Elevate Your Career: Using Negotiation to Climb the Corporate Ladder with Heather Spilsbury

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Hi Kwame. Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, it is my pleasure. And thank you for having such a great conversation with me. Before that, we could make an organic intro. This is great.

Yeah.

How would you get us started? By telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Sure. My name is Heather Spilsbury. I am the chief operating officer at 5050 women on boards. 5050 women on boards is a nonprofit organization that's committed to advancing women to corporate boardrooms. And we do that through a number of different pillars, but it really resides in four different areas, which is research, education, advocacy, and collaboration with key stakeholders.

This is great, Heather, and the work that you and your team do every day, it's so important. So I just want to start off with appreciation there. And I also want to make sure I give you a shout out with your 50 Women to Watch program that's coming out too. Can you tell us more about that?

Sure, yeah. 50 women to watch for Boards is an initiative that we launched on International Women's Day of this year. And what we wanted to do was curate A list of 50 women who are currently not serving on a public company board, but are ready and prepared to for corporations that often come to us and tell us they can't find the right candidates or they're not sure how to diversify their boards, or they're not able to find someone with that exact expertise. So this list that's being published is extraordinary because you can search for candidates by primary expertise, race and ethnicity, and also other categories that align with what a board might be looking for. So we are extremely happy to be able to launch something like this so that we can help corporations get there because we want to move away from the excuse that there aren't qualified candidates out there or that there's not someone in reach who you can tap into. And the great thing about the list too is that it's been confirmed by a selection committee of extraordinary non gov chairs and chairs of organizations like Honest Bright, House Financial, Victoria's Secret. Two of the selection committee members are also on the stock exchanges of TMX Group and Viva in Mexico. So it's been great to see this group come together and really agree on who these finalists are. So in a sense, the candidates have already been vetted for these corporations or even recruiters who are employed by the corporations to search for candidates. They've already gone through that rigorous process through our campaign. And so then they can tap into these women who they know can apply for the position or then offer up someone else in their network to apply for it. So we think it's a great initiative to be able to fill that gap where corporations are lacking some of that networking opportunity.

I love it. This is great. And it ties in really perfectly with what we're going to talk about today, which is using negotiation as a tool to elevate your career and negotiate your way to the top. And so based on your experience working with women and helping them to get into these higher positions within companies, can you outline what you would consider the biggest challenge that they face?

Yeah, it's interesting because I think some of the challenges are based on internal challenges that most women face, which is having the confidence to figure out what the next step is or having the confidence to say this is something that I could actually do or I actually provide value. You know, there's a lot of research out there and a lot of examples about how women really won't even apply for a job unless they have all of the qualifications. Where when you look at Men who are applying, it's sometimes different in terms of how they approach what their next move is. So what we do in our educational programs is you really teach women not only how to get on board and how to network effectively and how to build your board profile. Those are the key elements, right? Those are the tactical things that come out of it. But really what we do too is make sure that they understand the value that they add to corporations. And that value is so tangible. These are really experienced senior leaders who are coming up in the pipeline who have what it takes to not only serve on a board, but potentially run a company. And sometimes they don't see that until you get them to express what they do, you know, and building their high impact soundbite to say like, this is, this is who I am, this is what I do, this is how I do it, and this is how I can effectively help you. So those things, I think once we see people come out of the courses, it's like such a change in terms of their demeanor and also the confidence that they carry to be able to set out to have other goals for themselves beyond just their current career path.

Oh, I love all of this. And I think one of the things that's noteworthy about this is just how often people talk about confidence being the issue. Because again, if you want to learn how to negotiate, just Google negotiation. If you want to learn how to get to a board, you can Google that, but that doesn't speak to the internal challenge that prevents us from doing the things that we need to do. And so I love the fact that with your educational programs, you're talking strategically the how to, but you're not missing that internal piece of it. Because if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how much you know.

It's true. It's very true. It's true in anything, right? And especially with negotiation, you're negotiating for yourself, really. I mean, you're, you're negotiating things sometimes not in your best effort, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. And we're teaching women not to do that. Don't negotiate down on yourself when you haven't even asked for something yet. So you have to make sure that you're going in with confidence, that you know what you can do and what you can deliver. And then above that, what else do you need? What do you need from your organization? What do you need from your future career? What do you need from whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish? That's true. It's Those tangible things are there, but it's also the soft skills of building it within yourself to be able to say that, I can do this, I can serve on a board if that's the right path for me, or I can apply to the next role if that's the right path for you too.

Agreed. And something that I want to zoom in on a bit is you said that after they go through the program and once they fully appreciate the value that they can bring, you notice a change in their demeanor. Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, it's interesting. I've taken a number of our workshops just to be able to go through the process, not only for myself, but also just to see the alumni that we have going through the courses. So every now and then I'll pop into one of our board fundamentals classes or get on board classes. And you can see people kind of. And even on Zoom, you can see it. Right. You know, it's hard to read body language all the time on on video calls, but because these calls are so interactive, we try and make sure that everyone's playing a part and has speaks up or raises hand or we call upon them so that they are engaged in the meeting. But you can see people kind of hunkered over and not wanting to say a lot or not communicate or if they are communicating, they want to put something in the chat instead of raising their hand or speaking out loud until that first person makes that first move. And then people feel more comfortable, Right. And then by the second session, especially with get on board, you can see people really open up and not only open up, but relaxed and feel really good about the information that they're sharing. So now that they've put together, let's say, their high impact sound Soundbite about what they do and how they do it, they now deliver it with more confidence and they're seeking more input on behalf of what they're sharing. And they're open to the input, which is very different from the first session where you know, you're not sure if you should share your high impact sound bite. You're writing it by yourself and alone, even in your breakout session. And because you're called upon, then you'll share it, but you don't really want to give it away because they're not embarrassed, but it's almost like you don't want to talk about yourself in that way. And so getting them to move from that place to the final step in the second session is just an amazing thing to watch.

This is incredible. Because again, the psychology of this is fascinating because even going to the point that you said about they don't want to share their high impact sound bites. And correct me if I'm wrong, high impact sound bites kind of akin to an elevator pitch.

Yes.

Yep. And so now after the program, they are not only willing to share it, but also open to input feedback on it, on how to make it better. And I think that's really interesting because when you are more confident, you become less defensive. You're willing to say what you need to say and at the same time, when somebody else says something, it doesn't feel as a threat to you. And so what's really interesting about confidence, when done right, tempered by humility, which makes sure it doesn't tip toward Arrog too.

I couldn't have said it better. I mean, that's exactly it. You know, I think even in our own careers, and you've probably experienced this too, where once you become more comfortable doing something, you're more willing to let people let you know what could be better or how things could change. And you're right to your point, that defense mechanism kind of drops and you're able to take that input, take what you can and apply what you need to based on what you know as an expert and do that with some humility and also some grace where you're able to go. Thank you so much. I appreciate that information that's so helpful. I'm going to work that into the next whatever it is. But I think that becomes easier for people to do, which is such a great way to underscore it.

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Yeah, I mean, it's really defining your career and like you said before in an elevator pitch, but more so it's about making sure you understand the pieces and parts that you need to pull out. Right. So effectively when you're talking about yourself, and I do this a lot because you tend to fall or lean this way, but you say you know your title, your company, what your company does, but then you kind of end your introduction like I did when I introduced myself here on the podcast. But if I was going to elevator pitch myself, you know, I talk about what I'm doing for 50, 50 women on boards, how we've moved the needle and how I've played a role in that and the results. And so you really come down to like the tangible pieces and parts of the role that you've played not only in your current company, but even in your past companies and your career as a who to say this is how I've done it and these are the results that I've driven and this is how I can help you in your next phase. And those are really important pieces and parts. When we break it down like that, I think that's what you were asking. But that's the tangible pieces that you then can speak about really confidently and share with others.

Absolutely. And now every once in a while, I hear a listener in the back of my head, and I have to channel them. So what would you say to the person who says, well, Heather, what? My goal is to just work really hard. I know as a woman or a minority, I have to work harder than everybody else, twice as hard to get the same recognition, and I don't feel comfortable talking my way to the top. I want my work to speak for itself, and that's humility to me. What would you say to that person?

I would say that that's how I felt for a long time, especially in my career, and I have a weird work ethic, and I'm sure you have the same, Kwame. But I'm a workahol in many ways, and so a lot of what I've done in my past has been keep my head down and just work really hard and do the things that I need to do to get the job done and go above and beyond, because that's how I'm programmed. And part of me even taking this role with 5050 was stepping back and saying, well, that's all great and that's good, that we can work ourselves to the bone and try and get recognition. But you have to advocate for yourself. And the reason that you're advocating for yourself is because you need to let people know what you're doing, because people aren't always tuned in to what you're delivering. And it's not to say that you need to be boastful about it, but you need to have really constructive conversations, not only with your manager or whoever you report to, but anyone outside the organization. Or if you have those opportunities where you're asked to present or you're asked to share information on behalf of the company, take the opportunity. It's really important for people to see you in action. And that's part of the reason that people are appointed to boards, is because other board members have seen other people in action in other places, and so they want to be able to vouch for people and to validate that this is a great candidate. And so the same thing could be said for your everyday work life. While it feels great to be able to do the work and work hard and put your head down and say, I'm going to do this, and I'm just going to hope that my work speaks for itself, it doesn't always, especially in today's age, where things are moving so fast. So advocate yourself not only at your job and with your manager, but outside of it. And also even on social media platforms like LinkedIn. I mean, we know it, right? It works so well to be able to share your personal brand with others, what you truly believe in, your mission and your values, and then what you're doing at your career and what you want to do next. And making that ask and having those strategic conversations will never hurt you. If they can't help you, they're going to tell you they can't help you. Right. But if someone can help you or can think about you for future opportunities, they're going to keep keep you in the back of their mind.

Absolutely. And this is really insightful, too, because one of the things you mentioned was people aren't tuned into what you're doing. And it's so true. I'll speak from the perspective of a CEO. Sometimes we are so focused on making sure the job gets done and putting out fires that we don't recognize the parts of our business that are working in silent perfection. Sometimes the best employees are the ones that you don't think about the most because you don't have to, because they do so well. And so it's easy to forget, like, hey, this person needs a bonus. This person needs a upgrade in their role because we're so busy and caught up in our own things. And so at the end of the day, it's really up to us to not only be the professional, but also our own marketing team to tastefully market the work that we're doing. Constantly reminding the people in our organization and our network about the value that we bring. Because if they don't feel like you have value or if they're not conscious of your value, then you don't have leverage at the negotiation table, even though you have value to provide. And. And I remember one of my clients that I, back when I was coaching, one of my clients said, you know, one of the things that annoys me is that there are other people in my organization who keep on winning these awards, like in community service and other things. And I know objectively I do more than them. And it's frustrating. I was like, you know why they're getting the awards, don't you? He's like, I don't want to post about this. And I said, listen, I think you have to consider your values, because if somebody doesn't feel comfortable sharing, then don't share. But then if you have aspirations for the boardroom and improving your career, and everything. These are things you have to do. And I had to go through this too. I felt really uncomfortable sharing. And then it's in the last 5ish years that I decided to get over it. And it's been working.

It gets easier too, Right. Once you start. And I think the advocacy piece for yourself, really, like you just said, so great. It leads the negotiation part. So if you're continually advocating for yourself in a way that that's conducive with who you are and what you want to achieve, then I think once you come to the table to negotiate something, it's a lot easier to do that. Right. It's a lot easier to say, this is what I do and how I do. This is what I'm doing all year long. And these are the things that I think I should be recognized for. This is the next opportunity I want to seek out. And that becomes a lot more comfortable. So it's almost like it's part of the negotiation tactic is to make sure you're advocating for yourself in a way that will help people see you and what you're contributing. Again, with humility, but with some gumption, too, because you just have to kind of get over it.

Exactly. And I think that's one of the things that people have to recognize is that sometimes we wait until we feel comfortable to do things, but sometimes the only way to get comfortable is by doing it while you're uncomfortable. And then eventually it becomes normal to you. You normalize the experience by pushing yourself to have those types of experiences. And big mistake people make at the negotiation table is thinking that the negotiation begins at the negotiation table. You should have been marketing this whole time. So you're not bringing it to their awareness at the negotiation table. You're reminding them of your accomplishments that you have been promoting this entire time. And for that person who is listening, I keep on hearing their voice, Heather, they're like, okay, Heather, I believe you. I'm going to try this. But how do I promote myself and start angling for this negotiation, this promotion, this board position, how do I do it while still being humble?

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think it has to align with your ethos. So in a way, you know, it depends on what your ultimate goal is. So if your goal is to like, for me, for example, I'll use myself as an example. My goal is to make sure that women understand what they have to offer. And so a lot of that has to do with how I present myself on social media and in my personal life. And everywhere. You know, I just want to make sure that people understand that I'm a champion for you. I'm going to help you get there in any way, shape or form that I can. But it's up to you to use those tools to be able to do that. Right, but that's my goal, so I've decided to focus my goal on that. So then anything that I post about is related to that in a way that helps other people understand that and gets that message across. And then I also do it for myself, right? I also advocate for myself and present myself in a way that, that I'm proud of the things that I've done and I've achieved. And I'm able to put that in my about section. I'm able to put it in my headline, I'm able to make sure that it comes across in my profile photo. I'm able to do it when I'm commenting on other people who are posting about things that I'm interested in. And that just starts to become a natural sort of pace that you develop with yourself when you're trying to market yourself and advocate for yourself. Can be on LinkedIn, it could be on Instagram, it could be on any social media platform, really. But you just have to make sure that your personal brand comes across in a way that's constructive across any platform you decide to be on. Because especially if you're looking for a board, they tend to search on social media sites first. So you just need to understand how you're presenting yourself, which is interesting because a lot of people don't know that they'll search LinkedIn to see who you are, who you're connected with. You know, how do you present yourself, things like that. So that's why I love LinkedIn as a platform, just because I feel like it creates so much opportunity in that sense. But you also have to be mindful of what you're sharing and how you're sharing it and how you're approaching conversations and make sure that your true, authentic self is also resonating within what you're sharing. But to answer your question fully, I think part of it also takes just some practice. We offer a course called Personal Brand and Digital Presence for Boards, which is really great, very tactical. I enjoyed the course so much. I got a lot out of it myself and just started to get more comfortable in the space of being able to share information that I probably wouldn't have before. Personal and professional things that I feel like will help people and uplift in their day to Day careers, because we all go through things, right? We all have a life. I think we've all realized that since COVID It's not like you have a professional life and you have a personal life and they're two boxes. Oftentimes they cross paths. So you have to be able to share that information to make sure that people know that you're human and also that they can relate to you and realize that, oh, this is happening in their career as well. I can continue moving forward. And that's. That's the goal, you know, really to ensure that you're presenting yourself in a way that you want to present yourself according to your mission and your values and then move forward slowly in that pace.

I love this. This is so great. I wish we had more time, but alas, I was late, so I apologize.

Okay.

But no, this is great. And like I said, the work that you and your team do, it's exceptional. And I'm really glad that you all exist and you're doing this work, work. And you came on the podcast to share your knowledge with my audience. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And before you go, remind the listeners again about your company, some of your big initiatives, and how to get in touch with you.

Sure. So we're 5050 Women on Boards, a nonprofit organization. We launched 50 Women to Watch for Boards this year, so look for that published list. And then we also have educational programs so that if you are looking for ways to advocate for yourself or to figure out how to create your own personal brand, you can find that on our website. And it's ww5050wob.com awesome.

And everybody, we will put links in the description of this episode. Heather, thank you again. This was exceptional.

Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

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