Drew Glover: How Code Switching Can Transform Your Negotiation Strategy

As we started hiring folks maybe, you know, six months, a year later, that was just something that they, when they onboarded, they didn't know any difference. That was just the world that they walked into when they came in. So we basically built a really strong culture around that as well. And not only of people joining the team thinking, great that we're, we get paid by this retainer, but we also have this upside of, and we didn't even pitch it to these founders of if we have equity in your business and we also get that retainer, we, we are fully aligned. You could literally stop working with us in a year. And if you hit me up two years later and say, hey, I need help, I'm going to do it. I have equity in your business. I am invested forever. Yes, I might not enlist my entire team to help scale your business because you're not paying me a retainer, but I will make that introduction. I will pick up the phone, I'll make that call to make sure you get what you need. Because maybe not as much as you, but I definitely want this. I want that business to scale and I want it to be wildly successful. And I, we all want that liquidity a bit one day.

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Drew, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, man, it's our pleasure. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about.

Yourself and what you do most definitely. The name is Drew Glover. I am the founder of Fiat Growth, leading growth consultancy in the fintech space and also a co founder and GP at Fiat Ventures early stage venture Fund, specifically focused on Fintech. Fintech. Fintech companies. However, fintech has really broadened in a massive way over the last, I'd say five or six years here where it's, it's really bleeding into every industry because we're in the middle of this embedded fintech revolution. I'll give you a quick background on the story of how a growth marketer turned into a vc. Fiat Growth has been around for five and a half years. Me and my co founder, we went to college together. But as we were sitting at the desk on our corporate jobs at different fintech companies, we had this really incredible access. We were Talking with probably 20 to 25 founders a week that we're trying to work with our respective businesses. And me and him decided to start kind of like picking off these different founders that were looking to partner with our businesses. But we saw an opportunity to work with them in an advisor way. And we basically said, hey, if we think we can help you grow, we can help you scale your business. Let's actually set up a separate deal together where we kind of become your growth advisors. So we what started out as two kind of co advisorships turned into 10. We negotiated equity in those businesses, we negotiated the right to invest in those businesses, ultimately grew to a num. So many clients that we quit our day jobs to create Fiat Growth, which is our growth consultancy. That business started out as was the two of us. Now it's a little over 30 people. We've worked with over 200 clients over the last five and a half years, driven over a couple billion dollars in revenue. And what makes us super unique is for all the companies that we work with, or the majority of them, we got the contractual right to invest in their next funding round. Which means if we help a company scale and they go raise that next big funding round, they have to let us or they have to ask us if we want to invest and we have to turn down or accept the opportunity to invest in the next funding round. So what that did in 2022 is it inspired us to found Fiat Ventures, which was our first fund, a $25 million venture fund where we got to strategically invest in, in the clients of Fiat Growth that we help scale in meaningful ways. So if we saw founders and businesses start to hit these momentum moments of growth, we would lean in and say, hey, we want to take advantage of that right to invest that we negotiated and we want to make it so we can get some equity in that business that we're helping grow together. And so what that's turned into today is Fiat Growth and Fiat Ventures, two separate entities, but sister and brother companies that work closely together. And we've invested in 28 companies, and 60% of those companies are businesses that we previously worked with at Fiat Growth, where we took advantage of that right to invest, that we negotiated. So, as I always say, I found a backdoor into venture. The typical type of venture capitalist is someone that went to an Ivy League school and then went right into venture and worked at a company at a venture fund for 10, 12 years and then decided to create their own venture fund instead. Although I went to Cal Go Bears, I was able to start a growth consultancy and leverage my access to really incredible founders and leverage my ability to grow businesses, turn that into Fiat Ventures, where I am a GP at a venture fund.

Incredible. This man I was. I'm so enthralled with your story that I forgot I was part of this podcast and felt like I was listening to a podcast. I'm like, oh my God, what comes next? This is great. This is like a pick your own adventure for me right now. So there's so much that I love about this because it shows the power of negotiation sprinkled into everything, type of interaction that we're having. Because you had the negotiation with your colleague at the beginning, before Fiat Growth even existed, saying, hey, let's come together and work this out. And then you had the negotiations with those founders, those early stage founders, saying, hey, trust me, let's see if we can work this out. You started the company and now you're negotiating with them for equity. And I love the way that you did that. And you just continue to go from there. And so maybe what we can do, let's start off by thinking about negotiation as a through line in this story in, like, your career journey. And then we can talk about some of the specific principles that you utilize in order to be effective at it. So walk us through what that early negotiation was like with your partner when you started to see these patterns. And you said, hey, maybe we could team up and actually do something big here.

Yeah. So I think like one of the biggest through lines is just having the gall, having the confidence to ask uncomfortable questions and feel comfortable seeing other people uncomfortable. I think a lot of times people want to break silence because they feel uncomfortable, but I think the main reason they break the silence is because, yes, they feel uncomfortable, but when they see someone else feel uncomfortable as well, that together kind of just like breaks people down in a really interesting way. But if you're able to hold silence, ask hard questions, live in the discomfort, you are going to see other people react in ways that are always going to surprise you. Going back to the very beginning of my story, me and my co founder worked really hard to set up uncomfortable moments when with other people, when we didn't have much to lose. So when we started this business, we still had full time jobs, we had full time salaries. I think what you see a lot of times is what I always call failure porn that you see a lot of these, like, these like Gary Vee and these different people talk about quit your job, live off top ramen, like figure it out. One of the best things I ever did was actually start my business while I had another full time job. Because my fear of losing, my fear of failing, it was much lower. I knew that I wanted to go start something else. But as we were starting this business in fiat growth and we started getting on the phone with some of these founders that said, hey, like, I think you could help me scale my business. What if we just hired you and Alex as our advisor? In those moments we had a full time job and I knew we could really shoot for the stars with some of the questions and the demands we had. And we would sit down and say, hey, like we can help you scale. Our model is very simple. Pay us a flat retainer for our services. And every single time we work with a founder, because we're very picky, every time we work with a founder, you need to provide us equity in your business and we need to get the contractual right to invest. That was a prerequisite. I think what happens with a lot of people that are negotiating is they try to close one deal and they try to throw in sweeteners, where those sweeteners, if you care about them, they need to be a prerequisite with the actual deal itself. You can't try to negotiate the things you really want after you've negotiated one part of the deal already. So, you know, for us it was, that was a prerequisite. People like, cool, like, if we give you equity, can we lower, can we lower the retainer? The answer is no. Like this is the package, take it or leave it. And so we enlisted that model and that mindset very early. And as you know, when things start working, then you're not as inclined to change what you came out of the gate with. So for us, that right to invest that equity, that retainer, that became something that was embedded into our entire business from day one. And as we started hiring folks maybe, you know, six months a year later, that was just something that they, when they onboarded, they didn't know any difference. That was just the world that they walked into when they came in. So we basically built a really strong culture around that as well. And not only people joining the team thinking, great, that we're, we get paid by this retainer, but we also have this upside of, and we didn't even pitch it to these founders of, if we have equity in your business and we also get that retainer, we are fully aligned. You could literally stop working with us in a year. And if you hit me up two years later and say, hey, I need help, I'm going to do it. I have equity in your business. I am invested forever. Yes, I might not enlist my entire team to help scale your business because you're not paying me a retainer. But I will make that introduction. I will pick up the phone, I'll make that call to make sure you get what you need. Because maybe not as much as you, but I definitely want this. I want that business to scale, and I want it to be wildly successful. And we all want that liquidity of it one day.

Right? That's powerful, man. And so just hitting on some key points here. I love the fact that we're not just talking about asking insightful questions, asking meaningful questions, we're talking about asking uncomfortable questions. And I think that is an important modifier there too, because a lot of times the thing that holds us back from asking the right question at the right time is our own personal discomfort with creating discomfort in the other person. And we hear all the time, hey, as a negotiator, you have to be comfortable with silence. And I think that it is obviously good advice, but you took it a step further because you helped us to recognize where our discomfort with silence comes from. Because we create these scenarios where the person feels uncomfortable, and then we let them off the hook because we don't want them to feel uncomfortable. So I love, love the fact that we're talking about uncomfortable questions and uncomfortable situations. And then this nuance, Drew, is fascinating and really powerful too, because when it came to negotiating with those founders, negotiating for equity became a prerequisite versus a sweetener like an add on at the end. And so what you did in those negotiations is that it's almost like you created a new status quo. You're saying, hey, listen, we don't negotiate that. Right? You created a new culture, a new norm, where then it eliminates pushback or it makes it very clear who you are going to work with versus who you are not going to work with versus trying to sneak that in at the end. And then you find out after doing work with the person that it's ultimately not the good partner. And I love the fact at the end that you are talking about interest, alignment. So most people might say, and I'm sure initially some of the founders were saying, this seems kind of aggressive. You're a growth partner, but now you're trying to negotiate for equity. No, no, no. But when you said, hey, this is not about me, this is about us. And now if we do this, both of us are in the same boat, driving toward the same thing, it actually gives you more value in the long run. Now you've changed the narrative and made it a collaborative approach, even though in the onset they might have seen it as an aggressive move.

That's 100% correct. And again, like a lot of this comes down to the story here. No one's going to negotiate with you unless you. Unless you have something that they want. So, you know, the second you realize you have something that they want, then you're at the table to have a meaningful conversation. Also, going back to this, making sure that you're sitting in the comfort, that you're asking uncomfortable questions. I'm at a point in my career now when I ask these uncomfortable questions, I get very excited. Because what you realize is the discomfort is the most exciting part of the job if you are the one giving that discomfort or if you're the one receiving that discomfort. Because what you're typically doing is you're inciting a new line of thought that someone doesn't get to think about often, because everything you feel comfortable about is something that you've practiced time and time again. But the most exciting parts of the day is when you run into those different moments where it's something that you don't think about often, something that you've never thought about, something that you haven't practiced. And so when I sit in that silence now, my initial thought is, like, what are they thinking about me? Are they judging me? Are they mad at me? My thought is, it's like, great. I've put a challenge on their platform plate that they don't get to encounter often. And I actually believe at the end of the day, if they hate it or love it, it'll be something that they'll be thinking about for the next two days, three days, or a week. That is a gift. Like, so I am constantly looking for ways to make other people feel uncomfortable because I believe it's the challenge, that even if they don't think they want it, they actually do.

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Master the arts with with the American Negotiation Institute. Click the link in the description to find out more. Elevate, negotiate and succeed. Yes. And it falls perfectly in line with our motto. At the American Negotiation Institute. We say the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And the mindset that you are showing right now I think is very encouraging to people who are still afraid of those uncomfortable moments and creating those uncomfortable conversations. Because the reality is that in the majority of situations, people can ask the uncomfortable question or they are in an uncomfortable situation and then they retract, they pull back, they recoil and they say, ooh, that did not feel good. I'm going to pull away from this tension that has been created. But for you, you found yourself in this situation so many times and you've recognized that that moment, that feeling is actually a signal of something good. It is a catalyst for growth. It's kind of like somebody who likes to exercise and they say, yes, I'm going for the burn. It's not supposed to feel good all the time when I'm working out at the gym. Now you believe it because you have gone through it and that's built a lot of confidence for you. And now when you have those conversations with founders in this moment, what do you think has changed for you most from those early stage days when you were, when you still had your full time job versus now where you are established, you have your fund and you still have your, your growth company as well.

Yeah. The biggest thing is, is I'm okay walking away from any deal. There's never a deal I walk into that I'm not okay walking away from. And if you're able to negotiate, have that negotiation with yourself prior to walking into any room, the power that that gives you is endless. And so you know, to me that was one of like the biggest transitions in my career. Right. And I would say it's less so. Like I felt a little bit more comfortable walking away from a deal when I was trying to get my early clients while I still had a full time job. It was more so that space of I had just quit my job, now I'm building Fiat and in the early days, and you're. You're struggling with just chasing revenue versus chasing valuable deals with valuable clients that you know will stick with you for the next two years versus being at risk of leaving you in two months. And so it takes time to do this. Like, for anyone listening right now, I don't want to be the person that's out of touch, being like, well, I just started my career. I'm scared of losing all deals because I just want one deal. But if, I promise you, if you have the negotiation with yourself that, like, you're early in your career, you are going to have a million conversations with a million opportunities throughout your career, the more you walk into that room knowing it's okay to walk away. And if you just get that sick sense of, this doesn't feel right, it's not going to work out. This isn't going to be the right client, this isn't going to be the right boss, or this isn't the right idea to chase down. The conversations and negotiations you're going to have are going to go so much better because you'll always be sitting from a side of, like, supreme confidence in that. If it doesn't smell right, I'm out.

I agree. And it's, I'm liking that we're talking about this because, again, this is one of those things that we hear so frequently in negotiation. You have to be okay with walking away. But I feel like we don't do a good job just as an industry of explaining what makes it so hard and what you could actually do about it. Because the reality is there are a lot of people, like you said, who are in that situation where, hey, listen, this is a matter of putting food on the table. Right? I need this. But what we found is that the circumstances can make it a little bit easier for you to put yourself in a position to walk away. And when you think about the analysis of leverage, a very simple way to look at it is whoever needs the deal the most has the least amount of leverage. The person who has the easiest path to walk away has the most leverage. And when you recognize the strategic reality of what I just said, but also the practical reality of somebody who might not have the luxury of being able to walk away, how do they find the courage or fortitude to set boundaries effectively in the negotiation when they know that, practically speaking, it's really going to be hard for them to walk away from money on the table?

Yeah, well, I think you really have to understand the value that you're bringing to whatever negotiation you're sitting in. And if you walk into a negotiation not understanding what your value is, you've lost before the conversation started. If you deeply understand the value you bring, even if you're sitting in a situation where the value you bring is 10% of the conversation, it's your job to drive the conversation into the pockets where you add value. In those conversations, you need to be able to take the places you do have value, enhance them, lean on them, make sure those shine. But all the places you're not adding value, you need to just make sure you have a really clear and compelling story of like where the value you can still bring in those areas are, but also at the same time making it so you're being truthful and transparent that that's not an area of expertise. I believe in a negotiation telling the truth, it's undervalued. A lot of folks walk into those conversations trying to oversell something. And when you don't have leverage, you tend to have a tell. And so turn your, your challenge into leverage by telling the truth. But when you start telling the truth, that actually turns into a leverage point for you because you can use that as a really compelling part of the negotiation.

I love this, Drew. I love this. And it's funny because one of the things that's most fascinating to me about this is that you're the second interview of the day for me and both people are in the VC firm negotiating million dollar deals and multimillion dollar deals. And both of you talked about the value of truth. That. And it's so important to talk about the power of truth. And what's fascinating too, which I think makes it even more legitimate, is that you're not coming at it from a preachy perspective saying, hey, morally this is the right thing to do, right? Though an argument could be made, you're saying, hey, strategically speaking. And so we've seen so many people just try to oversell what it is that they're doing. They try to kind of overhype their accolades and things like that, and eventually the house of cards fall. It's hard for you to be authentic and flow when you're trying to. And there is so much power that comes from just being able to speak truthfully and authentically, basically. And the other side appreciates that as well.

100. I will just say though, when you're entering a partnership with someone that is like a 10 year minimum journey, that's like, that's like marrying someone that's entering a long term relationship. And I think we all know we've learned the easy way or the hard way. The foundation of long term relationships, it's built on truth. Because cracks will get bigger. You go work at a company for a year, it might take them a year or two years or six months to find out that you're just not that good at the job. And so I also think as you're entering different conversations and negotiations, you really do have to underwrite the type of relationship that you're building with this individual. Is this something that you're forging for the next two minutes, the next six months, the next six years, or the next two decades? From my perspective, from a negotiation standpoint, I'm entering those conversations in wildly different ways.

That's powerful. That is powerful. And it makes a lot of sense too. As speaking as somebody who is married as well, I realize, hey, listen, those cracks, they, they keep up. They, they can, they get bigger, they get bigger. You can only keep up the facade so long before, hey, you know, we're going to have to have a tough conversation too. So I really like that. And one of the things you talked about is the power of storytelling in these negotiations. And I think the nexus between negotiation and storytelling is very strong and legitimate, but not talked about enough. And we have the stories that we tell that we weave together for the purposes of telling people who we are, what it is our company does. But then I liked how you talked about the stories that we tell for the value that we provide and the stories that explain the challenges that we might be facing. So we're still being honest about those vulnerabilities in those long term partnership types of negotiations. But you're doing it in a way that diminishes or reduces the negative impact of the reality because of the story that you cut, you tell. And I think, and tell me if I'm wrong on this, Drew, it seems like your background as somebody who helps companies to grow and get their name out there in that type of way is kind of helping you in those negotiations. Because storytelling is a key part of those, the growth partnerships that you establish, right?

That's right. I also think just experience consistent, constant, numerous experiences consistently add to different ways you can tell your story. I'm at a point in my career now where I focus less on trying to make it so my story just continues to be perfected. I try to actually make it So I have 50 different ways of telling my story based on different rooms that I'M walking into based on people I'm speaking to. Like, I grew up playing sports. I played football in high school, I played football in college. The thing that I got away from football, specifically the sport of football, is I got access to so many different types of individuals. If that be from an ethnicity standpoint, from a socioeconomic standpoint, from a location based standpoint, it gave me the ability to code switch in a really effective way. I consistently call it my superpower of being able to walk into any room of any person, doesn't matter what their background is, and being able to not switch my personality, but switch my kind of aura as I walk into that room to talk to that individual based on who they are and what they do and make it so they feel comfortable and make them feel as if they don't need to change themselves to communicate with me. And so those experiences, if that be an experience of playing football or an experience of working with 25 different types of tech venture backed businesses, it gives me the ability to pull from experience, to tell a story in real time. And I'll give you this, this cheat code that I use specifically because of where AI is today is I'm a huge consumer of media, of content. If that be movies, if that be TV shows, if that be documentaries, that be YouTube videos of different speeches from different people. What I'll do sometimes is when I see a speech that I really love, someone else who's told their story in a really compelling way, I'll actually rewrite my story on ChatGPT and then I'll ask through a prompt, can you please retell my story in this person's voice? And so think about this. Like, I'll write a story or a pitch of myself out and like, let's call this one show that I like is the Newsroom. Aaron Sorkin wrote the Newsroom. He also wrote the Social Network. I'll write out my own story or a subset of my story and I'll say, can you rewrite my story in the voice of, in the tone of Aaron Sorkin and the show Newsroom? And Aaron Sorkin's like very specific, very direct, factual, analytical. And it'll rewrite my story as if I'm this like analytically minded, data driven person. But it'll be my story. Or I can say, hey, write it in the voice of Maya Angelou and it'll do that. That's a, that's a very extreme one. But you can actually write your story out and put it into AI and it can tell you how Other people you can you respect in the business world or in the arts world would speak it. And I don't copy and paste that and speak in that, but I use it as inspirational points to add different nuance to how I talk about myself.

My mind is blown. My mind is blown. I use ChatGPT for hours every single day just to, like, hone the skill, but also to refine thoughts. Like, I journal a lot every day. And so I'll. And I'll run my thoughts, my. My analysis through that to see what other elements that I miss and just use it just in business all the time. I've never thought about it in terms of helping me to craft my story in different voices. I would always have it crafted. My story or something that I'm writing in a better version of my own voice. I never thought about that. And that's really powerful too, because sometimes you have these interactions with people where they see you in different, in a different light, but sometimes they can almost see you in a more accurate or profound way than you see yourself. And you learn about yourself through their eyes. And I never thought about taking that story and seeing how other people would tell your own story too. Because you're right when it comes to code switching, which is the ability to slightly shift parts of yourself while still maintaining the core identity in order to connect with other people on a deeper level. If I'm talking to somebody that's more analytical, that type of different type of storytelling methodology would work with that person. Somebody who's a little bit more. More artsy, maybe somebody who's interested in poetry, that type of stuff, maybe something that is a little bit more esoteric, a little bit more artful, might, might resonate more. But for me, a part of my identity, neither one of those comes naturally to me. So even if I were to try to prompt myself to say, hey, Kwame, be more analytical and from a data scientist perspective on how to tell your story, I don't have access to that, but the AI could do it. Man, that's so good. That is so good. And I know we're a wee bit over time, but I want to go deeper on the code switching part because I think that is a superpower that a lot of people could have, but don't truly know how to cultivate it. So can you go a little bit deeper into what that means to you and maybe some examples of how that's worked in the business world?

Yeah, I'll just tell you, if you're seeing this over video, you know, it Already if you're not. I'm a black African American man living in America. I was forced to learn how to code switch. As you know, within the VC world, it's less than 5% of GPs are Black. From a founder perspective, less than 5% of founders are black. That gets even smaller when you talk about black females as well. So just keep that in mind. But I grew up obviously thriving in my own community, which was a majority black community. But as I found myself really wanting and inspiring myself and pushing myself to live and thrive in this, this tech world, I knew that I had to find ways to again, not change myself, but be able to change the way I speak about certain things. So it resonated with the people that I was speaking to. Sometimes I'm raising money for my venture fund, sometimes I'm explaining to a founder why they should work with us on the fiat growth side of the business. Sometimes we're just trying to close a partnership with some folks. Regardless of me being black or them being whatever. I'm showing up and I'm trying to make complex ideas simple and in my mind and I'm treating other people the way I want to be treated. Things that I really respect about other folks that I speak to is when they can tell me about something that I don't know a lot about and make it really simple and digestible for me. So what started out as just simply being able to code switch, which is, you know, changing dialect, changing the way I tell stories, the way I talk based on different rooms, so I can in a much more easy, effective way navigate conversation and relationships. I also, from a universal language, being able to consistently expose yourself to different business models and life and things in the world, being able to take complex ideas and turn them into simple explanations, that is the name of the game. If you can do that, you'll be really, really successful. And I will also say you're going getting as much exposure to different business models as possible. There's one thing that I value wildly about being a VC is I speak to a thousand founders a year, 1000. By doing that, it makes it so if someone comes to me with an idea, I can dissect that idea in 25 seconds. Because I've seen hundreds of other companies try to build that idea. I've seen hundreds of companies fail at that idea. I've seen hundreds of companies succeed at that idea. I've also seen the founders and I've been able to look at the ones that have made it successful and not successful based on their Personality and their grit and their ability to tell a story and fundraise and build a team and build a product, break a product, rebuild a product. And so, you know, all these experiences I've had in a space that I spend the majority of my time trying to be successful in, I'm able to dissect moments quickly and that being a baseline. Also with that next line, being able to code switch based on the different rooms that I'm in. And then that gives me the superpower to make it so I can pull from a million different things to turn conversations in any direction I want. To me, that is what code switching is. Once you get to that next frontier of, I understand code switching, but there's so many different nuances of code switching based on the rooms you're walking in and the, the industry and the career and the, the things that inspire you and where you're spending the majority of your time.

Brilliant, Brilliant. So there are really two elements of that, because if you code switch but you don't know what you're talking about, then it doesn't help at all. But you have that, you have that knowledge, that knowledge through experience, through all these conversations and frankly, knowledge that you can't really get through traditional methods of learning. Right. So you could go to school and you can read all the case studies from B school or whatever, but it will pale in comparison to the real world experience that you have from actually having these conversations with these people to understand their business models. And then because of your diverse background, you've had these conversations with different types of people. So sometimes when people are saying, okay, I am talking to somebody who's different from me, I am going to act like them, then there's a problem there. When you're trying to act that means you don't really have it in you because you don't know enough about the culture to naturally flow in it. Because the thing that's really interesting about code switching, a lot of times it just kind of happens automatically. People might hear you and say, how did you do that? Well, do what? This is just how I operate in this field, you know, so the experience both in business, but also in the interpersonal relationships, that shines through. And I think that's really, really powerful.

Yeah, I'll just add one more thing there. And this is for someone that doesn't have the luxury of being in business or having access to ChatGPT or being able to look at all these business model, the one thing that will inspire this ability to code switch and being able to kind of morph into these different spaces is simply curiosity. My dad, when I was a kid, he ran a nonprofit, and again, he was fundraising dollars. He was a community organizer. And I just watched him as a kid engaging with the community. And I could see him talk to a homeless man for 20 minutes. I could see him talk to a senator for 20 minutes. And both those two extremes seems equal. There was an equal amount of ease to both from my perspective. And yes, I was lucky enough to have a father figure that was able to show me that. But simply by seeing how people interact and being curious about it, you will naturally see what works and what doesn't work. As you also look at the other side of those conversation and see how people react to people. You know, what happy looks like and you know what just a fake smile looks like. Like, that is something that's built into every human. The faster you're able to understand, you know, what authentic responses from humans, the quicker you'll be able to understand how you can best morph into being, you know, what other people want and need you to be and what you frankly want to be in different moments of life.

Incredible. Incredible. Drew, I could just keep on talking to you all day, but I know we were coming up on time, so we have to wrap up. But you know what would be cool? If you have a podcast that you could refer people to. That would be great because I'm sure other people would want to hear from you. Do you happen to have a podcast?

I do. I do have a podcast. My podcast is Growth Caviar. And Growth Caviar is. It's really just pulling growth playlists from some of the most successful founders from the fastest growing startups in Silicon Valley today. And what we get to do is really just dive deep into their business, their journey, and specifically that kind of growth special sauce that got their business to where they are today. And again, you get to hear me code switch in many different ways. I'm talking to many different types of founders that are focused on many different things. And you also hear the curiosity in my voice as well. So please listen to Growth Caviar. I'll make sure that we get the link involved when we launch this.

Amazing. Drew, thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it.

I appreciate you.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

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