Elevate Your Sales Game: Unlocking Success through Effective Negotiation with Marx Rubino

Hello, my friends, and welcome to another exciting episode of Negotiate Anything. This show is produced by the American Negotiation Institute, and with over 5 million downloads and listeners in over 180 countries, listeners just like you have made this the number one negotiation podcast in the world. Hi, my name is Kwame Christian, and I am the founder and CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. Here at AI, we believe that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. And we are passionate about providing you with the best content that will help you to make your difficult conversations easier, both at work and at home. Lastly, I want to remind you that we offer consulting and conduct trainings both virtually and in person all around the world. Our focus is in three main areas. First, negotiation and conflict resolution. Second, leadership. And lastly, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Check the link in the description below to learn more about how we could work with you and your team. And now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Marks, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks for having me, Kwame. It's going to be a lot of fun and it's a pleasure, brother.

Absolutely, listeners, I wish you could have heard the conversation we were just having. This is great. I kept telling him, hey, Marx, we got to stop. We have to save some of this magic for this interview. So I'm pumped to share this with you guys. So, Marks, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Sure. So I just sold a company that I grew from one of America's no companies to Inc. Founder fastest growing company number 383. Then Inc. 5,000 three times. We sold the most exciting product on the planet, ink and toner business to business which is like toilet paper. Nobody cares unless it breaks in your hands and or you have none and you need some. But we outsold the competition 5 to 1, meaning it would take 5 of their salespeople to sell as much as one of our salespeople soldiers. And the reason we did it was because we have a system. Presentations, overrides, closes, stalling, questions, what have you. But it was changing the mindset from thinking we're salespeople to understanding we're negotiators. And there's a big difference between thinking you're selling something and thinking you're negotiating for something. So we grew it, made myself decade millionaire, financially independent, had a lot of fun. Then I crashed it, lost it all like a dummy, and then rebuilt it the second time. Stronger, faster, better, by using certain key principles. And here we are today with your amazing audience about to hopefully Add some value.

Fantastic. Yeah. And this is great. I know you will add a lot of value to the audience. The men and women here are stellar who are listening, and I can't wait to allow you to take us to the next level. And so, listeners, you know how we usually do it. We have three main topics that we are going to address, and we are abandoning that format for today because I don't want us to restricted. And I think there's so many different directions we could go with the distinction between sales and negotiation. I don't want Marks and his experience to feel too corralled here. So, Marks, I'll just hand it over to you. Where should we start when we're beginning to understand this distinction?

So, like I told you earlier, Kwame, it was. I was doing okay as a salesperson, right? Making an okay living. And, you know, and the mentality, the mindset was, I must convince you of something. Now, if I had to convince you of something, you have this power struggle where you now hold the power over me. You can now dictate how I feel, what I say, what the terms are, because I need something from you. And if I'm needy, then I don't have any persuasive ability. And then I read a book that changed my thinking from, you know, I'm really not a salesperson. I'm much more of a negotiator, which, by the way, is a lot more fun. And it makes the power dynamics equal. I'm no better or more powerful than the other person, but they aren't over me either. And so the change was, it's not, hey, Kwame, would you buy from me? Can I persuade you this? It's. Of course you're going to buy from me. The question is, what, when, at what price, and how do we get the terms? Once I made that shift and I started talking to the individual on the phone as, of course we're going to do a deal if we can negotiate a proper deal. It made me significantly more persuasive, and it took my income from a quarter million dollars a year to over a million dollars a year selling the exact same product. So I believe that negotiation is where it's all at. And in fact, I think Roger Dawson said there is no profession that pays as much as negotiations.

Oh, that's great. I love it. I love it. And, you know, one of the things I really appreciate about this is the simplicity, too, because you talk about very clearly how it created a significant shift, and you can clearly notice the results. The increase in the results there, too, because of that shift. But the shift wasn't too strategic or tactical. It seems like it was all in your mindset.

You know, it's interesting you say that, because when I lost my first fortune, I had to go back and go, what did I do wrong? And I figured that out, by the way. And it's a different conversation. Like, tell me I made a bunch of mistakes. And somebody once said that you're either one or two or three moves away from greatness or disaster. Not five moves, not 10, not 101, two or three. And it was three moves that made me go from hero to zero like that quickly. But as I came back and thought, you know, how did I sort of grow it the first time and what can I do the second time? I was taught by a mentor of mine that as a CEO or a negotiator, any position where you can persuade people, you have a role of three. You're the chief strategist, team builder and chief sales officer, or negotiation officer. But I realized that before those three roles came in was the mindset. And the mindset I define as what do you hold to be true about yourself and others? What do you believe? Right. And if I, as a salesperson, believe that I need something from them, then it changes my behavior and it changes my emotions to one set. If I change that belief, a different mindset, then, hey, they are going to get what I want and I want what they have, and we're going to negotiate it together. Then that allows me to believe and behave in a different way. And so it's a change of going from need to equality. Like you talk, I think you talked about empathy. You used a different word besides empathy in one of your talks.

Compassionate curiosity.

Yeah, compassionate curiosity. Right. So. And that is, I think, turns off the amygdala, turns on the neocortex, as we talked about, and then actually go, huh, that's interesting. That's a change in mindset for you. The techniques will follow if we change the mindset on top. So as people go out in your audience and they think about, you know, what am I? I don't care what if you're an attorney, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, doesn't matter. You're really a negotiator. Everything you do is negotiations. I had, I. We sold the property on Monday, and I had called the Thursday before, and in one conversation, I saved myself $10,000 in 3, 4 minutes, which went in my pocket. And it was a pretty big transaction. But I have the phone and told my kids, who are in their late teens, early 20s. Look, I was on the phone for five minutes. I made $10,000. How great is that? Right? Because a negotiation, and I can give you example after example after example, I signed up for a learning course, something that was supposed to be 1600 bucks. I just asked for a discount. Right, Kwame? And I gave an example, X, Y and Z. And so they gave me a funeral discount. So in one email, say, 500 bucks. Now, do I need the money? Not really. Will I take the money? Absolutely. But it's the fact that we need to understand that we are always negotiating. Now, someone might say, and your audience might agree or disagree with this, is that, you know, Kwame, we hear this whole thing about win, win. And we'll talk about Chris Voss here in a minute about where he really got his information from and why it's lacking. And, you know, I don't want to ask for more than I expect or yada, yada, yada. But hold on a sec. Two things. Why would you ever say no for the other person? Don't rob them of that choice. And secondly, they can always say no if they want to. I teach my kids. It's like, look, when you go to the restaurant, ask for a free dessert. Ask for something. Always ask for more than you expect to get. And they go, dad, why, son? Not because you want to get something. It's because you're practicing the art of negotiating all the time. And they can say no to you. That's okay. That's not a problem, right? But when you get to that big deal, like you had a pretty big, substantial deal a while ago on one of your TED Talks on your business transactions, you're never going to get that deal closed or negotiated if you're not practicing all these tiny little events all the time. That's your mindset, isn't it?

You're absolutely right. And as you were telling it, listeners on the podcast, you probably won't be able to see this, but YouTube, you'll be able to see it. I'm just smiling. I'm just grinning the whole time because I tell people that all the time. Like in my book Finding Confidence and Conflict, I talk about how if you don't have that confidence, it doesn't matter if you know the skills or techniques. It doesn't matter because people can. They can feel that, right? And even if you do, even if they don't feel it right, you're in a situation where you're less likely to ask, too. Like we have to practice that. I still practice that. I'm negotiating million dollar deals regularly. I'm still practicing this thing. Right? And so we have to recognize that it's a skill that we will continue to develop. And really, again, what we're recognizing too, is the interesting psychological dance that's occurring because again, you change your mindset to say, yeah, we're going to do a deal. We're just trying to figure out what that deal is going to be, right? And people can sense that, that confidence. And in every interaction, people are playing roles. And when you come into the conversation too needy and you give away your power to the other side with that simple mindset saying, I need you to agree, people can sense that. And then it creates this alpha beta type of interaction where they can leverage you pretty easily emotionally. And when you put yourself on that same playing field, people respond accordingly.

Agreed. And that's why they say in negotiations, most of the books that you and I have read and people that we've learned from say, be willing to walk away. And what that's really saying is have the mindset. Now, I like to say, you know, he who cares the least gets the most. Right? And because, you know, we. You talked about this on your TED Talk, and I think you're right on the money about the amygdala, right? Being hijacked by Amy and then your cortex. And so now you mentioned three. You mentioned freeze, fight, or flight, but there's actually two more. There's fornicating and feeding, which I'm sure you knew, but why bring it up in the audience, right? So when, when Amy gets triggered, we either eat, we want to go, you know, fornicate, we want to freeze, fight or flight. Well, I don't want Amy, the amygdala being triggered when I'm negotiating, because then that gets me off my game, right? Bruce Lee used to say that if he can get you to react when you're sparring, he now controls you, right? Because he now controls your movement and your emotion. In fact, Bruce had a temper. Bruce Lee had a huge temper. But when he got into a fight, he was always calm until he turned it on, in which case he would do his thing. But he needed to understand that. He needed to calm the amygdala down and be present, be in the zone and be like, okay, well, how do I respond to this? Negotiating is the same thing, right? I want to press your amygdala. I want to. I want to get you to go into the reptilian brain. Because the only way I can get you to take action is if I hit the amygdala. I can't negotiate with you if you're in the neocortex. So I want the opposite response on my amygdala, calm and relaxed. Which is why I do havening and the Wim Hof breathing and all that other stuff. Right. To keep training my amygdala. Which is why Ray Dalio does meditation every single day. Right. So he can train his amygdala to calm down, feel safe, feel relaxed and fake neocortex. But if you look at, for example, the president election, you know, whether or not you love or hate Biden or Trump, it doesn't matter. But when you look at how they perceive and what they're trying to do is they're trying to trigger the amygdala of the same party or the other party.

Yeah.

Once we trigger that, then we can get them, meaning the opposing individual to behave or take action one way or the other. We talked about Chris Voss's book, which is a pretty good book, but it's like an appetizer. Now what made him great was he took these fundamental principles, right? Mirroring, which he doesn't talk about properly, open ended questions and labeling, unlabels, all this stuff, which are just basics and they're really profitable and powerful and he mastered them. So that's a better strategy. But there's so much more left. It was Richard Bandler, John Grinder who started a neuro linguistic program, which was where Tony Robbins got all his deal from, who taught the FBI back in the 1970s. Now Richard Bandler and John Grinder, they were in Santa Cruz and they modeled successful behavior, particularly Milton Erickson was hypnotherapist, Virginia Satir, Fritz Perlman and these were people that were doing therapy. Now in order for you to be persuasive, you have to be a very high persuader if you're doing therapy and you're effective because most therapists are not effective at all. In fact, statistics show that when you go to therapy or don't go to therapy, you're exactly statistically likely to solve your problem or not, in fact, not going to therapy. 6% higher likelihood of not solving your problem. So they found the therapists that were super effective and then they modeled them, which is really just a communication tool. Right. How do we get the other person to behave? Now we now know, and I know I'm going fast because I have to cover in a short period of time. We now know that we rationalize with our neocortex, the decisions we make. But really it's based on our hypnotic suggestion or upbringing or whatever, based on the amygdala or the hippocampus that gets us to behave a certain way. So you as a negotiator, want to find out, how do I not appeal to logic? How do I appeal to that reptilian brain so I get the other person to see it my way or to do it. This is why you'll see scumbags and I won't mention their names. A lot of them wear red suits or were in prison doing stock options, whatever, and they will still be persuasive. And, you know, right. You know what they're saying. You're like, how is this guy saying this to me? But yet, emotionally, it's almost like you can't help yourself because the reptilian brain turns off the neocortex and it starts to affect it. And then look, you know, you make zero actions. Me too. Not everybody, unless we are emotionally connected to it. This is why people know a lot of stuff but don't do much. So negotiation, from my perspective, is how do I hit that amygdala of yours, Right? Which is why FOMO, fear of missing out is such a big thing, right? Because it triggers the amygdala. Now people overuse it. After a while, you sort of get immune to it and whatever have you. But what NLP did, which is what we studied in our sales organization, along with hypnosis, a bunch of other stuff, unconscious restructuring, it taught us to communicate reptilian brain. However you do it in a way that's ethical. There's integrity where there's character, and whether you do what is what you believe to be best for the other individual. If you're in that position, does your.

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To learn more and we will be.

Right back after this.

Right, and so this is the first time we've talked about neuro linguistic programming on the podcast, which I think is a major oversight, honestly, and I want to slow it down a bit and actually break down what it is. So for the people out there who don't know what NLP is, what is it that we're talking about here?

So there's different definitions of nlp, Kwame. There is the definition by the founders originally, which was a communication model. How language, both internal and external, affect yourself and others. Right. So it's a study of language and then they changed it to the study of successful behavior. Meaning if Kwame is a great negotiator, I can then elicit mental strategies Kwame has inside his brain and then copy him and become as good, if or almost as good as Kwame as a negotiator. But really it's a study of language, of subjective experience. Meaning, you know, how does language affect you? Example, if I say dog, what do you think of what comes to your brain?

Think about a four legged mammal with a tail. Usually friendly, but sometimes not.

Okay, I think of my Doberman, right? So because I've got a Doberman named Zeus and I've had one, you know, few shepherds, I used to train for police dogs, blah, blah. So. But the word dog inside your brain has a different interpretation than for me. Now if I said you Doberman, you have to think of Doberman. So you have two different ways of communicating. One is general, which is sort of hypnotic, and one is specific, which is when you elicit information. Example would be, you know, I'm not really happy with the deal you're presenting me, Kwame. Okay, what's specifically about the deal are you not happy with? That's then eliciting them to communicate with me so I can see what's happening inside their brain. But if I was to be persuasive, I'd say, look, this is the best deal you'll ever get. Now I didn't say why or how, but in their brain they then start to go, well why or how is it? And they fill in the blanks. So the amygdala takes over. That's understanding how language patterns work and don't work. Example would be if you look at current President Trump, when he persuades people, he'll say the same thing over and over and over and over again and it'll be very non descriptive, you know, believe me. He'll say believe me all the time, believe me, believe me, believe me, believe me. Those are suggestions or commands that he's throwing out for his audience to believe him. Now, if you're not his audience, it has an opposite response, which means, I don't believe you. I don't believe you, don't believe you. Which is why it's so divisive, Right? Which is why people just adore and love him. Others can't stand him. Right. Because he uses the same language that persuades one group dispersuades or unpersuades another group. So NLP is really about studying the experience that's inside the brain of the individual and then learning how to create that experience for them in a way that allows you to persuade them to where you want them to go. That's sort of the layman's version of it, right?

No, this is great. This is great. And for a book reference for people, because I'm a persuasion nerd, everybody listening knows that. I read a really great book.

Book.

I think it was Scott Adams. I think his name is the person who did it. Yeah, it's called Winning Bigly. It was just an analysis of the persuasive tools of Trump. Whether you like him or not, there are things that you can pull to understand where and how he was persuasive. And so I like the example because repetition is very, very powerful. And so it would have that divisive effect for people who love him, it would work. For people who didn't like him, it wouldn't work. And so when we think about bringing it to our difficult conversations, let's use the example that you gave where we say, this is the best deal that you're going to get. Right. In an adversarial type of negotiation, do we run the risk of it having that same divisive impact?

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a great question because NLP would say, look, you can soften it and say, it seems like this might be the best deal you'll ever get. That's a very sort of, I don't trigger your amygdala, but it kind of goes in there gently and then you get to think about it. But if I want to trigger the amygdala, I would say, look, this is the best deal you're ever going to get. So I think the challenge for the high level negotiator, right, because the beginning negotiator, you know, you want a half a dozen techniques and you want to just master, which is wonderful. But at the high level negotiator, you have to decide, do I want to trigger this person? Don't want to get him off balance. I Want to piss him off? Do I want to make him angry? Don't want to make him sad. So then I can control or reel it in. So it's sort of keeping them off balance. So I would say yes. If you're just a beginning negotiator, then absolutely don't try it. But if you're an advanced negotiator, you have choices. And for me, you know, I'll give you an example. I negotiated a deal, God, two, three years ago. It was a silly little deal, and it was only a few thousand bucks, but I knew the only way I was going to get the other person to move was if I acted angry. Right. Because I wanted them to get afraid of what I might do next to get them off balance. Now, was I angry? Of course I wasn't angry. I was totally in control, but I wanted them to think I was angry, but I knew how to recover. You know, it's kind of like if you're. If you're in mixed martial arts and you drop your lead hand, you're baiting him in. But if you don't have that skill set to counter or evade, you're going to get knocked out. Right? Right. But if you're just starting out, keep your hands up. Right. So if you're just starting out, for sure, don't be adversarial, don't be confrontational. If you've done that enough and you believe that you can, in my opinion, if you can persuade them to get a bit off balance and then bring them back to balance, it's a great technique to use. I'll give you an example. If I say something to an opposing individual that triggers them to be angry or whatever the case may be, I now have the capacity to calm them down, to soothe the amygdala, to open the neocortex. And by doing that, we build an even deeper rapport.

That's fascinating. And you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. It's an expert move. It's risky if you don't know how to do it right. You know, and so it makes a lot of sense. And with the time remaining, I'd love to hear your thoughts on some. Some of the biggest mistakes people make in negotiation. And I know it could be tempting to focus on, like, not listening or something like that.

Right.

The basic level, I want something really advanced, something that people often miss.

So I think, you know, there's. There's one thing since we're talking about nlp. NLP has two terms called uptime and Downtime. So downtime is when you're inside your head, you're thinking, you're talking, you're feeling, you're inside your head. So you know the outside world is not as present for you. Uptime is you have no internal dialogue. You're literally outside paying attention to the other individual and, or the surrounding environment. So right now, for example, I'm in uptime. I'm not in downtime. If I stop to think or I look up, I go into downtime, I process, and then I come back out again. The biggest mistake, there's two that I think. One is people tend to be in downtime. They're not paying attention to what's happening in front of them. They're not getting the sensory acuity, they're not noticing the response or communication has. They're just inside their head. And that's really bad because they might give you a clue, you might ask for something and they might wince a little bit. And you know you've got the right target, but if you're not paying attention, right? So that's one. And second thing is people are afraid to ask for more than they expect to get. It's basic, but it really is. They're uncomfortable. Oh, gee, you know, what are they going to think of me? You know, who cares? You know, you got to have fun. I understand mentally, the dynamics is, you know, we want to please people like you talked about in your TED Talk and want to do all these things. But if you can a, get out of your head and be present and forget all your techniques, by the time that you're negotiating, it's too late, right? You have to already have practiced your techniques and know your techniques. Just let, let it flow. You know, have a good time, be in uptime. And number two is don't be afraid to ask when you expect to get. The worst they can say is no. And then you get to ask again. So I read a study years and years ago, right, when I first started, you know, selling, that the human brain can only say no comfortably five times, and that the average salesperson would take five appointments before they got the sale. So. And because back then the books I'm reading were, you know, appointments in person, I was on the phone, right, Appointments in person. So you go, five visits. One, two, three, four, five. Okay, got. And I thought, well, I'm going to create a little number sheet. I'm going to create eight boxes and I'm going to ask for the order eight times. Now, why eight? Because I'm not that bright. So I'd have to do more than five. I figured three more would be fine. It's the truth. So I would be on the phone, and I'd ask for the order, and they would say no. And I would check that little box, and then I'd say, that's no problem. I'd overwrite. I'd close again. I checked the box. 2, 3, 4, 5. By the third or fourth time I asked, they generally would say yes. Now, they didn't say yes the first time. They didn't say second, third, by fourth or fifth, they'd say yes. And I didn't wait for five phone calls. Right, Kwame? I was like, I'm gonna do them all right now because I don't have time for this.

That's fascinating. That's really interesting. And again, it goes to one of the most important principles of persuasion that people often overlook. It's persistence.

I had a line that I used to say that said the following. Hey, Kwame, I am really sorry if I'm coming off as pushy or. Or I'm trying to persuade you. I'm sorry, but that is not my intent. I really believe in my product and my company. And I know that if you just gave me a shot, you'd understand why I believe that. So how about we do this? Give me a shot on just this many. I'll send them this time. You know, negotiate. Fair enough. And they go, well, you know, I'll tell you what, you know, instead of five, can we do three? I would change the terms every time I ask for the order. Which is why you want to ask for more, ask for X. Because if you don't ask for more, you can't change the terms. Now, if I say, hey, Kwame, buy my lollipop. Buy my lollipop. Buy my lollipop, you're going to smack me in the back of the head. But if I keep changing the offer, buy my lollipop and I'll give you an extra flavor for free. Or I'll discount it. That. Whatever. If I change the offer every time I ask for the order or I ask for you not to negotiate, even though your amygdala still feels the same way, your NEO coaching go, well, you know what? No to this. But this offer I can say yes to. It's completely irrational. But it's the way the brain works, right? Right. So if you ask for more, then you can change the dynamics of the offer. Now, there's something called bracketing, which when I have known about a thousand times, which Is, you know, I asked for this, you asked for this. We're going to meet in the middle. I hate that. Hate it, hate it. That's bargaining, not negotiating, right? So don't ask what you think you're gonna ask. Make the ask so outrageous. In fact, when I teach sales in my for my employees, I always get said, you know, the last one which is ask for the order is get a no. I never want the yes. I always want you to say no to me first. Because until you say no, we're not negotiating. So I don't want, you know, people are afraid of the no. I love the no. It lets me know where you stand. See, if you say yes and every book talks about this, I go, oh, I could have done better, right? Man, I feel like I got cheated on the negotiation because Kwame said yes off the bat. I always, always want you to say no. In fact, I want you to be offended. What? You're out of your frickin mind. No way, dude. Now we can play. Now the real process starts, right? Forget about the presentation that I did. Beginning now, I get to find out what are your needs, what are your wants, what are your desires? And there's three different levels, right? Needs, wants and desires. I got to meet your needs, maybe your wants, maybe your desires. But if I meet your needs, at bare minimum, I'll persuade you. And I have needs, wants and desires too, right? So I want to meet my needs, wants and my desires, not just my needs, but I only want to meet your needs. So until you tell me no and you're offended, now I've triggered that amygdala that I want, that I want sort of showing up to the table, right? Because that's what I'm going to persuade, not your rational brain. So I want you to go, no. Do you have your freaking mind? I'm not going to do that. You're crazy. Now I get happy, I'm calm, I'm relaxed. Now I understand. Okay, great. So now, as long as you don't run away or hit me or whatever, right, I now can begin that negotiation process. And no matter what we end up at, you're going to feel that you won because you went from a no, that was an outrageous demand that he made to, okay, I can live with this. Because that law of contrast, right? Between, gee, he wanted $2 million. There's no way I wanted to give him 300,000. But a million is better than 2 million, right? So I moved you up $700,000. I mean, and the property we Just sold in California. Nobody believed we're going to get. We sold it for $2 million. No one believed we're going to sell for $2 million because the comps in the area showed 1.5, 1.6. What do you think we solved it at Kwame?

$2 million.

Duh. Right, duh. And in the process, Right. I had to teach my agent how to negotiate, you know, and then I called the escrow officer and I said, no, hey, you know, and I build rapport. Then I started looking at the fees and asked for a discount. So she gave me a discount. You know, I was all over the place. And the whole transaction took me. I mean, we had the property on the market for a few months. I probably invested time not going to property and looking at it, five hours of my time and I made a nice return. Right. And every time I pick up the phone or do something, it was instantaneous. Pay for me. Right, right. But I, but, but I would ask for something that made them flinch. Now if they ask me for something, I'm gonna flinch to them. Why are you out of your frickin mind? No way. You're crazy. Because I want them to go, oh no, I'm offended them. I, you know, they're upset, but I'm still calm inside. Right, Right. But I want them to have, I want to trigger that, that amygdala and I want, I know it's the opposite of most people, but I've done, I calculated the other day, I've done over 150,000 transactions closes in my lifetime, you know, selling on the phone, I can do 20, 13, 15 a day. Right. And I know people teach, you know, amazing stuff. From my experience, I want that amygdala to show up to the table because if that shows up to the table, then I could soothe it, I can make it my friend, meaning their amygdala. Right. And I get to play with it. If I do that, then I can persuade them. Nlp, going back to Circle one, just teaches us language patterns of how to help people see things, feel things and hear things inside their mind that then will get them to take action. Because at the end of the day, if we looked at one word for negotiating or selling, it's action. I am, as a persuader, I need you to do something. Whether it's write a check, make a phone call, it doesn't matter what it is. I need you to take action. If I can't get you to physically do something, then I'm not negotiating the right way.

That's right. Well, Marks, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate your time. How can the listeners get in touch with you? Keep up with your work. Just let them know how we can connect.

Well, they can email me@marksarme.com m a r x a r@me.com and you know, most people won't because they just don't hear it. They'll love it. But if somebody needs some help or wants to reach out, I'm happy. I have plenty of time. That's another topic. We can talk about how to achieve more with less. So I will respond to every single email that I get. No problem. I may not be able to help them, but I'll respond and I'll CC you as well so you can see Kwame, you know who I reached out and what about. So you can kind of learn more from your audience if they. They do so.

Fantastic, Marks. Thank you again, my friend. Really appreciate it.

Thank you. But I appreciate you, man. Have a great day.

You too.

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Will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.