Differentiating Yourself: Tim Castle's Secrets to Human-Centered Negotiation Excellence

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Tim, thanks for joining us today.

Thank you so much, my man. It's a privilege and an honor and I'm really excited to be here.

Hey, likewise. I appreciate you accepting the invite. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm an author of the Art of Negotiation, a book that kind of went out into the world and did more than I expected. I'm also an entrepreneur and I work and run tech businesses and basically expand them into regions that. And try to beat expectations. Right? Essentially, that's what we're doing in business. We're trying to beat and overachieve expectations. And I'd say that's what I do with my coaching clients. That's what I do in my trainings, and that's what I do with people that I interact with on a daily basis. I try to move the needle on my interactions.

I love it. And so again, listeners, this is. This is really funny. You know how it goes. All of my friends are super humble, so I always got to help them with some shout outs here. So we have the exceptional book, the Art of Negotiation, but you also have on courses and training that you do too. So make sure you shout that out too.

Okay. Thank you for the point. Got it.

Yeah. So we. I'm pumped about this. I'm pumped about this because the. The work that you do is monumental. It's really important and you've helped a lot of people and you are one of the brave souls who has ventured into writing a second book. I know the second book is coming out, which is going to be the topic of this podcast. So I'm excited to get into this. And so I think a fun place to start would be asking this question. You already have a really great book out on the market with a fantastic name. Kudos on that. The Art of Negotiation. Why write a second one?

Well, part of it was like the journey on the first book was to really show people what was possible in negotiations and expand their mindset and their confidence around negotiation and just do something for the topic of negotiation because I felt there was a gap and working in negotiation for a decade, you see so many techniques and strategies. You see so many people coming into negotiations with what they believe negotiation should be and should look like, based on the movies, based on their friends, based on business people that they've been associated with. And it just kind of. I Wanted to expand people's mindset just to the wealth of possibilities in everyday negotiations of how they can be creating more advantageous situations for themselves and influence people in general through their communication skills. Because this is pretty much the number one skill that you can acquire, the ability to influence, persuade, and negotiate. It comes under the bracket of negotiation. But I really think it's about influence, persuasion, self discipline, self respect, self worth, self belief. It really is that bucket. And so when you have that and you can imagine that you can go and create new situations that benefit both the other party and yourself, it transforms your life. And so the next decade of my work, I was in trainings. I was, you know, my career changed as well. And you start to be in different situations, different cultural negotiations, different regions that you're expanding. Things changed. And I kept hearing a different thing. And obviously I did my own research, and this pulled me more closer to the human, right? Closer to what we are, humans. This is. Goes back to my roots, which are in psychology, and the fact that this is about human behavior. And so to just kind of set this up is I've come up with the Human Approach to Negotiation. And that is an acronym.

Let's. Let's get into it, man. I'm excited. Let's lay out the acronym.

So the acronym is here. Unlock, Move, Align a Network. And really the starting point for all of this is here. You've got to make the other side, the other party, feel heard. Because everything we're doing with this is to work with human behavior, not against it. Everything we're doing here is to play into the psychology behind the other person and to bring them closer. So with here, what we're doing is we're seeking to understand and we're not seeking to respond. And I think that's a massive mistake. And it's something that we can all get better at is when we're sitting and we're listening to someone, we're not really hearing them. They're not feeling heard. It's something that you feel the hearing part of it. And you hear by asking the right questions. Because if you're asking the right questions, it shows, it demonstrates through your actions that you've heard them. And the other person can feel that. They feel it through your body language, right? You don't hear through listening. You hear through your body language. Emotional, it's your body language. And you're showing all of these. These ways. And actually, I start to disagree with some of the things that are in the negotiation work that's out there already. Around micro gestures, active listening. When you're interrupting someone so much that you're like, aha, yeah, I got you. You're trying to actively listen because you think you should be doing that. And sometimes it comes across as disingenuous. It interrupts their flow. And what the problem with that is, we are automatically jumping in and finishing people's sentences. And that just says to someone, hey, I know better than you, or hurry up, hurry up, I need to get on with this. And it's sort of in unconsciously, it's signaling that, that to someone you're not necessarily saying it. You think that you're being like, okay, we get each other, we're on the same page. I know what you're going to say, but actually it's like, no, no, I want you to hurry up, I've got you. I know where you're going with this. And it's the assumption, right? You've made an assumption about what the other party's going to say about their motivations, about their intentions. And again, you're not letting the other side feel heard. So giving that as the first step sets you up so much differently and sets the negotiation up. And I think this is where you start down the right path. Because when we're negotiating with different individuals, they have different experiences, they have different capabilities in terms of their negotiation skills and they have different intentions, right? And so they can be coming into it in a very different fashion, more of a distributive fashion, where they're just looking to take as much share as possible and they have the belief that you're also looking to do the same. So straight away, there's almost a conflict or a very difficult conversation or premise within the negotiation. But with you doing this, you'll bring here into it, it reduces that resistance and starts the process to bring them closer to you.

This is what we call in the podcasting world a very strong start. Tim, this is a very strong start. I love this. I've got a quick story for you. So I was at this keynote and.

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Story, this ads for you and for the rest of you, I'll see you in premium. So many things to explore here and I'm going to shout this one out because I want to come back to it. But listeners, I hope you heard this because Tim said with this human centered approach approach to negotiation, what you're doing is you're playing into the psychology of humanity but not working against it. And I think so many times what we end up doing is we operate in these negotiations in the world that we wish we lived in, not the world we actually live in without giving fair consideration to the psychology that's behind that. So I'm going to bookmark that. We're going to come back to this because we started off really strong. We're talking about hearing too, because a lot of times in negotiation, I think if people were to just hear the acronym that you came up with for human, where H is for here, they're probably thinking, yes, I need them to hear me, but we're thinking about it from the other perspective. No, they need to feel heard. And I love what you said about active listening because you're absolutely right. It's almost become like a. If you're creating a bad joke for a negotiation professional. Oh, what would you, what would a negotiator tell you to do? Ask better questions and actively listen. And you're right because people hear active listening so many times that they shifted from actual active listening to acting like you're listening. Okay, this is what it looks like when you're listening. Right. And you're right because a lot of times it is. We use those same nonverbal encouragers to show that we're listening, but really subconsciously what we're doing is we're interrupting and getting them to hurry up. And what I found, especially when I'm negotiating with extroverts, the louder the.

Mm.

Yeah.

Uh huh.

Oh, okay. So this is them saying, shut up, it's my turn to speak. So you're, you're hitting on a lot of really important things here.

That's it, Right? It sends a trigger in inside that mind and they're like, yeah, that's exactly what they're thinking. And then they're not listening to you. Right. And it's also about the law of reciprocity. Right. You're wanting to set this up in a Way where you're almost giving first, right? You're giving through your ability to hear and help them feel heard. And then you're also setting the bar high for what you expect in the relationship going forward. And so the standard is being raised as to how we're going to conduct this negotiation through here.

Bingo. Right. Because I like to think about it through the lens of conversational leadership. A lot of times people say to me, well, Kwame, what do I do to get somebody to hear me? It's important for me to listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the problem is they're not hearing me. And we have to recognize that if we are the leaders in this negotiation, in terms of not some kind of manipulative, Machiavellian, puppeteer type of leader here, if we're just showing people how to negotiate effectively. When somebody isn't hearing me, what I say to myself is, oh, okay, you don't know how to listen. This is a skill. Let me show you how to listen. I'm going to. I'm going to shut up for a bit, and I'm going to demonstrate what effective listening is. And that's the tool that I use to get people to be willing to hear me. I need to take the first step. I have to be that leader and listen effectively. And then when they feel heard, then they will listen to me. Because listening is often reciprocal in nature.

That's super powerful. That's super powerful. That's exactly the solution. And it's obviously the pill that the person doesn't want to take. They don't want to. They don't want to take that because they haven't been doing it. If they did, they would have done it, and they would have got the result.

Bingo. And I think that's one of the most frustrating and yet empowering things about negotiation. Because a lot of times the bad behavior we see on the other side, sometimes we might have created the atmosphere that created that behavior. And sometimes it takes us to do the right thing in order to change the dynamic. But we have that still, that childlike mentality, they did it first. I'm mad at them. They need to fix the problem. But if we're truly leading the conversation and we're good negotiators, we have to recognize that it's our responsibility to start taking the right steps and doing the right things. And then sometimes that's all it takes to get the conversation right back on track.

That's so. So it. That is so it. Because, yeah, this is. This is about giving you the skills and the structure to be able to guide the negotiation. So that takes into account the context and like you said, the setup and all of the things that you. Your responsibility in the negotiation for, the things that aren't set for, the ways that you've behaved so that you can guide, no matter what the experience level of the other party, no matter what is in their current state, their mindset, no matter what their intentions are, you can guide it through these steps to bring the human out and to play into the fact that we've got human behavior running this. So let's make it work for us. And because you're hearing them and because they're calling out emotional words, these are the pain points that you want to dig into. And so then we transition into unlock. And this is the stage that everybody misses or that I think this is really what I wanted to communicate that started me off thinking about this model or this approach. It was the fact that people, once they feel heard, and the people who are negotiating go, yeah, they felt hurt, yeah, right now it's my turn to tell you what I want out of this deal. Because you felt heard. So now we got to do it. And they miss unlock. And unlock is when you bring the walls down. You neutralize the mindset. The walls come down and you show them critically. Like, the action that you need to do is you need to show them how they get what they want through you. And so by digging into that pain and their current state of the things that they need to change, and then getting them to imagine their better future, the things that they want, and to really talk about that. Them, not you, them talking about it in their own words, to imagine what it would be like in the future when they're doing what they want. That happens. You. You inspire them with possibility. And that links back to my first book, which is what I was trying to get people to understand is the possibility that is there, that wasn't currently on the table, but through this, you created it. And so you've neutralized the mind. You've unlocked them through the heart, not the head. So when we unlock, it comes through the heart. We're inspiring from that place of possibility. And so you can then start to plant seeds, right? Your unique differentiators, your holistic differentiators, your comparative. You can start to sprinkle some of your own in there, your own parts, but only when it links to how they get what they want through you. And if you don't have that link, it's just you telling them what you want, which Then puts the walls back up.

So, Tim, my wife bought us a dart board for the basement, which as a lawyer, I just saw liability everywhere. I was terrified. These things are sharp and our kids are not that coordinated yet. And the other day I came down and I saw this dart sticking in the wall like six inches above the dart board. And I think about that as it relates to negotiation, because a lot of times we start throwing these persuasive darts and we have no idea what the target is. We haven't even taken the time to listen and hear what it is they care about. And so we have all these solutions, all these points that we might want to make, and we have no ide idea if we're landing because we haven't taken the time to aim. And that's what I think about when I hear this unlock principle, because first you have to have them paint that picture for you, and then you can provide that information. Now you can make your case. But you're so right, Tim. People miss this unlocking phase and they're missing out in extreme value, and not just in terms of finances, but also in depth of relationship, too.

Oh, massive. I mean, this is where you. Where you differentiate yourself from every other negotiator that's been out there, Every other negotiation situation that they've been out there, because they're not expecting you to take the time to unlock with them. And they're also not expecting you to create the space for them to hear themselves convince themselves of what they want in doing this. They're showing themselves why they need to change, why they need to work through the. The pain of this negotiation, the challenge, the hurdles, together with you. Because together you can create more. Together you can create. If you're competing, are we going to be able to create more value? No, we're leading the value that we're leaving the value that could have been created and putting it aside and saying, no, we're just going to get what we can get by both kind of going in as hard as we can on certain points of interest and we'll get where we get to. And so that's the big thing here, is the fact that you're differentiating yourself as a skilled negotiator in this. And in doing that, you're showing them this is going to be different. This is how it should be done. This is the standard. And through that, I mean, this links to the. To the kind of point that underpins the whole model, which is network. You're building a network that's respected, that's global that actually is going to start referring you business because they understand and enjoy the conduct of how you negotiate. Of course you're going to negotiate. You're going to negotiate well. But that doesn't mean people don't want to do business with good negotiators.

Bingo. You're so right. And I really want to focus in on this point that you made. They aren't expecting this. They aren't expecting this approach because a lot of times if maybe they haven't been trained, maybe they haven't read your books, Tim. Maybe they don't know.

Right.

So they might not feel comfortable in the process. And a lot of times when you have that, you have fear or maybe you've been burned in the past so you have your guard up. You think about this in a positional, strictly distributive type of way where it's more of an aggressive haggling interaction than a meaningful collaborative negotiation. And we can, at the beginning, we can say, hey, this is my approach to negotiation. Okay, whatever, I don't care.

Right.

But if you show them that this is your approach to negotiation, that's different. And I want to go into this because this is really fascinating because I'm. You get this question a lot. If I'm going up against a tough negotiator and they are super distributive in their approach, very positional aggressive, and they don't care about this human centered approach. How do I negotiate while still staying true to my values and trying as much as possible to use this human centered approach without getting steamrolled by the other side?

And I think that's the word you use there is perfect because I use it like a bulldozer analogy. Right. They're a bulldozer. And this is what it's used. They've. They've what? It's probably worked for them 70 to 80% of the time. But the, the value that they're missing out on is a. The value they could have created if they'd have gone through the human centered approach on all of that 70%. So it would have expanded the pie and then also the 30 and also the detrimental effect to their relationships and their network. And the fact is, is if you are a bulldozer or a steamroller or a hard nose type negotiator, people see you coming a mile off. So they know how you're going to beh in the negotiation. Therefore they come in completely prepared, ready for that. Yeah. They're going to use anger to try and manipulate Me hard emotions, they're going to play on my biggest fears to try and get me to concede and to give in and to, and, and when you know that that's the setup, you come in with that awareness and this links back to your own self awareness so you aren't flustered. How again you're going to react differently anyway because you're a skilled expert negotiator. So yes, it's not, it's not enjoyable to be in the room with a hard line steamroller type negotiator, but it isn't, doesn't mean that they're not revealing information left, right and center because a, their strategy won't work on you because it's one strategy approach. It's not multi dimensional I. E. When it's distributed and the way I think about it is like this is the pie and you're just, just going after the biggest share and it's price, it's whatever levers we can move when really, and you will definitely know this as a lawyer in the background is the fact that we're really negotiating risk. Legal has way more sway in negotiations than the actual price. It's about negotiating risk. Yeah. Okay, cool. You want those terms, that's fine. It's going to come at a different cost. We negotiate more risk. This happens, right? So those levers that they want can get pulled, but they're going to do things in other directions. And when you can calmly articulate that it, it frustrates them. So you have to be prepared for the fact that when you're not doing the game that they're playing, you're going, they're going to try harder and lean into it even harder. They're going to go and, and bring in dirty tactics essentially to, to do that because it's playing on ego. And when we understand that, we go, well, is that the road we even want to travel down? Is that the road we want to even go down? Because that road by you becoming an expert negotiator, in one sense, yes, it can happen where they, they will flip and they'll, they'll push you and they'll push you and they'll push you and they see this guy. No, they're just too good. They're not going anywhere. And therefore it does generate some level of respect. But in the completely narcissistic approach, no, they were all out to try to do everything to, to, to, to, to stop the deal or to, to make it very painful for you in the future. Everything from spreading rumors to whatever, whatever it is, right? They're going to try because you've infuriated them and made them look, you've. You've got them off their strategy, right? And this is work 70% of their time in their career. And that's what they're used to getting. So if you know that and you know that there's a risk that. Do you want to be around that energy? Do you want to even have where that's going to take you? Because you're able to use what they're putting out as a weapon against that? I would say probably not, because I don't have time to carry around. I don't know how about the importance of this negotiation, but I don't have time to have a battle with someone that. Do I need, even need that battle, right. Just because that's what they're going to do because that's the human that they are, or do I want to think about it again through the lens of the human approach? And if we're looking back at psychology and we're leaning on that as the complete underpinning of human behavior and how we know, I believe that if you are able to come at it through that lens and you're able to get them to form respect around your approach through you being so differentiated from, again, this human approach will still differentiate you from the 70% that accepted the deals that they used to. So you're still in a different category. But I like to think that we raise people up with our expectations, right? If we go in there and we expect them to play dirty and to be deceptive and to use, they may end up doing that because that's coming from us, right? We're pushing that out there. When I expect you to have a higher standard, when I inspect you to have integrity, even though it's not your norm, I can actually influence you to raise your own standard on this occasion. And I can show you a new way by you thinking that you're showing yourself a new way. But actually it was just the expectation and the standard that I had for this for you to be better, for you to be better and for you. It's not that I'm not naive and, and I think that you're not going to try these tricks on me. It's the fact that where you're playing on the psychology behind it as well. For them to want to impress you, for them to want to do the things that you expect of them and for them to show you, but really show them that they can do this, because if if they think that they can't do it, they're going to rise to that challenge and almost pull it, pull themselves up, because that's the expectation. So again, I think it's not about necessarily being fearful of which route to take. It's about going back to who do you want to be in the room? Right. Because if we start moving away from what we believe and the way that we want to operate, we're in no man's land and then we're starting to kind of do things and deviate from what actually we know to be our truth and our identity and have respect for ourselves. Because the thing I have learned over the last decade is that if you want to be in a room with hard negotiators like this, you need to have self confidence, you need to have self belief, you need to have self respect. And that comes from doing what you say you're going to do to yourself. Doesn't matter what's happening out there, it comes from within. And therefore if you keep in integrity with yourself, that is the highest form of self respect. And when we have self respect for ourselves, what do we get in return? Because we're putting it out there. I respect myself and through my actions and my words and my, my ways of being, I'm raising the expectation. And so I would say sticking with what you believe to be true and operating in the sense to how you want to operate is the closest you can get. Because then you're going to make the right decisions for you. And remember, you don't have to travel down that road. You don't have to do these deals. So it's, it's, it's not getting caught up in where they will quite quickly take you, they will quite quickly trigger you and try to take you where they want to put you, which is in a place of fear. And so that, that's why I'm saying if you, if you deviate from what we know to be true and working with human behavior, not against it, psychology, these principles, if you deviate from that, I do think there's a certain risk there. One, because this person can take it further than you can take it in terms of the bad side of things and they can also put you in a place that they actually feel more comfortable and where they want you because then they can start to manipulate you. And because you've, you've de. Centered from your what you believe, you have got some sort of gap there. And we need to stay centralized here and be solid. And that, that's where you're impenetrable from your own belief, your own respect, your own self awareness. And from there we've, we've got everything.

Wow, listeners, first of all, I have to, I have to apologize because I know I try to keep these, these around like 30 minutes, but I am going to go with in on this response. There's so much good stuff here.

Tim.

I was, I was like.

We'Re going.

To have to, we're going to have to land the plane here soon and then you just drop all these gems. I'm so excited to get into this. So this is, this is so important for people to remember because when we are having these difficult conversations, we understand we're going to have to adjust our approach somewhat based on the person who's in front of us, but we adjust more on the margins than in the corner. Core is what I would say because the core will stay the same. But what you're recognizing is if you're dealing with somebody who is a bulldozer, who's a bully, who is on the narcissistic side or high conflict side, like you said, I love the way you said it. It's not going to be enjoyable, but the approach is still relatively simple, right? Because you're dealing with somebody who's really one dimensional. And when you think about this in difficult conversations and negotiations, I think it's really helpful to think about it through the lens of, of sports. Think about athletes who use trash talk, who say mean and offensive things. The reason they do that is because you get all mad and change your game and play worse. And at the end of the day, if you're talking, if you're negotiating with somebody who's tough like this, just know they have infinitely more experience doing this than you do. And so if you want to be mean and nasty and tough to somebody who is mean and nasty and tough, they will go so much further and you will not recognize yourself at the end of the process. And so really you, the, the, the human approach, the acronym, it still stays the same. You just have to be more resolute in the process because you're going to fail in these conversations because you allow them to get under your skin and then you make bad decisions based on fear or pressure or something like that. And so if you can stay strong, have that self belief, that confidence and root that in integrity and still stay true to your, your values as a negotiator, that's how you push through it. And I love the fork in the road that you put because you said In a lot of cases, you'll have this conversation with somebody and they're going to be mean and nasty. And you stay firm. You don't make a mistake under pressure. You show that you're not rattled and then it earns their respect. They say, well, plan A isn't going to work against this person. I'm going to be less nasty now. I can get that done. And I'm sure both of us have experienced that. And then the other side is, okay, they're a narcissist or high conflict. Now they just get, they just go to war. I would prefer not to go to war. But you've identified yourself as an enemy combatant. And I know that I need to protect myself. And you've shown yourself to be not somebody that I want to work with. And we have to remember that negotiation is an information gathering game. And I'm not just collecting information about the data related to the deals. I'm collecting data on you as a negotiator and a potential business partner. And a lot of times people show us through the way that they negotiate that they are not the one that we want to be partnering with going forward.

It's that long term piece that's completely missed, right? You may have to do it for that exact moment, but you're not going to keep repeat business. You're not going to form that partnership. It's the long term part that's. Which is. Which is what in 2023 is the piece that's missed when we're talking about entrepreneurial negotiation. When we talk it's entrepreneurial and I know we've got to wrap this up, but just one last point on this negotiation, because it's so right now and it's topical, is the fact that people, they come in and they need to win now and it's urgent and because that they're putting their own needs forward first and they're missing out on the long term relationship, which is actually where the benefits.

Brilliant. Oh, this is so good. Tim, I don't know if you've thought about this, but, bro, you should consider writing a book.

The book will come out and I think this is. It comes from my heart, but it also comes from tons of research and thinking and seeing this in the field and thinking about what's missing and the fact that if we can tie this all together here through the human approach, where humans, you can apply this across cultural lenses, across international waters as such, and you can do business in any. I want to give you the skills to have that flexibility from where you are to create that, to be flexible in this, in yourself, to know what's right for each situation so that you're highly skilled, so that you can do what's right for each situation, to bring it through and you can guide that negotiation because you're right. It comes down to mindset as one part, but I also think part of it is partly almost spiritual in the sense that it connects back through you into your self awareness and you need to draw that through and that's what you need to develop. You need to develop yourself internally to be able to negotiate at a high level.

I love it. Tim, this was brilliant. So excited for you. So excited to share this platform with you and promote your work and just give one last shout out for the book and let the listeners know how they can get in touch.

Let's do it. Thank you so much, Kwame. This has been a blast. Like the Art of Negotiation is the book. It's available on Amazon, in Barnes and Noble, in all the major bookstores where you'd expect books to be. I think the Human Approach to Expert Negotiation, Fingers Crossed, will be out at the end of whenever this year. And the fact is, is that negotiation as a skill, as something that you can build in terms of human interaction, in terms of that interaction piece, is the number one skill that you need to be learning now. It's the difference when we talk about AI and we talk about all this change, this is what's going to set you apart because there's no longer room to be mediocre in your career in business. That's what the gap that's going to close. So when you start building the ability to communicate, the ability to persuade and influence, that's going to set you apart in a completely different way. But it's also going to allow all of these advantages to come into your life so that you're not performing at a mediocre level, you're up in the outstanding level, you're outperforming. And that really is what my work is all about. And so there's trainings, there's online courses. If you go to Tim, jscastle.com I have the school of Success, which is what I've been building, where there's online courses that you can take and you can level up. And then of course, if you want a masterclass or a training do, reach out.

I mean, listen, if you, if you want a masterclass, I think most listeners already got it through this podcast. And if you want to take it to the Next level. Check out the books, check out the courses. Tim, this was great. I really appreciate you.

I appreciate you, my man. Thank you so much for this. This is absolutely one of the best podcasts.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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I'll catch you later.