Deepa Purushothaman: The Shocking Ways Toxic Workplaces Affect Your Health

Hello, my friend, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. Thanks for joining us today. With over 10 million downloads and listeners from more than 180 different countries, it's dedicated listeners just like you who have made Negotiate Anything the number one negotiation.

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I'm your host, Kwame Christian. I'm a business lawyer, mediator, author, and the proud CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Now, before we get into today's insightful conversation, I have a golden opportunity for those of you who recognize the power of negotiation in your professional lives. Have you ever found yourself wishing that you could navigate those high stakes conversations with more confidence? Or perhaps you're looking to empower your team with the art of persuasion and conflict resolution? At the American Negotiation Institute, we've crafted specialized keynotes and workshops tailored for those very needs. We've transformed the negotiation skills of professionals worldwide and we're eager to do the same for you. We believe the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And our goal is to help you improve your lives and the lives of those around you, one difficult conversation at a time. Don't let another challenging conversation leave you second guessing. Click the link in the description to discover how we can help you find confidence in conflict, negotiate better deals, and have stronger relationships. Because in the world of business, every conversation counts. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Deepa, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Yes, it is my pleasure, my friend. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. I spent over 20 years in corporate. I was a partner at Deloitte. I left about four years ago, give or take. We can talk about that. And started my own company. It's called the Rewrite and we help rewrite work cultures. And I'm also an author. The first the Few, the Only is the book that came out in 2020.

Hold on. Pause 1, 1 second. The. The audio kind of flared on your book title, so I want to make sure that they got that right. So let's take it from. You're also the author because that I want to make sure they got the name right.

I'm also the author of the first the Few, the How Women of Color Redefine Power in Corporate America.

Fantastic. And congratulations on your entrepreneurial journey and your journey as an author. This is very exciting.

Thank you.

We're pumped to have you, especially first and foremost because you come highly recommended. So listeners, if you remember Meggie Palmer. She's been a guest on the podcast a number of times. She recommended Diva. And so there are a few people in the world, whenever they say, you should have this person on the podcast, no questions asked, no research.

I love her. So, yes, I'm glad she made the connection happen.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So today we are talking about renegotiating workplace culture, and I think really giving the audience a bit of a background on your approach and not just your experience from corporate, but also the fact that you have a background in negotiation as well and how all of that informs your methodology. I think that would be a really good starting point.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I was sharing before we started the podcast that my initial background, my graduate degree, was actually in negotiation studies. And so, yes, I speak that language, understand where it comes from, and obviously a practice. Right. Worked with a lot of companies in tech and telecom over my two decades in corporate. But what I've been doing in the last few years is working with a lot of companies on topics of De and I, but also related to just changing culture and change, the way that work is changing. And coming out of COVID you know, everything we're facing. And so I think I call it a super moment. I think we're in a super moment where so many things are happening on top of each other. And so we're in this constant sort of renegotiation, rethinking, rewriting. If I can use, you know, my own language there, around how we think about work and how we think about work culture and how fast it's changed.

Absolutely. And I think everybody has felt this in different ways. When you think about pre COVID 19, the way we did business in 2018 is fundamentally different from the way that we do things now. And these cultures, these not just cultures, but structures within organizations, how everything is organized, operations, systems, policies, whatever it happens to be, they're constantly changing and evolving. And if we're not mindful about how those changes are happening, then the change kind of happens to us rather than us kind of guiding the change. And so can you just speak a little bit more to what some of these challenges could be?

Yeah, I'm smiling because I might even debate you on a little bit of the language. Because part of what I talk about quite a bit is I think for a lot of us, we focus on fixing. And again, a lot of the work I do is in the space of women. So we focus on fixing the women. Right. Let's fix the woman. Let's teach her something. Let's talk. You know, teach her how to ask for more pay. We don't actually talk about the structural challenges. And so that's a lot of how I come out. The issue is, yes, there are things we can do to empower individuals and help them find their voice. But so much of this is also looking at the fact that the way we work and the workplaces that we designed were designed decades ago. And they come from a history where we had a two parent household and one person stayed at home, usually the woman. And we now live in this very different society. We've never updated the processes. We don't really. We haven't updated how we work in the expectations of air quotes, the ideal worker. And so, yes, a lot of what we're facing is we are renegotiating, but we're not necessarily rewriting or looking at where it came from. And that's the challenge.

First of all, I love the semantics because that matters a lot. And just out of curiosity, are you familiar with Kate Everly Walker?

I'm not, no.

She wrote a book. I forget the name of the book, but one of the things that we were talking about was we were talking about gender dynamics and negotiation. But one thing that she said at the beginning, before we got on, you know, we're doing the chit chat, she's like, I don't want us to focus on the fixing women narrative because it always says, hey, women should do this, they should do this, and this is how you negotiate effectively. But she wanted to change the paradigm. And I think it's so important because very few people do what you just did, which is slow down the conversation and really address the definitions, because the definitions will guide the conversation. And if we're not intentional about that, then it could guide the conversation in a way that is not as productive.

I love that. Yeah. My negotiation background, by the way, was in race and gender studies. So 25 years ago, I studied how different groups negotiate differently. And I feel like now, 25 late years later, as I look at that sort of discourse, and I still work with a lot of negotiation professors, the language that we even talk about, it is different. You know, there is a fundamental, yes, we can teach people to negotiate, we can teach people to understand where they're coming from. But processes, places, situations show up differently for different groups. And we're just getting okay with talking about that. In places like corporate America, it's still very uncomfortable for people, but that's really where I think the nuance and the opportunity sits.

I agree 100% and really, like you said this. It is. It's tough for people to talk about this, but it is obviously necessary for us to talk about this. So let's talk about the fundamental importance of having these conversations, because I think one of the reasons why the changes that need to happen don't happen is because either one, the conversations aren't happening at all, or two, they're happening, but they're happening in a way that is ultimately unproductive.

Absolutely. I think people don't like to have uncomfortable conversations. We were chatting about this, and so they. They stay away from them. And I have found when I go on, on big stages, I will start with a story. And it's a story that I had or a conversation I had with Renee Myers. And she used to be the VP of inclusion at Netflix. It's the first story in my book. And when we sat down to talk about topics of inclusion and women in the workplace, she said, can we talk about airplane design? And she said, deepa, when I was a young mom and I used to fly, I would put the suitcase overhead, and then I would spend the entire flight wondering, worrying, as a new mom with young children, is a suitcase going to fall on my child? I would have never designed the system that way. And I shared with you, I was a partner. So I used to fly sometimes three cities a week. So six times a week, I'm putting my suitcase up and taking it down, and I'm 5:1, so I have to stand on the seat. I will start to fret about what I packed. I will look for help. I make it about me. And Renee's tall, so she jumped in and said, deep. I never even thought about that. And here we were, two women having this conversation about a small space showing up differently for both of us. By the way, I went and did the research and found out that only 2 to 3% of airplane designers were women. So maybe these considerations weren't in place. But I use that analogy, and I talk about the workplace, because if a small space shows up differently for us and we're just having this conversation, how do we have that conversation in the workplace? And so it's a way that I find that we can have uncomfortable conversations, but people don't always make the jump without that sort of storytelling, that sort of analogy. And so I find people want to have the conversations that are difficult, but they don't know where to start the conversation, if that makes sense. And the story, the analogy that let me put you in a. In their airplane, because that is something that a lot of the men I work with are comfortable talking about. And then let's extrapolate to the works.

Oh, this is good. All right, listeners. You see, the masterclass in persuasion is starting early because I don't want people to overlook the underlying point of this, too, because we can now we have a really great tool, a great story to understand how these structures, these systems affect different people differently in ways that are often invisible for the people who are unaffected by them.

Right.

I also want to make sure that we highlight the persuasive process that you utilize, because starting off with a story, everybody can connect with a story. I think about it as the Trojan horse theory of persuasion. So it's like we might have a tough conversation, but then when you say, let me tell you a story, everybody turns into a child and wants to listen. Right. And so they absorb the message of the story, so it lowers the defenses. People can absorb the message, and now they're more comfortable. And now we can gradually increase the level of difficulty in the conversation, especially with these sensitive issues. I think a lot of times we say, okay, who are you? Who am I? This is how we're different, and this is where we disagree and start. We have no positive momentum for this conversation, and so it's almost doomed for failure from the beginning. So just the persuasive process of starting with such a relatable story, I think this is really, really powerful for us to really absorb.

Yeah, I love that. I've never dissected sort of the mode to that process, but, yeah, it makes sense, because then my next sentence will often be, and so I want to talk about the fact that workplaces are not a meritocracy. They show up differently for different people. Right. Mic drop. That's a big statement. If I started with that, to your point, I think a lot of people would be sitting back in their chair saying, oh, this is going to be one of those conversations. And so, yeah, sometimes, I don't know, I've gotten to a place where I think sometimes you have to meet people where they are. I'm going to take them where I want to take them. But sometimes it's helpful to meet them where they are. When you start the discussion, this is good.

This is good because I think about these conversations as a function of mindset and skillset. A lot of times the mindset can hold us back in surprising ways. And I want you to give your perspective. You might disagree, and that's completely fine. But I recognize that a lot of times when people are fighting for positive Change. A lot of times they are so passionate about this that they focus so much on themselves, the problems that exist and the change they want to see. They forget that there's another person in front of them and then they don't incorporate that person into their conversational strategy. And they're recognizing very quickly there's a difference between being right and being persuasive because they might be objectively correct in everything that they're saying, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're saying it in a persuasive type of way.

Yeah, no, I love that. There's an author named Dolly Chug and she has this, and I don't remember the title of the book, so I'll have to go find it, but she has this idea of heat and light that when you're in a difficult situation, you can approach people with heat or you can approach them and try and persuade them with light. Meaning you can hard hit them, tell them they're wrong, and really try and change their mind. Or you can say in a loving sort of way, this is why what you said really is hard for me. And I don't know, I tend to come from a place, not always, but I tend to come from a place where people want to do better if they know how to do better. Right. And I try and start with that in these sort of difficult conversations and then I move from there. But yeah, I loved, I like Dolly's approach because there are different ways to have these hard conversations.

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Let's go deeper in this deepa, because I think there again, you dropped another little bit of brilliance here that I do not want us to overlook. So you assume that people are coming from a good place. Why do you make that assumption? Especially in a situation where people are getting harmed? Perhaps?

Yeah, I come from that place because otherwise this work is hard to do and I've learned the hard way. And so I Think part of what we don't realize. And this is new to me, Right. I was a corporate person. I didn't always think about my own energy and how I protect myself. When you do this kind of hard work, when you have uncomfortable conversations. I'm the right word. I'm very empathetic to people who are around me. So I definitely also take in their energy. And so for me it's helpful to approach a situation. I'm not blind. Right. If someone approaches me in a hostile way, I'm not going to stay the whole conversation thinking they're good hearted. But I need to approach the conversation in that sort of way because otherwise my guard is up and I enter the conversation in a very sort of guarded, restricted. I'm not going to be open minded. And so I like to come from a place of they're trying to do better and let me help them. And if they again, I'll give people three chances and sometimes not all the time, but I'll give people three chances and by the third time if they've done the same thing. Yeah, that they're probably not going to get my time yet. That that's really the role I've come to later in life with age behind me.

So yes, I've recognized people have. What is a good podcast appropriate way of saying this? People give fewer Fs as they get older. Yeah, exactly.

You learn that, you learn. Right. So yes, exactly.

No, I think ultimately too really what it comes down to is you give people the benefit of the doubt because it is an effective strategy for multiple reasons. Because what you said, it's an effective strategy for self preservation. Yeah. This work is very heavy. Right. So it helps you with your own mental health. But also the energy is often reciprocated. If we go into this guarded and assuming the worst, then they get defensive. They can feel that, they can sense that. And with that plain example, we can recognize that there are people who try their hardest and try to treat everybody well. But because we are people, we have blind spots and we might unintentionally do things or say things or create structures that negatively impact people who don't share our background. And when you start off with that benefit of the doubt, it makes it a lot easier for them to lean into the conversation and actually wholeheartedly engage rather than feeling like they need to be protecting themselves and afraid of being canceled through the whole interaction.

And I also wanna caution because I think it would be disingenuous to say always be that way. But yes, for me in doing this work, if someone's inviting me into a company, then I wanna come from a place that most people wanna hear me. But yes, I mean, if something is harmful, please don't stay there. Please don't assume everyone is going to be welcoming. Like we also have to teach people how to get out of toxic, harmful situations. That's also part of my message.

So 100%, yeah, this is a rebuttable assumption. Right. We're going to go in and he's going to assume, but it's the intent. But we are going to be mindful of the fact that if we are getting data that says otherwise, please protect us.

Going to take it. Yes.

Yeah. And I think honestly that is very important for people to appreciate because I feel like there's some advocates who are trying really hard to create positive change, whether it's in this space or otherwise. And they feel as though they need to, to stay in unproductive or harmful relationships or conversations just for the sake of kind of checking the box and saying, I'm not going to give up. But sometimes it's not giving up, it's a strategic retreat because now you have more of yourself and more energy to actually pour into more fruitful conversations down the road too.

Yeah, I smile because so much of what I find, I mean, first few only, I interviewed over 500 senior women of color in writing that book, I started to see trends. Right. So I think a lot of us have also been taught stories in childhood about being grateful, about being thankful, you know, be blessed for the opportunity. And so we tend to stay in situations that are even more difficult if you are an only. And so that's where my message of, yes, I have to come from a personal place of you want me here and I'm going to be helpful and you're going to be open minded. But I also think if, you know, workplaces are not all workplaces are friendly for everybody and we have to remember that balance too. So that's where it comes from. Too many of us, I think, are also taught to be grateful and thankful and that's not helpful.

Oh, this is good. And now let's say people are absorbing this message. They're like, listen, Deepa, I feel empowered. I'm going to do something. I recognize that something needs to happen. When we're thinking about the conversations that need to happen in order to create the positive change, it can sometimes be overwhelming and we don't know where to start. So what advice would you have for somebody who wants to start in this journey.

I think so much of the work that you do, I think you have to just be willing to start the conversation and realize it may not go the way you want it to go the first time, but the more personal you can make it. And again, not all of us have energy to do this all the time. Right. And if you do this a lot, you're going to have to set boundaries and there's going to be times where you want to do this work and there's times when you don't. And I think that's. We don't talk about that enough. I don't go have uncomfortable conversations with everybody every single day because that would take its toll. But in moments where you want to, there's someone at work where you really want to get to know better. And you haven't figured out how you bridge that gap. I personally do it over coffee, over a meal. It's easier to get personal with somebody. And I usually start. And this is. I've learned this over time, I usually will start sharing because we don't train people, by the way, to be vulnerable. And I've gotten comfortable with being that way. So I will share a story, and if they will reciprocate, you end up in a very different place. And I learned this because when I was a new partner at Deloitte, I got matched with a very senior partner in this very sort of formal mentoring program. And we walked into our first session and we kind of walked in the room, we both looked at each other, and I don't think he wanted to be there. And I didn't want to be there. Right. I was thinking, what could this very senior partner who didn't look anything like me. And, yeah, I wasn't sure what his valued, his principles were. What was he going to teach me? And I think he looked at me and I remember him calling me a whippersnapper. Like, what was he going to learn from me? And within the second session, I remember sharing with him, like, these are all my insecurities, the things I was worried about. And he stopped me as I was going through, like, point 11 on my list. And he said, deepa, don't you think I have the same insecurities? But I don't walk around talking about them the way that you do. And I won't tell you the whole story, but he became one of my biggest sponsors in that one conversation because we realized there was so much in common. But he had been taught to be vulnerable, Right. And was kind of guarding myself around. What could we have in common. So that was a big lesson for me. And so I do approach it a little bit like, people don't know how to do this, and again, they want to do better if they know how to do better. And so if you can have a personal conversation, really connect in some other way, anything is possible.

Deepa, your stories are amazing. I love these stories because there's such great case studies for how to approach these conversations. So let's break this down. So, first of all, before we even got into the conversation, you were talking about the setting over coffee or over a meal. Let's dig down deeply into the psychology. Why is that such a powerful strategy?

People have always talked about breaking bread. Right. And I think it's just where, I mean, so much of it is tied to legacy and history. But I also think for. For me, I'm an introvert, off the charts introvert. So it's just more comfortable to be out of the office. I feel like I can get more personal. I feel like I'm sharing something that I wouldn't do with some person I don't know. Well. Right. There's a different sort of energy in that. Getting, you know, being in an office across from a desk feels very formal to me. And if I'm trying to have a personal conversation, I want to change that setting and do it differently. But I'm sure you have some deeper thoughts on setting.

Listen, don't. Do not accuse me of nerdiness.

I'm watching your smile. So I thought a big smile.

I can't help myself. No, this is great. You're right. I mean, in every culture, we connect over food, and there's a reason for that. When you're connecting over food, a lot of times the food is warm. That warm feeling kind of permeates the conversation as well. Usually with the food, it has. If you think about this great book, Code of Trust, they talked about how a lot of times when you have, like, a feast, usually we're not usually connecting over things that are very, very healthy. A lot of times the beast has a lot of, like, fattiness in those things. And so, again, that creates a lot of positivity, a lot of the. The dopamine in the. In the. The brain that is connected now with the people that you're sharing the food with. So psychologically, there's a connection that comes with that food. And when we think about a sterile office space, there's a lot of bad things and bad memories that are associated with that. But if we're having a Meal that we are both mutually enjoying. That is a warm memory. So it creates that comfort level. And that's the word you use, comfort.

Yeah, I love that. I didn't know that history, so I love that.

Oh, yeah, it's very helpful. And it feeds into that vulnerability, too, because you're creating a setting where somebody feels comfortable opening up. And just by the setting, you can actually steer the conversation in a very positive direction. So when we're thinking about the negotiation, it even starts before the conversation. Somebody might say, oh, let's just meet in the office. That's a negotiation point. We could say, oh, the office is convenient. What do you think about coffee? That's part of the strategy, too. Yeah.

Well, I just learned something then. Yes. I love that. I do think about, like, my chair height when I go into a conference room. So I do think about that kind of setting, but I have never thought about the dopamine effect. So I like that.

That's great. That's great. And the starting with a story, too. Starting sharing. That's really good, too. So, again, I want to give you an opportunity to share why it's so important to sometimes lead the dance when it comes to that vulnerability aspect. Even though that can be scary sometimes.

I think. I mean, it's so tied to. We had a quick chat before we started, but I think so much of it is tied how we talk about leadership and what we teach leaders of how they should be. So I think it's incumbent upon people like you and I and the next generation to show like, that you can bring vulnerability, empathy, compassion to the workplace. And I think for, you know, my predecessors, they were taught not to do that. So I think it's just partly a little bit of, like, where you are and what you know and what you're able to do. And if you show people those examples, different examples, they may emulate them and do it as well. But so much of this, again, back to how the structure was scripted. It's how we think of leadership. And so part of my work is showing people that leadership can look differently. But in order to do that, I have to model it first. Sometimes I find.

Absolutely. I think that we think about the concept of leadership in a very limited types of type of sense. We also have to be leaders within the conversation. So we're saying, hey, I'm going to lead by example. Vulnerability is going to be an aspect of this relationship. This is how we act vulnerable with each other. I think that's powerful. Let's talk about time, because it takes Time for a lot of these systems and structures to ossify within a company, but it also takes time to create change. But we also want to move with a sense of urgency because we want to create equity and equality as quickly as we possibly can. So strategically, when you're thinking about creating this change, how do we factor in time?

Yeah, I mean, I think this is part of the. You have to understand what you can do as an individual, what you can influence around you through group activity. And I'll come back to that. And then there are going to be processes in places like HR processes. Right. That take a long time to change. And so I think it's understanding just some of those dynamics. I do a lot of writing lately on toxic workplaces, and so I will give you a specific example on how that shows up. So women will reach. Again, I just happen to work with a lot of women, so these women will reach out to me saying, I'm in a toxic work situation. What can I do? And I think part of how I start to parse that out is you have to understand for a lot of. And for a lot of the legal and HR processes, they're not always set up to help the individual. And so understanding that. So, yes, you can go through those processes, but you have to have an understanding. I think, secondly, getting the support around you. But I think there's a really big piece to how we create change that we don't talk about enough. And that is the collective effort. I find in a lot of companies. How you actually address toxic work situations or get a toxic person removed is if six or 10 people have the same experience and you find those stories and you collectively say, this is a problem not just for a depot, but this is a problem for 10 of us. And that is not something, again, we're taught to do. But in this moment, I think it's an example of how structures and change takes a long time, but we're in this moment where we need it to happen faster. And so collective action group stories can really make a big difference.

Oh, this is so good. I can't help myself. Okay, let's talk about toxic workplaces, because I feel like a lot of people perked up when they heard that. Because that's a term that's being utilized right now.

Yes.

Yeah. So what is a good working definition for a toxic workplace?

It's hard to define a couple of sentences. I would say it's a place where hostile activity or your boundaries are being. Sorry, I'm gonna need. I mean, you need A second we can think of.

And Deepa, this happens all the time. So this is.

Yeah, yeah.

Because. Because essentially what I'm. The reason I'm asking is because I think sometimes people use that term so flippantly that it dilutes it. So it's like, oh, you just disagree with somebody. It's not really a toxic workplace.

Yeah.

So if we can figure out causing you harm.

Yeah, I would say it's a place that's causing you harm, but it's different than someone to your point just disagrees with you. I think there's something to be said and I don't know the exact words here, so maybe you can help me. But it's almost like what people say versus what they do are two very fundamentally different things. And so we respect people, yet there is a lot of bad behavior happening around you. Right. Microaggressions, racism, comments like that. We take care of our people. We are working them 100 hours a week and not giving them any time off. Like, I think it's this, what you say and what you do. It's a very sort of newer definition, but don't really match what the company stands for. Yet it's not matching how it's showing up in the work.

Well, like that. So essentially it's like dissonance between what people say, their words and their actions. So there's a dissonance between there. But then also the dissonance is causing harm. So it's almost like corporate gaslighting in a lot of senses, too.

Yeah, it is. But I also would say when I talk about it a lot and what I found in my own research is that it's not that it's causing just stress in the workplace. So a lot of my personal research is that two and three of the women I interviewed were actually having physical manifestations.

Wow.

So illnesses, headaches, stomach. Stomach issues, heart palpitations, physical manifestations of the stress. And. And so that's when I rely. When I say toxic, we're not just talking. It's a little bit bad or it's uncomfortable or I'm not getting what I'm asking for. It is actually causing emotional and physical harm to people.

So what's funny about this deep, it's like, it's almost like reverting to the traditional term of toxicity, like a poison. So it's not a question of, like, how much stress can you handle? We understand that every life is supposed to be stressful, but if we're saying, so how much poison can you handle? That's not a question. None is the answer zero. So it's behavior that is not acceptable in any quantity.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

And we don't talk about that enough. We don't. We're not talking about it enough. Right. I mean, I think for a lot of. I use the word, the language, trauma, which is also difficult to talk about in workplaces, but it's causing trauma to people.

Yeah.

And that is a very newer sort of vocabulary we talk about, but we need to unpack that this is cool.

This is cool. All right, so toxicity is a word in the workplace that has been utilized a lot of times and it's almost utilized to the point where it's is becoming diluted. So when we're thinking about the term toxic within the context of a workplace, what does that mean to you?

Yeah, to me it means it's causing harm to people. And I don't mean it's just causing people to be uncomfortable or it's a comment was made that you can put aside. It's actually causing physical, emotional trauma to people. And I have the data to back it up. Like a lot of the women that I interview have physical manifestation, toxic work environments of not just stress, not just burnout. We're talking about it really having long term effects on their health. And so that when I talk about toxicity, that's what I'm talking about. And also this dissonance between what workplaces say matters to them and actually what's happening in the workplace. So think about it as gaslighting, like, we care about you, but we are going to work you 100 hours. We care about our people, yet we are letting people run around being racist and really harmful to people. Like those things don't match. And so there's a religion.

Absolutely. I think when you think about that definition with that level of precision, what we're recognizing is that this is an acute problem and something that needs to be addressed immediately. Because that definition is much different from a little workplace squabble or an annoyance or a disagreement. This is something that is systemic and pervasive, that needs to be addressed. And so if somebody recognizes that, how would you suggest that they begin starting to chip away and creating positive change in. Under that much duress?

So it's complicated. So one is, I think you have to really take care of yourself. I think you have to get an internal and external network set up so that you can, you know, check in with people. Because a lot of what I find with people when you're being gaslit is you, you Start to question your reality. So making sure you have support systems is really important. I think finding, you know, people who are able to navigate these situations well usually have a sponsor or someone in the organization that does help them navigate through the process. I would also tell you, if a situation doesn't resolve itself, you know, within six months, I find in my research it doesn't usually resolve within years. And so, you know, you have to also listen to yourself. And so the right answer, again, similar to what we talked about before maybe getting out. But I just did a recent piece in earlier in January around healing. And my research suggests it takes for a lot of women two years and people, I should say, two years to heal from a toxic situation. I think that the real challenge that we have in this moment as we're talking about toxicity in a way we've never talked about it before, is one, it is a new topic because we used to just tell people this is a price of rising. Right? This is what it takes to be tough it out, you know, grin and bear it. Those are the messages a lot of us grew up with. Secondly, yeah, it just, it takes a long time to heal that it's not just you. And so I think that's the collective dialogue we're starting to see around this talk.

This is a master class here because I love that we're focusing first on taking care of ourselves. It's kind of like putting your own.

Back to the airplane.

Yeah, no, I think that's really helpful. And I think a lot of times, especially when people have a very self sacrificial and helpful mentality, a lot of times we put other people's needs among, above ourselves. And I think, think a lot of times we have to get permission to take care of ourselves. So I'm glad we started there.

Yeah. All my favorite words, by the way. These are all the things I talk about. Permission.

Yes, yes, I love that, I love that. And then when you think about this approach through the lens of negotiation, this is really a masterclass in negotiation as well. Because you talked about the need for getting support. The support helps us because it helps us to check ourselves to make sure that we're on the right track. Hey, if we're getting gaslit, sometimes you need help to make sure that you're seeing things the right way. And so that's very helpful. But then also earlier you talked about collective effort, recognizing that 6, 10 of many people have experienced the same thing. That helps to again ground your feet in reality. But also when you think about it through the lens of coalition building in negotiation. Now you're negotiating with those other people who have experienced the same thing and say, hey, individually we might not have enough power or social capital to make something happen, but if we collectively come together, we have a lot more persuasive value. And now we can create positive change in a more. In a safer way and a more persuasive way. And then we also talked about batna, which is our best alternative to a negotiated agreement, because you talked about not only internal support, but also external support. So externally that might also be resources, but it might also be considering your alternatives. If this does not work out, what are we going to do? Because if we think about the term toxicity in its original sense, it's kind of like poison. We're not asking ourselves, how much poison can we consume and still be okay? That's a ridiculous calculation. We're saying this is unacceptable as it stands. And so if nothing changes, then I'm going to need to seek an alternative. And that is a very legitimate negotiation strategy too.

Yeah, no, I love all that. As you were summing it up, it reminds me, we did some work around this term called toxic rock stars. And part of the challenge with that sort of term is these are big producers but who behave badly. And a lot of companies don't want to take action on them because. Right. They're big salespeople or high performers. And that's where it turned the original term for me around toxicity. That's where my work started to get really deep on this topic. Because, yes, that's dissonance. Right. So you can't reward bad behavior just because they're a top performer. But that's a little bit of the setup that we have again in the structure. And why just working on yourself or finding your power is great, but the company's not willing to do anything about that because we reward them and we traditionally actually promote those people. Then there's a bigger question here. And so, yes, it's all tied together.

Oh, this is good. This is amazing. And I could talk to you about this all day. Let's finish up with this because I really like the self empowerment aspect of this and giving ourselves the permission to do what's best for us. So one of the things you just mentioned was the importance of listening to ourselves and essentially negotiating with ourselves. We're considering the alternatives. We're figuring out what works for us. So for somebody who is finding themselves in a situation, whether it's overt toxicity or just recognizing that systems and structures are in place that are not beneficial or equitable, when they're having that internal negotiation, what are the things that they should consider?

Yeah, I will just jump to what I have learned and what I want to do in my life going forward. I'm not going to say it's easy for you or easy for other people. What how I want to show up is systems. People are going to show up however they're going to show up. My goal in life now is to show up how I want to show up in any and all of those situations. So even if someone is being egregious, even if a system isn't working in my favor, and I'll give you a quick example about this. It is a legal example, so you'll like it. I want to show up how I'm going to show up, because that's my integrity. That's what matters to me, and that's actually how I find my power. And so I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying I do it all the time, even now, but that's really where I want to get to. And I learned that example when a company tried to sue me as my book was coming out, because I had interviewed somebody and they were afraid that I was going to tell our story. And so without even knowing what I had said, you know, what she had shared with me, they wanted to sue me. And I won't go through all of the details, but I remember just sending on Saturday night, against the advice of my lawyer, I sent them a note and I said, I don't think this is the time to tell a woman of color that she can't tell her truth. We were, in a moment, 2020. It just made no sense. And that I set my boundary and I said, you do what you need to do. I'm going to protect this woman and protect the integrity of my work. And I got a call the next day, and they said, we didn't realize that's how it came across. We want to work with you. And yes, they backtrack. And I could have done a lot of things in that moment. My lawyer wanted to hit them back with legal language and take a different approach. But there was such an important lesson in that for me, and that is really, I think, my lesson that I'm trying to learn going forward. People are going to show up however they show up. But if I can show up in the ways that I want to show up all the time, then I'm winning.

Oh, my gosh, it is taking me so much restraint not to keep this going. We are going to have to have you come back on because Diva, that was a mic drop moment. I cannot add more to that. Thank you, thank you, thank you for coming on the show and sharing your expertise and your stories and your strategies. This is incredibly powerful. And so for the many people who are saying I need more Diva in my life, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Sure. I do a lot of my writing on LinkedIn. Otherwise, my website is deepapuru p u r u.com awesome.

Deepa, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and for all that you do.

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