Customize Sales for Better Connections: Joe Nañez's Tips

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation podcast in the world. I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Joe, thanks for joining us today.

Kwame, thank you for having me. I appreciate the invite.

No, man, it's my pleasure. Long overdue and this is going to be a lot of fun. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I am in sales, have been in sales since I was 14 and I'm quite a bit older than 14 now. So I've been kind of looking at processes. I've been taught to read books and do what other people have done along the way and kind of developed my own technique that I think works very well for all businesses and services. And my particular company, vip, proudly represented behind me. We do accounting and finance recruitment as well as financial solutions for companies. We're based out of Dallas, Texas.

Fantastic. Yes, I'm excited. And so listeners, Joe and I met because I had the opportunity to do a negotiation training at his company and Joe was answering all the questions. I'm like, I need to have this guy on the podcast. So we made it happen. And today we're going to talk about a really interesting part of the sales and negotiation process. And it's the discovery call. And so first we're going to talk about why it's important to pay special attention to the discovery call. Then we're going to focus on understanding the goals of the other side. And then lastly, how and when to bring up price. So, Joe, sell us on this. Why is it so important for us to care at all about this part of the process?

The discovery call is the most important part of the sales process. That is where I am trying to figure out how my product aligns with what you need, why you are looking at products and services. And if I need to spend my time continuing to speak with you and sell my product, or if I need to cut ties because it doesn't look like it's going to be a fit. A proper discovery call should be both sides trying to weed each other out. And if they can't weed each other out, then we move on to the next step.

This is. This is fascinating. And I think what's so interesting about it to me is the fact that a lot of times, especially with young people who are in sales, they're saying, okay, I want to get everybody as a client. Every prospect, I want to close every prospect. But it's. It seems like you have a different approach here because you're saying it might not be a good fit, and I'm willing to let that go.

Yeah, I'm looking for it to not be a good fit. I think that's what you do when you're working from a place of abundance. Right. If I've got 70 phone calls from 70 people today who are all interested in purchasing my product, I'm going to try to cut things short where I think there's no alignment. It's hard to have that same mentality when you're starting a new business or you're starting a new territory and you want every sale that gets in front of you. But that's not always the best case. You've still got to have the same thought process. You've got to work from a concept of abundance.

Okay, so this is good because I really like the mindset element that you just brought in. And I think this is something that we need to incorporate. Whether you're in sales or you're not in sales, you're a leader, those type of things, that mindset of abundance. And so let's actually dig into that part of this process. Can you tell us what you mean by the mindset of abundance and how it helps?

Yeah, my time is worth money. Your time is worth money. And I don't want to be spending my time chasing a sale that isn't going to align. So I've developed a series of questions that I asked to make sure that there is alignment and that there's buy in. And as I run through those for you, as we go through this, it all seems to come together and it makes sense and it helps both sides truly understand how the product or the service fits into their particular needs.

Yeah. And when I think about the mindset of abundance, I think about the opposite to the scarcity mindset. And that's dangerous. That is when you're in dangerous territory because now you start to move from passion to desperation. And if you sound desperate, that is a turn off. That is a turn off in business. It is a turn off in romance. It is in general a turn off. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. It's. That's a scary place to be. You don't want to be there for sure.

Exactly. And what I've found is that when you have that mindset where you're saying, okay, I don't necessarily need this, it resonates with people. It causes people to be more drawn to you. But if you feel desperate, they're wondering to themselves, well, why don't other people want what it is that you're trying to offer? I kind of want to pull away. And the more you push, the more they go away. And so I think it's just counterproductive in all sorts of different ways too.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely agree with you.

Nice. And so tell us again now, going deeper into the process of the sales cycle, you said that in our prep call, you mentioned that the discovery call makes the sales cycle a lot easier, and it also makes it easier for you to sell up the ladder. And what do you mean when you're talking about selling up the ladder?

A lot of times a salesperson connects with the person who is not the decision maker. So asking the proper questions to find out what the process is for making that decision and having a full understanding of how that operates and being able to take control of that so that you are not being pushed around through their sales cycle, but maybe grab a better understanding of their sales cycle and then help them understand there may be some things we need to change here in order for this to be a more fluid process for both of us. If I understand that the CEO or the CFO has a certain directive that they're trying to get to, then I know how my product fits in with that placement. And that's what I talk about settling up the ladder. So that I can then bring that person into the sales process as early as possible to have those conversations with them, and they have a truer understanding of how everything fits together.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And what you're doing there, you're gathering information so you can create a better strategy. And I think a lot of times people come into these conversations and they say, this is my strategy. And they think about their strategy in a static type of way. But what we're seeing here is that the strategy is going to be dynamic based on the information that you get during this call.

Exactly. Being a truly active listener and trying to figure out where there's alignment and where things aren't in alignment fast forwards the sales process immensely.

Yep, absolutely. And moving on to the next part, we're talking about understanding their goals. And so in order to understand their goals, we have to be curious, ask questions. And you mentioned that you have a set of questions that you typically ask, right?

Yes, absolutely. The very first question that I ask is, what are the top three goals for your company to accomplish this year? And I usually ask it from the CEO or CFO perspective. So if I'm talking to them directly, I can ask that directly. If I'm talking to a person, that's any title or position underneath that, I say, you know, if we went to your CEO or your CFO and we asked for the top, you know, two or three goals to achieve this year, walk me through that. Help me understand where the company wants to go. So the purpose behind that question is that there's going to have to be money allocated to whatever my product or service is. And if it doesn't fit into your company's business goals, I don't care how much you like it, I don't care how much I want to sell it to you, the odds of it having funds allocated towards it are going to diminish. So I want to make sure from the very first question that I understand what the company's goals are and that at some point I start tying my product or my service into your company's goals for the year.

Joe, the thing that I like about this is that it is. This is next level stuff, because I think what a lot of people would focus on is what do you want my specific product or service to do for you? But you're starting in a completely different space. You're saying, forget my product or service for a second. Just overall company goals. I think that's really fascinating and I want to really hammer down on this. So why is it so important to start there versus focusing on what your product and service can do for them in the short term.

It's a great question for me. I can't answer your future questions without knowing that first. Right. My product or my service might be able to do 25 different things, but if only six of them tie in with your company's most important goals, then I only want to talk about those six. I want to talk about the six things that are the most important to you. The rest of it is a waste of your time and a waste of my time. And, you know, ultimately, it's. It's not of importance to you. So I hate the sales calls where I hop on the phone with somebody for the first time or I meet in a room with them the first time, they sit down and smack their hands on the table, and they say, okay, you know, tell me about your product. And I have to redirect there. And I have to say, you know what? I'd love to tell you about my product, but first I want to find out what's most important to you. So let me ask you, if I was asking your CEO or your cfo, you know, what your company's direction is this year, what would their top two or three goals be? And I turn that conversation, and it's usually very well received.

That's fascinating. And so here's the thing. As you were saying that, it made me think that should have been a sparring session where that's what I did. But I think this is a great example here, because if we think about it in terms of a fork in a road, that's often what happens. Almost like a decision tree. Different approaches will lead to different directions for the conversation. And if you're not well versed in what's happening, you don't even realize that there's a fork in the road. You just assume that this is the way. And so I think for a lot of people, they're recognizing. I didn't even recognize that there was an alternative option for that critical portion of the conversation. And so a lot of people, they are busy, and sometimes they are really busy, and sometimes they feel like they're busy, but regardless, it manifests itself the same way. They want to get through the conversation very quickly, and so they want to just get down to the business. Right. Joe, what can your company do? And so it's at that moment that you're redirecting. Now, for you, again, going back to the mindset, how is it that you're able to avoid that pressure and redirect, even though you know they clearly want you to go in a different direction. Hello my friends. Before we get back to today's episode, I want to ask you a question. Have you ever wondered how to elevate your team's negotiation game and how you can help the folks on your team have better, difficult conversations? At the American Negotiation Institute, we offer transformative keynotes and workshops tailored to empower professionals with top tier negotiation and conflict resolution skills. Whether it's a keynote for your next event or hands on training for your team, we've got you covered. Don't just negotiate. Master the art with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed.

I don't know that it is pressure or that I feel pressure with it. That's probably a major portion of it. Again, I fine tuned this so I know what direction I want it to go from the time I walk in the door. But the reason I say I don't feel pressure from it is because ultimately that question the Tell me about your product, tell me about your service usually comes from them not knowing where to start. They're busy. They haven't planned out this meeting the way I have. I've spent hours doing my research before I go sit down with somebody and typically they're just walking into the meeting fairly fresh and sometimes don't remember quite why they set the meeting with you. So they haven't put as much time and effort. They don't know where to go. So that's a very simple question for them to ask. Tell me about your product or service. So I think it shows them. Look, I haven't an interest in your business and I want to know a little bit more about you before I move forward with talking about how I'm going to be able to help if I'm going to be able to help.

That makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense. And again, listeners, for people who have listened to the podcast, I know they know what's coming. You see the value of preparation and that's why you should download our free negotiation guides. You have over 15 free guides to choose from. Business negotiation, salary negotiations, all those different things. But the key is preparation. So doing your research and strategic preparation to know what kinds of questions you're going to ask and when you're going to ask those, that's really helpful. And again, Joe, to your point, like you said, you're not feeling that pressure because you saw this coming and you had a plan and so I think it's important for people to take the time to prepare. So americannegotiationinstitute.com guide and there's a link in the description below too. So this is fantastic. And so let's say we get past that first question. I know you said there's a series of questions that you ask. What comes next?

What comes next is what you thought was going to be the first step, and that is what gaps do you have in your current process that you're trying to fix? Why are we here? And so I have them walk me through what those gaps are and I have a series of questions and it's a very natural flow of communication with from there. So once you start telling me, you know, so I'm in the recruiting game, right? So they say, okay, well, we've got a controller, our controllers leaving and we need to replace this particular seat. And I'll say, okay, so what is, what are we trying to look to replace? Were there any gaps in the previous seat that you would like to fill? And then knowing the company's directions that we've already discussed, are there some skills that are going to be needed to move from this point forward? So we have that conversation surrounding either the product or the service. But I want to hear from you what you need. Again, I'm trying to drill down into what's important to you. I don't want to talk about everything that we do, I want to talk only about what's important to you.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And you know, I think about in terms of the distinction between aiming and firing. Right. And so you're spending a lot of time aiming, so you don't need to take that many shots. And what I'm seeing is that it's curiosity driven, which again, for listeners of the show, not very surprising. Right. It works. And so again, for people who are newer at this or might have the challenge of over talking, how do you pull back when you want to tell them what the right answer is? Because a lot of times I know you already. No, you have a reasonable assumption of what that might be and you just want to go straight there. So how do you hold back?

That's a great question. In my discovery calls, I don't talk very much. My purpose is not to talk. My purpose is to schedule a second conversation where we actually dig into my end of business. So during my discovery call, I don't feel pressured to start telling you about what we do, how we do it, how I'm going to solve the world's problems and yours while we're at it. That is just not. That's not how I do it. I schedule a very short, somewhere between 15 to 30 minutes to run through these questions and the goal of my discovery call. And I will tell them this before we have the discovery call. The goal is to figure out if we want to allocate more time to it after that, then we're going to schedule 30 minutes to an hour to actually walk through how my product or service is going to fit to what you need.

Oh, man, this is great. This is really, really great. Fantastic. And so again, under the, under understanding their goals, that's what we're talking about. Is there another question that comes next that you already have planned?

Oh, there's. Like I said, there's a series. So once I understand what you want, then I want to find out what you've been doing to work around that. So if you've got a. If it's a product you're looking at or maybe a software, and you say, well, I need. My software doesn't do this. It's gotten us to this point, but it's not going to get us to move forward. How, you know, I'm looking at ways that we're going to be able to improve our processes as we move forward. That helps me understand what they're looking for. But then, then my next step is to challenge them and to say, well, it sounds. I'll ask them, what have you been doing to close those gaps now? How have you been working around the issues that you're having? And I let them walk me through that process. Usually it's pretty painful for them. They'll say, well, we're working later nights, we're working more hours. We're stretched a little bit thin right now and we need something that's going to help us get away from that. And I challenge them at that point and I say, well, what's, what's driving you to start to look at a product instead of just continuing to do things the way you've been doing them? Obviously what you've been doing is working and talking to me, if it works out, is going to cost the company money in terms of my product. So why not just keep doing what you're doing? And that is where, for me, where the sale starts to happen.

That's brilliant. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And one of the things I like about this too is that we often hear the importance of the feeling of pain and discomfort in the sales process. What's happening is you're not the person pushing the pain. They're sharing it. So it's almost like that negativity isn't associated with you. It's not Joe coming in and making me feel bad about myself. It's Joe asking me a question and recognizing and helping me to recognize just how bad the situation is.

Yeah, I studied martial arts for a little bit, a little portion of my life. And one of the things that we learned very quickly is push, pull. Right. If I push you, you're going to lean into me, and if I pull you, you're going to pull back. So what you're talking about right now just always ticks that in my mind of if I start saying, oh, you've got pain here, I understand this, I understand that. And I pretend to understand by trying to pull you in, you're going to start leaning back and you're going to start defending the way you've been working around those gaps. And now I've put myself at a deficit versus just asking you, why don't you just continue doing what you're doing? Why are you starting to look at this and is that worth it to you? So I get a much different reaction. They start selling my product or my service for me, they start understanding. They talk themselves through why they need to be on the phone call with me.

Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Smoother process for you.

Yeah. So from there, I typically ask, well, so then how are these solving these issues going to affect your team? How are these solving these issues going to affect you? And once they answer that question, then that's a little portion where I take time to talk and I say, okay, so if I'm looking at the top three goals of the company and I'm looking at how this fits together, it seems like purchasing this particular product is going to bring down the number of hours that, you know, that you guys are working on, on getting these things done, which is going to decrease your spend there, and it's going to allow your team to enjoy the position, which means less turnover. And if your goal this year is growth, then you're not going to have to be dealing with turnover and a poor team mentality as you're bringing new people in. So that's the portion where I draw everything together.

I love it. Because what's happening here is that you spend the first part of the conversation allowing them to give you exactly what you need at this critical part of the conversation.

Right.

Because you're taking their words and then taking your solution and Putting them together and just saying, hey, by the way, look what I found. Seems a lot more organic.

It is organic and it's honest. So, you know, these aren't questions that I've come up with to be able to push somebody into working with me. They're questions that I've really developed because I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense for me to work with them as well. And I really am coming at it from a place where I don't want to waste your time. I don't want to waste my time. If, if this doesn't look like it's going to line or doesn't work, or if you don't have answers to these questions, if you don't know what your company's top three goals are, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire and I'm going to tell you, hey, you know, that's pretty important to our conversation. Would you mind doing a little research for me and shooting me a bullet pointed email that gives me that so that I can understand your business a little bit better? That is, it's important to have that right.

And so from this point now, you've shared the information, you've shared the solution. What happens next in your process?

That's where I try to figure out where the person is coming from. So the question I would ask next is the directive to look at this and to look at the product or to look at the service. Is that your initiative or is that coming from somebody above you? That question is very important because that leads into what you were talking about earlier is who's actually making the decision here. Right. So everybody else asked that question, well, are you making the decision on this product? Well, that, to me, that's a push question. So they're going to lean back in and yes, I'm the decision maker and you're going to find out a few days down the road that they've got to take it to their boss and then their boss has to take it to the board and the board has to approve it. So when I asked that question, the thought process is, if you tell me that this is something that you're pushing, then I might challenge you a little bit on it and say, hey, are you going to have buy in from your superiors or how is this going to work? Most of the time people will tell me, well, this is actually coming from my boss. And I'll say, well, is he getting pushed from above him? And, and what does that mean for the actual decision making process at the End are these people going to be involved? And if they are going to be involved, how soon or how early can we get them included in the process?

Yeah, this is great. Joe. I really especially enjoy the recognizing the strategy that you're using with the techniques. Right. Because again, it's organic and it's genuine, it's honest, it's ethical, but it's intentional. I think that's what's so important. Because people say, okay, Kwame, you say, ask questions. I'm going to ask questions. There are levels to this game when it comes to asking questions. You need to ask the right questions at the right times and formulate it the right way. Because what you demonstrated here is that there are ways to get to the authority question without asking, do you have authority? Right. Because you want to create it. Create some psychological safety, allowing them to feel comfortable sharing that information. And the way that you approach it, the framing that you use for the conversation and the question is going to be those things are going to be very important when it comes to being successful with the question that you're asking.

Absolutely. And there's another place for a challenge there. So if we get to a point where it looks like it makes sense for us to go ahead and schedule the next meeting, then I will tell them flat out, you know, can we get the decision makers involved in this part of the process? And I explained to them that the reason is I've been doing this long enough to know that I'm going to explain it to you, and you're going to ask intelligent questions, and I'm going to answer those intelligent questions, and then you're going to go to your boss and you're going to disseminate the information, and then your boss is going to ask you intelligent questions, but they're going to ask you a question that you didn't think to ask. And then you're going to have to come back to me, and then I'm going to have to go back to you, and then you're going to have to go back to them. And before you know it, all of the time that you and I spent together doing demonstration of the product, I'm going to have to do it again. I'm going to have to do it again with that person. So can we just get them involved from the beginning and make everybody's life a little bit easier?

Yeah. And I really appreciate how you are laying out the reason why not just saying, can the decision maker come, period. Again, the way that you structure it is really important because you tell them very vividly what's going to happen. And at the same time, you do it in a way that is respectful to their position, too. Because we say, listen, you're asking me great questions. I know you understand this. They're going to ask questions, and it's not going to be your fault that you don't have those answers. This is not an indictment on your performance. This is just a reality of the situation.

Yeah, exactly. And I would say stick to your guns on that, too, because I can't tell you how many times I've scheduled the next conversation. And let's say the CFO is accepted the request, and then their schedule or their meeting changes at the last minute. And I'll hop onto a Zoom meeting, and the other person will be on the line and they'll say, hey, I'm so sorry. You know, Sarah can't make it at the minute. She had something come up. And I will cut it right there and I'll say, you know what? I understand schedules change. Why don't we reschedule as soon as she's available?

Again, subtle but powerful. Right? A lot of times it's the status quo bias. Well, I'm here, you're here. We allocated the time. He knows or she knows that I have the time. So they're going to just want to just do it. Right. But I really respect the reality of your approach, where you just say, no, this won't work. And I think during that process in doing that, it causes them to respect you more, which ultimately puts you in a better position down the road for the close.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. So as we're going through that process, before I start, you know, deciding whether or not we can schedule for our next timeframe together or if it fits, that's when I talk price. And I know a lot of salespeople want to hold that part until the end. Right. They want to have this whole conversation and bring you in and show you the value, and then, you know, the money is the kind of last surprise at the end. I hate that. I think that's a horrible process. And. Because, I mean, we've all seen the videos online where there's something that you're interested and you click on it and. And then all of a sudden it's just information, information, information, and you're just thinking in your head, can I afford this? What does this thing cost? Is this worth it? And you can't really absorb the information because you're really locked into something else. So I will ask you directly. Well, okay. So let's. Let's talk money. If this directive is coming from your cfo, then I would assume that you guys have talked about price. Is there a ballpark within which you need to work, and have you got that ballpark identified? Usually the answer is, yes, we've identified a ballpark, but I don't feel comfortable sharing it with you. Right. They don't know if their ballpark is too high or if it's too low. They don't want to be embarrassed by the number they've come up with. And I recognized that. So I prepared for it. And I say, okay, well, let me be candid with you. You've got these three major processes that you're trying to revamp, and my product does a lot of things, but it does those things. And I can do. We can cover those things at different ranges, right? We can. We can go with this portion. That solves a portion of your problem. We can solve 50% of your problem, or we can solve 100% of your problem. So we've got a price range that we're going to work within, and that price range usually falls between X and Y. Is that comfortable for you? Is that within your ballpark? Because if it's not, I don't want to waste your time or your boss's time or my time moving to the next step. If it's something that you're just not.

Comfortable with, yeah, that's good, because you're setting expectations at that point. Right. And gathering information based on their response.

And I'm deciding if they are somebody who's got the funding available for me to continue to utilize my time trying to pursue. And if they're not, then I can go prospect. And prospecting is where your money's made, so I can spend more time going after business that I've got a much higher chance of getting. But what I've realized is that because so many people, salespeople, save that dollars and cents portion to the end, that they gather a. Or garner a much higher respect for you for just being upfront with it at the beginning and letting them know, here's our range. Are you good with it?

Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And so when you're actually. When you're getting that response, what in particular are you looking for?

Which response are you referring to?

To the range. How does that sit with you?

That's. I'm comfortable with it. If they give me a range, I love it. If they give me a range and it's higher than what I Caused, because then I can then come back and tell them, oh, well, I'm glad you've allocated that amount of funding to this. I can see that this is important to you. I'm going to be, like $10,000 less than that. So I think that this is going to be a refreshing conversation. If they're not able to give me their number and I'm just telling them what our range is, I mean, that's what we cost. That's our value. I know what the value of my service is. You've helped me understand how my company's value is built into the problems that you're trying to solve. So I'm completely comfortable having a dollars and cents conversation.

No, that makes a lot of sense. Nice. And so what else should we consider? Because we've taken the time to gather the information, we've asked these series of questions, We've really validated whether or not this is the person. It seems like we're in the right range at this point. Now, is this one of those situations where we say, all right, ABCs always be closing, or is there something else we should do before we rush to that portion?

Well, I think that depends on the product. Right. So there are some places where that's it. If you've gotten through this conversation and you've got the decision maker on the phone and they're a go with everything, it's, you know, what steps do we need to take next? What do I. What do I need to do next for you? You? And if they say, send me a contract, I'm sending a contract. If they say, you know, hey, send me some bullet points and let me think through this, then, you know, then it's the typical okay, when do you want me to follow up? Do you want to follow up with me? How are we going to structure this? And if I can't get in touch with you on your desk phone, you know, is there a direct number I can call to get in touch with you? And I love to tell people I am absolutely with an great with an okay or great with a yes. I'm okay with the. With a no. But I. I have a difficult time with the. We're not sure. We need some time. And I let people know you're not going to hurt my feelings. I mean, the people I need to love me are at home, and. And they're going to love me unconditionally. You, Kwame, I'm glad that you like me, but I don't need you to love me. I just need you to be straight.

With me in the process, that's great. And I feel like that's got to be liberating for clients, too, for the prospects, because they can say, okay, well, I can just tell Joe like it is, Right?

Yeah. And if they know they're not going to hurt your feelings and that's just business, then that's just business. I do like to tell people, hey, if I do lose your business to someone else, I would appreciate it if you can give me any tips or tricks or pointers as to why you chose to go in a different direction. So that if there's something I need to look to add to my service or help you understand the value or the next person understand the value, I can better my business. So that's important information to have.

Yeah. And so in that situation, how often do people take you up on that and give you some helpful feedback?

I usually send them an email afterwards, and I'd say nine times out of 10, they'll give me something. And sometimes it just comes down to, hey, we found somebody that's a little less expensive than you. Okay, that's fine. You know, again, I know that my services were there. I know that the value was there. But I also know that we have a value and we have a worth, and we don't want to dip down below that.

Yeah, no, this is great. This is fantastic. Joe, I really appreciate this. But before we go, can you let the listener know again about you, your company, and how they can get in touch with you?

Oh, absolutely. So my company is vip. We are in accounting and finance recruitment. We do executive recruitment. So your CEOs and then your CFOs on down the line in accounting. So from the CFO down to staff accountant, and even for, you know, temporary contract workers to fill in a gap, that's where we earn our dollars and cents. I think that we're fantastic at the controller and CFO level. Those are my favorite areas within which to work. Because we've got a series of questions that are well thought out, much like this to figure out who needs to be in that seat, and again, how that seat needs to be improved with the next person. I think anytime you've got a vacancy in your company, it's an opportunity to improve your company. And. And then we also have a financial solutions division, so we can do financial consulting with company, and we do quite a bit of it. Mergers, acquisitions, revamping processes. Helping people understand their business and help their business grow is extremely important. A lot of companies we work with you know, at the end of the year, they're getting audited by, you know, PwC and, you know, some of your other, you know, larger corporations, kpmg. And that costs a lot of money. Well, we're about 30% lower to 33% lower in cost than those companies. So a lot of people hire us to come in, look everything over first, clean everything up so that when they do have to go to the people who cost the big dollars, they're in and out. Processes are simple. And so they can find us online at we are VIP.com and if they want to reach out to me personally. Welcome to shoot me an email at any time. That's my first initial J. My last named Nanez N A N E Z at we are v I p.com Fantastic.

Joe, thank you again for this masterclass. Really appreciate it.

Thank you, Kwame. I appreciate being here.

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