Communicating About Culturally Sensitive Issues -Linkedin Live event

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything Live. In this special segment, we're sharing one of our LinkedIn Live events where listeners like you can join the conversation and shape the episode with your comments and questions. We've put a link to the event in the description of today's episode, but make sure to follow me on LinkedIn so you can join the conversation next time. I'm really glad you're with us today. We with over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we dive into today's episode, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Hello everybody, and welcome to an episode of Negotiate Anything Live. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. To the folks who are joining us, listening asynchronously on Negotiate Anything, hello to my podcast listeners. Hey, if you're on YouTube. YouTube. Thanks for watching. Now that I'm a YouTuber, I should say like and subscribe to this YouTube channel. So make sure you smash that like button. That's what the cool kids say. All right, and now to the basic start off. Let me know that this is working. Okay, so send a little comment in the chat. Just let me know that you're here and let me know where you are coming in from. Which part of the world are you joining us from? So once we start to see some activity in the chats, then we will go ahead and get started. And also check this out. You see, we're upgrading the studio. You see these blue lights? I'm one of the cool kids now, which is super exciting. So let Me know what you think about the blue lights? Only if it's positive, because I worked hard to put these together. Okay. What's up, Tia? Thank you. Thank you. Hey, Lisa, Jamie, Carlene, Aretha, Louisiana, Texas, Louisiana, Los Angeles. Awesome. Daniela, good to see you again, my friend. Shout out to Daniela. She was on the podcast, so it's great to see you. Awesome. Hot Landa. Do people still say that? Do people still say that? Atlanta, atl, Mexico. Bienvenidos. Long Beach, California, Arizona. Columbus. Laura. Hey. Good to see you. Yeah, I'm in Columbus, too. For people who don't know. Great, great, great, great. Well, welcome, everybody. Welcome. So today we are doing this LinkedIn live. It's. It's based on my most recent course with LinkedIn, learning communicating about culturally sensitive issues. Naming things is always challenging, so if I can just copy and paste the name from a course to a LinkedIn Live and call it that, that'll make my life a lot easier. And so if you haven't checked that out, make sure you check it out. We'll put a link in the description so if you haven't looked, you can get the full vibe on it. But I'm just going to call out three things. Oh, hey, we got two people from North Carolina. That's great. I'm going to be in North Carolina next week, so. Yeah, so we're going to. I'm going to pull out three things that I want to talk about, but as always, I want to hear from you. So when you have thoughts, just drop it in the chat. Simone will highlight some of those things, some of those ideas that come through. If you have questions, we will get to those questions toward the end. So make sure you ask the questions that come to mind. And if you see a question that you like, give it a lot of likes to signal to Simone, hey, we want to make sure that Kwame answers this question. Okay? Simple rule about questions. The harder the better. I don't want easy questions. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But, yeah, don't be afraid of asking me hard questions. That's when it gets really fun. And if you don't agree with something that I say, feel free to call that out because that leads to really good conversations, too. Okay, so first we're going to talk about what the challenge is, why are we even talking about this, and what makes these challenge these conversations so tough. Then we're going to talk about empathy and what people often miss about empathy. And then lastly, talking about biases, but in a completely different way. This is going to be an empowering perspective on biases. Because I think. I mean, if you're. Can we just be honest? I think a lot of people are tired of talking about bias. It's usually in a very negative type of way where it's like, oh, my gosh, we're talking about this again. Okay, I get it. Everything is awful. That's not the way that we're going to approach it. Right. This is going to be a really empowering, strategic view on how we can utilize biases in an effective and ethical type of way in order to create deeper connections with the people that we work with. Okay. So when you think about these conversations, about culturally sensitive issues that come up, whatever it happens to be, what is it that makes these conversations so tough? So think about the last tough conversation you had on a topic that might have gotten that label of culturally sensitive, which is a nebulous term. Right. A lot of things could fit into that. What is it that makes those conversations so tough? And this is something that I think everybody can relate to. When I wrote my second book, how to have Difficult Conversations About Race, this is where I started off, because so many people can relate to this. And it's a challenge that we all experience. And if we can't really address and articulate what that challenge is, it's going to make it really tough for us to overcome that challenge. All right, I see some things coming through. Lisa says people take things very personally. Yes. And there's. There is no study on this, but I think we can collectively do a societal vibe check on this. I feel like people are taking more things more personally now. I feel like we're getting a little bit more sensitive when it comes to these topics. And so, yes, the. It is legit that people take things more personally. That makes these conversations more difficult. Regardless of what your intent is, somebody could take something personally and it could have negative consequences for the relationship. And then for whatever it is that you're trying to do and also your reputation, if something's taken the wrong way, too. People speak in absolutes. Michelle, never. People never speak in absolute. Yes, people speak in absolutes. The extreme talk is very. It's off putting and it's not persuasive because all you need to do is find one instance of that not being the case and the entire argument falls down. We speak in absolutes a lot of times to match our level of emotionality that we bring to the conversation, but we don't consider the impact it has on the other person because now what their, their brain does is they. They search for one little grain of truth that can dismantle everything that you say. So even though it might feel good to speak in absolutes, we understand that persuasively, you're moving in the wrong direction and it's off putting and it's not necessary. It is not as necessary. So we want to try to be as precise as possible in general with the words that we speak, but especially when we're talking about sensitive issues. This is going to be really important. Good. Jamie says even when you know someone semi well, you never really know what may be more a more sensitive topic for them. Jamie, this is an expert level observation here. Yeah, we never know. We never know what has gone on in somebody's backstory. We never know what is a trigger for them. I'll give an example in one of the. The podcasts that I did last week for the Negotiate Anything podcast. Check it out. Available on all podcast platforms. One of my guests said, for him, the word buddy is, is triggering to him because he's like, that's what you call children. So if somebody calls me buddy, it feels like a power play. Regardless of whether or not it is a power play, it feels like one. And so that's just an example. You wouldn't, you would never think that that term could be triggering, but once you get to know somebody, it, it might be. So of course, that's not like a culturally sensitive type of term, but it's an example of how you might inadvertently step on a landmine during a conversation, even when you're trying your best to be respectful. Right, and let's wrap up with this one, too. It's challenging to find the balance between acknowledging current events and sharing sympathy and empathy without overstepping. Yeah, that's big. That is very, very big. Okay, so how many people can relate to this, the feeling of fear in culturally sensitive conversations, whether it's talking about race, gender, some other societal issue, disability status, whatever, it happens to be the fear. What are we afraid of? So a lot of people say they're afraid of being canceled. That's one thing that comes up. They're afraid of damaging a relationship. And then going back to what other people have said, they. They're afraid of offending somebody inadvertently. Because if we're recognizing that society is becoming a little bit more sensitive, then that creates a fear in conversations because we say, all right, if this person is sensitive on this particular area, first of all, there's no way for me to know for sure. And second of all, even if I'm trying my best, I still fail and it feels like it's out of my hands. Right. This is really, really important. So we, we have to recognize that these fears are not just going to be felt by you, but everybody in the interaction. And so we have to then figure out what the purpose is of having these conversations. Because I'm not going to sit up here and lie to you and say that these risks and these fears are not legitimate. They are very legitimate. But if we're going to have these conversations, there needs to be something on the back end that pulls us through. Right? So if I'm recognizing that there's risk, there needs to be a return on investment for the engagement in this conversation that makes this interaction worthwhile. So when you think about that for you in your conversations, what makes it worthwhile? Why should we still have these conversations? Or is this a situation where for some of these topics, maybe we shouldn't even be talking about them, even in the, especially in the workplace. I want to focus on the workplace as much as possible. We're on LinkedIn for this live. It's all about professionalism. Right? So why should we still have these conversations or should we not have these conversations? What do you think? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. What's unfamiliar to us is oftentimes, oftentimes imbues fear. Yes. We don't feel confident. We don't want to admit we don't know. And that discomfort can be silencing. Yes. And responding with silence is a rational response. Right. Because we say there is danger. And I am not even sure what the danger could be, which makes it feel even more dangerous. Right. And sometimes it can be really scary to be vulnerable enough to admit that we don't know something, to admit that we don't understand something. And all of that leads us to hesitate when it comes to engaging in these tough conversations. So well said. Very well said. Afraid my Feelings might be dismissed and disrespected, or making a person feel like I'm dismissing their pain by sharing mine. Oh, that's big. That is big. Right? Because again, what. There have been times where we've leaned into having these conversations. We might have said to ourselves, yeah, I'm going to do this. I'm going to step up. It's scary, but I'm going to do it. And then somebody dismisses the way that we feel. Somebody dismisses our. Our perspective. And that hurts. That hurts because it leads to feelings of learned helplessness. All right, so I see a problem. I'm experiencing something. I need to step up and say something. Then I finally gather the courage to step up and say something, and somebody dismisses the way that I feel. Yeah, it can hurt. And so we might carry that pain and that baggage into our next opportunity to have a difficult conversation. And then that learned helplessness might make us say, you know what? It's not even worth the time. I shouldn't even do this. It's not worth the risk. Right. So that's big. Good call. Good call. Yeah. What else? Oh, I see Shakir also. Check out Shakir's episode on the podcast on storytelling. Awesome episode. Master class. So this is great. Shakir says, give people some grace until they abuse, that a good relationship is on the other side of those conversations. Hey, man, I like the way you said that. Because, of course, the motto at a I is we believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. Right. And I think this element of grace is something that's often overlooked because we might feel compelled or obligated to maybe attack or, you know, assume worse intentions because that might make us feel safer. But really, if you can feel safe enough or comfortable enough in the relationship and have. And this is the major, major point here, have enough confidence in your skills during the conversation. You can recognize that, hey, I can lean in. I can be vulnerable. And during this conversation, it's very likely that somebody's going to make a mistake. It's very likely that somebody's going to say something offensive, and it's very likely that they do those things without malicious intent. And so if you extend that element of grace, it can give you the resilience you need to stay in the conversation proactively and navigate the conversation to a better place. Because we have to recognize that just like in any difficult conversation or negotiation, it's not always like, you know, easy street. It is not. There are going to be rocky roads as we move into in a productive direction during these conversations. But we have to be able to have confidence in our skills in order to move forward. That's really what it comes down to. Good. Awesome. So, yes, we've articulated the challenge. Right. This is good. So now that we understand what the challenge is and how it's largely going to be emotional, we recognize that by focusing on the. The benefits on the other side of the conversation, it can help us to lean into the conversation more wholeheartedly. Because, like you, like Shakir said, at the end of the conversation, we might have a better relationship. At the end of the conversation, we might have a better understanding of the person and the situation. And if we work together collaboratively, if there's a problem to be addressed, we can now come together, galvanize our resources to address the problem at hand. So this is good. Cool. Next thing we're going to talk about is empathy. Now, empathy is something that we hear about a lot. It's a really cool buzzword. Everybody needs to empathize all the time. And there's always a thought leader telling you that you need to empathize and I need to empathize with you because that's exactly what I'm going to do right now. But I'm going to do it a little bit differently. Okay. So when we think about the term empathy, I don't want you to think about it just as one blanket term. I want you to recognize that there are two different types of empathy. So we have psychological empathy and we have intentional empathy. So let's start off with psychological empathy. So psychological empathy isn't something that you choose to do. Psychological empathy is something that you do naturally. It's easy for us to empathize with somebody based on who they are, depending on the certain circumstances. Right. So let's give an example. Let's give a sports example. You don't need to understand sports in order to understand this reference. So let's say there's a sport and somebody from your team gets hurt. They fall down, they seem to hurt their knee. What do you often find yourself doing? You might start to grab your own knee, you might wince, like. Like in pain, as if you experience that. Right. The reason why we do that is because of something called mirror neurons. So these are neuro. These are nerve receptors in our brain that reflect back the emotions that they see. And so when I see somebody as part of my team, an extension of me, it is easy for me to connect with that person emotionally. It's easy for me to lean in and Try to seek to understand that person. Because I see them as part of me, part of my tribe, and therefore an extension of me. That's not a choice. Your brain just does that by itself. Now, on the other side, we have intentional empathy. And so when I'm thinking about the term empathy, I'm thinking about understanding how the person sees the situation, how they feel about the situation, and what they think about the situation. So first, what are their thoughts? When they think about it rationally, how do they approach it? What are their feelings? What are their emotions? How do they feel about it? Recognizing that thoughts and feelings are two different things. So we're going to need a little bit more explanation from the other side in order to tease out the difference between the thoughts and the feelings. And then when I say see, I'm talking about their perspective. What is their perspective? How are they viewing things? Right. Regardless of whether or not we agree, empathy is just understanding. It does not mean agreement. Now, with the intentional empathy, this is a choice, but more so than a choice, it is a skill. It is a skill that we can develop with time. And so what should we take from this? First thing we should take from this is the reality that sometimes if we can look at somebody and see ourselves in them, it's easier for us to empathize with them. But then if we don't see somebody as part of our tribe, as part of an extension of ourselves, it is going to be more difficult to empathize with them. It is going to be more effortful. Right? And so for me, as a. As a business lawyer who is. Who focuses on negotiation and things like that, there are going to be times where on the other side, we are actually diametrically opposed. That does not mean that I do not use empathy in that situation. I still need to understand their perspective. I still need to understand their feelings. I still need to understand their thoughts. But I recognize that since I see them as part of the other team, it's just going to take a little bit more effort. And so if you're talking to somebody who sees the world differently, who looks different, who sounds different, who is different culturally in some kind of way, and you just can't figure out how to connect with a person, recognize that that disconnect is natural and what's required to break through two things, skill and effort. You need to have the skill of empathy, and you need to put the effort forward in order to empathize. So remember this really important point. You don't need to feel empathetic in order to Empathize. You don't need to feel empathetic in order to empathize. You don't need to naturally feel lovey dovey and warm and mushy about this situation or the person. You might just say, man, I'm not feeling empathetic. And to me, to, to you, I would say that's completely natural. Would be natural for you to not feel empathetic in this situation, but it does not absolve you of the responsibility of empathizing, because that's a choice, that's a skill. Okay, last one. Talking about bias, but in a more empowering type of way. If you remember a couple weeks ago, we did the, the presentation on trust. The, the, the live, the LinkedIn live on trust. And the, the take that I have on trust is different. Trust to me is a positive bias, right? You don't need to think through logically whether or not you trust somebody. You just trust them. It's a feeling. And that feeling comes from a good relationship. Whatever it happens to be, the person trusts you a little bit more. And so when we're talking to people who have different perspectives, come from different cultural backgrounds or whatever it is, we have to recognize that again, number one, it's going to require intentional empathy. And number two, what we can do is we have to recognize that there may be some negative biases that exist, but what we should try to do is mobilize positive biases in our favor. Trust is one of those positive biases. So we want to create opportunities to interact in a meaningful way with people who have different backgrounds, because this will start to generate more of that positive bias of trust to overcome the negative bias. And so the negative bias is that that may exist potentially and it doesn't. We have to think about biases in a, in a more innocuous type of way, because biases are just a psychological reality, right? And so there might be a bias that comes from a negative perception about a group, but there might just be the, the lack of familiarity that leads to a negative bias. Because just human to human, if I'm not familiar with you, the safest thing for me to do is not trust you as much, which can turn into a negative bias, right? So what we want to do is we want to actively work against that by creating strategic opportunities for us to make meaningful deposits into the relationship bank account. That's it. It doesn't take much, but we just want to create opportunities for more interactions. The other thing that we can do, another example of bias that we can use in Our favor ethically. Always want to emphasize the word ethically here is called affinity bias. So for people who are in the inclusion and belonging space, or people who are in human resources, your hair should stand up on edge and you should say affinity. Affinity bias is bad. And it can be. So what affinity bias is, is you are like me, so I like you. So there's going to be a natural preference for people who we see as similar. We can still play on that exact same psychology by recognizing, hey, if there's a cultural difference between me and another person, what I want to do is I want to have enough interactions with them, positive interactions, for me to learn about them, learn about their background, learn about what they care about, those type of things, and find unique points of similarity. So even though culturally we might be different or we might see the world differently, we probably still have something in common. We might have similar hobbies, we might care about our families and have similar stresses. Right, those type of things. And so you want to be intentional about creating trust and creating opportunities to point out areas of similarity, because that will create some positive momentum to make the difficult conversations easier. And so these are some simple things that we can put into place when it comes to having these culturally sensitive conversations. And now I want to turn it to your questions. I want to turn it to your questions and get your thoughts. And again, I want you to feel comfortable asking whatever comes to mind and feel comfortable using this as a coaching session. Give a scenario. What would you do in a situation like this? And as you can see with the way that I'm approaching this, I want this to be accessible, approachable, and easy to put into place. I didn't focus much on hard tactics for specific conversations, but more on mindset and approach, because if we can get this. This underlying baseline of understanding and connection and recognizing that we are more similar and more connected than we might have originally recognized, then that puts us in a position to have a really, really firm foundation that we can build on for the conversations that we have with each other. But a lot of times the mistake that we make is that we start at a point of contention. So it's like, I disagree with you on this specific thing. Let's start the conversation there. That's hard to do. But if we take the time to understand each other, learn about each other, and find out points where we can agree going into these conversations and empathize with intentionality, then it makes the rest of the conversations that we have with this other person or on this topic a lot easier. Just because we took the time to set a really, really strong foundation for the relationship. So cool. We got our first question. William Yates. Thank you. If context in the conversation is sharing background stories, as often happens when making new connections, ask open questions, listen deeply, and be willing to learn. Oh, that's big. Especially that last part, because that requires a lot of humility. Humility simply in this context would mean just acknowledging the fact that we. We cannot fully understand somebody. We can't fully understand their backgrounds. We have different backgrounds. But what we can do is we can listen with humility and be willing to learn from each other. It should be a mutual exchange of information. That's how relationships deepen. In general. You share a little bit about yourself. I reciprocate by sharing a little bit about myself. And then we go back and forth, back and forth. And then we feel more comfortable being vulnerable. We feel. Feel more comfortable sharing. And then we can learn from each other and build from there. This is good. Oh, yeah, no worries, William. I see it now. You're good. Good. We have, Nicola says, afraid of my feelings being dismissed and disrespected. Making or making a person feel like I'm dismissing their pain by sharing mine. I want to get to that last point. Dismissing their pain by sharing mine. I think that's really important. In my last book, I had this section called the Pain Off. The Great Pain Off. And so what ends up happening a lot of times in these conversations is somebody shares a little bit about themselves. They share a background or a situation that. That might have hurt them or something like that. And then we reciprocate in order to try to share some empathy. We say, you know what? I went through something similar, and this was my experience. And then the other person says, wait a second. Is this like a. You think your pain is worse than mine? Well, let me add to my story to let you know that your pain was not similar. Mine was worse. Right. And then it becomes a really unproductive conversation where we start to try to measure each other's pain. And the person who has the most pain has the most validity in the conversation. That can be really damaging over time. And so one of the things that I suggest doing is just first of all being mindful of this pattern. If somebody shares a story, I think it's common for other people to share their story too. But in a situation where there might be very high emotions and the person might be very triggered, if you see that specter of emotionality or pain or hurt, unless it is required to advance the Conversation, I would hold off on sharing that pain until you recognize that the emotional temperature of the room has dropped down. Because once that emotional temperature has dropped down, that is a sign that the person is a little bit more. Is going to be more receptive to the story that you are going to share, because otherwise they might perceive it as a threat because they're already in a negative emotional state. And then your attempts at creating a connection through empathizing and showing that you've gone through something similar might be perceived as something that is negative. And they might consider it as you trying to diminish their experience too. So that's a, that's a really good point. I'm a mixed woman and was adopted out of my Caucasian family. My dad is black. I identify as black, yet biologically, percentage is more Caucasian and was adopted into a black family. I think that's good background for, for this, for the example that you gave. And I think that also depending on how other people are perceiving you, it'll change the way that they perceive you sharing your own story as well. I think there has to be a recognition of that. Yeah, this. Yeah, I think that context for this point is very, very important. So I appreciate that. Lisa, how do you continue to foster these conversations where people want to come back and lean in more as opposed to leaving the bad taste in their mouth because discomfort is oftentimes prominent. Yes. And I think one, what we have to recognize is that they're going to be similarities in different types of relationships that we have. So obviously there's a big difference between a professional relationship and a romantic relationship, but there are going to be some similar similarities. So I'm going to reference John Gottman and the work that he does on relationships. He has several books on the topic. It's just really, really good. One of the things that he says is that in a good, positive, healthy relationship, they're going to be tough conversations. No doubt that's going to happen. But one of the things that you have to do in order to make sure that the relationship continues to grow despite difficult conversations is engage in what's called repair attempts. So after a conversation, you find a reason to have a positive interaction with your partner that is not pressure filled. So for instance, let's say Whitney and I have a tough conversation about a decision that we have to make with our kids. Kids. Great. That was a tough one. We came to a conclusion, but it was still really tough. So maybe I come in like a couple hours later and say, hey, Whit, do you Want to watch. You want to watch our Netflix show? You want to just chill on the couch for a bit? Like, that's me attempting to repair. Right? Or maybe I'm walking past and when he gives me a hug, that's her attempting to repair. Now, I'm not asking you to invite your colleagues to, you know, hang out on the couch, watch Netflix, or hug them. That's inappropriate. But what I am saying is that after you have these conversations, there needs to be a meaningful attempt to repair it. So let's say you have the tough conversation today, on Tuesday, and then on Thursday, they give you a work product, something that's natural and part of the general course of business. But what you do is instead you pause and just look the person in the eye and say their name and just say, hey, Lisa, I just want to let you know, I really appreciate the fact that with this report that you give every week, you're always on time and it's always high level. I really appreciate you. Right. Something little like that. But it's, it's a, it's a clear attempt to show that there's still value in the relationship. And there's. There, there's still some positivity there. And so then that's how you can start to get the momentum back. So again, like you said, you want to encourage people to lean in and have these conversations. You're going to have these conversations from time to time, and sometimes they're going to be tough. So how can we make people feel safe? How can we rebuild the relationship? Incorporating a few of these in these repair attempts from time to time is a really, really great way to keep the relationship moving forward and create some more positive positivity. Awesome. Laura, how do you approach an imbalance of vulnerability in a given group? We had a speaker recently who noted that being equitable means allowing people to bring their desired self to the space at work. But when you try to create a group culture that builds mutual trust, do you need everybody, everyone to be willing to lean into that, to be able to effectively tackle difficult conversations? I think, well, first of all, no, we don't need everybody to be willing to do anything because that would be an impossibility. But when we think about that imbalance of vulnerability, I think that's really important. I think there needs to be a little bit of balance, some mutuality when it comes to the element of vulnerability in any group, in any relationship, because it feels bad if you are over sharing. Well, I shouldn't even say oversharing. If you are Sharing to a certain level and the other person or the other people don't seem to match that, you feel a little bit exposed. And so I think a lot of times we try to jump into the deep end with these conversations when we should be starting off a little bit too smaller. All right, let me share a little bit about myself. You share a little bit about yourself. Right. And we start to build that vulnerability incrementally. I think that's really important. And then we have to recognize that, yes, when we allow people to, we want people to be included. And by included, what we mean is we want them to feel able or confident to bring their authentic self to work and not be penalized for it. Right. And I think as with every culture, a culture is dynamic. It's not static, it's always changing. And so if we have a new leader that's going to change the culture, if we have a new team member that's going to change the culture. And I think what we have to do is we have to constantly evaluate how culture is shifting based on how life and the world is shifting. Just in general, we have to have these touch in these, these checkpoints just to make sure that there does, there isn't an adjustment that needs to be made. Let's use the example of COVID for example. A lot of times a lot of people just found themselves in a remote work environment when they were never, when that was never a possibility. Okay, something significant changed. We have to have a conversation about what this means for us. What is this new culture that we're going to create. How did, how do things change? How do they say that stay the same? I think that needs to be an open conversation. And if we are, if you're a leader in the convert, in the company, I think we have to have regular check ins to touch base to see how people are doing, how people are perce leaving the situation and whatever it happens to be. But it just requires constant communication. Heather Schuller, I know you. Heather was on, on the LinkedIn learning team to produce the course. So good to see you my friend. Can you give another example of how you cultivate an empathetic response to someone you do not empathize with? Naturally. Let's add that naturally part first. What I would do is I would recognize that there is going to be that normal human desire to counter what it is that they say. So let's say we don't empathize with them naturally. Maybe it's because they have a different background or they see the world Differently, or simply put, we. We might just disagree with them completely. And so what I want you to do is lead with curiosity. I turn it into a game when I. When I'm really struggling, when I'm really struggling to empathize some. But with somebody, I try to turn it into a game. Game. And so my game is this. I want to be able to demonstrate my understanding to the other person in a way that is so thorough and complete that it surprises them. You know, so I'll just keep on listening, summarizing, and asking questions. And then once they give me everything that they have on the topic, I'll just say, all right, so let me just do a quick summary. So your perspective is XYZ, and you believe this for 1, 2, 3. And you have this concern of ABC. Am I getting that right? And they're like, wow, yeah. Yeah, you are. No, that's really. That's a really good summary. Right. So I turned it into a game. So again, let's go back to the beginning. Empathy means understanding. It doesn't mean agreement. I can summarize and empathize at a really, really high level while vehemently disagreeing with everything the person says. And I think what we have to do is shift from this idea of common ground to this idea of common understanding, Right? So, okay, we don't have common ground because we don't agree. So we can't just say, I'm not gonna have. I'm not going to consider this conversation successful until we reach common ground. That might not be possible, but what we could do is we can say no at the end of the day, if we can reach a point of common understanding where I can understand you and you can understand me, regardless of whether or not we can agree, that gives you enough positive momentum that you can use as a foundation for the conversation that you can build upon going forward. So I think just understanding and having a bit more of a realistic perspective on what's possible and recognizing that common ground isn't always possible, but common understanding is. I think that will help you to feel a lot more empowered in that conversation. But it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of work. And I think we have to, as we're looking within ourselves and we're recognizing, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding this person. I'm having a lot of trouble empathizing with them because I see the world differently, that's going to create a little bit of tension, a little bit of stress, maybe some anxiety inside your body. It's not going to feel good. And a lot of times doing the right thing strategically in these conversations doesn't feel good because it requires a lot of restraint. If somebody says something that you disagree with, you're going to want to counter that. But that isn't what will get you to where you want to go. Not a direct counter. You have to respond with curiosity, empathize, understand, and then once they feel heard, then you can share your piece. I think that's really important. All right, how do you revisit a conversation in which your experience was denied or invalidated? So this is good. This is really good. What I would do is, first of all, we have to have that secondary conversation. I think that's really, really important. And I think no matter what happens in a conversation, if a conversation goes poorly, I think most people can kind of feel that. Right. And so what we would do is lean into the conversation and try to get a better understanding of what it is that they're saying while communicating your piece as well. So the, the example that I like to give for how to start a conversation as a difficult conversation or otherwise is a simple formula. Situation, impact, invitation. Situation, impact, invitation. So with situation, what we're going to do is we're going to describe the situation using what I would call naked facts. So these are facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment or opinion. Next, we're going to talk about the impact and we're going to try to personalize this as much as possible, say the impact it had on you, because that's more difficult to counter or be against. And then lastly, we're going to focus on the invitation. So we're going to invite them to have the conversation. Nobody likes being ambushed, so it's going to have to be an invitation. And so we're going to ask them when is a good time for them to have the conversation, now or later. So let's use the example that you said. So revisiting a conversation where your experience was denied or invalidated. So what I do is this situation, hey, last week we had a conversation, period. That is the situation. There's nothing that anybody can counter with that. You just want to describe it as neutrally as possible so they can understand where we're going but not counter what we're saying. Right. So yesterday, last week we had a conversation. I didn't feel as though I, I got my point across in that conversation. Okay. And then I'd like to have a follow up conversation with you so we can kind of get a better understanding of each Other because you're somebody that I care about or I respect, we're going to be working together in the future and I think it'll be good for us to kind of get on the same page, something really simple like that. And that's a freestyle, that's no prep. But again, what you're showing is that in 10 to 15 seconds you can simply articulate what it is that you want to do in a conversation. And starting a conversation in a way that's non threatening for the other side. Then when you're in the conversation, what I would do is I would start with curiosity. I'd first say, hey, what was your perspective on that conversation? How do you think it went? Okay. And then out of curiosity, if you were to guess, how do you think I felt about the conversation? Right. I want to get, I want to hear it from their perspective because what I'm doing is aiming. A lot of times we go into these conversations and we just start saying what we want to say, not knowing whether or not we're articulating it in a way that would be received by the other side. And so by getting their perspective first, now I have a clearer target on how I'm going to articulate my point. But first I want to see how they're seeing it. So then I could follow up and talk about how I'm seeing it. And then we could focus on the future. So again, one thing to keep in mind is that negative emotions often live in the past. So if you are having a conversation that is largely in the past tense, that's where blame lives and nobody wants to hold onto the blame. And so one of the best things you can do to remove the level of emotionality in a conversation is simply shifting the grammatical tense of the conversation to the future. So I call this future focused problem solving. So I'm not going to try to relitigate what was or was not said in the past. But what I will do is try to make sure that me and the other side, how we can together through this conversation, make sure that we don't find ourselves in that position again. And if we focus on contribution, we'll recognize that there are things that the other side could do differently to make sure that we don't find ourselves in the same position. And there are other things that we could do differently to make sure we don't find ourselves in that situation. And so instead of thinking about this conversation as a confrontation, it's a negotiation. We're negotiating on behalf of the relationship and making sure that going forward, we have a relationship that is tenable, workable for both parties. Awesome question. Awesome. Awesome question. Cool. Hey, Pat, good to see you. Just ask a person who you do not line up with about their life story or professional vision and just watch them. Watch and listen. My guess is that the trust badges. Trust bridge is clearer. Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And you recognize, you're recognizing this pattern. You can't empathize without listening. You can't create those connections without listening. Listening is a fundamental element of this. But when you are triggered, when you're emotional, when you're afraid, we listen differently. Right? We're listening for offense. We're listening for problems. We're listening for opportunities to attack. But instead, if you can sit back and trust your skills in the conversation, you can open yourself up to what the person is saying while recognizing, as long as you have the right skill set, it doesn't necessarily need to be a threat to you. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Awesome. This was fun. This was fun. I appreciate it. 40 minutes. That's pretty solid. That's pretty solid for a podcast episode in LinkedIn Live. So I appreciate this. Hey, hey. Check out Negotiate Anything on your podcast player of choice. Leave a comment, subscribe, review whatever platform you happen to be listening to. You know, show some love, because that. That makes the algorithm look favorably upon us. And so we want to get this free content out to as many people as we can. So I appreciate your support and your energy and your questions. This was really, really helpful. And I will be back in about a couple of weeks. All right? So it's good seeing all of you. Appreciate it. I'll catch you later. Congratulations. 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