Developing emotional intelligence with Daniel Stover

Hey, everyone, and welcome to our Throwback episode. In our Throwback episodes, we are reintroducing you to some of our most popular episodes. This is great for new listeners who want to learn more about the work we've done in the past. And it's a great refresher if you've been a listener for a long time. Enjoy.

My name is Daniel Stover. I'm an executive coach for Integrated Leadership Systems. Senior leadership consultant is my title. So what that means at an individual level and at an organizational level, I get to serve my clients, helping them become more effective leaders, if you will, transformational leaders, largely through the lens of cognitive behavioral psychology and emotional intelligence. And the short version of the story to how I got here was having a lot of my own emotional reactivity to reconcile. So that goes back to how I was raised and some of the things I went through when I was growing up that impacted me as an adult. And I hit this place where I became very depressed and had a lot of anxiety. And in working through that, became very passionate about paying forward the emotional tools that I learned to save my life. But instead of becoming a therapist or a clinician, decided to become a coach who specializes in similar kind of tools without performing therapy, but helping business people's lives improve for the better, which actually, as research has shown, helps people lead more effectively.

That's fantastic. And yeah, you're doing a great job with it. And for listeners, Dan has a great TED Talk as well. So I was kind of following in your footsteps, doing a TED Talk. So, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story on the TED Talk. So everybody out there, I strongly recommend checking that one out.

Thanks. And make sure you check out Kwame's if you haven't seen it either.

I appreciate that. Earlier you mentioned the term transformational leaders. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, transformational leadership is the essence of what we do at Integrated Leadership Systems. So that's the organization I work for. It was started by a clinical psychologist named Steve Anderson back about 17, 18 years ago now. And transformational leadership is the ability as a leader of people, to help them grow and develop as people within your company. So this is beyond employee engagement, but engagement is a vast byproduct of transformational leadership, and we don't tend to think of it in that order. So saying it a different way, if I'm a transformational leader, I have this way about me that allows me to connect deeply with the people who are around me and take interest in them, both as a professional and as a person. In such a way that they grow and they change and they evolve as people.

Oh, that's fantastic. That's really cool. And I think that ties in really well with the topic of this conversation, which is trust. Before we get into the actual meat of the conversation, there was a really funny incident that happened between me and Dan when we first tried to record this interview. And I think it'll give the audience some really great context. It's almost like a case study for trust.

Yeah, this is really good. I'm glad we're going to talk about this.

Yeah. So how would you tell them about it? Tell them the story.

Sure. So the first time that we set up to do this podcast, we had arranged to connect by Skype, and Kwame has a really nice setup that he sent me instructions for, and the instruction was to log in with his guest account through Skype, and then he would link me there. So there's just no way to screw up on my end. You know, what account I should be on or what account Kwame should be on when he's looking to connect with me. Well, it had turned out I was sitting on Skype on his account, his guest account, waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting some more. And then I emailed him and said, hey, I'm on the call. Will you be connecting soon? And this is maybe 12, 15 minutes of hanging around, and waited a few more minutes and didn't hear back. So I disconnected the call, and I guess the best way to tell the story would be maybe just to tell my end and then call me. You take it from here. But I hung up on Skype and thought, here we are supposed to be talking about trust, and this guy blows me off.

Oh, man.

So why don't you take it from there and you tell your side of the story, and then we'll bring it all together.

Yeah, it was really funny because I know you're busy, and I know you're working really hard to build the business out there in Cali. And so when the time passed, because I know you're very punctual, I was like, oh, this isn't very Dan, like, because I. What happened was I added your personal Skype to my Skype, and so I was connecting with you and calling your personal Skype, while, of course, you were sitting on the. On the Skype account that I provided, like you should have been. I was like, well, Dan's busy. He probably has stuff to do. It's okay. Let me get working on some stuff, and then we'll just reschedule it's not a problem. And I just completely slipped my mind. I was like, I probably should send an email. After about an hour, I was like, let me send him an email saying, hey, Dan, we had it set up for 5:15 on my calendar. Probably just slipped through the cracks. No worries, let's reschedule. Then I see this, your email, in my inbox, sitting there like a time bomb, like, where are you, Kwame? And I was like, no, I messed this up. But it just goes to show, it's like everybody in this situation, at least when they were making the actions, thought they were doing the right thing. But from everybody's perspective, like, looking at the other person, it's really easy to jump to really damning conclusions about the other person's behavior and intent.

100%. And the fact that you have a negotiation podcast and brought me on as an emotional intelligence person, this example is so meaningful to me because I'm a practitioner of this and I take it very seriously. And I've been doing very intense work in emotional intelligence for over a decade. It's been 11 years now, and it still happens to me where I've already disclosed, you know, that snap judgment, that snap reaction of man, he blew me off. That was the instinctual response I had. Even though, you know, after a few minutes and the emotions subsides, like, of course, like, something happened and Kwame couldn't make it. Like, this isn't like Kwame either. But it's really funny to hear you. It sounds like, first blush, you gave me a lot more grace than I gave you. I'll own that.

I will admit I was pretty swamped at the time. So I was willing to admit defeat quickly so I could get some work done. I was like, ah, it's all good.

That's hilarious. Well, and funny enough, like, I had gone out of my way to make sure I was in a quiet place between meetings to take our call and all that. So it was like a little bit of a setup for me to get to a place to have the podcast talk. And that's probably what drove my immediate reaction, was just a little extra work. Aha.

See, and this is a really great example of the fundamental attribution bias. This is me putting on my psychological nerd glasses for a moment. So with the fundamental attribution bias, what happens is people tend to assume the best about their behavior, and if they act poorly as a result of the circumstances, but if somebody else acts poorly, it is because of who they are. It's a trait that's inside of them, that is permeating the entirety of their existence. So for example, if I'm on the highway and I'm driving 90 miles per hour, I'm driving that way because I'm late. Sorry everybody. This is not typically like me, but I'm late. But if I'm driving the speed limit and somebody zips past me at 90 miles per hour, I look at that person and I'm like, you're a maniac. What's wrong with you? It's a testament to your level of emotional intelligence for you to recognize. Like, first there was the snap judgment that was a bit emotional. Then you said, okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. And I think having that type of mentality, that ability to recognize that emotion and then readjust, I think that's powerful for any type of interaction. But also especially for a negotiation when it's so easy to lose yourself in these difficult conversations. We are now offering conflict management and negotiation workshops for companies. If you like the content here and you think your team would benefit from getting a cut customized seminar, then all you need to do is email me or go to the American Negotiation Institute's website to learn more. And now back to the show.

I couldn't agree with you more. And I think where it directly applies is that when we have that snap judgment, that immediate visceral reaction that you kind of can't help, and you do have that fundamental attribution error which you described very well. That tendency we have to assume the best in ourselves and judge ourselves by our behavior, but assume other people's behavior is about their character, where that ties into negotiation. As I was thinking about our talk today, is really this. When we are in a negotiation or when we're trying to mediate conflict, it's critically important that we don't slip into a win lose mentality. Right. I'm sure you've talked about that on your podcast so many times. And as an emotional intelligence person, I find that it's very easy to slip into win lose mentality when our emotions surge like that. And the important thing to know is we can get them back and move back into a win win mentality. But it takes a very deliberate self awareness effort to catch your own ebbs and flows in and out of that win win mentality or in and out of win lose mentality when you're trying to negotiate.

Absolutely. And the thing that I really liked about what you said is that these are visceral emotional reactions that to a certain degree we can't help. They're going to happen regardless, no matter how well we practice. So a lot of times people judge themselves harshly by saying to themselves, I shouldn't feel this way. There's something wrong with me for feeling this angry or this sad or this emotional in this conversation. And that feeling of judgment makes the emotion worse. But what you're saying is this happens to everybody. So it's not about making sure that the emotions don't happen, it's about being able to recognize it, admit that it's there, accept it and then adjust.

Yes. And the risk if you don't accept it and move forward from there is emotional suppression. So say, for example, you're in that negotiation scenario, you're in the middle of conflict. And just as you nicely put, all of a sudden I have a snap judgment, I don't want to deal with it because it's shameful or socially inappropriate or I'm shooting myself out of it, I'll push it down. And whatever you push down tends to control how you operate. So it's like the more you put it away, the more you try to put it in the dark, the more power it has over you. So kind of to put it into this overly simplistic context, if you have a snap reaction to somebody and you're all of a sudden in a win lose mentality and you try to suppress and not take ownership of that snap judgment and reactionary feeling you have, you're going to stay there. It's just going to own you, most likely. So the effort that I help people with and have seen many, many people make change around is be able to accept it and then quickly pivot out of it. So by owning it and understanding what's happening to you and not shaming yourself or judging yourself for having that initial reaction, you actually loosen up and can pivot your way back out of that negative emotional experience into a more enlightened space, if you will, of just simply going back to Mutual Benefit.

That's brilliant. I love it. And it's so counterintuitive because we think that what we need to do is when we experience this, we need to shut it down immediately. But it almost harkens back to the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.

We're a big fan of that.

This is a must read for anybody who considers themselves to be a human. So that's my recommendation for everybody. Check out that book. It's really helpful. So just a brief context on the book. Viktor Frankl was a psychiatrist Psychologist or psychiatrist. I forget precisely his title, but it was during Holocaust time and he was a Jew, and so he was in the concentration camps. He lost his entire family and had to see and live through some unspeakable things. And what he says is the key to getting through suffering and moving through it as healthily as you can is by finding purpose in your suffering, finding meaning in your suffering. And one of the things that he talks about in that book is the concept of logotherapy. And it's a counterintuitive approach to solving psychological problems and emotional problems, where instead of trying to suppress that thing that you're feeling, you lean into it, and almost to the point of over exaggeration. So he talks about a patient that he had who had a issue with perspiration. So he would try to. In social situations, he would start to perspire profusely and it would be embarrassing. So he would try to stop. And that pressure that he was putting on himself to stop would make him perspire more. And so the solution came when Dr. Frankel suggested that next time he goes into a social situation that creates that anxiety, he actually intentionally tries to sweat more. And that had the surprising effect of having him feel less anxiety and sweat less. And so similarly, that's what we're saying here. If you lean into that emotion and accept it as a natural part of your existence, that allows you to control it and make that pivot into productive dialogue.

Nicely said, Kwame. You've really done your homework on psychology, my friend.

Thank you. Hey, I mean, we went to the same great school. I can't take all the credit.

One thing I want to touch on there, in talking about the meaning of the suffering is that fun facts just about me, those words that Viktor Frankl wrote about making meaning of suffering in the whole life perspective actually put words to my own story. That book was that helpful to me to really understand what my own life is really about. Instead of chasing happiness, it's actually about creating meaning and attributing meaning to what I've been through that maybe I wish I wouldn't have been through. And then in the more practical sense related to this podcast, meaning and suffering and being able to bear with what is that you wish maybe you weren't can be just moments in time. You found yourself sideways in a conversation and you really wish you weren't sideways. Like seeing red with anger or at a complete loss for words, Finding yourself feeling utterly betrayed in maybe just a work context, like these very strong negative experiences that we have Day to day, those are great bits of data about what triggers you. And if you go into that, as it sounds like maybe you've done on a personal level even, you go into that and explore it and you realize what makes you tick and what's important to you and what you value and how you respond to the world around you both effectively and what you respond to around you ineffectively. And if it does come back down to self awareness like that and how you manage it, then it's really good to know both sides of the story about yourself. But it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do that and I think to read that book for any of you that haven't, because you will see the courage that Viktor Frankl had in dealing with both his circumstances and his reaction to his circumstances. But you wonderfully put again on your end, Kwame.

Thank you. And I agree 100% with you there about the courage because it's not easy to do this. It's uncomfortable having to explore those deep dark regions of your heart and mind. It's scary. Brene Brown did a great job of outlining this in her book, Daring greatly talking about vulnerability. And I think this is also something that we should consider when we're thinking about the emotions in other people because a lot of times we try and chastise other people for their emotional behavior, for feeling the way that they feel and we try to avoid it or suppress it in them. And in reality, oftentimes that especially pain, pain or fear or sadness, those are incredible indicators of something that really matters to people, like you said. And so just like we need to take the time to investigate those emotions within ourselves, we need to take the time to investigate those emotions in other people.

So we agree on basically everything. So we might need to find something to disagree on just to make this interesting for some of the listeners. So I'm going to play devil's advocate just for fun, if I may.

Yes, please.

I think a lot of people would equate Brene Brown to the word vulnerability, right? That's almost an equal sign given what she's done for that word and the good she's done for it. But playing devil's advocate. So you're telling me vulnerability has a place in negotiation, even on competing sides?

Absolutely, to a certain extent. Because not all negotiations are created equally. If we are colleagues in an organization working on a project together, our fates are aligned in many ways. So it's easier for me and makes more strategic sense for me to be more vulnerable in those situations. Now, if I put back on my lawyer hat. There are certain circumstances where it is a distributive negotiation where we can create value to a certain extent, but eventually we do need to divide the pie. And so that's going to be one of those situations where you have the classic lawyer answer of it depends. It depends. But I think in those situations where the negotiation is distributive and there is an almost unavoidable win lose type of positioning for the discussion, you can still use vulnerability to strengthen the relationship between the parties without sacrificing substance for the party that you're representing or yourself.

Yeah, well said. I think there's two elements in that that relate to my work and I can chime in on. And one is conscientiousness, which you brought up when we were preparing for this talk and might be good to bring up. And being vulnerable includes seeking to understand if you're on opposing sides, what the other side needs, what they want, what will make them whole, what the root of their desire is, what the root of their need or want is. And I think that's so important because we know, generally speaking, we operate irrationally a lot of the time. I think a lot of the studies on our rational versus irrational behavior would put us operating irrationally. The higher percentage of our time throughout the day. And the second piece with vulnerability, you spoke to as well, and that's being vulnerable with yourself and being vulnerable with the other party, how you see it. And you may have a reasonable conscientious angle on viewing things that brings the other person closer to you. And that would just be my way of maybe reflecting back or saying the same thing with slightly different words.

I love it. That's really great. And when it comes to conscientiousness, it's something that's difficult. It's not intuitive. Well, at least for most people, it seems like it is not intuitive. So is this a skill that can be learned? And if it is, what do you think that our listeners could do to improve this skill within themselves?

That's a great question. So you'd get different answers depending on if you believe conscientiousness is embedded in personality, which some would say it is. So conscientiousness is literally a category on the big five personality trait assessment. So personality, by most definition is supposed to be fixed. It either is or isn't right, even though it's on a spectrum. Like conscientiousness in a personality scale falls along a spectrum. So high to low conscientiousness. But Being in the emotional intelligence space, conscientiousness is a part of eq. Conscientious means being careful, being vigilant about doing tasks well, about wanting to do right by other people, wanting to meet other people's needs as much as your own. That has a lot of roots in emotional intelligence. So the line gets a little blurry on how many people would say, is it learnable, teachable, or is it just fixed? My opinion from the past 6 years of doing this work professionally in 10 years doing the work self applied, conscientiousness or EQ absolutely is something that you can learn. And think of it this way. We all have a different and diverse group of people we've grown up around, meaning literally inside the home, extended family and our social circles. And how those people interacted with us at a young age and how they interacted with each other in front of us at a young age is predictive of how skilled we'll be in relationships later on in life. We basically recreate or model those relationships that were around us when we were children. There's almost a desire to go into a nature nurture conversation here, but I don't think that's the point. The point is how skilled we are usually goes back to when we were young. And the effort then becomes to relearn how to connect with people, relearn how to relate to people, relearn how to communicate with people in a way that's more conscientious of their thoughts, their feelings and their positions on things which may be radically different than how you grew up. So if you grew up in a real closed minded family, naturally you're going to have a harder time seeing other people's positions and it's not necessarily your fault, but you have a choice. Is this something I want to latch onto and make changes around and working with the hundreds and hundreds of executives that I have? Most people end up thinking that's the right choice because as you would expect, people that choose not to make that effort and become more conscientious, more emotionally intelligent, if it was inherently a little low, see too many problems in their teams, too many problems in their relationships personally, and see things like low engagement, high turnover, low sales numbers, you know, it all starts to add up since most of what we do is produced through people and production from people is very much related to how they're treated by the people they spend the most time with, I.e. their supervisor or boss or company leadership. So that's the long winded answer of saying my opinion is it's absolutely learnable. But the watershed moment is making that choice to become more skilled wherever you find yourself not being so conscientious.

That was a phenomenal response.

Thank you.

Good. And conscientiousness isn't something that I've had the opportunity to spend much time studying myself, so that was personally helpful for me as well. One of the things that I'd add to that is that I think really, whether or not it's learnable or just innate really comes down to your mindset. Harkening back to the work from Carol Dweck, check out her book on mindset. It's really good. So just a quick synopsis. She talks about. You could either have a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. If you have a fixed mindset, you think your level of success is essentially predetermined. You have talent or you don't. You're either smart or you're not. You're either conscientious or you're not. And if you believe that, then you're going to be stuck wherever you happen to be. But if you have a growth mindset, you believe that these things can be changed through the consistent application of practice. What she's found in her studies is not that even in things that seem pretty fixed, like most people think that intelligence is something that you're kind of born with, but just by tweaking the way that people think about themselves, changing them from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset, and even children as young as, like sixth grade, she was able to see academic improvement, not because she was giving them study skills or anything, but simply by changing the way that they think about their ability to improve. So for the listeners out there, the point is, you can change if you want to change.

Absolutely. And, you know, conscientious is its own thing. But I put a precedent on emotional intelligence. And the reason being is that at the end of the day, work products matter, and what we do for a living matters, but little matters more than the relationships we have with others. You can be the best at what you do and very lonely at the same time. And when you think about these things, I feel very convicted to say, be sure to think about how you want to grow in terms of how you connect to and relate to others, which goes down. It kind of deviates from conscientiousness and goes right into emotional intelligence. My goal consistently for people is to be the best at what they do, but also have really healthy, wonderful relationships with the people around them in their work. Life and in their personal life.

I love this. This is really great. And see, this is one of those conversations where it feels like no time has passed at all. So thank you for this. This was fun.

Thank you.

Oh, no. My pleasure. Before you go, I wanted to see if you could kind of give our audience an action item where they say, okay, Dan, I am sold. I want to improve my emotional intelligence. What is something that they can do today to improve?

All right, so here's the homework assignment. This is core work. So if you decide by listening to this you want to improve your emotional intelligence, I'd like you to take a moment tonight, right away. Or if you're listening to this in the morning, this afternoon, if you're listening to it late at night, maybe first thing in the morning. But I want you to take 5 minutes, 10 if you can tolerate it, 20 if you want to be a rock star. So take that amount of time and turn off everything, Seclude yourself from everyone and just sit in quiet, 5, 10, 20 minutes and breathe and see what comes up. We become the most aware of ourselves in stillness, and we don't afford ourselves the opportunity to be still very often because of the technological interconnectedness we have and how phone and app dependent we've naturally and understandably become. And not only that, it can be very terrifying to sit alone with your own thoughts and feelings, but it starts there. The bonus homework to add to that would be, when you're done, stop at the store, buy a journal you like, have a pen you like to write with, and write. Write your thoughts, write your feelings, write your perspective, challenge your thoughts, challenge your feelings, challenge your perspective, and you will have done a great deal of the most important intelligence work, emotional intelligence work you can do.

This is brilliant. This is something that I'm going to do as well. I really appreciate that. Thank you.

You're welcome. I can't wait to hear how it goes.

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