Confronting Bias: Navigating Salary Negotiations at the Executive Level with Mita Mallick

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted special specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Meera, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I am a passionate storyteller. I've been writing for as long as I can remember. I'm a business leader. I'm a diversity, equity and inclusion champion. I am a soon to be author and most importantly mom to Jay. As I was telling you, who's 10 going on 26th grader. Priya, who's eight going on 18, third grader. And so a lot of fun, as you were saying as well, but a lot of work.

Fantastic. This is exciting. And before we get into the actual interview, tell us about the upcoming book.

So the book is called reimagine inclusion debunking 13 myths to transform your workplace. It's available right now on Amazon for pre order or check out your independent bookseller near you. And gosh, I wrote the book four years ago. It has been quite a journey to get it published. I'm so excited for you and the world to read it. I wanted to say the quiet parts out Loud of what holds us back from making meaningful progress in the workplace. So I took the angle of myths and the things that we hold on to that aren't true. And so I wanted to debunk those and really get people to pay attention to a topic right now that in the US A lot of backlash on diversity, equity, and inclusion. So either it's the best time, Kwame, or the worst time to be publishing this book. I'm going to say the best time. The best time.

That is great. I'm excited. And I love the framing, too, of myths as well. This is. This is really exciting. And when you reached out to come on the podcast, you had a really interesting topic that you wanted to discuss. Can you set the stage for the listeners?

Yes. So 13 myths. It's quite an expansive book. One of the myths that I finally had the courage to talk about. And I have been so overwhelmed by the responses I've been getting from both women and men when I've been sharing the topic. And it is myth six for our listeners. When you pre order your book and you receive it, you'll see Myth six. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money. I'll share the story with you in a second in detail. And what I really wanted to Kwame, talk about in this myth is that there is a myth that white women and women of color don't negotiate. And I've had a complicated cultural relationship with money where I was taught not to talk about money. How do you negotiate if you don't talk about money? And over the years, I had upskilled myself on how to ask for more. And yet the myth I want to debunk is oftentimes when we do ask for more, we are gaslit, dismissed, or minimized. And so that is really the unpacking of that story and the myth.

There is so much to explore. Okay, and now let's not assume. When you say gaslit, can you define that for the audience, too?

Gaslit. Gaslighting is really about psychological abuse that happens in the workplace. It also happens in personal relationships, but it is about being dismissed, being minimized. The best example of gaslighting I can say is if we were sitting next to each other recording this, and I just slapped you across the face, and you said, mita, why'd you slap me across the face? And I said, no, I didn't. So it starts to question your sense of reality. You'll be set up to fail. People will lie to your face and then say, wait, I did say that. And so it alters what you think is true. And so in that situation, it's almost like, why would you even ask for more? You should be grateful. Why do you need more money? What are you even talking about? And then maybe a follow up conversation. Do you remember when I asked you to review my pay? No, you didn't. But. No, you didn't. You didn't ask for me to look at your pay. And you're like, wait, I have an email. I remember the date with my performance review. Am I imagining this? What happened? They try to rock your sense of reality.

This is powerful. Because what we're doing here is we're addressing one of those shadow negotiations that happens because a lot of times when we talk about negotiations, you look up how to have a salary negotiation. There is an assumption that everybody is on the same page, that a negotiation is in fact occurring.

There you go.

Right. And it can really throw you up if it's like, wait, I'm having a conversation about compensation and you're acting like we're not, or you're denying the fact that I did. And so now you're in this position where you're like, am I crazy? Or like, are we in an alternate new universe? And you start to question reality, you start to lose confidence. And then if you're losing confidence and not sure what, like what real is anymore, it makes it really tough for you to negotiate and advocate for yourself.

Absolutely. And in this myth, every chapter myth in reimagined inclusion opens up with a powerful story, something that I witnessed in corporate America, something that I experienced. And in this, in this case, I had been working for a former manager. And you've seen this in the marketplace. A few things happened. A lot of external talent had joined the leadership team and they were being paid more than me. But we had similar years of experience. Right? So watch for that. In terms of pay inequities, when you bring in external talent and you decide they're more valuable than the internal talent, do we punish loyalty is a question I always ask. Right. Second, I also knew my points on the board, the impact I had made for the company. And then third, I knew what this role was valued in the marketplace. And so during performance review time, picked the right time, had a great review, and at the end said, would you be able to review my compensation and get back to me? And this was the person's response, well, Mita. And he did chuckle. You and your. Why are you asking for a raise? You and your husband make more than enough money. Because somehow he had found out what my husband did for a living, which, oh, by the way, Kwame, I had actually tried to hide, because these are the mental gymnastics we have to do at work. I knew. I knew if people knew, they would decide to pay me less, which is what he did. Because what do you say to a response like that? Well, you're the. You have the deep negotiating expertise. You're sort of stunned into silence. And I wish I had said in the moment I was stunned into silence. I wish I had said, what does my husband's job have anything to do with the value I bring into the organization? But honestly, I was so stunned that anyone would ever say that to me. And I felt ashamed. I felt embarrassed, and I was angry. I felt all of those things when I heard the response.

Yeah, Mita, I think this brings up a really great point here, too, because one of the things that makes negotiations so difficult is that you cannot predict what is going to happen. And you find yourself in these situations where something so off the wall happens that you're, like you said, you're stunned into silence. What do we do? And so let's say you said. Actually, let me phrase this differently. So you came up with what I call a shower comeback. So what? I. I talked about this in my first book. It's like a conversation happens, and then you're like, what in the world just happened? I don't know what to say. And then you're taking a shower and you're like, you know what? I should have said this.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Rewind, rewind. In my head. I love that.

Exactly. So we all come up with shower comebacks. Now, let's say, hypothetically, you could go back in that exact same situation, but you still were stunned and didn't know exactly what to say. What would you do?

What would I do? I'll tell you what I did do moving forward, because here's the thing. Power, politics, and privilege are all real in our workplaces. While my shower moment was amazing, if I had done that, that would have further antagonized this individual. And I knew that from a negotiation product. If I did that and I said, thank you for the review was what I said. I was stunned. I stopped for a bit. He rambled, and then I said, thank you for the review. So what I have done successfully since then is I always say to people, I wish I had learned this lesson earlier in my career, do not tie your Fortunes to the boss. Do not tie all of your fortunes to your boss at work. Because I've had some great bosses and as you just heard, some not so great bosses. Your bosses won't always advocate for your career or your pay. And so in one case, I remember going to a white man who was on the executive team and he and I had a great relationship and I knew I was being underpaid and this was for a different role, but I didn't have a great relationship with my boss. And again, this person was not interested in looking at my compensation. I actually opened a conversation with him to say, let's say it was Kwame. I was like, kwame, we're having our one on one catch up. Can I ask you for some advice?

Absolutely, yeah, of course.

Yeah. How do you negotiate for pay? What have you found successful in your career because you're now at the exec level, just would love some career advice. And so most people love talking about themselves and giving advice. And so at the end of that, he became curious as to why I was asking. Well, I feel like we have a trusted relationship. So I'm struggling with my pay here. He asked me to pull some documents together. He then behind the scenes went and fought for my pay and got it for me. And this was years ago. And so I learned from that situation that the bias was real and that boss was never going to pay me what I deserved. But who else had a seat at the table? Something that a career sponsor said to me years ago, I'll never forget Gail Tifford. She said to me, do you know who's fighting for you when the doors are closed and they're talking about your career? And I said, doors are closed and people are talking about my career. I was so naive when I started Corporate America. I didn't know they had these big talent reviews. Right? But that's the thing. If it's your boss who's the only one who's supposed to be fighting for you, and they're not going to fight for you, figure out who's else is at that table who will fight for you and fight for your pay. So that's how I just started to think more about the system, unfortunately.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower Professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or, or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate, master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. It's powerful and it's empowering too. Because a lot of times when you found yourself in this situation, especially when you find yourself in a situation like this over and over and over again, you develop learned helplessness. You say, what's the point? I, I can't get ahead. And what you're saying is, hey, bias is real. Okay, I accept that. I understand that politics are real. The structures that I'm working against, these are real. They're real barriers. Okay, Roger that. Mission accepted. So I'm going to create another path to success. And the more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve victory. And so you've recognized, hey, this person is not my champion. That's fine, I can find another one. And I think it's so powerful too, framing this in terms of advice because it is so endearing and non threatening.

Yes.

Because whenever, whenever people ask me about how do I negotiate when I don't have any power within the workplace, just do the exact same thing, but frame it in terms of advice and the same principles work.

Absolutely. And I am the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents and my parents gave me a lot of gifts and some of them didn't serve me well in corporate America. My dad used to always say, keep your head down, work hard and you will be recognized. And stay out of trouble. My dad, rest in peace. I always remember him for that. He always said that to me and that's great advice. And the problem was I spent too many years of my career like this. I was looking down, I was working hard, but I wasn't looking up and I wasn't looking around to think about. Exactly. What we just talked about is that like, who other than my boss should know what I'm working on. And using that as leverage helped me advance my career and get paid because I was doing great work. But it's sort of like I always say, like if you make a great piece of content and watch it in your room all day long, no one knows you. You never posted it, you never shared it. Okay, great. Same thing with the work. Like you have to be finding the champions at work who are going to help you get paid more.

Absolutely. And I think it's so important that you brought in your heritage with this, too, because everybody comes to the table with a background, baggage, perceptions, beliefs. And a lot of them are, they don't belong to us, but we've downloaded them almost passively to the point where we haven't recognized that there could be potentially another way. And I can relate in, you know, different culture, but my family's from the Caribbean, West Indian. So, you know, we, it's that same mentality. Just work hard, be quiet, stay out of trouble, and good things will happen.

Listen, we could have a contest. I might be able to outwork you. Let's see. But I didn't work very smart. Right. I was working hard. I could outwork you, but I was not working smart. And so, yeah, lessons that I wish I knew earlier in my career, but I'm glad that I'm here today with you, where I am in maturity. Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. Because the thing is, it's, it's going to help other people. Other people will be able to look at this, learn from it and, and say, all right, no, I remember what Mita said in her book, I know what I can do now. And, and the thing is, everything that we talked about today, it's not, it is not beyond, beyond comprehension. It's not necessarily like, oh, the strategies or tactics I need to go to get an MBA to put this negotiation advice. It's about understanding the way the game is played and then using the right strategies and tactics.

Speaking of how the game's played, I want your reaction to this as well. I've been talking to a lot, particularly women of color about this, and D.C. marshall and I on the Brown Table Talk podcast have also spilled the tea on this is that I don't have the privilege to wear a hoodie. I can't be Mark Zuckerberg or a tech CEO in a nice sweatshirt and nice jeans and be expected to gain the same level of respect and pay. And at the same time, when I wear my nice jewelry, my logo bags, my nice stilettos, it's a reason people will find to pay me less. And I write about this in this part of the book and I talk about a leadership off site I'm going to at some point in my career. I love my jewelry. I love my jewelry. And I decide not to wear my wedding ring to the off site. And my husband says, well, why aren't you wearing your wedding ring? I said, I'm not going to give them any reason to pay me less. I have been in too many rooms where I've heard MITA carries a Birkin bag to work. She's not here for the job. You don't need to give her 5%. Give her 3%. Mita's husband Jim is in sales. He's killing it again. You could take that merit increase down. Meet is the primary breadwinner. She doesn't need a retention bonus. She's not going anywhere. And so the bias that is real when it comes to women's appearance and the role we expect women to play in society, some of the times they're deep seated, cultural. We've been raised with them. They're in our homes, in our families, film, tv, and then we come into work with them versus, you know, men. It's funny, I feel like my husband could wear like the most expensive suit. I don't know what's an expensive watch? Gucci?

Rolex.

Yeah. What? And he'd be attracting money. Right? And I, Kwame, the more I have this conversation with women, they will say to me, oh, yeah, absolutely. I never wear my nicest things to work, never ever, because I know I'll be judged for them. Even though we have earned them and we deserve them. Did I stump you? Oh, my.

Oh, my gosh.

Hold, hold on.

We can't. Listen, I'm so close to a thousand episodes. I can't go. I cannot break my streak of never being stumped on my own show here. All right, no, no, no, Kwame, you got this. So first, listeners, this is what I'm going to do. Mida can't hear us. All right? So I'm going to ramble a little bit. I'm going to use big words. I'm going to impress her real quick and then, but hopefully in like 30 seconds, I'll come up with an answer. So when you think about the literature of psychology, bias could come in many different ways. And what's interesting is that when you think about the. The like, the trappings of success, that's what it would be called. When you think about Persuasion, the book Persuasion by Robert Cialdini. Oftentimes that's utilized to show authority, credibility, and it makes what you're saying more persuasive. But when I had, I was talking to Alex Carter one time who wrote the.

Oh, my God. You know, she was a part of my journey. She told me to go write this book.

Oh, really? Oh, that's great. So, you know, so.

And she's in my book. Yeah, the tip app asks for more.

Oh, that's perfect. Yeah. Because one of one time she. She said, when. When I walk Into a negotiation. People don't see me coming. Literally, they don't. I'm five foot two. I'm very small. Right. And it made me really think about just the way that you're perceived, how it can change the way your persuasion works. Because if you are a person who writes a book like Robert Cialdini, very respected white male trappings of success could work. And what you're saying is that the exact same thing, if I wear my best stuff, I could be penalized for it. And I think when it comes to negotiation strategy, of course bias is real. It is a subconscious preference toward or prejudice against someone or something. It's real. And so I think about it not from a disempowering perspective. I think about it from a more a strategic perspective. It's just another layer of strategy that I consider. So now that we know about the biases that could be against you for wearing those types of clothes, we have to create a strategy that allows you to, number one, be authentic in what you wear. Because look good, feel good, you're going to perform better, but at the same time, not invite unnecessary scrutiny for what you wear. Now, as somebody who doesn't know much about women's fashion, I don't know what does that.

Well, let me tell you two things. I told Alex Carter that story years ago, and she said, you got to write a book and you have to put it in there. So full circle. So. And her book is amazing. And the thing that I want to say, I want people to really listen to, if this is not your lived experience, the mental gymnastics, because I am using that as a negotiating tactic, I know it will be weaponized against me. I know. So why did I choose to leave my jewelry at home when I went to the leadership off site? Why did I choose to park my BMW car two lots away in a moment in my career when I found a senior leader had also the same model as me? Right. So it's a constant. And by the way, I don't even like cars. That's my husband's car. He wanted that car. But how could it be that I, at the time, was starting my career and I was driving the same fancy car as like the senior vice president of the division? How are people going to perceive me? And so I have used that as part of my negotiating arsenal. I know it's going to be used against me, but imagine how painful it is for us to have to do that. It's.

I keep on thinking about this because my journey is different, but I think about how my personal style developed too, because I was like, I thought about the same thing. Tech entrepreneurs, the tech bros, they wear T shirts. So I was wearing like the ani T shirts around and then I would put that under, like under a jacket. Wasn't getting the responses that I want. And then I was like, all right, cool. And you know, full disclosure, I also got flamed by a lot of my friends, so I hired a stylist. So now, oh, I'm always wearing a suit, turtleneck, crew neck, pocket square, everything like that. And I've recognized the reception has been a little. Has been more positive as well. And I'm wondering, let's actually play through this because there's. I, I, given my lived experience, I'm not a woman of color, so I can't relate to this, nor have I seen anybody actually speak about this strategically. So all I have are hypotheses. And I'm wondering perhaps if in this scenario, man, I don't know. Because I was going to think of, I was going to say being more assertive with what it is that you're wanting and being more data driven. But then you also have the penalty that comes with assertiveness with women. I am I960 episodes. I'm stumping. I don't know.

No. Well, you asked me what I wear. Now. My friend Elizabeth Lewis, who's a stylist and just launched her online, she really talks about, like, your go to confidence outfits. And for me, now there's this whole trend on quiet luxury. So you can wear what you want as long as there's not labels on it. I'm going to be honest. It's a nice blouse. Do you know where it's from? I'll never tell. I'll never tell, right? There is no Gucci. There's no Chanel. There's nothing on here that would tell you it looks nice, but you're not able to figure out how much you paid for it. And so isn't that a sad strategy? But I look good and I feel good, but I have to really, I really do think about it. And I thought to myself, am I the only one doing this? Until I had it in this book. I started telling girlfriends and a girlfriend of mine said to me, oh, yeah, leave the logo handbag at home. Did not bring that to the leadership off site, huh? Like, I was just talking to a woman earlier today. She's like, oh, I used to do that. I used to park my car in the other lot so my boss wouldn't see what I was driving.

Wow, that is so fascinating. So fascinating. What I would love to see is like a maybe, maybe I make this a post and see what people say too, because I would be interested to see other people's perspectives as well. Because I know I dress better. Things have gotten better for me, you know, I'd be interested.

It also depends if you own your own company, if you are working in a corporation, you're getting a paycheck from someone else who's making decisions for you. It's really interesting. I talked to a woman founder earlier who said, well, I have to sort of think about how I present myself and what I wear when I'm doing business development. If I bring the Louis Vuitton back, do they think I'm making enough and I don't need the business? Do they think I'm showing off too much? Like, wow, so she is a founder who's talking about business development, is going through all of these mental gymnastics on first impressions and what impression she will leave whether she means to or not.

Well, you know, let's play this out. Let's think about business development because in, in a company, we have multiple roles. So let's say if you're negotiating within your company, advocating for yourself to receive higher payment, this is. That was the context here that we've been describing thus far. I wonder if the same person, if they were in business development for the company, if they would be more persuasive, advocating on behalf of the company, having more logos. Because when you think about the studies related to women and negotiation, women are socially penalized when they advocate for themselves, but when they advocate for other people, that penalty doesn't exist as much or their organization. So I'm wondering what effect the fashion would have in that context.

It's possible if it's. If it's the founder who's doing their own business development and there's that penalty versus the person. There's also people who would say, listen, I've been on the side, I've been worked at a lot of big fortune hundred companies. And I might say, well, that's why Kwame's charging so much. Look at the car he drives. I'm just going to continue to stump you until you release me from our conversation. But I might say that, right? Well, look at his fees. Oh, that's why the fees are so high. Look at how much he's charging. You see what he drives. You see where his office is located? Does he has a koi pound in his office now, making up all these Stories about you see all this stuff, this is what he's paying for. And if there's something about you, this is how the narrative starts. I perceive some sort of difference, and rather than trying to connect, I start to see things and start to push you away in my mind and start to create this narrative. Because if I actually trusted you, was working with you, valued your expertise, we had a great meeting about the services you would offer me and my company and team and you left, I would be less likely to scrutinize those things. But if there's like something I perceive that's different, I might start to pick up on those things and create a narrative about you. Tell my procurement people, go back to Kwame's team. I know the rate is too high. I saw what you were driving.

I'm going to need to block people from my Instagram. That's what I'm going to need to do next time I'm negotiating a big deal. This is fascinating. Okay, let me ask you one last question. One last question. So when we think about and. And I want you to be like brutally honest with this because this was a hypothesis I had in my last book about difficult conversations about race. So I'm thinking about trust. Trust, you feel that automatically with somebody. So you don't do like a five point analysis or whatever to see whether or not you trust somebody. It's kind of like a gut feeling. So I think about trust like a positive bias. And I'm wondering if. If you're intentional about building the relationship with the person and creating more trust so you get a little bit more of that positive bias and positive momentum in your favor, whether or not you believe that could help to protect you a little bit when it comes to these biases.

I would agree. Why do we create biases and stereotypes? It's when we other people and we don't want to create the emotional space, the mental capacity, energy to get to know people as people. Right. So when I get to know you as a person, I don't have any stereotypes for bias. You're just Kwami, my friend.

Yeah.

Who happens to be a big time negotiating expert and all that's like, that's like. That's not what you're known like as a per. I get to know you as a person, as an individual, and then the rest follows. But when I don't, that's what becomes. It's all about appearances and snap judgments. Or in the case when you find out how much my husband makes or what you think he makes or what he does for a living, all of a sudden, that becomes the narrative on how you want to compensate me.

Incredible. No, this is, it's so fascinating, but again, ultimately empowering because what you've done in this episode is that you've, you've said, yeah, these are, this is the reality, and here are the tools to overcome it. So if there is that fashion bias, okay, cool, here's a way you can look good, feel good without that penalty. If it is negotiating with somebody who doesn't really have your back and they have more power and authority in the organization, switch it to asking for advice. And then, just in general, we recognize that taking the time to create a deeper relationship and connection with somebody can help to insulate you from some of those biases, because you're not othered. You are just another one of the people within their tribe. So this is really empowering. And if this is just us dissecting myth number six, you know, we're just getting started.

We're getting started. But let me tell you, listeners, this is my advice and my story. Please don't come after me and say, I told you not to bring the Chanel bag to work and I told you to park your car two lots over. I'm just shedding some light and spilling some tea on the things I faced in my career and how I've used things that would have been weaponized. I've strategized on how to actually use those things in my favor.

Listen me to Good save. Both of us being on the LinkedIn podcast network. Who knows Chanel BMW, they might be sponsored. They might be on this episode today. We don't know. So good save. We're both still employed by LinkedIn.

This is great.

So before you go, just remind them about the book and your podcast and how they can get in touch.

Yes. Reimagine Inclusion Debunking 13 Myths to Transform your workplace. If you loved our conversation, you're going to love the book. Please go check it out. It's available on Amazon for pre order and any of your independent booksellers in a neighborhood near you. And then check out Brown Table Talk podcast. I'm so proud that we're both part of the LinkedIn podcast network that is called Brown Table Talk with my friend D.C. marshall. And check it out. We do have an episode that's entitled I Don't have the privilege to wear a Hoodie.

So this is great, listeners. We will put links to everything in the description of this episode. Mita, thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.

Thank you.

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