Cracking the Code of Difficult Conversations with Mediator Winter Wheeler

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute here at A&I we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Winter, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, hey, thank you for having me.

It is my pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Well, yeah, I'm a mediator and arbitrator, so I am a professional peacekeeper and I live in Atlanta, Georgia, and I work with my specialty, difficult personalities. So that's. People always ask me, what kind of mediations do you do? Anything and everything. I work really well with emotional people, angry people, crying people. I don't know why, but it seems to be my superpower.

Okay, so we're going to dig into this first. Okay, so how would you define a difficult personality?

Just someone who's not readily willing to negotiate or is negotiating from their heart and not their head. Negotiating from a place of hurt instead of focusing on the business aspect, making a smart decision and not necessarily trying to punish their opponent.

Now, as everybody in the audience slowly gets flashbacks, can you give an example of somebody who kind of fits that build? No names, of course, but give us, paint us a picture of the type of person you typically deal with.

Oh, my. I could go on and on. I will often have folks who are just very dug in, in their own opinion, who, no matter what you say to them, will just repeat back what they've already said to you. It's hard to break them from that. You know, they're not really listening. They are angry and personally offended about everything that happens with the other. The other parties to the point where it doesn't make a whole lot of sense and that I will spend a lot of time, kind of digging into perhaps why they're like that, how they got that way. I'll give you one quick example. I had a man who just was mad. He's just mad. So I generally have a pretty relaxed kind of calming presence. So people are not typically just angry around me. But he was. He was just furious. You know, it's 10 o' clock in the morning, honey. What, what happened? What, are you mad already? And so, you know, realizing that about him, we just were trying to have a conversation, just trying to chat him up a bit, kind of ease him into the day. So I asked him about what he did over the weekend, and he told me he got his final divorce decree in the mail. Well, there we go. I see why you're unhappy today, sir. So those are the kinds of things that I will deal with. So people who typically are upset about something, and it's being manifested in a strange way in their negotiation. Now, sometimes they're legitimately upset about what's happened in the lawsuit, of course, but often they are not. And I deal really well with that.

This is perfect. I love this response because I think we can all identify and relate with this type of situation because we've all had situations where somebody is emotional and they might seem irrational and things like that. And I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about this question. It was my favorite question yesterday. I was doing a keynote in Corvallis, Oregon, a city I did not know existed until I arrived.

It's new to me.

Apparently that's where Oregon State is. So now it makes sense. But somebody said, what do you do with somebody who is irrational in a negotiation? And so how would you answer that question?

I let them talk. I just let them talk because eventually they will get to the point where they're giving you some real information. You know, people who are not rational are not rational. So they may be talking about all kinds of random things or simply repeating themselves. But given enough time, people will fill the empty space and you'll finally get some information. So that's typically what I do, just encourage them to talk. So I tell people when we start the day, I'm never, ever going to interrupt you. Today is about you. So I need to know what you're thinking, how you're feeling, how things are going for you in the moment. You just let me know whatever you want to talk about. If you want to talk about handbags, we can talk about handbags for a while. You pay me by the hour. So maybe you don't want to do that, but we could if you want, and then we just kind of get going. Focusing on how they feel and less about what they say is super helpful as well. Because at the end of the day, with the kinds of cases that I work on, the law is the law. We're going to apply the facts to the law and we're going to get the same answer 8 out of 10 times. It just is what it is. It's a matter of walking someone from A to Z. Right. So however we get there doesn't necessarily matter. We can be very creative in the middle. We got to get them there.

I love this response. Yeah, I'm the exact same way. And I laughed when I got that question because I said, I mean, you are lucky if you're dealing with anybody rational in these difficult conversations. I don't expect rationality in these conversations, but I'm glad when I get it. And you're absolutely right. Letting them talk and eventually something relevant will come up. And in order to do that, it seems like you tell me what you think about this. Number one, it takes a lot of patience because it will take sometimes a lot of time to get to that relevant detail. And then number two, it takes a lot of faith in your own skillset because this isn't something that was specifically planned. We didn't say, well, they'll say this irrational thing which would lead to this thought that is completely irrelevant. We didn't see that coming. But you have to have faith in your skillset to say whatever it is that they say. I know that I have the skills to navigate the conversation effectively. And so let's address the mindset first. A lot of times people are really busy and they can feel that pressure, that time pressure in those conversations. What would you say to somebody who's a busy professional and they're dealing with somebody who is irrational? They know that the best strategy is to let them talk and listen, but they don't know how to do that and still respect their own time.

Oh, I used to be like that. I used to be one of those people before I was a mediator. So I completely get that. And it is, it's hard, you know, especially if you are a working litigator and you know, you're thinking about your time in six minute increments. I mean, I'd be sitting with my husband, like watching the clock, like, sir, this was a point one, get to the point. I think you have to keep in mind that the better the other person feels, the better the result. So it's worth putting in the time when it is necessary on the front end, trying to rush somebody, trying to push them along, it really doesn't help. It's more of a hindrance for you at the end. And so if you can just stop, give them some space, you will help yourself immensely on the back end. And I see that all the time with, with folks. You know, lawyers would want to rush their. Their clients, who's the actual party, right. To the litigation. And I'll pull them aside and say, that's not helping for whatever reason. They just need more time to process it. Just let it happen, let it flow. It'll work.

Yeah, I agree. And it's like Newton's law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. And sometimes the harder we push, the more they resist. And thinking of it in terms of an investment helps us to say, all right, I am going to invest this time now in this conversation because I know that I'll get this time back because they'll be in a better mindset and be better able to process this conversation, too.

Absolutely. And I believe. Well, I'll say, don't quote me, but here we go. Well, I believe it was Maya Angelou who said that people will not remember necessarily what you said, but more of how you made them feel. And so if you can make someone feel good, no matter what has happened in the conversation, you will get better results out of them afterward because they're feeling positively about you and themselves.

Agreed. And now let me challenge you by channeling somebody in my audience. I can hear somebody driving in their car. Their brow is furrowed. They don't like what they're hearing. They're like, but I am busy. These are facts. Like you said, this is about the law. It's about reality. It's about facts. I don't have time to waste just playing with people's feelings. They should get on the same page. And so what would you say to that person?

That listening to someone's feelings is not a waste of time, period. That is just something you're going to have to learn and accept. There's no way around it. The more you push someone who is not emotionally ready to move on or make a decision, the more dug in they get, the worse it becomes for you. It's just like we were talking about, like, you have to stop. You don't have time to not stop.

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I was just thinking, as you were saying, you and I both have studied ADR alternative dispute resolution. We know these processes and everything. Now that I think about it, there's no negotiation methodology that's like this guarantees quick deals and you don't need to listen to anybody and you could just bully through the conversation. It doesn't exist.

Anybody who says that exists is lying.

Exactly, exactly. No, I'm with you. And I think it's so important. And listeners, I want you to recognize this important point here right now. Thus far, we've talked about more so process and mindset, the mentality that you take into these conversations. And a lot of times we focus so much on tactics and strategies that we miss this human element and forget the power of simply listening and empathizing and taking the time to show that respect to somebody again, just setting that stage is really the foundation for persuasion.

Amen. I love that. I love the way you said that.

Thank you. Thank you. I was reading. I have cue cards. You don't. People can't see it.

Well, I'm convinced. And it was fabs.

Thank you. Well, let's talk about your methodology, which is really exciting. The four cornerstones of mediation. Can you tell us about that?

Yes, yes. So the four cornerstones are emotional intelligence, cultural knowledge, cultural immersion, and genuine empathy. So I came up with these as a pretty new mediator. So I was very gratefully. I should, like, I don't know, pat myself on the back, something. But I was very busy to start and, you know, I did. I had that kind of impatient mindset, you know, kind of still in the back of my. In the back of my mind. But I realized pretty quickly that that wasn't going to work. These were the things that I needed to be focused on. And when I did focus on all four of those things, it was a game changer. It was a game changer. I started seeing a lot of breakthroughs in folks that I might not otherwise have seen. So when you Talk about really dealing with that human element. That's what this is about.

Oh, I am intrigued. Where do I start? Let's start off with. Let's just go straight through the four. So emotional intelligence.

So emotional intelligence, we hear about it pretty commonly these days, but I think a lot of people don't really understand what it is. So it's about how you see yourself and whether you understand how you and your actions implicate the world and have an effect on the people around you. So do you understand how you feel? Are you using your emotions to properly guide you through the world? And do you understand how what you're doing impacts other people?

I think it's pretty safe to say that people don't understand that.

No.

This is great.

When you talk about long haul learning, that's what this is.

Yes. Oh, this is, this is very interesting. And so the first part sounds like self awareness, understanding yourself. And that incorporates emotion management, but just also emotional awareness, just knowing where you are, your own emotional temperature. And now this last one. The effect of your words and actions on others. I think if we think about it in a surface level, people would say, why is that hard for people to get? But what is it that makes it difficult for us to fully appreciate the effects of our words and actions on others?

Because we can only see the world through our own personal lens. You know, I am Winter. I'm a black woman of a certain age. I got four kids and that's how I see everything for the most part. So if I'm not at work, I don't have my mediator hat on. I'm just kind of walking through life as me. I'm not necessarily thinking about how the car next to me doesn't like that I cut them off. Like I'm not worried about it, right. So it takes some effort. You have to put in some extra effort. And it can be, it can be exhausting to really step outside yourself and focus on how other people might be feeling. And it becomes exceptionally difficult because so few people actually do it. Right. So I'm constantly having to kind of gauge everyone around me and behave accordingly.

This is so good. And you hit the nail on the head. It just takes effort. And a lot of times we're so busy, we have so many things in our head that we just don't take the time to think. I wonder how this impacted somebody else. And I think, tell me what you think about this. If we take confirmation bias and self serving bias, we don't want to think that we're Having a negative impact on other people. So we don't even consider. Consider that.

Oh, for sure. We all want to believe that we are great people, we are good people, we are kind people, really, at the end of the day, we may not be, but we do the best we can. At least I think that's how I look at it. I make the best decisions I can with the information that I have. And ultimately, of course, you have. You have to keep your best interest at heart. And so sometimes that's not good for other people, but you have to know that it's not good for other people.

No, that is great. And let's move on to the next one, Cultural knowledge. Tell us about that one.

So that is pretty straightforward. So cultural knowledge is. I mean, pick up a book and learn about the people around you. So I live in Atlanta. We have folks from all over the world here. But I don't know, I guess, right, wrong or otherwise, folks like to congregate right into their little groups and they'll live in certain pockets of town. But as a mediator and needing to be neutral and have, you know, have everyone come to the table on equal footing with me, I need to know a little bit about everybody. So like I said before, my. My personal lens is black woman. So if someone is not that, I still need to be able to understand them and to help them. So I see a lot of folks who are Vietnamese, for example. So what do I do? I will pick up a book and learn more about culture and history, just to get a baseline. You know, you don't want to do something as simple as, you know, shaking someone's hand when in their culture. That's rude. Well, you've screwed it up already.

Yes, and you're so right. I remember one of the. Because I mediated for a while. And I remember one time I was. I reached out to shake a woman's hand, and she didn't reach back out. And in her. The brand of Islam that she practiced, that it was not appropriate for me to try to shake her hand. And so thankfully, there was an interpreter there who explained that to me. But, you know, I just went in with my cultural lens on, and I didn't even. I didn't stop and think. And I think a lot of times when it comes to cultural intelligence, it really just comes down to simply knowing when to pause and ask yourself what is the best thing to do in this situation. Otherwise, we just flow through on autopilot. Kwame American, Caribbean American, we all shake hands. Boom, right there. That's how I show respect. And it's like coming in as a cultural attack.

I guess I just got lucky that you related to that example.

Yeah, yeah, it was good. It was good. I think about that one all the time because we're doing. There's a cultural intelligence module in our course in negotiable. And I was thinking about some of those experiences that I had. And again, this is going to happen. And reading books, that's a great option. Thinking about watching movies, that's another good option. Just think of. Imagine going to a Vietnamese restaurant, like an authentic Vietnamese restaurant. Right. And those type of things are great ways to experience different cultures and learn. Right.

And I use that example a lot to go to the restaurant and sit and be quiet. Don't go in like, you know, forcing folks to try to talk to you. Right. Go in and watch. Learn a lot just by watching.

Absolutely. And I'm assuming. But I want to ask, is that what you mean by cultural immersion, which is the third pillar?

It sure is. There's a gold star with your name on it.

I love it. I love it. So tell us more about that.

Well, yeah, so that's really important. That's when you put your knowledge into action, and that's how you remember it and make it part of who you are. So when I was in college, I did a year abroad in Madrid, so that was as immersive as it could have been. I went to a Spanish university. I lived with a Spanish family. I did all the things. And so I learned more than I ever could have picked up from a book, you know, and so that, for me was key. It was totally clutch. Can I say totally clutch on your.

Absolutely, absolutely. I endorsed totally clutch. And I love that example, too, because the interesting thing is that the Spanish culture in Madrid is different from Latin American culture as well, because I studied in Ecuador, and the person that I went with, he actually lived in Spain for years. And he was talking about how challenging it was culturally to make that shift to living in Latin America versus living in Spain. And it's just interesting to see, as you get deeper into these cultures, you start to be. To see, like, the differences intraculturally as well. Because from the outside looking in, you might just say Spanish very different.

Yeah, it is very, very true. You know, I'm from Miami, so, you know, I'm very familiar with folks from all over Latin America. Very different from Spaniards. Very different.

Definitely.

I love that.

And then now I think this is so interesting because you didn't just say empathy, you added a Modifier. And you said genuine empathy. So what does. What does that modifier do?

Well, I think a lot of people will pretend that they care or they'll sit and kind of nod at you. Yeah, I got it. I'm listening. People can pick up on whether or not that's real. If you are full of it, people will know. They will absolutely know. They may not be able to singularly pinpoint it or what it was, but they'll have a weird feeling about it. And it doesn't work. It doesn't penetrate. Now, back in the day, you know, three years ago that I created this, back in the day, when I originally created it, I did think that empathy was something that you just had or you didn't have. I think to a certain extent, that is true. I think if you work on it, if you are intentional in it, you can become more empathetic. I am an empath, so I think that's where that. That's my own lens. You see how that works? It's everywhere. So being an empath, it is very easy for me to show genuine empathy. And so I can also very easily pick up when other people are not genuine. And I see that in other folks where they're not an empath, but they're intuitive. We're all intuitive no matter what. So actually caring about someone and how they feel is pretty important.

I agree. I love this. And now, again, let's. Let's speak to the skeptics in the crowd or the people who simply don't identify as an empath. So let's say somebody says, listen, I have never in my life felt empathetic. I never.

They're out there.

That is just not me. But I. I do want to be more effective, and I recognize that empathy is a skill. If I don't feel empathetic, how can I still generate genuine empathy?

Well, there's a certain amount of willingness to listen and understand that other people and feel differently. You don't have to feel it, understand it, experience it, to know other people can have a different experience from you. I think we are missing that in most of American society, where people don't care about things unless it directly affects them. And so we need to spread empathy all over the land.

I agree. I agree. And I think this is such a powerful point. You said, understand that other people can feel differently, and that's okay. Right. We don't have a monopoly on the correct feelings to experience in this moment. Right, right. And I think that's so important because, again, somebody might say well, I'm not feeling empathetic, so I can't. I don't have it today. But as long as you respect the other person enough to recognize and acknowledge, hey, you might feel differently. And in order for us to be successful in this conversation, I need to take the time to understand that I don't need to, like, emotionally feel touchy feely. Oh, my gosh, Winter, I hope you're okay. It's not something like that. It could just be simply enough, like, I see we're in this situation, we're in this conversation together, and the only way that we can be successful is if we take the time to understand. So tell me about what you're experiencing, and then you can say a whole bunch of touchy feely things that I cannot. I cannot identify with. But as long as I take the time to listen and show that I understand and be patient enough to genuinely demonstrate that understanding to the other side, like, that alone goes a really long way, 1,000%.

You know, just last week, I had a situation where we'd been going for, like, seven hours in this mediation. We were getting nowhere, but nobody wanted to give up, so we at least had that going for us. And eventually I said to one of the parties, is there a universe in your mind that you can imagine where someone may not agree with you? Is that possible? Can you understand that that is a reality? The answer was no. They literally responded, no, there's no way someone could disagree with me. I said, well, I have to be honest with you, because I think we're at that point, I disagree with you. I personally disagree with you. Now, as your mediator, I'm going to let you know, again, the folks in that room disagree with you, too. So if we went before a jury, you could have people who agree and disagree. They're not all going to agree with you. That will never happen in the history of anything. That 12 random folks from whatever part of the country are all going to agree with one thing wholeheartedly. It's just not going to happen. So it was very, very strange how that went down. But once we, you know, I got them to admit that they really just could not fathom that someone could disagree with them. Like, it just seems so irrational and crazy. I was able to back them up and tell them, you know, logically, like, I understand you, I hear what you're saying. You really believe this to be true, but not everyone does. And so whether you think that it's okay or not, this is where we are. So in order to eliminate Some risk. Let's go ahead and concede on a few points just to get past the hurdle. And it worked. We got it settled.

That's so interesting.

I say we. I'm taking the credit, though, so I'm just gonna say me. I got it. I did it. Good.

Take that.

Win.

I love that. And I think, listeners, we have to understand the nuance of this, because this was exceptional. Because think about this. Sometimes people can agree to disagree. And in this situation, this person wasn't even agreeing to disagree. Right. Which is a pretty wild circumstance. And so even though the person could not fathom that other people saw the world differently, they could, or let me. Let me rephrase that. They couldn't fathom how somebody could see the world differently, but they could understand the reality that other people saw the world differently. And just that little nuance was enough to move things forward. Because a lot of times we get stuck on these points where we feel like common ground means that I need you to agree with me on this point and we get needlessly stuck. And then we need to recognize that instead of thinking about it in terms of common ground, if we start thinking about it in terms of common understanding, I understand what you think and what you believe and how you got there. I might disagree, but I can understand that. And then we take the time you reciprocate by saying, okay, now I can understand what you believe and how you got there. I disagree. We can now move beyond that point and figure out what the agreement looks like going forward. That's so powerful.

Nail on the head right there. Yeah, for sure.

I love it. Listen, let's end with some positive momentum. I'm about to shift into parenting mode, so I need to take my wins when I can get it because you're.

About to get beat up.

I know, I know. Winter, I really appreciate you spending time with us today. Before you go, can you remind the listeners about your practice and how they can get in touch with you?

Look me up anywhere. Thankfully, I have this very unusual name. I shouldn't say unusual. I should just say gorgeous name. Easiest way to find me is winterwheeler.com and you find me on LinkedIn and pretty active there. I'm the only Winter Wheeler. Thank you.

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