Creative Decision Making: Unlocking Negotiation Skills for Better Outcomes with Stephanie Hanna

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide, and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Stephanie, welcome back to the show.

Hey, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it is our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So I have been a lawyer for the last 15 years. I've spent most of that time in the courthouse doing negotiations, mediations, trying to get cases to resolve. This year, I'm also a candidate for judge in Franklin County, Ohio, running for an open seat in our general division court. I'm a mom. I feel like negotiation and decision making comes in play often there as well. And a wife which comes in there as well.

Definitely. Oh, this is exciting. Well, congratulations. I know this is an exciting time. So for those listeners who are out in Franklin county in Ohio, we're now, you know, Stephanie, Hannah, make sure that that is your decision. And speaking of decisions, that's what today is all about. We're talking about negotiation as a decision making tool. And that's why I wanted to bring you in, because being a judge is all about effective decision making. And so when you think about decision making in general, what's your general approach to how to make good decisions?

Yeah, I think as I have gotten older and wiser and had better more and more conversations and difficult conversations, I think my overall approach is slowing down and trying to gather as much information as possible. I also do think there's a fine line between overkill in that department. Right. You can drag your heels and gather information to the point where you're just going in circles and not actually making the decision. So, you know, I definitely am in favor of actual decision making, but I do think it's important to pause, gather information, have conversations, and get what you feel is appropriate, and then spend some time to actually make a decision that you feel comfortable with.

I agree 100%. At the end of the day, negotiation is an information game. So the more high quality information you have, the better off you're going to be. But also recognizing that overkill is an option here too, because I think a lot of times we can just in general, let's set a negotiation aside. We can get into this information gathering stage and it's really just a sneaky way of fear holding us back. Cause we just keep on saying, I need more info, more info, more info. And then we push back the decision making process. So we don't ultimately make a decision.

Yes, absolutely. So you have to be careful that you don't rely on it as a crutch too much. But short of that, I do think it's an effective tool.

Absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know what's funny? We're getting very meta very quickly because we always talk about negotiation with the other person, but we're recognizing more and more one of the most important negotiations we have to have is with ourselves. Because we have to understand what it would take for us to make an effective decision in this moment. Because what it takes to make an effective decision in one context may be different from another context. We might be confident in one context, but we might have fear, but hidden fear hidden to other people and to ourselves in another one. So it seems like we have to negotiate with ourselves, to dig deeply beneath the surface to understand what might make it difficult to make a good decision in this context too.

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny in the work setting when I'm at the courthouse and I've also served as a magistrate, so in these various courthouse settings where I am essentially, you know, making decisions or advising the judge on a decision I think he should make for people that don't have anything to do with me. Right. It's very easy to be pretty cerebral and like, okay, here's the law, here's What I think we should do here are the reasons it's laid out when you are making decisions for yourself. You know, I'm pretty sure I just spent collectively eight hours last week researching summer camps for my kids. And it shouldn't be that difficult, right? It shouldn't be that tough. But yeah, you do have to kind of get in your own head and kind of find a path out, so to speak, so that you can say, hey, I make decisions all day long for other people, and this is kind of the format and the protocol that I follow. So when I start getting too in my head and feeling like I'm going around on a hamster wheel, what can I implement from what I do, you know, in my other decision making roles, to incorporate in my personal decision making, to make it a little smoother.

I like that because the models can be widely applicable. And a lot of times we just stay so focused on one mode of thinking in one area that we don't recognize that we think differently in different areas and that different type of thinking could be beneficial here too.

Yes, absolutely.

Oh, this is good. This is good. So now let's. Let's talk about the preparation portion of the negotiation. Because let's say we have this negotiation with ourselves internally. Okay, great. I have the clarity. I understand what I want, why I want it. I understand what emotional barriers might get in the way, and I've kind of worked around that. Now, in your experience negotiating and resolving conflicts, when it comes to preparation, what does prep look like for you?

I think it, you know, when I am in a role where I am listening to other people and trying to make a decision, you know, on behalf of the court, for example, preparation is trying to understand kind of the emotions of each side and making sure that I build in time into the conversation so that they can express those or at least feel like they have time to express those. Because I think it is easier for me personally to make a decision or recommend a decision when I feel comfortable that the people have felt like the process was fair, right? Like they had a chance to be heard, they had a chance to kind of share their thoughts, their positions. Then it becomes much easier, you know, to make a decision. And it's interesting because we work with attorneys a lot, and I think it's pretty easy to see attorneys who can very clearly put their attorney hat on and represent their clients. Right? A third party. And then there are some lawyers who they're representing a third party, but it's still, for whatever reason, is very personal to them. And that can kind of come across in their communication style. And so it's almost like they need time to vent or let it out. But I mean, I think the first part of the process that's really important. Right. Is to just make sure that there's that space and time to let people have an opportunity to, you know, share their viewpoints.

I love this because emotional intelligence is critical in negotiation, but especially for people who are very technical. Both of us, we're lawyers, we have that background, and we know how we can be. But having worked with other professionals, like folks who are engineers, people who deal with numbers a lot, those type of things, we can say, hey, there's a right way and a wrong way here. There's a right answer and a wrong answer, and then we just focus on being right. But there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. And so I really love how we're including that emotional intelligence. Even before we get into the negotiation with the other side, we have to factor that in and say, okay, based on the data I've collected already, what emotional state are they in? Or can I hypothesize what emotions they might be feeling? Because the emotional component is going to have an impact on the negotiation strategy that we choose to employ.

Yeah, absolutely. And even as you were talking, I was thinking in a personal context. The same thing I think applies where it's even just approaching it, like, hey, how are you feeling about this? Is this a good time to chat about this? Or let me know when there might be a good time, like kind of taking the temperature before you actually are ready to dive in tends to be a good tool because then you are also, you know, you're gathering information essentially. Also that helps you make a good decision about when you know the right time is to continue the conversation.

Absolutely. I mean, I think it becomes even clearer in. In family context, too. It's like, hey, I know. Depending on what mood I'm in and what time it is, if Kai asks a question, it doesn't matter how he asks it, the answer could be no or always be yes, just completely based on timing. And I don't think we fully appreciate just how important time and timing is when it comes to these tough conversations. Because you might go in with the right tactics, right strategy, and you might execute effectively during the conversation. But if you don't take the time to understand when the best time to negotiate is, you might fail just because of that.

Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, I have seen, I've worked for A lot of judges, and I've observed a lot of judges and magistrates, and they will very quickly read the temperature of the room. And if someone does not feel ready, they typically do not hesitate to set another date because they almost know that this is going to be fruitless. If you're already coming in here, like if parking was bad and you were late and whatever you go, or you got personal things going on and you're kind of bringing that energy in, you know, even though case volume is very high, and of course there's other pressing things to do, I have seen it pretty consistently by, I would say, you know, good judges, good decision makers, where they will say, hey, let's set another date for this. This appears to not be the best time. And they're respectful of people's emotional states and they know that they're not going to get the result they want, which is some sort of resolution if one or both of the parties is not in a great mental space.

Absolutely. And Stephanie, you said something a little bit ago, I want to go back to this because you talked about the process. And so for you as a future judge, understanding how to make people feel respected throughout a process, even if the outcome isn't what they would want, that's an important part of the process here, of just making good decisions. Now, when it comes to everyday negotiators, whether you're negotiating at work or at home, we have to recognize that we too have the ability to be mindful about process and structure the process in an effective way where people feel respected. And so when we're structuring a negotiation process or a decision making process with other people, what are the hallmarks of a process that make people feel respected?

I think the time and the space, you know, it's almost like before you even get to the content, it's all of this outside stuff, right? Are you inviting the person, are you letting them know what's coming up, that we're going to talk? This is what we want to talk about. Are you like, setting the stage in a way that makes it easy for them to understand kind of where you're going with this? It's one thing to say, hey, can we talk? Do you have five minutes? Versus hey, I've noticed A, B and C. Do you think sometime next week we could put time on the calendar to talk about it? Right. Those are completely different energies. And so I think really being mindful of, like, setting the stage is the first part of the process. And for people that you interact with all the time, like In a workplace. I mean, that part is happening, in my opinion, 24 7. Right. That's just like the culture that we're creating and how we're interacting with people. But I think that definitely is the first piece, like, setting the stage. When is this happening? What are we talking about? Do you know about it? Is it a good time? All of those things so that, like, when we get there, we're not dealing with all that other stuff. We can actually, like, get to the heart of the matter.

This is so good. Because when you think about this part, I think the biggest mistake people make is that they don't think about this at all.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, I am telling you, like, I have had difficult conversations, been part of them, observed them, where people are talking about millions of dollars, projects gone wrong, personal situations, and setting the stage, they're able to reach a resolution. And I think it's a great deal in part of. Because, you know, you've done all this foundational work to make sure that, like, people feel heard and, you know, there's time and space for it. When I know that it works in those situations, I'm like, look, I'm pretty sure it can work, you know, when you're not getting along with your colleague because of something they said in a meeting. Right. Like, something like this is very easily fixable because when you apply these principles, we've got really big problems that are able to be resolved.

Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed 100%. And Stephanie, one of the things that you've said multiple times, it's this pairing time and space. We need to make sure that people have time and space. Now, I think it's easy for somebody to listen to this and say, yep, okay, time and space. That. That's good. Okay, now let's break this down.

Yeah.

Because I want you to really clarify what it is that you mean as it relates to time and space. Let's start off there and Then we'll talk about what people often miss with this.

Okay, so time and space. I really define this as, like, the right time doesn't have to be the perfect time, but it just can't be the bad time, right or a wrong time. So a time that's on someone's calendar, where they know about it, where they, you know, have set aside, like, the time for it, and then space is really like, do they know what they're walking into? Like, are we defining kind of what we're talking about and creating an opportunity for someone to be heard and recognizing that if it doesn't resolve in these 15 or 30 or 45 minutes, we're going to set another time in a week. And recognizing that, like, using this time to give it a, you know, additional time and space, if needed, is going to be well worth it. You know, I get it. Like, we're all busy. We all have a million things to do. Every courtroom in Franklin county general division has 750 cases with. And each of them have two sides who want different things, right? So we're talking about 1400 parties, essentially, that want different things. And so it can definitely be frustrating when you know, you're like, what? Like, you're not ready now? Like, I have to do this again in four weeks or I have to push this out. Like, we don't have time for this. But that typically is the way that people respond best. And that's how you get the outcome you want. Because the alternative is you force it now. And especially for people who are, you know, not in a court setting, but you're talking about, like, working with your neighbor or your actual neighbor down the street, or a real life situation where you're going to have to encounter this person regularly. You know, it can backfire. Like, a little bit of investment on the front end can really spare the relationship going forward.

Absolutely. And you spare the relationship going forward and also save you time in the future. Because I don't think people realize that this is an investment. So it's an investment into the relationship bank account, because you're saying, all right, great. I'm going to show you the respect of giving you the time and space you need so you can not only be heard, but also feel heard. And then if you are mindful about the process, then you save time down the road because there are fewer miscommunications, fewer hurt feelings that need to be addressed and those type of things. And so sometimes we have to slow things down in order to speed it up. But we have this we subscribe to the belief of the cult of busyness in the business world. And so we say, hey, in my cult of busyness, we don't have time for this, so we're going to bully through this conversation. And now you find yourself being forced to make time in the future because you didn't create a good process.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a great way to look at it. It will take up the time. Right. It's whether or not you are prepared for it or not. So now we can do it in a way that we can make the time on our calendar. Like, we can be in control versus it blowing up six months down the road. And then you're forced to create time.

Stephanie, you know what? You know what I really hate? I hate this iceberg analogy. But it is so, so apartment in these situations. Because here's the thing. We haven't even gotten to the point where we're talking about the actual conversation with the other side. And what we would traditionally say is the negotiation. We're recognizing that the bulk of the action starts within ourselves, where we're negotiating with ourselves to address our emotional challenges and also get clarifications so we can make better decisions. We're negotiating in terms of preparing beforehand, and then we're structuring a process, and then we're communicating the process to the other side to get them on board for the process. And if you get these things in order, that alone can be what wins the day during the negotiation. But you can be a highly skilled negotiator and go in and perform perfectly and fail because you didn't do all of this pre work.

Absolutely. And there are plenty of people who know how to do the pre work, and you would probably rate their negotiation skills as, like, average or worse. Right. And it doesn't matter. You know, I talk a lot about relationship building, and that can carry the day. Like, you don't actually have to know the substance most of the time. You just have to know. Right. How people operate and how they communicate and what works and what doesn't and how to build that relationship. And that usually saves the day.

Absolutely. And both of us, we teach negotiation at the law school level, and let's channel our inner law school students here. But, Professor Hannah, they're wrong on the law. Why don't I just bully them with the facts and the law, if I'm objectively correct?

Yes. That's a tough one for a lot of, you know, students, younger people, you know, I shouldn't even say Younger, but just maybe people who are not, as, you know, experienced, I guess, in having these difficult conversations. Because I think once you lived through enough of these scenarios, you understand that life doesn't work. Black and white, right and wrong. I know that's what they teach us in law school and in other places, but that's just not how it works. And what does being right actually mean? Right. And what is considered a win, like, okay, you forced the answer down their throat, but now what? Now they're not going to give you what you want, or you don't have a relationship going forward, or, you know, a whole host of things that could end up being negatives that were kind of unintended consequences of your approach.

Absolutely. Again, there's a big difference between being right and being persuasive. Because we have practiced law, we know that being right doesn't always get us what we want. We've been married for a while. Definitely get what you. What you want.

Yes.

You know, so this is a really important thing for us to keep in mind. And now, now let's go back to negotiation as a decision making tool. When we're talking about going through this process, gathering information, working through this conversation with the other side, at the end of the day, we need to make a decision, they need to make a decision. And if we have a deal, we both are on the same page with this decision portion of the process. What are the biggest challenges when it comes to the very end of the process when we're actually making the decision?

I think that sometimes people think that there is not flexibility in decision making. They think that it's option A or option B, like maybe that's what they've been presented with or that's all they've thought of as options. And I think what can sometimes trip us up is that, like, what if we invent an option C together or an option D? And so sometimes people get nervous about this idea of proposing a new idea or thinking outside the box or we've always done it A or B, and especially in the courthouse, I mean, we are always trying to kind of think outside the box and come up with creative solutions. That's why I love mediation. When people want to go to mediation versus going to the court for a trial or through motion practice because there's some wiggle room for creativity, but not nearly as much as when we're in a mediation process and people have full control over the outcomes. And so I think when it's time to make that decision, sometimes it's like Dang we've done all this work, and I don't like either of these options. I guess this failed. And it's like, well, no, we've done all this work, and so we can create. Use that leverage as leverage to create another option that we all like better.

I love this because the more paths to victory we have, the more likely we are to achieve a victory. And if we just go through this and we say, hey, this is a binary choice, A or B, take it or leave it, we're leaving a lot of options on the table. And we're making it much more difficult for us to come to any kind of conclusion or decision. Probably not a high quality decision either. And now let's say. Okay, okay, Stephanie. All right, well, I'm going to be creative. I'm creative now. I'm a creative person. I've changed, okay. And now I come to the table and I'm creative, but the other person is not creative. They're still in this world where they haven't listened to this episode and they are just seeing this as a binary choice.

Yeah.

So how can I persuade them or make them feel comfortable with this creativity?

So I think you can see, spend a little time using essentially some of the same techniques that got you here to try and see if you can explain, right. Figure out, like, information gather. So we're kind of starting the process again. So, okay, like, what about this? Like, let me gather some information. What about this is not feeling great. Where could we make some tweaks and going down this road again to try and gather information and then see if you can use that information to manipulate the options in a way that is satisfactory, you know, to both parties. But, you know, the good thing about this is you may still do all that and be like, this is a no go. And I think that's okay. Right. I mean, we don't go into every mediation or negotiation wanting resolution or perfect outcomes. That's just not reality. But I think if you feel like you've allowed the process to play out the best of its ability, you know, that's okay. Because also, again with the time and space, another strategy could be, we don't have to end it right now. We do that a lot at the courthouse. Like, okay, you guys are close, but, like, you're hung up on this one little thing, like, let's come back in a month or a week or whatever time, you know, seems to be appropriate. And a lot of times that can also create some more time and space to let people digest what happened. It could go both ways because sometimes they can come back and they say, oh, actually I changed my mind on the whole thing. But I think more often than not they can say, hey, it does make more sense to try and find a middle ground and a second mediation can prove effective.

This is great because, you know, it's funny, sometimes I feel like a one trick pony because people are like, I have this problem in a relationship. What should I do? Well, negotiation skills. Okay, well, what about this? More negotiation skills. Right? Because it's just now we turn this into a situation where there we have a big negotiation where we have a specific thing we're talking about, but then within the negotiation there are micro negotiations. Because you're saying, okay, we're going through this process, we're asking questions, we're gathering information. Now we're getting to the point of trading proposals. They are not being creative. Okay, I'm going to negotiate their creativity. Because like what you said, the example was great. What's not feeling great about this situation? Because you're not saying, hey, you are wrong. Because negotiation expertise requires creativity. No, forget that. What are you feeling? You're feeling something. I'll validate that. So what are you feeling? You understand what that is, and then you problem solve around that potential emotional fear or whatever it might be that's holding them back. And then I love the point that you made about recognizing that we don't need to come to a conclusion right now. And it reminds me about when, back when I was mediating, they kept statistics about all of the, like the court cases and things like that that we did. And I was a facilitative mediator, so I wasn't pushing any side one way or another. So if we didn't get a deal, that wasn't necessarily indicative of a bad mediation, that I'm not pushing for anything. But there was one thing that I did that increased my settlement rate by 20%, even though increasing my settlement rate wasn't the goal, and that was offering more sessions. So instead of just saying, hey, we're done, sorry, have good luck in litigation, say, all right, no, let's come back, let's do it again. They come back, we didn't get a deal. Let's come back and do it again. No, let's do it again. Do sometimes four sessions and then they're bought in and then we get it. So I think again, going back to what you said, time and space, sometimes those are two things you need in order to make a deal.

Yeah. And I think it allows. You can Break it up. You can talk about certain pieces. You can even be strategic, like, hey, we're going to do this over a couple of conversations. I think especially like in a workplace setting where it's like your team, where you have to interact with them every day. Like it is hard to have like this big heavy conversation where we have to make a big decision, you know, in one 60 minute session and people have their personal lives going on. Right. And so, hey, let's break this up into four parts and each, you know, here's the things we're going to talk about during each part. And kind of like you said, like those micro processes inside of like a big negotiation or difficult conversation process can save the day because you're kind of just rinse and repeating something that we know works.

I love this. Ooh, this is so good. All right, last question, last question. So let's say somebody out there is a, they live in Franklin county and they're trying to make a good decision about who to vote for for judge. I can help.

I can help.

So, yes, remind the listeners about you, what you do and how they can get in touch.

Yes, absolutely. So, Hannah for Judge.com is the website. We've got lots of information there. We're on Facebook, LinkedIn. Stephanie, Hannah, you can find me on LinkedIn and we will be on your ballot March 19th. And I truly believe I have the experience and skills to, you know, do a good job, run an efficient docket. And all of the things that we talked about are things that I have been, you know, working on over the last 15 years and have put them in practice. And I know they work and I know they make a difference. The other big piece of what I'm passionate about is re entry. And so folks who are in prison and getting back into our community, I've been working to create a reentry docket at our courthouse, which is essentially like a safety net to help them as they are transitioning back into society. And it helps with, you know, housing and employment and identification and all those things that can sometimes trip people up. And also, I mean, pie in the sky. Wouldn't it be great if we had practical skills component that talked about difficult conversations? Right. And these life skills. So that's, you know, the vision. I would love to, you know, have a conversation with any listener that was interested and ultimately earn their support.

I love it. Stephanie, thank you again for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

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