Constructing Deals: Ron Hogen's Guide to Successful Business Negotiations

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Ron, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you, Kwame. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, it's my pleasure, man. So how about you get us started by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Okay. My name is Ron Hogan. I am a project manager and a partner at Behrend Construction and Remodeling with. We are a construction company focusing on residential remodels in the Bay Area. So Bay area of California, Silicon Valley area, and then we also have an office in Los Angeles.

Fantastic. And hey listeners, I know you are probably listening on the podcast, but if you have a chance, you gotta check out the YouTube when we post this episode. Cause yes, Ron is in construction, but he is a former rock star and he looks a lot cooler than me today.

I don't look like maybe your typical general contractor now.

That's awesome.

Well, cool.

So today we're going to talk about negotiating big ticket items. And so you're coming from the construction world, but I think there are a lot of gems that we can use to apply to the business world in general. And so when it comes to negotiating bigger items, bigger deals, why is it so Important for us to understand how to do this effectively.

So there's a lot of things that go into the negotiation, especially in construction. So you're up against a lot when you're sitting across from somebody and to sort of generalize to big ticket items. When a person is a homeowner sitting across from you and is thinking about doing a $100,000, $200,000, $500,000 million dollar construction project, it's a ton of money that's going in. Obviously, it's most likely their most expensive asset. It's most likely the thing that they're going to, the thing that they've spent the most money on in their lives. And so there's a lot of mental blocks that goes into that and there's a lot that you're up against because you know, for me, for instance, I'm doing this every single day. So it's not that big of a deal for me. But for the person sitting across from me, they may be doing this once in their entire lives. And so there's just so much information that they have. There's so much information that they don't know. And, and there's so many things you're really working to get through those blockades with them rather than trying to. That's really what you're, what you're up against. Those are the emotional stressors that people are talking to you about rather than just what's a kitchen, what's a remodel, what's a bathroom remodel. And that's really the important part in negotiation is really trying to understand what they're up against, what their fears are and how to get through that and to find common ground with that person.

Love it. Yeah, man, this is great. And so the three things that we're going to focus on in today's episode are first, overcoming those emotional distractions that you just addressed. Talking about the biggest mistake that people can make when it comes to having these high level negotiations. And then lastly, we're going to wrap it up with how you can build rapport in these stressful situations. So let's start off with overcoming emotional distractions. What are the things we need to know about there?

So a couple of things that I like to say to people, especially people that are sort of like new to this industry or new to our company or sort of starting off, is that there's a couple things to take into consideration. So first of all, I like to always say to never assume the intention of the other person of the other party, right? So a lot of times we get conversations with people where they are asking for things that are somewhat illogical or they don't seem logical to us. So, obviously, the proprietary professional, you always want to have a chance to be able to give your insight, give your input, but you have to know, kind of like when those things are important and when those things are relevant to say. Because a lot of times, you know, homeowners tell me this all the time, that every other contractor they have seen has tried to, like, force some idea down their throat whether that's, you know, oh, that's not a good layout. That's not how you should be doing it. You should be building more, you should be building less, whatever it may be. It's really important to listen. And actually, I learned that from you, Kwame, from listening to your show over and over again, that one of the things that I've heard you say in the past is the 70, 30 rule, right? So it's 30% listening, 70% talking. And that's something that's really important and was a really important lesson for me because so often you're in the seat of the professional. You're trying to sort of show how much you know, right? And you're trying to show how good you are, but really, that can come at a cost. And a lot of times, if you spend a little bit more time listening, you get more of a chance to kind of understand what the person's needs are. And oftentimes I can really flip the script for you and really kind of give you a different sense of what it was that you. You know, what it was that they wanted in the first place or what the negotiation. Negotiation might have been. The other thing to keep in mind was. The other thing to keep in mind is to like. Something that I always tell people is to just keep your. To try and provide the most value for the person sitting across from you rather than trying to sell or rather than trying to focus on. On really getting a contract or getting a new job or whatever. It may be a lesson that took me some time to learn and something that I was taught and that was really helpful was to just in the conversation solely 100% focus on what value you can bring to the person sitting across from you. How do you help them understand the construction process better? And when the focus shifts, that's when common ground and negotiation starts to get really good, because then they see you as a valuable asset. And when you become a valuable asset, that makes you invaluable to the process of construction. I've learned that over and over and over again.

Yeah, this is great. And it's so funny because we framed this first part of the podcast interview as overcoming emotional distractions. But what we're recognizing is that we shouldn't just focus on their emotional distractions, their fear, those type of things. But. But our own emotional distractions, too, because arrogance is an emotional distraction. Right? Because we say, okay, I know everything. These are newbies. Okay, let me educate them. Let me tell them. And the phrase that you use that I thought was great, how can I help them to understand, Right?

Yes.

It's a collaborative thing. Even the learning aspect of the interaction is collaborative. And I think just that mental shift really helps in your approach.

That's a really good segue to my favorite line that. I don't know if I came up with this or not, but I'm going to own it.

It's yours now.

But I like to say, and I like to tell people to take 100% responsibility and 0% blame. So before I go on with that, did you make that up, Kwame? Did I hear that from you or did I?

No. You know, it's funny because it mirrors something that was from the crucial conversations, folks talking about shame, blame versus contribution. But I love the fact that you're saying you just own 100% of it. This is great. And so explain to the listeners why that's so important.

Okay, so what I like to say is take 100% responsibility and 0% blame. Now, this can be generalized, like, definitely not just the construction negotiations, definitely not to negotiations in general, but it's probably a good life lesson in general. But taking 100% responsibility. So, like, when you are in a negotiation and that negotiation doesn't go through for whatever reason, then you are 100% responsible as the person that is sitting in your chair. There is a reason you didn't get to a negotiation to a contract with this person. And that's. That's because you, and you need to take responsibility for that. On the other hand of the. Of the other side of that, is that to take zero percent blame, it's not to blame yourself. It's not to say, hey, you know what, I did something wrong, and therefore I failed. It's how did I. What could I have done differently in the next negotiation to be able to get a little bit closer to an agreement with that person? What could I have done to give better value to this person? But without blaming yourself for not being able to be successful in that particular case? I think that that goes well with, you know, the arrogance conversation, and it goes well with a lot of different things. But it's, it's. It's a part that was really helpful for me to learn at one point because, um, you know, as a salesperson or as a person that's doing negotiations, you're, you're. Generally speaking, you're going to lose 90 to 95% of the time. You're not going to be able to be successful. 99. 90 to 95% of the time. So when you're not successful, that doesn't mean that you're not doing anything wrong. It means it's an opportunity to learn. Right. Take responsibility for it, but not to take blame for it because again, our batting averages are low. Like, we're not going to do well all the time, and, you know, we're going to strike out, but at the same time trying to understand where, you know, where your responsibility lies and what you could have done better in the next one.

Ron, I love this. This is great. And really, one of the things that I really appreciate about this is the fact that it's a very empowering stance because if we just exactly. This person is crazy. They don't understand exactly that we're abdicating responsibility of change to their. To the other side. So whether or not we are successful is completely in their hands. But what you're saying here is that. No, this is about. This is. I can look at this. I can be introspective, but not, like, shame myself for performing poorly. But I can say, listen, I'm going to own my performance. I'm going to look at what I did well. I'm going to try to do more of that. I'm going to look at what I did poorly. I'm going to adjust, and I can take full responsibility for the outcome and still be in a place where I'm psychologically. Well, right. Not beating yourself up, but at the same time, you can still feel proactive. Hey, I can do something to make this situation better.

Yeah, absolutely. That's the perfect way of putting it. It's like we're so eager to blame the other person. Right? We're so eager to say, oh, they, you know, they didn't want to pay what I was offering, or they didn't, you know, they didn't like me or they were rude or they were whatever. But it's. It all comes down to us. But it's not our fault.

Right? This is great. And I think it's a very. It's a fascinating Zen type of approach.

Right.

But. And I think it'll take practice to do it. And I think psychologically it's important for us understand why we do this. We do that with the natural response. The reason we do that is to protect ourselves emotionally.

Right.

Because if it is my fault, then I could potentially feel bad. Let me just blame them. That feels better.

Exactly. The ego is a powerful thing.

And the thing, the way that you get control of it is understanding it, recognizing when it's showing up, and then making the necessary adjustments.

Yeah, and that's a really good point. Yeah. You know, saying recognize now we really, truly are getting Zen, but making recognition rather than. So don't blame yourself for blaming yourself either. Make a recognition. Okay, I was blaming myself there. We can move past this now.

Oh, I like that. Oh, that's good. That is great. Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. And one of the things that we talked about, I think this is a great opportunity to segue to the next one, the biggest mistake that people can make in these interactions. So in your experience, what are the biggest mistakes that you've seen yourself make in the past and you've seen other people make when it comes to these high level negotiations?

Right. So I mean, I think being overeager to sell is probably the overarching, like, biggest mistake that people make. Right. And that can kind of go into a lot of different ways. And as I had said prior, really focusing on value, I think, is the way that you kind of combat that. I think that the other thing that often becomes the case is that when you're too inwardly focused on that negotiation, you're not breeding a healthy relationship with the client, you're not breeding a healthy relationship with the person that's sitting in front of you. And I think that in one way or another, it all just comes back to that. It all just comes back to kind of to wanting more for yourself than you are wanting for the person that's sitting across from you and you put yourself into their shoes. That's when true magic happens. And that's really when the negotiation starts.

Yeah. And you know, the thing is, Ron, it's hard to do, right? It's really hard to do because we say, all right, I'm in the business world. I'm looking at this podcast just so I can close more deals.

Well, who are you holding?

Let's slow it down a little bit, right. I was talking to one of my friends, Chelsea Street. She's at Lytics. It's a great company in San Diego, actually. In your neck of the woods. And so one of the things that I was talking about is when it comes to closing more deals, one of the things we have to do is make sure that we're closing the right deals. That's the first thing. Because sometimes the worst thing that could happen is that you close a deal that should never have been closed. You know, and so when you think about negotiation not as the art of deal making, but as the art of deal discovery, then you can slow down and focus on information gathering and building rapport and building that relationship more so than pressuring somebody because it might not be the right deal.

That brings me to another one liner that I'm not sure if I made up or you made up. But for the sake of this conversation, I'll take credit for it. Once again, I, I like to say that anything can be negotiated with enough creativity. And so if you're asking the right questions, you're always going to be able to get to that. So sometimes that just feels like such a ridiculous thing to say and you're like, you're so far apart from the other person that, you know, I'm telling you it's going to cost you a half a million dollars and you have $100,000 budget. Like, how could I ever find common ground with you on something like that? But if you start to understand from the person what it is like, first for one, why do they only have a budget that's much less than what it is that you have for them? What is truly the scope, what is truly the goals? So the best example that I can give is oftentimes people tell me that they want to add square footage to their house. Their house is 1500 square feet. They want to make it 2000 square feet, which in California is a normal sized house. I know rest of the country where you live, Kwame, that's probably a basement. But in California, 2,000 square, that's a big house. But you know, for instance, they want to go from 1500 square feet to 2000 square feet, right? That's what they want to do in continuing the conversation with them. And when I start to sort of ask more questions and try to understand why their budget is low, but their scope is big, I understand that really there, there isn't really a need to add square footage. Maybe they just. All they need is a bit of a rearrangement of the walls that are inside the house. Then that makes it a little bit more accommodating to the needs that they need. They have, you know, the mother in law is moving in, they need an ensuite for her to live in, whatever it may be. And so again, with enough creativity, with the right questions, I really believe that like anything can be negotiated, so just sticking in it, asking more questions. Another thing that's always important that I learned from one of my sales coaches, Shai Magdish, that's in Los Angeles, is that is to really focus on trying to stay in the negotiation longer. So when you're ready to leave the house or the conversation, ask yourself if you can find another 15 minutes to have that conversation. Because you never know what you're going to discover in that next phase or chapter in the conversation. The other thing that I wanted to. The other thing that I wanted to stick in here, before I forget is another big mistake that I see from people is underestimating the power of the follow up. And the follow up is such an important piece to a sales negotiation. I always tell the people in my company I would not be a good salesperson if it wasn't for follow ups. I am not that great of a salesperson in conversation with somebody one on one. What I'm good at is I'm good at providing value and showing people those things. And then I'm good at following up with people and just sort of staying in the conversation and just seeing when I can continue to have that second or third or fourth conversation. I think a lot of people, they leave a negotiation, they say, ah, that didn't work out and that's the end of it. And then six months down the line, a lot of times people just, you know, in conversation, following up with someone, calling them, emailing them, whatever, all of a sudden they're now open to the conversation because new information was presented to them, more money came in, whatever it may be. And then all of a sudden there's a new opportunity for to come to common grounds with the person that you're talking to. So that's another really big one that I don't want to understate. And I sort of covered over my last point because it was so important that I had to come back to it.

Ron, this is great. And I mean, quick synopsis here. It's curiosity and resilience. That's really it, right? So we need to stay in that mode of curiosity, constantly asking questions, figuring out what people want. And so in traditional negotiation parlance, we would talk about interest versus positions. A position is what somebody says they want. An interest is why they want it. And with those questions that you're asking is you're figuring out why they want it. I want more square feet.

Why?

Okay. My mother in law is going to move in. Okay, well, maybe we could figure out another solution. It might not be square feet. And so that gives you more options. And the thing I always say is that with creativity you're creating more options. And the more paths to victory you have, the more likely you are to achieve a victory. And then this segues really nicely into your second point where you're talking about the fact that sometimes we just quit too soon. It's so simple, it's true. I remember I started off the year last year reading the book by David Goggins and one of the things he says is we need to earn the right to call something impossible. We say it's impossible too early and that's what we have to do with our negotiations. Just stay in the game, stay curious and good things can happen.

I love that. I love that 100%. And that could be in the middle of the negotiation, that could be, you know, six months after the negotiation. And just, I cannot understate that. You know, I just have a process like I flag my emails, you know, if I have a conversation going with a client, I flag my emails. If it didn't go, I have, I run back through my calendar and go back like one month, two months. I've gone back as far as two years before in a conversation that I haven't heard back from, somebody emailed them again and then opened up another conversation and had another conversation. I don't know if I've ever sold a new project from checking in with someone two years later. But I've certainly opened up a new conversation after two years. So I can't understate that enough, that is. Or overstate that enough. That's a really important thing to think about when you're working on that. And again, probably applies to all sales negotiations, not just construction.

Absolutely. I was talking to One of our bigger clients, a Fortune 500 company, and they're talking about multimillion dollar deals, like hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yeah.

And they said with one of our clients, actually, it's one of our best clients or one of our biggest clients. We were courting that client for 12 years. 12 years. And now it's one of their biggest clients. But they were building and nurturing the relationship for 12 years. Now, Ron, I will be honest. I don't know if I have that in me. But it goes to show, if you stay in the game, good things can happen. And the thing is, we don't. We want to do this with. With class. We want to do it in a way that is respectful. Right. And again, I think when you think about negotiation or especially sales as the art of helping somebody to make a decision, we're not bullying or pushing people or being annoying in that sense, but we can just ping them every six months, Just check in, see how they're doing, be a good friend, check in, and if there's something there, it'll happen. If not, then it's okay. But again, just the simple act of keeping the conversation going, it puts you in a position where you can still make something happen into the future.

Yeah, and that's, that's another really good point for, like, the creativity piece, where, you know, I think that, that, you know, enough creativity gets you there. Where like, like you're saying it's like, nobody wants that autobot response of like, hey, have you made a decision? Hey, have you made a decision? Hey, have you made a decision? That. That doesn't do you any good. But presenting new information, checking in on things, reading back on the email chain and seeing, you know, what else could have come up, maybe there was a family event that had occurred. You check in on those things. Maybe you were. They were waiting for the architect to come through. So you look back at the email chain and ask them specifically about that. That shows, for one, that you are not just an autoresponder. That, two, that you do really recall the conversation, that you do have notes that you did take the time to take those notes and to sort of like, think back on what the conversation was about. And yeah, with enough creativity you can think of, there's. There's new ways to present information and be able to check in with them. I also always tell people, even when they, if they move forward with a different general contractor than them with us, if they say hired somebody else, they said, hey, your competition was, you know, 10% cheaper. We went with them, I always, always tell them, feel free to contact us anytime we have jobs in the area. And if you guys need a second opinion on something, because as much as I would love to say that construction always goes perfectly smoothly, we all know that it doesn't. That if there are things that come up and you can do need a second opinion, feel free to call us. I will be happy to have that conversation with you and try and help out in every way. And less people have taken me up on that than I thought would. But the few people that have, like, I've really, you know, we helped them out, gave them converse, you know, gave them tips to discuss with the contractor. I never throw anybody under the bus. Obviously that doesn't do anybody any good, but it for one gives them the opportunity to see that first of all, we're truly there. We're truly there to help. And you know, we like what we do. And additionally, you know, you never know, maybe that will at some point turn into a referral to a different client or whatever it may be. But that's another place in which you can add value and really doesn't take any of your time. You know what I mean? How hard is it to answer a few emails here and there? So to keep that conversation going is important and find creative ways in order to be able to give good responses.

I love it. Well, great. Well, let's wrap this up with the third point, which is building rapport in stressful situations. We all talk about building rapport, right? I mean, that's something that's pretty standard right now. But here's the thing. Well, we're in the middle of a pandemic that's pretty stressful. And then when you're in a situation where the person on the other side is going through one of the most important negotiations of their lives, that's a high stress situation for them. So how have you been able to build rapport despite those potential barriers?

So I think there's a lot of things there. I mean, for one, just sort of having a little bit of empathy, right? Sort of understanding where they're coming from and sort of not trying to impose your own intentions on the person that's sitting across from you and sort of, I think again comes back to asking really good questions and trying to understand what really their resistances are. And I think that that especially in that particular moment where somebody is like close to making some sort of decision, but they' they're really starting to feel that anxiousness of like, wow, I'm actually Doing this, I'm actually pulling the trigger. I'm actually putting money down. When you ask the good questions and when you ask the right questions, you really start to understand where those anxieties are coming from. I think that also just there's some, like, very basic kind of general things for doing rapport with people and just sort of like matching them where they are. If they're like, you know, if. If they're very anxious and you're very like, calm and serene, that may be unsettling for that person. So sort of like just kind of like matching their energy and where they're at, that's a little bit more pragmatic. But I think that generally speaking, especially in that situation, just. Just really having some empathy and trying to understand where they're coming from, because they are. You're just kind of doing your job and they're sitting there making their biggest decision of their lives, possibly, or one of them. And, you know, just having an understanding about that and trying to really understand where they're coming from is going to be really important in that. Especially in that sort of like, closed situation when you're in the last, you know, the last, like 10% of that conversation. It's really important right there.

Absolutely. And I like what you said about the energy matching energy, because we've talked about empathy a lot on the show, but we haven't addressed that concept of mirroring. And so mirroring, not in terms of the negotiation style mirroring that Chris Voss talks about mirroring in the classic just sales building, rapport type of thing, where we're matching body language, we're matching energy and everything like that. Now, for you, you gave the example of if somebody is really kind of anxious about this and you're too chill, it might not show the requisite amount of respect for them in that situation. This guy doesn't even care. Right. And then on the other side, what do you do if that potentially negative energy that they're providing is more on the. It's more outward focus, like they might be angry or upset or anything like that. How do you match the energy without perpetuating the negativity?

That's a really, really good question. I've dealt with this. I've dealt with this several times before and actually will reference Chris Voss. Interesting enough that you say that for those of you who don't know, Chris Voss is a fam. He's got a masterclass, and he was a famous hostage negotiator for years and years, and he does some training as far as he's got a group called the Black Swan Group, and he does some master classes and things along those lines. But he uses a really interesting. He says something interesting that he says to use the fm, the late night FM DJ voice. Am I saying that correctly? Okay, so. And it's just sort of about like kind of taking a step back and sort of like using, you know, kind of, I guess, chilling yourself out a little bit and sort of bringing your voice level down and sort of being as common as possible. I think the other important piece to that would be to say to go back to a sense of professionalism in that particular situation is to kind of go back to becoming the professional in that conversation. I, in that point would not be mirroring them or I would not be sort of like, like, I guess indulging or sort of encouraging that kind of conversation or behavior. Yes, it does happen. People get upset. You know, you give them a price that's way outside of their price range and then just kind of going back to talking about the basics and just sort of going back to your own professional opinion about what it is that you're talking about in this conversation. So they may not be excited about something that is that you just said, maybe it's the price, maybe it's the permitting process, maybe it's how long the project is going to take or whatever. But going back to being the professional and just sort of touching on the points of why those things are the case will give that person a little bit more clarity and sort of, and I guess reality check them a little bit to sort of. To understand that that's kind of the way things are. And that's just the way, you know, that's just the truth of the matter. And there's not much that you can do about it as the person that's presenting the information to them.

Yeah, and I like the focus that you had there on just this is the truth. What I'm trying to do is convey to you the reality of the situation. And what's great about it is that you're able to separate the reality of the situation and the fact that you're conveying it from you. And so what I mean by that is that they're not saying Ron is a D. They're saying, okay, I understand Ron's telling me this message. It is not Ron himself doing this to me out of spite.

Exactly.

You know, and so you can still maintain a strong sense of rapport while with. While still delivering the message in a way that is clear and transparent.

That's. I. Yeah, you said that much better than I did. I appreciate that. If time allows and if you're okay with it, I would like to also. This is a good segue into. I've put up a couple of points of things that I think that I don't hear enough from my clients or from my potential clients that I would like to share. So sort of the other side of the negotiation, if you don't mind, Kwame, I can talk about those things.

Yeah, that'll be great.

So especially in this kind of, like, last portion of a discussion of sales negotiation within construction, there's a lot of times these things that I feel like would. Would be helpful for a client to say that I don't necessarily hear enough from them. So I'm going to share a couple of those questions. There's one question that a client once asked me that I thought was a really good question. Was they asked, is there anything I should be asking that I am not asking? And I can't even tell you that that question got us to any place further in the conversation. But it just shifted my form of thinking a little bit, where instead of me being the one asking questions and expecting a response, all of a sudden, I was forced to change the way I'm supposed to think or frame this conversation that we are having every single day. And think. Huh? That's a really good question. And gave me a chance to sort of think a little bit outside of the box, which I think is always important. Anything to say about that one?

I love that question. I really do. Because it forces empathy. Really?

Yeah.

That's what happens. Right? And I've resorted to that one. I shouldn't say resort. It shouldn't be a resort. I honestly, I should use it more often because it's a very powerful question.

Yeah.

Because I, you know, I like asking a lot of questions, and sometimes I get to the point where I say, you know what? I prepared. I downloaded those free negotiation guides. So remember. Listen, I almost forgot, Ron. I almost forgot to shout them out.

Right.

Americannegotiationinstitute.com guide. You can get access to all of our free negotiation guides, and there's a link to that in the description below. And one of the things that you'll see in those guides is that there's a space to write in the questions that you want to ask. Sometimes the conversation is going really well, and I feel as though I've covered everything that I wanted to ask, but I still feel as though there's something else and so I'll just ask that question. What should I be asking that I'm not asking? And I've gotten some really interesting responses too. It's a great way to keep the conversation going.

Yeah, absolutely. I've got two more on here that I'll share. The other one that is that this is kind of an interesting one just because of the way it's phrased, what costs are not included, we will have to pay along the way. Now that's a different question than what isn't included in your quote. Because to me it may be very, very obvious that the cost to permit your project with the city is not included in my scope. Right. That money does not go to me, it goes to the city. But that's because I do this all day long.

Right.

Where? To somebody else that may not be as obvious? So the way that's phrased, what costs are not included, I will have to pay along the way is something that people I've been asked before, which made me realize that the question isn't what aren't I including into my own bid, which sounds like something that I'm trying to do to be manipulative or sneaky. The question is what? What else are they going to have to pay for construction between today until the very last day of the project? So, you know, appliances may not be included, because I don't sell appliances. Your kitchen cabinets may not be included. Your countertops may not be included. Your permitting fees may not be included. The civil engineer may not be included. And that gives a chance for you to kind of talk about these things right now rather than talking about them six months into construction, where it becomes a fight and a blow up or an issue where right now you're managing expectations ahead of time and getting a chance to sort of discuss what those things are.

I love that one. That's great. That's great. And managing expectations is one of the best things you can do in any relationship, business or personal. So that's a fantastic part of it. And then the other thing too is the way that they phrased it. They're not blaming you or making it seem as though you're doing something sneaky. Because if they phrase that the wrong way, it could invite a defensive response. Phrasing was really, really great.

Yeah, yeah. And lastly, the other thing, the last thing that I think is a really good question to ask, or I guess more of a general note, is to just really transparently try and express your concerns or hesitations to move forward. I think it's also really important to. If you're talking to a general contractor and you're serious, like truly serious about moving forward with them, to let them know. Because, like, we do this all day long, and like I said, 90% of the time, we, we get no's. Right? So it's very easy to fall into this pattern of like, oh, okay, like, they're not gonna, you know, they're just wasting my time. They're not really serious. They're not gonna move forward. But really, I perform my best and I sort of give the most, the most professionalism and the best customer service when I know somebody's actually interested, you know, when I actually feel like there's potential there. And so if you are, regardless if you're interested or not, or, you know, you're serious or you think you're serious or you're not serious about this particular person, to fully express your hesitations and your concern, like, if you don't want to move forward with somebody, tell them, tell them why that is, that you're not interested in doing so. Because so many times I have found that, like, you know, a client has once told me, you know, oh, you know, I don't, I don't want to move forward because I don't have the cash. And, you know, that opened up a conversation of, well, you're aware that construction financing exists, right? And they were just completely unaware that that was even a thing. So that, you know, I gave, put them in touch, gave them resources. I've had another client, you know, all of a sudden tell me, well, you know, I'm hesitant to do that because, you know, we also have this other project that we want to do, and we want to keep enough money for that in the budget. And I asked them, okay, well, so what was, what's that project? What do you got? What you want to do? Well, they, you know, we want to replace the tile in the foyer. Okay, well, that's like, you know, 100 square feet of tile. You know, it's. It's, you know, maybe going to cost me $2,000. I'll split it with you 50. 50. And they were like so excited, it was like a fantasy for them that they couldn't believe that I was actually going to willing to do that. And that was just something that was able just because we had a little bit more of a conversation. And they were honest and transparent about what their concerns and hesitations about moving forward were. We were able to find some sort of solution to what that was together. So if you are hesitant, but you do think that you want to move forward. Just try and be honest with yourself and with your contractor about what it is and why it is that you are hesitant. And you may find yourself very pleasantly surprised as to what, how simple those solutions might be.

Yeah. Oh man, this is good because again, sometimes people get intimidated or scared of the process and they feel almost obligated to hold some things close to the, to their vest. Right. I'm not going to share this information. Maybe it's embarrassing, maybe ego won't let me admit that, I don't know. But I think one of the most important things that can help us to be more effective is humility and transparency. Because, I mean, there are a lot of times when I hate to admit, hey, I'm not really quite sure. But the thing is it leads to a greater level of trust and it allows the other person to share information to help you to make a better decision as well. So I think that that's a major thing. You know, do your research beforehand, go into the conversation and understand what it is that you can share and what you probably shouldn't share. You should be very clear on that before the conversation begins. But as long as it's in that realm of something that you can share, just share it, you know, and I think there's nothing too damaging that could occur as long as you're sharing in the right way.

Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. That's 100% right. You know, people, people can sort of find themselves embarrassed or they can sort of think things are like something is a stupid question or a silly question, it so often is not. Or, you know, even if it's simple, it's probably something that we've heard a hundred times before. So, you know, definitely share those things. You know, I can't even tell you how many times, you know, somebody, something that seemed probably very stressful to the person, you know, to the homeowner, the client, they ended up being like a really, like a non issue. And so just having that transparency and sharing what your concerns are, you know, may get you much further in the conversation than you would have thought.

That's great. Well, this has been fantastic, Ron. I really appreciate you coming, appreciate you coming out here and sharing your knowledge. And so. But before you go, let the listeners know how they can get in touch with you and again, tell them about your business out in Cali.

Thank you. Yeah. First of all, I'd like to say it's an honor to be on the show. I've been listening to the show from, since, since I started doing construction, which I thought had been like, you know, must have been right when you started. But I thought it had been years and years into this, into your podcast. So thanks for letting me on and thanks for talking to me again. If you guys want to look us up, we are Baron Construction, B A R O N Construction. We have offices in California, in the barrier Silicon Valley area and in Los Angeles. You can find us online. Barron Construction, B A R O N. Again, you can find me ronaroncnr.com you can also find my personal Instagram on Ronnie Rock on Instagram. It's not construction related mostly, but give you some good laughs and good smiles. Other than that, that's it for me.

Fantastic. Ron, thank you again, my friend. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Kwame, it's been a pleasure.

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