Conquer Fear, Advocate for Yourself: Insights from Laurie Ruettimann

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Laurie, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, my goodness, I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it is our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. Well, the way that we've been trained to do this is to talk about our careers. So I'm a writer, a speaker, an entrepreneur, and I'm focused on the agency space. But I like to tell people what I do when I'm not working. I think that's so much more interesting. And, you know, when I'm not working, I mean, I'm on the Internet like everybody else, but I love art, I love music, and I'm an avid animal rescue advocate. So I try to take all of that and live a life of purpose and service where I help people fix work. That's what I'm all about.

Oh, that's fantastic. And so for the listeners, when you think about fixing work, what does that mean to you?

Sure. Well, you know, I started out my career in corporate human resources, and I was young and naive, and it was back in the day when Friends was on TV the first time like, not even in reruns. So that's how long I've been working. Well, over 20 years. It's terrible, but I, you know, worked in HR and I got to see the good, the bad, the ugly of every organization. And then during the Great Recession, I had this moment that I write about in my book, Betting on youn, where I'm at the airport and like a stereotypical lady, I just have a breakdown. I'm tired, I'm hangry, I'm eating Starbursts for dinner in between flights, drinking Pepsi, reading Us Weekly, and wondering why everybody has negotiated a better life for themselves. And I'm like, why not me? And the answer is, well, why the heck not you? But it doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen by just rage quitting your job. It happens by taking smart and calculated risks. So since that point, I've been on a journey to figure out how to take those risks myself and communicate them to my audience. So that's what I do, man, all day, every day.

I love it. This is great. So it sounds like what you've been able to do is really focus on doing what's best for you and taking that risk to live the life of purpose you always wanted to live.

You know that's right. I think something is totally missed. In our society, we're all hyper focused on our job titles, but. But I truly believe that your work is not your worth. When you're born in this world, you deserve love and attention and affection and food and shelter and education just because you were born. But so often we think it's all about what's my job title and where do I work and what kind of car do I drive. And so I fundamentally believe humanity just deserves all these good things in the world. And because of that, I don't identify with my career. And I've learned this idea of detachment, and I want to teach that to other people so that they can go to work and behave with integrity and do a job worth doing because it's worth doing well and then come home and live a life of purpose and meaning. So it's all about that intersection of purpose and meaning for me.

Absolutely. And one of the things that I've realized over the years of doing the podcast and doing the trainings and everything is that, yes, I can teach people how to negotiate, but that's only half the battle. Because if the people are afraid of taking the step and actually having the negotiation, they're not going to do what they need to do. And one of the things that we talked about just in our prep was the idea of de risking negotiation. How can we make it seem a little bit less risky so we can then have the conversations that we need to have in order to live the life that we want to live. So let's just start off about, with talking about the reality of fear and then we can talk about how we can de risk that negotiation process.

Well, you know, fear is often based in a story we tell ourselves. I'm not Brene Brown, I'm not anybody, you know, who's like a self help author here. But it's just a fact that fear is often a perspective. Fear is not reality based. And so to really understand that and to act on that are two different things. So when I talk about fear, when I teach people about fear, I just kind of skip over the self help stuff and I go straight to action because people aren't really interested anymore in the psychology of it. They want to know how to break that fear down. So I teach them a technique called the pre mortem. And I don't know, have you ever heard of the pre mortem? Do you know what that is?

It has been a while. It has been a while. But you are the expert, so I want to make sure you shine on this.

Sure, no problem. Well, a pre mortem is the opposite of a postmortem. So when we're lawyers or accountants or human resources professionals, we're very well versed in the post mortem because we do something and it fails and we blame people. And then we write it all down and maybe we put it in a digital folder or even a real binder and put it on the shelf. And when we go to do that thing, we never look at that binder again. We're just like, oh, last time it failed, but this time it's going to be different. So the pre mortem flips the script and instead of looking back retrospectively and going, oh, things are going to be fine, what you do is you take a minute, just a minute, and you ask yourself, how is the thing I'm about to do going to fail? Not how might it fail, not how could it fail, but how will it fail? And this is rooted in, of course, the philosophy of the Stoics. But it's taught at universities, at Cornell, at Stanford, at University of Michigan. Dr. Gary Klein has brought this to NASA, IBM, Cisco. The pre mortem is this tool where people sit down and just for a little bit go, how is this thing we're about to do going to fail, they make a list. The good, the bad, the ugly. And when the timer goes up, they talk about it, and they tick the things off and figure out how they're going to fix it. If you proactively fix the things that are going to go wrong that you know about, you improve your chance of success by over 30%. It's a huge competitive advantage. And, Kwame, it gives you opportunity to fail in new and more interesting ways. So that's why I love the pre mortem. And I teach it for people who are negotiating a new position at work. They're negotiating their way through a difficult interview, or they're even just trying to figure out, like, where do I want to go on vacation? How is this going to fail? My husband and I used it when we decided to remodel our kitchen. We asked ourselves, how is this going to fail? And it turns out I can't stick to a budget. So we never remodeled the kitchen. And we're still married. You know, it's been 20 years. We're good, you know. So the pre mortem is a tool that's so flexible, so agile, and I absolutely love it.

This is great. And so, you know, I thought I was talking to Lori Ruderman, but it turns out I'm talking to Marcus Aurelius, because now we were going into stoic philosophy. So let's get there, because earlier on, when you said detachment, I was like, that sounds like a little bit of stoicism. And you're absolutely right. And I love the pre mortem and doing the pre mortem with my team because it helps us to realize some of the points of failure that we will often miss. Because I am hopelessly optimistic, and I just say, ah, things will work out fine. And then I don't, like, consider those points of failure. And we always change and tweak our approach because we go through that process. So it's very powerful. But what's funny is that I never considered it applied to negotiation for some reason. And I want to focus in on this really important semantic distinction that you made. Not how could it fail, but how will it fail? And so correct me if I'm wrong on this, Laurie, it sounds like the value in doing that is that not only does it put you through this process that helps you to see particular points of failure, but by choosing will versus could, it forces you to wrestle with that reality of failure and recognize that you can do something about it, which helps you to almost desensitize yourself to a potential failure.

I love that you understand the cognitive distinction. How could you not? I mean, you're brilliant and your listeners are brilliant as well. But you're absolutely right. This distinction between will and could or will and might is so important because might gives you a little bit of emotional distance and it allows you to protect yourself.

I.

How will it fail? Makes you force a reality that most things in this world fail. But because we're only doing it for a couple of minutes, it's a safe place, It's a safe space to explore this idea. And all this is is a cognitive exercise. You don't have to show it to your clients, you don't have to show it to anybody. It's just for you and you alone to understand what the risks are, but also to give you a roadmap to overcome those glitches. So that's why I love the pre mortem. And you are right on the money with that cognitive distinction. Good job. You get an A.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Listen, that's how I stayed married for over a decade. No, this is really helpful. So let's actually talk about this because you brought up a really interesting concept as we were chatting. And it's negotiating a severance from your company when you're transitioning, which can be a terrifying prospect. So let's use that kind of as a case study. So first explain what it is when you're negotiating a severance, those type of things, but also the fear that you might experience and then what a pre mortem might look like in that circumstance. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformation informative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

Well, I certainly empathize with anybody out there in this world who is going through this time of the great resignation and they're moving on. And if you're moving on to a really great job that pays more money and you've got a good title, don't worry about negotiating a severance. You've won the lottery in life. You know you're doing just Fine, you have a family that loves you, it's all good. But if you're stuck in a job that's eating away at your soul and you don't know what's next, and maybe you need a break or your next step isn't necessarily clear and you would like a couple of weeks to figure things out. I teach people in my coaching practice to negotiate a severance like they are a CEO or a CMO or a cio. All the C's, right? The whole C suite. Most of those individuals go into a job at a law firm at, you know, a digital agency with severance front loaded into their employment agreement. So they know no matter what, win or lose, the agency does well or it doesn't, they're going to be just fine. But for ordinary joes like you and me, right, we take a job and then the job's over and then we're just expected to move on. So I teach people to negotiate their severance as if they are a C suite leader. So that looks a lot of different ways depending on where you are in the world, even where you are in the United States, those conversations can be different. And I always recommend that people talk to lawyers when they go through this process as well. But there is a way to have a conversation where you respectfully talk to your manager about what you started to do at the organization and what you're currently doing today. And especially if you have a severance agreement in place that governs your entire organization, there may be ways to pull that apart to show that your job has changed so much and what you're doing is so different that you qualify for the terms and conditions of your existing severance program in the organization. So that's all very nuanced. Where do you start? Well, you first start by asking yourself, if I asked for a severance package, how would this fail? Well, you may not be informed about what the company has to offer. You may not know, because you haven't talked to anybody about this at your organization, that someone got perp walked out the door when they did this last time. Or maybe you don't know that someone did this and they got the severance package like that, because you have no idea. You've not talked to anybody in your organization. Maybe you're not a good communicator, maybe you get super sweaty or you don't make good eye contact or you can't tell a story. Write all of those things down, good, bad, ugly, and then come to me and I'll have a conversation with you about where we go next. So it's my favorite thing to do in the world, mostly because I was taught how to do it. And once I mastered it, I did it at three organizations. And then I'm like, oh, my God, I'm the CEO of my own career. I got to teach this to other people.

And.

And I have a very high success rate when we do this. So I'm very pleased with this. I write about it in my book in chapter eight. Go to your local library. Take it out. Go read it. But I'm so excited to help people live their lives as if they're their own CEOs.

Yeah, this is great. And really what we're finding is that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And I don't know, maybe I should make that the slogan of my company or something. Oh, wait, it is. But you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right, because, again, it's something scary, but we take that risk, that calculated risk, and then there's something better on the other side. But what you've demonstrated, though, is that there is a process. There's a way to do it. And one of the things that's scary in life in general, but in particular in this situation is that not only are we doing something scary, but we don't even know where to start or how to start. And what I like about this process is that you've given us a clear place on where we can start.

Just start writing. You know, everybody can do a list like, I'm not asking you to be Ernest Hemingway. You know, nobody is asking you to write a novel here. But to write a quick list of the things you don't know or the ways you may fail gives you a really good way to anchor your journey going forward. Because if you don't know if anybody has ever asked for a severance package at your company, you can start to ask your friends and your buddies. Maybe you can sidle up to HR and kind of test the waters and see what they have to say. Maybe you can go talk to an executive or who left the organization that you're connected with on LinkedIn. There are a million ways to get the details here. You can be the Sherlock Holmes of your own life. Right. But that list from the pre mortem is a great way to start.

Yeah, I love that. And now when we're talking about overcoming negotiation, fear, the pre mortem is a great way to do it. And this is the first time that we've talked about that. The Pre mortem as applied to negotiation on this podcast. And we're almost 500 episodes in, so gold star for sure.

New for everybody. I love it.

Love it. Yeah. That is great. And so now, in your experience, when you in your own life and with the people that you've worked with, what are some other tools that you've utilized to help people to overcome that fear and take the step to have those tough conversations?

Well, you know, I'm going to say something that is a little controversial, especially as a coach. But a lot of times coaches will pretend to be the be all, end all to their clients. And I have a writer in my coaching contract that says at any point if I feel you need to talk to someone, a therapist, a counselor, an advisor, you will, or we do not continue on in our coaching relationship. And I have invoked that, especially during COVID because I feel like so many people bring their family of origin trauma to work and to negotiation. They bring their issues with their parents, they bring their issues with their partners and their spouses, all the chaos in the world, all of the imposter syndrome, and they expect to a coach to have answers. And this is a journey of a lifetime. And also, I'm not licensed in this area. So for me, the best recommendation I have learned to make, and this is something I have had to learn how to do for my clients, is to say, we need to stop right here and you need to go talk to somebody. And you know, from my background in human resources, I know the EAP is one of the most underutilized benefits in all of corporations. Like, it's got a utilization rate of under 20%. People just don't use it. And often if you have an employee assistance program, you get at least three free sessions per incident. You call a 1, 800 number. It's confidential, and it's like therapy light. It's like dealing with something in the moment and then they can make recommendations on where to go from there. But it's a good entryway to talk about who you are and what's bothering you in this world. Because on the other side of fear, like behind the scenes of fear, is often issues related to your family or issues related to your childhood. And if you bring those into the negotiation, you're gonna lose. So it's up to you. You can deal with them in therapy or you can lose it. Negotiation. I don't know what you wanna do, but for me, I would rather deal with those with a licensed therapist. So that's my recommendation.

There are so many gems here. So let's talk about the general to the specific. So generally I think that this is a great move that you've done and I want to highlight this to the listeners too, because what you've done is essentially similar to a pre mortem. You've pre negotiated a potential issue. So instead of down the road where you realize, oh, you know what, you need to see a therapist, now you have a difficult conversation and you have to persuade somebody that way before it becomes an issue, you say, hey, hypothetically, if this becomes an issue, this is how we are going to handle this. And so you avoid that emotional resistance because they say to themselves, hey, okay, fine, no problem, I'll be able to.

Handle the contract, right?

But now it's in the contract. So once you get to that point, it's not a difficult conversation or as difficult because you're saying, are you going to adhere to this contract that you have signed? So now it's just holding them to their agreement, they've already committed. So I think that's a brilliant negotiation maneuver just in that realm. But then as it relates to the specificity of what you said about the necessity of therapy, I think about therapy like a personal trainer. So I have a body, I am not a personal trainer, I'm not a doctor, right. So even though I've spent 33 years with my body, there are things I don't know about it. So I need to talk to a professional about it. And so it doesn't need to be an acute issue of psychosis or something like that. If you are off, see a therapist. I've seen a therapist, I've seen some regularly. I text him all the time. And you know what he tells me you need therapy, you know, and so there's no shame in that, no shame in that. So I appreciate that you're normalizing that because a lot of times the barriers that we face are from the past and to the last point that you made, you said that you could either get therapy or you could lose a negotiation. Here's the scary thing, Lori, because I've seen this happen too. Because if people are not self aware enough to recognize what their troubles are, their challenges are, and they hide from that by not getting the help that they need. They could go into the negotiation, they could do a pre mortem, they could go to Ani's website, americannegotiationinstitute.comguide and get the free negotiation guides and prepare effectively, they can go into the negotiation and do exactly what they wanted to do and get the exact outcome that they wanted and still fail because it's not what they should have been going for. Right. So you have to really exorcise those demons and there's a clear pathway, but a lot of people don't take it well.

So well said. You know, I love where you're coming from because you're right. So many people who are not self aware negotiate for something that's not what they really want in the first place. Truman Capote once said, more tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered prayers. So if you get what you want, you better be careful because you may not want it in the first place. So I think the idea of going to therapy, even if it's just for a short time stint, is so helpful for so many people who are at an inflection point. Unfortunately, you know, when you're dealing with high powered individuals, executives, leaders, it's very difficult for them to find the time or to feel vulnerable. And I actually had someone say to me just recently, if I even touch that point of vulnerability, I'm afraid of where it's going to go and I need to show up and I need to perform. And I totally get that and I totally respect that. But you're either going to touch it now or you're going to touch it at some point when you can't control it. So it's best to do it in a means in which you choose, through a therapist, through eap, so that it doesn't bubble up when you least expect it and it's not convenient. So, you know, this is a random conversation we're having, but an important one. Because if I can say one thing over and over again, it's that I am a huge fan of the employee assistance program and if your organization doesn't have one, you need one.

Agreed? Agreed. Note to self. For my growing company with employees, get an EAP message. Note to self. Very good. Very.

I'll be your HR lady today. There you go.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Okay, well, listen, we are coming up on time, but before you go, I want to give the listeners an opportunity to get in touch with you, learn about your work. You forgot to shout out your podcast, so make sure you shout that out. So give them the details.

Well, thank you for the opportunity, everybody. Listen, I believe that relationships drive this world. So come and find me on LinkedIn. Have a listen to my podcast, punkrockhr.com where we talk to people who take a counterintuitive way of fixing work and certainly go to the library and get my book, Betting on youn. It was new last year. It's new in paperback this year. But we're also in a weird time and librarians miss you. So go to the library. I'm okay with that. So, Kwame, again, thank you for the opportunity just to say hi and spend a little bit of time with you and your listeners.

Yeah, it's our pleasure. Thanks again for coming on. Congratulations. You've just joined an elite club by listening to a full episode. You're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episode of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.