the new book, the Waymakers Clearing the Path to Workplace Equity with Competence and Confidence.

Fantastic. And so tell us a little bit more about the book. What's it about?

Yeah, good question. Right. It's about a lot of things, quite honestly. But the reason I wrote the book is I spend most of my time in spaces with high level executives, and I noticed they all had three things in common. The first is that they wanted to do the right thing when it comes to equity and inclusion work. The second was that they don't really know what the right thing is. And the third is that they feel a little insecure about exactly how to step into the work. So the subtitle of Clearing the Path with Competence and Confidence is certainly very pointed and very intentional. I wrote the book to serve as a guide, quite frankly, for leaders who have a heart to make a way for historically excluded or underestimated, underrepresented talent who have that heart but not necessarily feel equipped or confident in doing so.

That's great. And I think the timing is perfect for a book like this. So I'm excited about this part of your journey.

Thank you. Me too.

Yeah. So in our prep, you mentioned that there were three main Things that leaders need to focus on if they want to create this type of change in their company. And the first one was embracing realism. The next one is taking responsibility, and the third one is building relationships. And so within this framework that you've created, when you talk about embracing realism, what does that really mean?

What I mean by embracing realism is leaders, as representatives of their company and also as the purveyors of culture. Right. Need to really get honest with themselves about the nature of their team cultures. I don't think we're telling ourselves the truth always about who we are. We spend a lot of time thinking about who we want to be. So I talk about culture, for instance, as existing on three levels. The claim, the policy, and the norm. So there's who we say we are, then there are the rules we put in place to reinforce those claims. And ultimately, there are the norms. Right. How we show up every day, how we choose, and how we behave. So getting a really honest sense of who we are really through the eyes of our employees, to me, is a critical first step on the path to healing. Right. And you can't really fix or address anything unless you fully understand what it is you're contending with.

Yeah. And you know what's funny is that with this, it seems like such an obvious point, but it's point number one, because even though it's obvious, people really struggle with this. So what is the biggest struggle that people have with this very simple but critical part of the process?

Great question. I have two things I'll say about that. One, some people think they know what their employees are experiencing, but they don't. My work has made that exceedingly clear. So some think they know. So they. They skip over that part because they believe they have a really good understanding of what employees are actually experiencing. The second thing, though, is sometime sometimes it can be a little intimidating to ask a question that you don't really want to know the answer to. And it's easier for us as human beings, I believe, to just jump to the solution. Well, what does great look like? Well, what do people want? Well, what should we go do? And I always just say we really need to pause. It depends, you know, what you go do next depends on where you are today and what your current reality is. So I think it's those two things. One, they think they know, or two, they don't really want to know.

You're spot on, and it's so true. And you can see that smile creeping onto my face because I've seen it myself. And it's so true. It's such an interesting quirk in human psychology. Like you want to get better, but sometimes we're afraid of opening up the closet and seeing what's inside. Because it's not just that it will demonstrate that there's a lot of work to do. And not just that it can sometimes be sad, but sometimes it's really hard to look in the mirror and recognize the potential impact that our behaviors have had on contributing to the problems that we're facing.

Amen. It makes me think of, you know, one time I hired a personal trainer and he was like, okay, well we need to get all these measurements and we need to weigh you and we need to understand your body mass index. And I was like, do we really though? Do we really? All I know is I'm not where I want to be. Is that necessary? Well, if you want to have a sense of whether or not you've made progress, yes, it's necessary. Painful, but necessary.

Exactly. Exactly. And now let's actually dig into this because there may have been times, and I don't want to speak for your career, but I know it's been true with me when I've been working with some people, people are resistant to this part of the process. And so for you, when you work with your clients and you run into that type of resistance, how do you approach the conversation to get them to feel more comfor comfortable with making this change and doing this particular part of the process?

I try to ask really good questions. It's interesting that you ask me that because I tell this story in the book. I was working with a CEO and his executive team. There were about 20 people on this executive team for a multinational billion plus dollar financial organization. And we were there to talk about how black executives were experiencing their company. And so I was doing the first step, right, which was trying to help us all understand the current state. And he, like many CEOs of huge organizations, has a bias for action. And so he kind of interrupted me just a couple minutes in and he said, can we. I really want to get. I really want to solve this problem. I really want to get to solution. And I said, I hear you. I said, well, let me just ask a quick question then, and if the answer is affirmative, we can absolutely move on. I said, how many of you around this table believe you fully understand what your black executives are experiencing today and how those experiences are impacting their careers? And one person raised his hand, the lone black man at the table. And everyone else was quiet. At which Point the CEO said, please continue.

There you go. So, yeah, that's great. And I love the simplicity of this. And the listeners will know that I'm excited about this because we are. The methodology that we use for persuasion as just the foundation for conflict resolution and difficult conversations in general is called the Compassionate Curiosity Framework. Everything that we do is based on curiosity and the power of asking great questions. And what you'll find is that a lot of times the success and failure you experience in these conversations isn't contingent upon the amazing, awesome, cool things that you say. It's contingent upon the amazing, awesome, cool questions that you ask people. And with this example, I'm sure there was that awkward silence, right? And nobody loves, nobody enjoys feeling that type of tension and the temptation that people would have in that moment when they ask a very pointed question that shines the light on the other person in an uncomfortable type of way. You want to jump in and rescue them from that tension. But that tension is doing work. And the fact that they didn't have an answer was, in fact, the answer.

Absolutely. Yeah. I love this. And honestly, we could talk about the power of questions or great questions all day long, because I use them a lot, as I know you can appreciate.

Absolutely. Oh, this is great. This is great. And this is a perfect time for us to segue to the second point, which is taking responsibility. I love this point. So when you're thinking about equity and change within an organization, what does taking responsibility look like to you?

Well, here's the reality. Anytime an organization is going through or a culture or a society, anything going through a major change, you're always going to have people in three camps, right? Think about the Pareto principle 80, 20 rule. You're gonna have people who are ready to change, like, let's go. I'm ready. I love it. You're gonna have people on the other end who are crossing their arms, digging their heels in, right? Saying, I like it this way. I don't want to change. But in every case, the majority of the people are going to be in the middle, sitting on the fence, potentially observing, maybe watching what's happening, feeling badly about what's happening, but not necessarily seeing themselves as playing an active role in facilitating it. And I call the Waymaker's book an invitation very intentionally. Because what I'm doing is I'm inviting the people, that majority who are on the fence, I'm inviting them off the fence into the equity arena. And what I say to them is, if this is your business, this is also your work. It's not your HR leader's work. It's not the work of your one or two or three person diversity, equity and inclusion team. If you are a leader in this company, this is your work and unless you take responsibility for it, it will not work. We are stuck because of the fence sitters. That's why we're stuck.

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Absolutely. Okay, so let's break this into two parts. I want to explore the top use of the term invitation and then also what it is that we need people to do. So let's first start off with invitation. That sounds very nice. And I noticed that you're not saying we are going to push people against their will, so why didn't you use a more aggressive term?

Yeah, I'm so glad you asked me that. No one has asked me that yet. Here's the thing. There are so many conversations going on right now about diversity and equity and inclusion work and what works and what doesn't work and how we should engage people who don't necessarily have to participate. How we should engage them to participate. Here's what I shame and blame have never inspired anyone to do something they do not have to do. That is the reality. And what I have learned is that most people, again, the majority, that's not everyone. Most people want to contribute to a healthier cultural environment. Most people want to be a good guy or woman or non binary person in that particular journey. They do not wake up in the morning and say to themselves, how can I work against equality? How can I make life difficult for the people with whom I work? How can I make them feel bad about myself and about themselves and cause trauma that they may never recover from? Most people don't wake up in the morning and decide that's who they're going to be. So I call it an invitation. Because if those people in the middle are sitting back and observing and just again, feel incompetent. Right. Or insecure about playing their part. I want them to know I'm going to both equip you and build your confidence by helping you understand what you're really dealing with here and how you can play a meaningful role in making it better. So it is an invitation for me because I think that's what it's going to take.

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm on the same page. I have a book coming out later in 2022, how to have Difficult Conversations About Race. And one of the sections is the problem is called the Problem with Shame Based Strategies. And you're absolutely right. I think a lot of people like to mobilize shame and blame because. Not because it's effective, but because it's more cathartic. It makes them feel better. They're angry and they want to voice that frustration, but they're doing it in a way that is not narrowly tailored to suit their strategic purposes.

What I love about that and what I say to people all the time is it may feel good to approach this problem with that kind of tenor, but it's not productive. And so I always ask, what do we want to get out of this? Let's just be clear about what we want to be true on the other end of this interaction. Because if it doesn't matter to us, you know, that this person changes or does something different, then let's keep doing what we're doing. But if it matters to us that the person on the other end makes a different choice or behaves in a new way, then we have to be so very thoughtful about how we include them in this conversation.

Yeah, 100%. And now let me ask you this, because a unique origin of resistance for the work that you're doing can come from people who are allies, people who see the world the way that you do, people who want to create change. And so let's say, hypothetically, there's somebody who says, tara, this is just too soft. This approach is too soft. We don't need to invite people. We need to force them to do something. And so now you're talking to that person who is criticizing you for not being more aggressive. How do you have the conversation with them to make them feel a little bit more comfortable with your approach?

Yeah. What I think is underneath your question too, and I get this a lot, is people assume that because I am kind in my approach, that I am. That I am letting people off the hook, that I'm also easy in my approach. And those, those are not the same things. So I am kind in my approach, but I am also extraordinarily pointed and honest and thorough and clear about what it will require of folks. Right? The fact that they need to be more courageous, the fact that they need to be more intentional, the fact that they need to make some really difficult decisions, sometimes including firing people. So we don't hold anything back on the truth telling. We don't hold anything back on the intentionality or in the boldness of our choices and decisions. But you can do all of that and still be kind and still meet people where they are emotionally. And again, if we remember that the majority of people want to play a role, they just don't know what that role is, right? And they don't want to mess up, they don't want to bring on to themselves any kind of reputational damage, then it's easy for me to be kind with those people. It's easy for me to invite them and walk alongside them because I know they want to do the right thing. They just don't know what it is.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. That is great. Fantastic. And then now with that third point, building relationships. Now when we're thinking about the work that you're doing as it relates to leadership and moving towards a more equitable workplace, what types of relationships are you thinking of predominantly?

So people need to build relationships across difference, specifically. Here's the thing, and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. The name of the book is the Waymakers for a reason. It's not about systems, although systems are important. It's not about processes wholly, although processes are important. It's about people. Because at the end of the day, every black or brown person or marginalized person I know who has made it to the top of their organization has done so because someone made a way for them. Not because the HR department flipped a policy or instituted a new decision making process, but because a human being decided that they would open a door, remove a barrier and usher someone through it. And so without meaningful relationships across difference, we, you and I, people like you and I, do not get to benefit from the art of waymaking. We will stay on the outside looking in. There was a body of research done by Coquill a few years ago, formerly center for Talent of Innovation, where she basically said that white people in America have 90 times as many white friends as they do black friends. Since most of us don't have 90 friends, you know exactly what that means. And as long as we do not enjoy meaningful, authentic, connected relationship with each other, we won't benefit from that way making act right. We will not be the person someone opens the door for and removes the barrier for and ushers them through. So what I say to majority leaders in this book is you need to make it a point to build relationship with people who are not like you. If indeed you aspire to be the kind of leader who makes a way, it's crucial that we do that. Here's a frame I'll share with you that has been really profound for people. Whenever we're looking to promote someone or give them an opportunity for growth, there are two dimensions that are really important. One is affinity. So what we believe we have in common with them. The second is evidence, or what we know about their contribution or their skill set. At the intersection of high affinity and high evidence, those people have the greatest advantage in any workplace situation. Right? They're going to be the people we think of first. When we have a new opportunity at the intersection of no affinity and no evidence, those people will flail in the wind every single time. If you have affinity and no evidence, you actually have more advantage than if I know all about your work. But we do not share any affinity. That is how powerful affinity is. Relationship is, connectedness is. It actually can supersede what I know about your skills and your contributions. And we see this play out in work all the time. Oh, I went to Harvard Business School. This person went to Harvard Business School. I'm making an assumption that they're the smartest person in the universe because I know I am. And they went to the same school I went to, so they must be as well. That's what affinity does inside our workplace. Right. As we're developing our succession plans and hiring.

Yeah, this is a really great point. And listeners, I want to make sure that you did not miss this very important point. Right? So we have affinity and evidence, and so you want to have both. If you have both, you're in a good position. If you don't have either, not surprisingly, you're in a bad position. Right, but if. And again, when we're talking about affinity, it's similarity, right? And liking, would that be a fair synopsis?

It's similarity, but it's. Here's the, here's the beauty of it. The reason I say relationships across difference is so important because if someone is white and I'm black, we're never going to share a racial affinity. But if I get to know them as a human being, beyond the ways we're visibly different, we may learn that we grew up in a very similar kind of town, which creates an affinity for us. Right. We may learn that we both are in a blended family situation and both have six children, which creates a moment or a point of affinity for us. So you can create affinity, right? That is along invisible dimensions. If you develop the relationship without that, you can't cultivate it.

Yep, there we go. And this, this is such a critical point, because if you have affinity but no evidence to demonstrate your competence or ability, you're still in a good spot. And I think that's what people don't realize too, because when you think about the psychology of it and you have an affinity bias, it's, I can see you in me. And so if you succeed, it's almost like seeing a bit of me succeed. And so that's why it's so important not just to have relationships, but as we have these conversations, difficult or otherwise, we are intentional about finding similarities. And when it comes to the diversity, equity and inclusion space, I think one of the biggest strategic errors that people make is that we focus so much on what makes us different. And there's so much that can pull us together when we take the time to establish the relationship, as you say. And so it makes so much sense. And now again, it makes sense. And why is it so tough for people to then do it?

Oh, man, the million dollar question. Well, it kind of exists in the framework that we just talked about. One is they don't know the truth of other people's experiences. You said we focus so much on how we're different. I put that in the realism can. It matters that we understand how we're different because we're all starting from a different place on the marathon, right? And so it matters that we get a realistic sense of that. So, one, people don't do it because they don't fully understand that real picture, you know? Two, they don't feel responsible. It's easier to sit on the fence and watch other people do it. Like I say to leaders all the time, hey, I'm gonna need you to move from your monitoring position to your momentum position. You don't get to sit on the fence and grade how other people are doing that. Oh, that's good. You get a B. You know, you get an F. Like, that's not your. That's not your job here. So they don't feel responsible. They don't feel that it is their place, if that makes sense, to do anything different. And then lastly, they don't have meaningful connections across difference, which means they're not being emotionally compelled to do anything other than what is natural for them to do.

Yeah. Oh, this is great. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And they're probably listeners out there saying, wow, I want to learn more about Tara. I wonder if she wrote a book. If they weren't paying attention, can you please remind them about the book and how they can get in touch with you?

Oh, thank you so much. Yes. So please go to wearethewaymakers.com where you'll find links to buy the book. Of course, it's also being sold anywhere that books are sold, but it's called the Clearing the Path to Workplace Equity with competence and confidence. And what I promise everyone who reads it is exactly that. You will be more competent, you know, in this space and as a leader in general after you read it. And I believe you will also be more confident, because what I remind people of is as complicated as we make this work, and I'm not suggesting it's simple. It's also very human work, and we are all human. So we are. We can do this. We can do this. We don't think we can, but we can.

I love it. Tara, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And listeners, make sure to check the links in the description for all of the access to Tara's website and the book as well. Thank you again, Tara. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

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