Devan Leos' Path: Difficult Conversations That Shaped His Life and Career

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Devin, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much for having me, Kwame. I'm very excited to be here. It's an honor.

Yes, man. I am excited to have you. I know we had to overcome obstacles, technical difficulties, to make this happen, but in the spirit of resilience, we pulled it off.

It's wonderful. It's magnificent. I'm glad we're here. Yes, we did have some issues, technical difficulties, but we're here now, so. Yeah. Awesome.

That's what matters. Yeah. So how would you start us off? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Devin Leos. I'm a former Disney Channel actor, also someone who is formerly incarcerated. I was on a show called Mighty Med where I was the starring. One of the starring and co starring roles. I did 46 episodes, so that's pretty much what a lot of people know me for. But after the fame and stuff kind of stopped, I had one of those typical child actor stories, spun out of control, you know, went down a bad path and hit rock bottom, essentially, but then turned my life around five years ago and became an entrepreneur. So now I operate in the public relations and communications sector. And yeah, that's where I'm. That's where I'm at today. So that's who I am.

Yeah, man. Well, we're going to get a bit deeper into that story. And I just admire your resilience for coming back because not everybody does that. And in this episode, listeners, what we're going to do is we're going to kind of explore Devin's story and. And talk about the difficult conversations that have made who he is. Today, we can examine what worked, what didn't Work and talk about what we can learn from it in the process. And we'll also explore what he's doing now in this new chapter and how the difficult conversations he's having, the negotiations, the influence that he's using, how it's impacting his success as an entrepreneur. So, Devin, I guess maybe what would be a good way to start is giving us just like the 10,000 foot view of your life story, because we touched on it in the intro, but we didn't get much detail. So tell us a bit more.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So I was born and raised in Los Angeles, California. You know, pretty like, normal upbringing. I was always someone who loved to be an entertainer. Loved to get in front of the camera. When I was like five, I'd be like, daddy, get the camera door. I want to dance in front of the camera. So I'd always been so called song and dance man. By age 10, I was going to a charter school and I met a guy named Atticus Schaefer, who, if anyone watches the show called the Middle, he plays Brick. And he was a good. He was a great friend of mine. We used to hang out a lot and I used to kind of be like, you know, I would like, fight the bullies and stuff for him. I didn't know he was an actor, but he ended up getting me into the acting industry. One day he's like, you want to do this? And I was like, yeah, that'd be cool. And he's like, dude, come on. So I met with his manager. His manager, you know, she was like, yeah, I like your energy, blah, blah, blah. Ended up going on auditions, booking first commercials, Target commercial, Walmart, voiceover commercials. And then it transitioned into spots on television. I did one with my friend, and then it transitioned into me being the lead role on a Disney show. And then I did that for two or two and a half years where I was the star. So every day, getting up, going to set, you know, that was my life. I mean, that was pretty much my childhood. And then one day it all just kind of stopped abruptly and I found myself in a position where I was typecast, so wasn't getting much work and I didn't know what to do with myself. And then I ended up out on the streets and my life just spun out of control. And I was just a lost and really troubled kid at that time. Ended up getting incarcerated and having some issues with the law and spent. It was 99, actually 100 days in solitary confinement during my incarceration. And during that time, yeah, it was during that time, I read a lot of books, a lot of philosophical books, read a lot of spiritual stuff, you know, did the Bible reading and stuff. I basically kind of realized that I was on a bad path. And I was like, you know what? I'm here for a reason. I should be here. My life was out of control, and I'm lucky that I'm not dead. So, yeah, I decided after I got out of there, I decided while I was in there. But after I got out of there, I was like, you know what? I'm going to never go back to that place ever again. I'm gonna change my life. I'm gonna be someone that's positive influence in the lives of others and that makes a positive impact around me. And I'm gonna, you know, despite the odds being against me, I'm not going to let this define me. And I'm going to come back and do everything I can to, you know, be a productive member of society that's also successful and can provide for their family. So that's where I am today. I now own my own public relations agency as well as serving as the vice president of sales for another public relations agency. And I couldn't be more thankful. And, yeah, so that's where we are today. I guess I'm one of those guys that could look at and say, wow, I guess it's true that people can hit rock bottom and then kind of come back and not let that define them, you know, that you can kind of rehabilitate or you can come back from even the darkest of times.

Hmm. Wow. Again, impressive. Impressive. This. There's a lot to explore here. So when the. When the show ended with Disney, about how old were you at that time?

Let's see, that would have been in 2015. I was about 17 years old. I got cast when I was 14. The pilot when I was 17. The show ended roughly 2015. So, yeah.

Okay. And so at that time, when the show ended, when you were about 17, who were the biggest influences in your life, in your personal life?

A lot of people that I guess I was influenced by a lot of the people that I worked with, which were great people. I was around really great people. And there's always that thing where people like to say, oh, Disney Channel, is this or that. But I was treated very well and I had a lot of good people in my life. So the immediate influences were my co workers. And, you know, as much as I used to be a joker, I was very inspired by them because of, you know, their Professional. Their professional conduct and just the way that, you know, their success and everything. So those were my immediate influences, for sure.

Gotcha. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And now when you think about your. When you were in solitaire, when you had nothing but your books and your thoughts, what changed for you at that time?

Well, I think that for anyone that would find themselves in solitary confinement, stuck in a box for 24 hours a day, only being able to go out and shower three times a week, make a phone call twice a week, you know, when you're in that box, you don't have much to do, so you do a lot of thinking. I think, you know, I think anyone in that situation just kind of is going to be alone with their thoughts. So I had a lot of things going on in my mind, and I've always been kind of an inquisitive person, but I've also, in my youth, been someone that's like, very in denial about things. So during my time in that solitary confinement, I had a lot of. I had a lot of time to just be introspective and be like, okay, why am I here? I'm here because of this reason. I have. I have been living wrong. I've been in denial about my life. And, you know, when you are just kind of like the deafening silence that can sometimes overtake you, it's all you have are your thoughts. So it was just. Yeah, it was just me thinking over and over again about what I did and why I was there and what I had and what I lost and things like that.

Okay, let's go deeper into this. So one of the things that we talk about a lot is the internal negotiation and why that's so important. And really, that is just a nicely branded way of talking about introspection, Right? And so we say that, hey, negotiate with yourself. That's the most important person. You need to negotiate. You need to negotiate with yourself. And when you think about having that opportunity to connect with yourself on a deeper level, to the person who asks the question, why is it important for us to go through an introspective process during our everyday lives? How would you answer that question? Hello, my friends. Before we get back to today's episode.

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I would say it's important because you want to make sure that you're living in the truest version of reality that there is. Because as great as it can feel to kind of dwell in delusion, if you're not living in a sense of reality that is accurate, you're hurting yourself. Right. So it might feel good to be in denial about certain things. Oh, I'm not that bad. And you know, you know this or that. Right. But the truth is, is that being truly introspective and brutally honest and even a bit skeptical at times, I would say, because there is a. There's an author named David Foster Wallace who gave a wonderful commencement speech and he gave it on this idea of combating blind certainty. Right. Like, we think we're the center of the world. We think we know how everything is. We think we know everybody's life, every. And really we're just kind of operating based off of this limited perception that we have. Right. So I think being introspective is, is, is imperative, is like vital. But I also think being brutally honest with your introspective self, because we all know if we look deep inside ourselves, what our issues are. But sometimes it's easy to make excuses when it's ourselves. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy how sometimes we find that for other people, we're not making excuses for them, but with ourselves, we're like, oh, well, you know, it's cause of this, it's cause of that. So I think that, yes, introspection, imperative, but being brutally honest with that as well is just equally important.

Yes. No, you're spot on, Devin. And what you're describing is really common. So in psychology nerd talk, they call it the fundamental attribution error. So it's the way when we see somebody else do something wrong, we say that person did something wrong because they are a bad person. Then if we do something wrong, we come up with all sorts of excuse. So we attribute bad behavior in others to internal factors, but we attribute bad behavior in ourselves to external factors. We blame the circumstances, we blame other people, but we don't blame ourselves. And so when it comes to you and the need to be brutally honest, let's go a little bit deeper. What does that actually look like as a process internally?

Well, I think that when you're being introspective, sometimes with certain things, right, you have to kind of carefully analyze what's going on in your life and internally, because there are certain issues or things happening where it's, you know, certain things can be nuanced. Right. But there are things that are blatantly obviously a problem that we can. We know that we're aware of, whether it's certain issues with maybe addiction or lack of responsibility and so on and so forth. And I think just kind of using a process of proof is kind of where you can figure out if you're on the right track. It's like, okay, well, I feel like I'm not doing well in this area because some people are overly critical of themselves. So it's like there is a fine line between being honestly introspective and then overly critical to where you're like, oh, you're the artist that hates all of their own work, but kind of having as much proof and performing a sanity check and making sure that all the boxes are aligned with what it is that you're looking into. Right. So when you're making excuses for yourself, typically, or excuse me, I should say, when I'm making excuses for myself in the past, I have found that I'm not thinking about it too much, you know, because if I think about it too much, put too much thought into it, then I find that my idea that, you know, oh, it's not my fault, it tends to be wrong. So really, it's about how much evidence you have for that internal introspection. Right. Like, you might think you're horrible, you might think you're great, or you may think you have a problem or a solution, but it has to be backed by evidence, in fact, and it has to be a sane analysis, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it definitely does. It definitely does. And I like that you're trying to make this as objective as possible, focusing on evidence, focusing on the facts, and then also like paying, truly focusing on them and not denying them or avoiding them. Because a lot of people, that's what they do. Like, the evidence is right in front of them, but then they choose not to look. And so it's an example of confirmation bias. We have a preferred conclusion, and then we are going to focus on evidence that supports our conclusion and ignore evidence that does not support our conclusion. This kind of goes back to what you were talking about with skepticism and so being really skeptical essentially of yourself. And so when you're Going through the process and you're introducing that element of skepticism. How do you do that without almost. Because at some point you have to be real with yourself and say, this is what it is. Now, I am certain I know what the answer is, but you kind of have to play devil's advocate in your own head. What does that look like?

Well, I think, I mean, when you said play devil's advocate, I think that's a great thing to do and I would encourage anyone to do it. The interesting thing with devil's advocate is that actually I believe that comes from the Catholic Church. Whenever a saint or someone in the church was to be canonized, they would have a group of the holy priests or whatever play what they call devil's advocate to essentially try and, and say, well, what about this? Or accuse them of whatever they could so that they could respond to that in order to basically see how well they could defend themselves. So I think, yeah, playing devil's advocate and asking yourself, okay, why do I think this? And am I sure? It's kind of like it's a process that you need to do because if you don't, then you're not asking the questions that are important for you to find the answer, right? So your analysis or your conclusion is going to be one sided. If you don't consider the alternatives and explore those and then ultimately come up with a concise and consistent analysis.

Right. No, that makes a lot of sense. And thank you for the history. I did not know that's where the term came from. That's pretty cool. That is pretty cool. So how frequently do you think we should go through this process as far.

As an introspective process or playing devil's advocate? I would say that it's regularly stepping back and questioning what you think, you know, not in a way where you're lost and you're kind of like, oh, I just don't know what's true, what's false. But kind of again, to take it back to David Foster Wallace, you know, combating blind certainty, because it's so easy to get into this mindset where we're so certain of everything, right? Like we were so quick to judge the person that cut us off when they pass us on the freeway and honk at them and say, oh, that person's a piece of. Right? But we don't know that that person might have been rushing to the hospital because they had internal bleeding or they're rushing their wife to the hospital, Right? Like we don't always know what the case is. So we have to be very careful to make assumptions. And I forget who said there was a philosopher that one time said that we don't actually. I think it may have been Marcus Aurelius or something. But I said that we don't actually know anything. That most of the things that we consider fact or opinions and they're based on faith, essentially. And for a lot of times that's true. Right. So we have to be aware of how much we do know things and at what level we know them and realize that we all have faith in the things that we believe.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And now, Devin, when you think about where you were when you were. When you were forced to go through this introspective process, when you residential, you didn't have a choice. And now to where you are right now as a successful entrepreneur having your own agency, how are you taking those lessons and those habits and applying it every day to become better at your craft?

You know, back. I think back about who I was before I had my metamorphosis or my transition, and I think I feel I was so lost. Are we allowed to cuss on this show or are we going to keep it clean?

We are on the LinkedIn network, so let's go with no.

Okay. So let's just put it this way. Way. I was a piece of junk human being and I think back to that and I regret the things that I did. But I also now, the way I'm operating, think to myself, what if there's someone else out in the world or there's other people who are like me at that, you know, they're in their younger point in life. So I not only strive to try to be someone that's positive around my family and in society, but also to the other people who are potentially like me that could be saved from having to go into jail or that, you know, I did a lot of bad things in the past that I'm not proud of and that I regret. So I always think back to that. And I also remind myself constantly of that feeling that I had of guilt because even though I was doing bad things, I was in denial. I was suffering from constant cognitive dissonance, but I was still very guilty. And I hated myself because I would always compare what I once was to where I had fallen down to, and.

It was shameful and go deeper into cognitive dissonance because this is something that a lot of people experience. It's something that a lot of people feel, but they don't understand what it is. And then what they can do about it.

Yeah, I mean, you know, cognitive dissonance. It's one of those things where I don't think it's. It's like. I don't think it's like, oh, you're. You have cognitive dissonance. You're stupid. Because I think we all at times have cognitive dissonance. There's different levels of it. You know, one example would be like, you're a car salesman, and you know that the car has, you know, something wrong with it. It's not a terribly wrong problem. But maybe you don't. Maybe you don't emphasize that right, or you fail to tell them about that because you want to sell the car and you justify it. You're like, well, I have to sell this car. And then you basically go through this process of justifying something and. And it's not coherent or it's. I mean, I would think that's kind of the definition of cognitive dissonance. And I would say that it's anytime we convince ourselves to do something that we know is wrong and justify something despite the facts and. Yeah, I mean, it's basically just justifying things based off of a faulty. Based on a faulty perception or analysis of our current condition.

Exactly. Well said. Yeah. And really what happens is that when you're experiencing that, you feel bad throughout the process. You feel really bad throughout the process. Whenever there is a discrepancy between what we believe and what we do, we're going to feel really bad about the process. It's like, okay, this thing, whatever it happens to be. I know this is a bad thing to do, but I'm going to do it anyway, and I'll come up with some kind of justification. But in doing so, even if I achieve my objective, then I feel bad about the process and the outcome, and I live with that guilt. So you found yourself in a position where you had to suffer the consequences. But a lot of times people don't suffer the consequences. They could do something bad and get away with it, but they're still just afflicted with guilt throughout their life because they're running into that dissonance the whole time. And again, I think it goes back to what you were talking about with the introspective process. If you take that time and be brutally honest with yourself and approach yourself with that level of skepticism and be real with yourself, you'll realize a couple of things. Yes, there's going to be a part of yourself that wants to do a specific thing that may not be that great. But then there's going to be another part of yourself that doesn't want to do it because it is maybe against your morals or your values and something like that. Right. And so as you continue to go through this introspective process, you realize that there are going to be different parts of yourself wanting different things for different reasons. And it's almost like, again, that internal negotiation to see what. What is the deal? What is that Win, win. That we can achieve internally, that achieves an outcome that is survivable, that is doable, but at the same time, I can look in the mirror and respect the person looking back at me. That's not always easy to get to. It takes time. And a lot of times the process of introspection, people avoid it because it's painful, because we have to wrestle with realities that we don't want to accept.

Yeah, it's a lot easier to complain and blame and say, oh, well, the things are all messed up in my life because of this, this, this and that. And those things that they just listed have nothing to do with any of the choices that they've made. And I know there's people that would disagree with me, but I. I am one of these. I am one of those people that believes that that is a very poisonous way of thinking. And I'll tell you why. Because I believe that if we tell ourselves that we're not responsible, responsible for our actions, that, yeah, maybe in the short term, we can rid ourselves of some responsibility or guilt or take the burden off of us for some things that we've done that are, you know, wrong. Right? And we have. We have scapegoats or things to blame them on, right? But in the long run, if we're taking. If. If we're. We're kind of like outsourcing all of the things that we've done in our lives to things that are outside of us, I think in the reverse way that can also affect our ability to have success, because then it becomes. Comes, you're not doing anything. You're almost like you have no control over your life. So I think that's very dangerous. And as good as it might feel to be like that, it's actually very dangerous and will lead to a path of destruction, 100%.

And, Devin, when I think about this, when I think about your story and your journey and what you've gone through, I think through the lens of the podcast, when we talk about negotiation and conflict resolution, again, we always think about it in terms of us negotiating with other people. But you showed us how important it is for us to negotiate with ourselves. But even on a deeper level, you showed us the importance of having a respectful and honest relationship with ourselves, too. Because the conversation that we have with other people, they're going to really color the relationship that we have with those people for the long term. The internal conversations that we have with ourselves are going to color the relationship that we have with ourselves within ourselves in the long term. And then also that's going to radiate outward. It's going to have an impact on the way that we navigate the world and the way that we treat other people. So I think really what this is, it's just negotiating from the inside out.

I absolutely agree. That was very well said. And I think it's also noteworthy that when taking part in these internal negotiations to realize that we do have certain things. And, you know, I'm not a doctor or anything, but there's certain impulses and urges that we have to recognize as being from the ego or selfish or that are almost primal in nature. And succumbing to a primal nature is something that's very dangerous. And so for us to be the best version of ourselves and the most evolved version of ourselves, we have to essentially fight back against those things that we feel that we. We need to recognize. What's primal, you know, and things extreme greed, violence, you know, extreme and terrible violent urges, Anything like that. Those are primal thoughts, right? And greed and things like this. This is our. In my layman opinion, this is our old genetic self just trying to survive. Right? But we're conscious. We're more than that. So, you know, the more conscious we are, the better we will be equipped to have these internal negotiations, in my opinion.

I like your opinion. Your opinion is my opinion. I appreciate you. This is great. And so for people who want to reach out to you, learn more about you and possibly work with you with your public relations agency, can you tell them again where they can get in touch and how they can learn more?

Yeah, absolutely. You can reach me by email. Dev. That's Dev as in Frank, C as in Charlie-A as in Alpha and then O as in Omega.org. you can reach me on Instagram. Hedevan Leos. That's H e D e V a N L E O S. Twitter, same handle on LinkedIn. It's just D E V a N L E O S. You know, that's where you can find me. Feel free to reach out. Always looking to work with more people and dialogue.

I Appreciate you man. Thanks for coming on the show. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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