Effectively Delivering Bad News and Managing Emotions with Gregory Williams

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Greg, thanks for joining us today.

Oh, it's a pleasure, man. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Yeah, it's our pleasure to have you. So how would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. So I am the principal and managing attorney of my own firm, the law office of Gregory L. Williams. We help people navigate the stress of losing a loved one. That help usually takes the form of navigating people through the estate administration process if they just lost a loved one, you know, helping them, you know, figure out how to wind down their assets, you know, distribute assets, transfer ownership the property, that kind of thing. It also includes helping people plan for the possibility of an unexpected death and wanting to make sure that their family and the other left one loved ones that you're leaving behind are going to be taken care of.

Absolutely. Critical work, very, very important, you know, and I'm assuming, based on what we've talked about, there are going to be a few difficult conversations that come up in your world, too.

Yes, indeed. Indeed. And when you, when you, when you mix, usually when people need a lawyer, it's not celebratory. Right. There's usually something that has already gone wrong or the anticipation that something will go wrong. And so you couple just the ordinary anxiety of having to retain legal counsel with grief and family dynamics and complications about money. I mean, it can, it can be a pretty potent mix of difficult conversations. Like you say.

Absolutely. Makes a lot of sense. Well, I'm glad that we have you here to be our guide when it comes to these difficult conversations because that's something that I've struggled with in the past, how to deliver bad news. And when we chatted, we talked about some simple things to keep in mind. And so the three things that we're going to focus on today, first, being sympathetic. What does that actually mean? And how do we put it into action? In these conversations, state, don't suggest, which again, is a very important thing when you're talking about framing the issue. And then lastly, now we transition into problem solving and how we can work through solutions with the person. And so when we talk about being sympathetic in this context, when you're delivering bad news, what does that mean to you?

So in the probate context, again, when I'm helping people navigate through these stressful times, like I said, it's either because they have lost a loved one, sometimes unexpectedly, sometimes not, or because they are sort of contemplating what the impact of their death might be on their loved ones. And so either you are dealing with somebody who is actively going through what can be pretty significant and heavy grief, or you're talking to somebody about really heavy issues that most people don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about. And so being mindful of that context, you know, being mindful of the fact that you're dealing with someone who just lost a loved one, you know, very often they have no idea where to start, what to do. Again, you couple that with the fact that you have to go to probate court, you've got to get an attorney. You know, people are grieving, they are anxious. Depending upon the family dynamics, you know, there may be a lot of anger and hurt there. And just being ever mindful of that context, when you're working with somebody, you're dealing with somebody and just being mindful of what they're going through at any particular moment, you know, it really forces you to temper or moderate your approach to make sure you are meeting their needs, where they are.

Makes a lot of sense. And yeah, absolutely. I think what we're talking about here is just general awareness. On the show, we always talk about self awareness and how important that is for your own emotional regulation. But here what we're talking about is being more aware of the other person, their. Their state of mind, their emotional status and those type of things. And what's interesting here is thinking back to what you said, you talked about grief or sometimes anger, those type of things. We might just generalize and say this person is emotional. But what is the value of understanding the distinction between the emotions that they are experiencing?

I think the distinction is Understanding where it's coming from and that it's not necessarily a reflection of somebody's character or even a reflection of how they might be feeling at any particular moment. Right. When you say somebody is emotional, you know, it's easy to mean that or to have it interpreted as a commentary about their character when really there's. There's something that leads to that. There's some underlying explanation or set of circumstances that they're reacting to, you know, coupled perhaps with their character, you know, whatever idiosyncrasies they might have that causes their expression to come out in a certain way and just sort of dealing with the expression without being mindful of what might be causing that, you know, I think will force you to react inappropriately. I mean, if you're dealing with somebody who's emotional and you don't take time to think through why they might be reacting that way, then you might react emotionally back. And I don't think that's being very sympathetic. Especially if you're in a situation where you're really trying to help somebody navigate through these emotions. There needs to be a guide along that path, and the guide cannot get lost and entangled in the same sort of landmines or mired in the same muck that you're leading somebody out of. You've got to be able to see those, navigate through them in order to help somebody else get to the other side.

Absolutely. And what's interesting, too, because I know this, as a fellow attorney, a lot of times we get really myopically focused on getting things done. Here's the problem, here's the solution. This is the law. This is the right answer. You suggested something that's incorrect. Here's the right answer. Right. And so really what it sounds like is that we need to take some time up front to address the. And empathize with the emotional state of the other side first before we move on to what we might deem to be more productive dialogue.

Yeah. And for me, and I'll be honest, this is a lesson that I've learned only after starting my own practice and really being responsible not just for producing the legal product, but serving the needs of the client. I mean, it helped reframe what my actual job is. And I think a lot of attorneys think their job is to draft the brief or to do the legal research or to arrive at the right answer, when in fact, your job is to provide peace of mind to your client. The tools you use to provide that peace of mind might be doing the legal research or Drafting the brief. But that's not really the end game. The end game is peace of mind. And so if you keep what your actual responsibility is, as opposed to getting bogged down by the tools you might use in any particular situation to, you know, reach that objective, then you might realize that a different set of tools is required under a different set of circumstances. And when you're trying to give somebody peace of mind, simply giving them the correct legal answer may not be the appropriate tool. Instead, you might need to use some softer skills in order to really do what they hire you to do, which is to make them comfortable that you are taking care of them.

Yes. And so it's funny because you think about it just like you said, as a lawyer, we think about these tools. These are the tools that will solve the problem. And for us, we might rate our efficacy or success based on how well and properly we implement those legal tools. But for the client who's going through this emotionally tumultuous situation, they are recognizing that even if you are not, even if you are using the correct tools but not addressing their emotional needs, they will rate you as a lesser lawyer because they're grading on a different scale.

Right, right, right. And oftentimes, you know, I tell people this, especially in Columbus, Ohio, where I'm located. You know, it almost seems to feel like every other person you meet is an attorney. Right. We both went to Moritz. You know, we're both attorneys. We both know dozens and dozens of them. You know, there are any number of attorneys on virtually any corner in the city where you could go and have them draft some papers. But that's not why people hire me. And that's not really what they're looking for. I mean, if they wanted somebody to draft some papers, they would have gone to, you know, no name attorney around the corner. The reputation that we're trying to build is that we actually care about giving you peace of mind. We're sympathetic to what you're going through and, and helping you navigate that, deal with that. You know, within this context of estate administration or estate planning, that's the service that we're providing. It's not just drafting or research. It is making you comfortable and confident that we are. That we care about you and that we're trying to, you know, help you achieve that objective with that level of care and service.

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Absolutely. And I like how you said it at the end there, care and service, right? You need to show that you care first before even providing the service. And I think that that is a great segue to the second point, which is state don't suggest, because at some point we need to get beyond the discussion about how they're feeling because they're coming to you for a legal service, and sometimes that requires you to tell them some inconvenient truths, as they might say. And so when you think about the phraseology here that you use, states don't suggest what comes to mind for you.

I think you're right to point it at, point to it as a segue or a transition, because I don't think you can get to point number two, being able to effectively state what the problem is or state what the bad news might be, unless you have demonstrated that you are sympathetic to the client and that you are not interested in just impressing them by efficiently or effectively wielding some legal tool, but you actually care about their state of mind and their peace of mind. Once you give them that confidence, then you can move on to just being direct and honest about what the challenge is or what the bad news is, resting assured that you've already laid the groundwork that you care about them, and that you're not coldly and without emotion delivering some bad news, without any care about how they might feel about it or how they might react to it, you know, but instead you're telling them straight and you're telling them direct. And I find that as opposed to suggesting where, you know, you've got bad news and you don't really want to state it because you're afraid of how the person might react. And so you beat around the bush and, you know, you state it in really vague and obtuse ways when somebody's grieving and they've got all of these emotions going on, you know, it's often the case that they're not following exactly what you're saying and they might assume that you're saying something worse and you might be frustrating them because they're spending a lot of energy trying to interpret what you're saying and you actually end up making the situation worse. I think if you make clear that you care about the person and you state succinctly clearly, but with compassion, what the problem is or what the bad news is, it allows them to save that mental energy for coming up with a solution as opposed to sort of emotionally running in circles trying to figure out what is this guy trying to tell me that he just can't spit out. Like it must be really bad if he can't just tell me what it is. You need to avoid that and just be direct with him.

It makes sense. And it's so interesting that we are trying to spare people's feelings by being more indirect. But in trying to spare people's feelings, we make the situation so much worse, which makes them feel worse in general. Right. And so you know what's interesting, Greg? You tell me what you think about it. Because I think that yes, we're trying to spare people's feelings. And at the same time, for some people, it could be their own fear that they're. That's holding them back from being direct in that situation. So yes, they're trying to spare other people's feelings, but at the same time they're choosing this because of their own feelings as well, their own discomfort with the situation.

Yeah, but again, that goes back to being one. I think that's correct. But I think the failure there is a failure to really sympathize with, you know, the client you serve and keeping foremost in your mind the service that you're providing to them, which is that peace of mind. It's not about your feelings. You know, we're professionals, we have to sort of, you know, internally navigate through that. But, you know, but you can't let your emotions or your feelings obscure, you know, the level of service that you're providing to your, to your client. And I think to the extent that one is apprehensive about directly delivering bad news because they're uncomfortable with it, I think that person fails to adequately serve their client insofar as they aren't keeping their own needs or their clients needs for most of their own.

Absolutely. Yeah. You're spot on right there. And when it comes to stating these things directly. Now let's take it to the next level because oftentimes you stated directly, they understand, and then you can move on. Sometimes you state it directly and then they don't respond favorably to that. And so what's interesting is that you say, okay, I listened to that podcast with Greg. He told me to state it directly. I'm going to do it one time. And then they push back and they said, oh, no, now I'm going to be indirect again. So can you speak to how you respond if the first time stating it directly doesn't work the way that you would have liked?

I think some of it comes down to, like I said, soft skills. You know, these are skills that I've learned from experience, again, really, since starting my own practice and being ever sensitive to the needs of the client. You know, you learn how to deliver bad news. And that's not to say that you suggest it or that you speak vaguely or obtusely about it, but rather that your posture, your tone, the manner in which you deliver, even directly deliver bad news, all of that is important. And I think learning how to do that comes with time and experience. But even if somebody reacts poorly, or at least not the way you want them to, upon first hearing the bad news, again, I keep coming back to this first point. This is why it's important for you to have that foundation with your client, so they know you're coming from a good place, even if they don't understand it. You also have to keep in mind the emotional context. Right. Part of their reaction might be fueled by the grief that they're going through or the fact that they're contemplating really heavy subjects that most people don't want to spend a lot of time thinking about. I think you need to remain calm. I think you need to listen to what they're saying, even if it's unspoken. There's a lot said in between statements or in between the lines. Perhaps change what you say so that you say it in a different way, but no less direct. Answer any questions that they might have. But I think this comes back to being sympathetic and being ever mindful of the context within which you're providing this service.

Absolutely. And to the point that you had about answering any question. Sometimes I've recognized when I was practicing law or when I'm having. Having the clients with the American Negotiation Institute. Sometimes I get the vibe that there's a question, but they're not going to ask the question. People hold back for different reasons. Sometimes they're uncomfortable, sometimes they're grief stricken and they're just exhausted. And then sometimes it's ego or pride. They don't want to admit that they don't know. And so sometimes what I would do is I would say, okay, well, what questions do you have versus saying, do you have any questions? Really trying to invited because do you have any questions really easy for people to just say, no, I'm good, even if it's not true.

Yeah, no, I think that's great. I think that's great. And that's something that I'll probably add to my repertoire. You know, the thing that I usually do is I'm comfortable with silence. That's a learned skill. A lot of people aren't, you know, but if you state something, don't be too quick to move on. Right. Sort of use the soft skills. Read people's eyes. You know, the little muscles around the corners of their eyes, they might be telling you something. How furrowing their brow, how they're pursing their lips. I mean, there's a lot that's unspoken, that if you stop and pay attention to it, you get comfortable with some degree of silence and you don't rush to move on to the next point. You might be able to sense there's an issue. And so you can directly ask, do you have any questions or what questions that you have to your point? Oftentimes I'll ask, does that make sense? And that sort of gives the client the opportunity to repeat to me what I said to them, or it gives them the opportunity to sort of reverse it and say, no, you. You didn't say this the right way. So if they have a question, if I say, did that make sense? You know, instead of asking the question, you know, they can sort of suggest that there was something incorrect about how I phrased it, which may make them a bit more comfortable to get the clarity that they need. Does that. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, perfect time to segue, because once you get that clarity, we've taken the time to work through the emotional challenges that they might be experiencing with sympathetic. Being sympathetic. Then we took the time to clearly articulate what the challenges are, what the situation is, by stating versus suggesting. And now we've earned our way to problem solving. And so when it comes to problem solving in your field, I think from the outside looking in, people might say, well, wills, trust and estates, very straightforward. Probate administration, very straightforward. The rules are what they are. But one of the things that you talked about when we were preparing for this is that in problem solving, you need to be a little bit more creative and more open to alternatives. And so what does that look like in your world?

Yeah, so that's a great question and a Lot of it happens informally outside of the estate administration process. It really is akin to mediation or negotiation, helping people arrive at alternative solutions and avoiding any conflict at court or a straight sort of recitation or following of the statute of dissent and distribution or something like that, because it might not work out equitably in everybody's favor. And so, you know, being creative is acknowledging, you know, the best alternative to the negotiated agreement. Right. Which is, you know, this is what we would like to happen, but really the fallback is this statute, and this is what's going to happen if we don't do anything, you know, and helping people think through. Is that really the outcome that you want? And is there a way that people, perhaps we can compromise or discuss some alternative to that that you could agree to informally outside of that process that feels a bit more equitable to everybody. And so a lot of it is, again, you've got to file the paperwork, you've got to follow the statute, but there can be an agreement among family members that this is how we're going to handle it. As long as everybody is content and you arrive at that negotiated settlement, as it were, the court is very unlikely to intervene and break that up.

Yeah, it makes sense. And the thing is, too, like you said, we want to get that agreement up front so the court doesn't step in after the fact. And that demonstrates the difference between just practicing law, doing the law, using those tools, and making sure that you're managing the people side. And so, again, I'm assuming, think about a law student coming through. They probably are not talking about, yeah, will trust the states doing probate work. I need to have solid people skills. Right. But here you're demonstrating it's so critical. And again, getting to the conflict management side, because we have the client management side managing expectations and everything like that. But you have to recognize that even though you might have one person, technically who is the client or leading the conversation, you still have to mediate between different factions within the family. And so tell us a little bit more about your approach there when it comes to getting people on the same page, even though they're all going through this emotionally challenging time.

Yeah, I mean, so it's. It's really. Again, I'm. I'm coming back to those first two points. Being sympathetic and understanding that being sympathetic is. It's not an umbrella or a blanket thing. Right. I mean, you might assume that everybody has the same reaction or is feeling the same way, you know, in response to the loss of a loved one, but that Loved one's relationship with each member of the family, for example, is different. And so everybody's feeling a little different. And so, you know, part of being sympathetic is not just recognizing, hey, there was death. You know, these folks are grieving. It's trying to understand how each particular person is grieving based on the relationship that they had with the decedent. So it's, it's, it's being individually sympathetic, you know, helping them navigate that is about stating things directly, you know, about not being caught up in your own emotions. You know, somebody has to be objective. Again, somebody has to be the guide to navigate these people through. And it's all. It's a lot. It's a lot like acting like a mediator, you know, hearing what people say, trying as best you can to understand what they mean, you know, reinterpreting that or reiterating that to, you know, the other party or another member of the family, again, all honestly, all directly. But, you know, when people are emotional like that, sometimes they don't have the ability to clearly communicate. They say something, but they say it in a certain way that may offend somebody. Somebody has to hear what they mean, interpret it, and help navigate these people to the best negotiated settlement that feels the most equitable for everybody.

Yeah, it makes sense. And the part that I like the most there was that you were talking about how you need to treat the individual with that same sympathy that you described earlier. And so different people, we can make assumptions, oh, it's a death. Everybody's sad, everybody's grieving. Yes, it is true. But there can be a multitude of emotions. Right? So maybe everybody is feeling some level of grief, but it varies depending on the person. The person who's the. Who might be the responsible child who everything falls on might be annoyed that they have to do this. The other one might be mad at the person who passed away for not getting their stuff together. The spouse who's left behind could just be completely devastated and broken down. And so if you, if you just assume that everybody's feeling the same way to the same degree, you're going to really mess up those dynamics individually between you and that person, but also collectively as you try to mediate between the parties.

Yeah, no, I think that's. I think that's perfectly stated. And it's. It's accurate, too. It's accurate, too. And so, you know, one thing that I do is, you know, somebody has to sort of absorb those feelings. Right? The mediator, to a degree, has to be able to, you know, absorb Absorb, redirect, sort of, you know, reframe, make useful, you know, so you can't be emotional. You have to be willing to deal with people in that emotional state. You've got to, you know, you've got to. You've got to, again, be sympathetic. You got to be open. You've got to be able to withstand it and make it into something possible. Because all of those things are happening. Everybody's feeling a little different. You know, somebody has to make sense of all that.

Yeah, makes sense, man. Well, I appreciate the work that you do. Kudos. You make the negotiations I have to deal with seems so easy. So go.

You're too kind, my friend. You're too kind. Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

Well, before you go, let the listeners know again about your firm and how they can get in touch with you.

Oh, thank you. Yes, the firm is the law office of Gregory L. Williams. They can get in touch with us most directly by going to our website, glwesq.com we've got a lot of helpful resources on there. There's a bit of information about me and some of my other staff. You know, there's phone number, fax. All that information is right there on that website. And so for those who are even just beginning to think about estate planning, or perhaps they've just lost a loved one, or they're not ready to engage legal counsel quite yet, like I said, there's some helpful resources on that site that may point you in the right direction that we hope you find helpful. So it's glwesq.com fantastic.

And, everybody, we will have links in the description of this podcast. Greg, thank you, my friend, for coming and sharing your wisdom.

My pleasure.

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